Metagame AAA Ubers

[LordBox]

AAA Ubers
​

What is AAA Ubers?
AAA Ubers is Almost Any Ability, but the power level is higher -- threats like Arceus formes and Kyogre roam free!

Sample sets:

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Thunder Wave / Substitute

Regigigas is a fantastic offensive threat, having amazing damage output with STAB Facade. It also possesses amazing utility between great sustain from Poison Heal, and Knock Off + Thunder Wave crippling checks.


Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Supercell Slam

-ate Speed is a terrifying combo and FairyCeus is here to take advantage of that. With Swords Dance in its disposal, it shreds through offensive teams like butter and is a terrifying late-game cleaner.


Corviknight @ Ability Shield
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Defog / U-turn

SV AAA commonplace mon Corviknight is still viable in Ubers. Its typing, passable bulk, and movepool allow it to serve as a useful check to menacing physical threats like Necrozma-DM. Its also one of the few hazard removal options in the tier.

Banlist:

Pokemon

Calyrex-Shadow
Miraidon
Slaking

Abilities

Arena Trap, Comatose, Contrary, Good as Gold, Gorilla Tactics, Huge Power, Illusion, Imposter, Innards Out, Magnet Pull, Moody, Neutralizing Gas, Parental Bond, Pure Power, Shadow Tag, Simple, Stakeout, Speed Boost, Toxic Debris, Water Bubble, Wonder Guard

Moves

Baton Pass

Clauses

Standard OMs, Sleep Move Clause, !Obtainable Abilities, Terastal Clause

Watchlist

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Regigigas
Gorilla Tactics

Codes:

Challenge Code

/challenge [Gen 9] Anything Goes@@@Standard OMs,Sleep Moves Clause,!Obtainable Abilities,Terastal Clause,-Arena Trap,-Comatose,-Contrary,-Good as Gold,-Gorilla Tactics,-Huge Power,-Illusion,-Imposter, -Innards Out,-Magnet Pull,-Moody,-Neutralizing Gas,-Parental Bond,-Pure Power,-Shadow Tag,-Simple,-Stakeout,-Speed Boost,-Toxic Debris,-Water Bubble,-Wonder Guard,-Baton Pass,-Calyrex-Shadow,-Miraidon,-Slaking

Tournament Code

/tour new [Gen 9] Anything Goes,elim,,,[Gen 9] Ubers AAA
/tour rules Standard OMs,Sleep Moves Clause,!Obtainable Abilities,Terastal Clause,-Arena Trap,-Comatose,-Contrary,-Good as Gold,-Gorilla Tactics,-Huge Power,-Illusion,-Imposter, -Innards Out,-Magnet Pull,-Moody,-Neutralizing Gas,-Parental Bond,-Pure Power,-Shadow Tag,-Simple,-Stakeout,-Speed Boost,-Toxic Debris,-Water Bubble,-Wonder Guard,-Baton Pass,-Calyrex-Shadow,-Miraidon,-Slaking
/tour autostart 7
/tour autodq 4

Council:
LordBox
Chessking345
DeepFriedMagikarp

Viability Rankings

Makeshift Viability List

TOP
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane

GOOD
Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Fairy
Arceus-Water
Deoxys-Attack
Eternatus
Groudon
Kyogre
Lunala
Regigigas

DECENT
Arceus
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Steel
Corviknight
Giratina
Ho-Oh
Koraidon
Magearna
Rayquaza
Ribombee
Solgaleo

USEABLE
Arceus-Ghost
Basculegion
Blissey
Calyrex-Ice
Cinderace
Clodsire
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Flutter Mane
Giratina-Origin
Kingambit
Kyurem-Black
Mandibuzz
Meloetta
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Orthworm
Palkia
Palkia-Origin
Raging Bolt
Regieleki
Samurott-Hisui
Skarmory
Slowking
Spiritomb
Ting-Lu

Sample Teams

TBD

 

[cat]

meow ^_^

:3	cat	LordBox	Kinetic
Slaking	BAN	BAN	BAN

Slaking has been banned from AAA Ubers! With an absurd statspread, STAB Facade which went hand in hand with Poison Heal, and Bulk Up to make it even harder to take down while making it harder to switch into, Slaking has proven to be banworthy and overcentralizing in both games and discussion.

 

[cat]

gm! The AAA Ubers council has decided to host a quick survey before AAAPL officially starts to collect opinions on some of the cheesier elements we have in the tier atm.

>>>https://forms.gle/G7yHoEyBZu5gWrbt7<<<

The survey will be closed at around 5 am GMT+0 on the 19th of August, Monday.​

 

[cat]

AAA Ubers Survey Results!​

Average Score: 3.64285714

Magnet Pull got the second lowest score of this survey. Trapping is inherently uncompetitive and problematic so it's not unexpected that it got such a low score.

Average Score: 1.92857143

By far the lowest score of the survey! Last Respects appears to be unhealthy to most of the playerbase with its cheese potential.

Average Score: 5.14285714

With a pretty average score, Unburden seems to be viewed as neither particularly healthy nor unhealthy.

Average Score: 5.571428571

Pretty diverse spread of responses we got. Average points towards Poison Heal being more healthy than unhealthy, but not by much.

Average Score: 4.642857143

Good as Gold leans towards the unhealthier end. With a limited amount of removal in the tier, its no surprise that the ability that shuts off Defog will be more commonly viewed as unhealthy than healthy.

Average Score: 6.285714286

Magic Bounce on the other hand leans more towards the healthier end. With the amount of factors that dissuade hazard removal, not letting them get up in the first place appears to be the best solution.

Other concerns: Deoxys-Attack (2) - Deo-A is the mixed attacker atm, with its ability to "ignore" FurScales by hitting on the opposite end of the spectrum. While it wasn't mention that many times, the council will be watching it closely.
Stakeout (1) - Not much reason to see this being freed since it makes threats even harder to switch into, especially since almost anything can use this.
Regigigas (1) - Similar to Slaking, Regigigas has monstrous stats and amazing synergy with STAB Facade + Poison Heal. Without any form of setup, however, it doesn't appear to have as much of an effect as Slaking did. We will be keeping our eyes on it, however.
Spikes (1) - The lack of good hazard control does have the potential of making entry hazards potentially broken. However, the council would prefer to look at the abilities pushing entry hazards over the edge than the moves themselves.
Substitute (1) -


We then had a vote~

meow ^_^	cat	LordBox	Kinetic	Glory	DeepFriedMagikarp	Result
Last Respects	DNB	BAN	DNB	DNB	ABS	1-3-1 DNB
Magnet Pull	BAN	BAN	BAN	BAN	BAN	5-0-0 BAN

Magnet Pull has been banned from AAA Ubers; Last Respects remains free!

​

Yeah. Trapping is dumb.

Last Respects on the other end.... With more meta developments undergoing, natural answers to Last Respects has started popping out (Regigigas, Arceus-N) while the users tend to not hit hard enough to make them overbearing. We still will be keeping a close eye on Last Respects, however.

You may have noticed that we've added Glory and DeepFriedMagikarp to the council! They've been excellent discussion sparkers and are active builders and players, so give them a warm welcome to the council!

 

[Velcroc]

Tournament Post in thread 'Post-AAAPL II Thread'

Oct 4, 2024

With the talonflames out of AAAPL this season, I thought I would post some teams for AAA Ubers and give some shoutouts. This post has been on the back burner for a while and AAA Ubers stuff is technically supposed to be posted in the OMM Megathread (), so I have been delayed with this post.

Shout out a fairy for drafting me twice in back-back tours, SammyCe123 for telling a fairy to draft me, cat for co-managing and team prep, Gambit_Gamin and BoingK for their support, and FadedCharm for covering me and helping me with prep in the last...

• Velcroc

• 
• 

Check out my post above with team dumps and brief explanations! In this post, I will be covering my opinions on the AAA Ubers Metagame. This post has been influenced by Nat who has shown me the ropes throughout the tour and by Racool's paragraph here which breaks down his thoughts on the meta.

AAA Ubers Metagame thoughts:

I'll preface this by saying that AAA Ubers is pretty centralised around a few key Pokemon and abilities. I don't this solely due to dexxit or a smaller dex, though they do play a role. I'm envisioning what a full dex version of this meta looks like and frankly, it would have a lot of the same faces with similar sets. The biggest upside of a full dex (or hell, even a Gen 8) version of this metagame is that Yveltal would be freed. But there's a catch. Even though Yveltal checks Deo-A decently well and provides additional counterplay to Necrozma Dusk Mane, every team is forced to run an answer to Triage Oblivion Wing sets.

This leads me to my main point: I think that the metagame would be inevitably centralized around a specific threat since there are so many more offensive abilities compared to defensive ones. Gen 9 bumps up this level of power creep since abilities strong like Protean and Libero are legal (albeit nerfed), and with 1 ability Clause, we can't double up on furscales for defense. The dex cuts rob any additional Pokemon that can plug gaps in the builder/meta like what Corv, Mandi and Ting-Lu do.

I'll start with the big three that Racool mentioned: NDM, Miraidon and Deoxys-Attack. I think Miraidon is annoying but manageable. Necrozma Dusk Mane, in my mind, is teetering on being broken but I think we have the tools to keep it at bay. Finally, I think Deo-A should be looked at.



Miraidon sort of forces a Ground-type on every team because you need to block Volt Switch. However, I do think for a Ubers metagame this is an adequate concession to make given that there are multiple viable ground types in the metagame like Groudon, Arceus-Ground, and even Ting-Lu that can stomach hits whilst still volt-blocking + serve a niche beyond Miraidon gatekeeping. Specs Hadron Draco hits incredibly hard, but there are midground in Fairy-types and certain Ice Scales Arceus Formes that can help alleviate the guessing games. I can see why people would find this thing broken, but I'm fine with it right now.



Necrozma Dusk Mane IMO is a lot more polarising mon. I think this Pokemon forces you to be more careful with your fur coat users than Miraidon is with Ice Scales users. NDM has 2 moldy moves with superb coverage in this metagame. A lot of conventional answers like Ho-Oh and Fur Coat Waterceus don't like Photon Geyser and I'm sure this goes the other way around for Sunsteel Strike into dark-types. This is also compounded by the abilities NDM can run like Tinted Lens, SOR, Adaptability, FurScales, Earth Eater, and Well-Baked Body which all further complicate responding to it. I think Ability Shield is an underrated item in this metagame especially on a Pokemon like Corviknight that can be flexible with its item slot. Additionally, I've been seeing comps respond to NDM with techs like Wisp WaterCeus, more physically defensive-inclined grounds, Mandibuzz, and Arceus-Dark. All of these mons check other prominent threats while still providing outs vs NDM.

The thing that's pushing me over the line with NDM is that it's always ahead of the curve. It's far easier to make adjustments to NDM to get ahead of the meta than it is to adjust your team to be sturdier vs NDM.



Deoxys-Attack barely has any switch-ins and the best response I could fine that doesn't burn Ice Scales or an Arceus slot is Regen Vest Magearna. Even then, Protean Low Kick sets annoy the crap out of that mon. Similar story on the offensive end. Either you're staring down Mixed Attacking Protean which can overwhelm a lot of traditional offensive answers like other Regenvest mons, or you;re staring down Psysurge Deo-A which shuts down Rayquaza and E-Killer revenge killing attempts. Deo-A has paper thin defenses which means if you do connect, it's going down. However, I'm not a fan of the way I have to tip-toe around it both in-builder and mid-game. If NDM is XY Xerneas, then Deo-A is more akin to SS Ubers Calyrex. Like yeah, it could be technically balanced, but I'm not a fan of it lol.

Other stuff
I have plans to explore this meta a little more post-AAPL. There are so many awesome poison heal mons and I want to build with all of them. Likewise, I saw some cool Orichalcum mons while prepping. I have an entire box of whacky AAA mons I want to spam the living daylights out of in friendlies or room tours.



Before I list off random stuff, I gotta praise the lawd. Racool mentioned that this is the 2nd best mon. I agree, but I would also argue that Arceus is the best collection of Pokemon in this tier. I would say that having an Arceus is about par with having a FurScales mon on your team. FurScales is a lot broader so it edges Arceus out, but the gap between the two isn't all that much (esp considering you can get away without FurScales for some HO teams - and most of those teams end up having Pixie-killer).

I think the viable Arceuses here are Normal, Fairy, Ghost, Ground, Water, and Dark. I think Fire may have a niche thanks to Orichalchum (which I hope to test) and I'd like to explore Steel sometime to see what's popping. Other than that, the other Arceus forms are outcompeted by a fellow Uber or just suck (Bug/Ice). A lot of the Arceus forms can pull double duty as both an offensive mon and a utility mon which makes it exceptional in patching up holes while not being completely passive -, for example, WaterCeus is incredible versus Rayquaza.

Playing vs some of the less defensively inclined Arceuses is also a gamble. Arceus-Ghost and Arceus-Dark e.g. can easily slot Magic Bounce or Prankster and that has a completely different pool of answers than a FurScale CM'ing Arceus. From Week 2 onward, I tried proofing vs Magic Bounce Arceus by changing the way I play and running techs like Dragon Tail RegenAV Dialga and Psych Up Ho-Oh. Imprison CM Arceus was also a cool tech I saw in some games. I assume Mold Breaker + status could work for teams that can afford to slot it which conveniently nails any random GaG sets as well.



This and Fairy + Normal E-Killer are the tetrarchy that rules over AAA Ubers priority. Bring a gameplan vs these, especially Rayquaza (have a back-up to Corv!).



I think these Pokemon are surprisingly good despite NDM being king in the metagame. Coincidentally, they both have ways to 2HKO or OHKO NDM after setup. Caly OHKOs offensive NDM at +2, while Loaded Dice Technician KyuB can 2HKO at +1.



These two hit hard and have a ton of different sets. Unburden and Hadron engine are perhaps two of the scariest and have completely different modus operandi meaning that you'll have to improvise against these two. Doesn't help both get Psychic + Ghost moldy moves on top of it.



Lots of special attackers I could shout out, but Eternatus is a pretty cool one in this metagame thanks to its blistering speed. Plus it has a pretty diverse pool of moves, sets, and abilities it can choose from. Unburden was a cool set to try out, but Dragon Maw, Beads and MGLO all have their perks as well. Scales is also a nice soft-check to a lot of stuff provided it has the right 4 moves.

 

[Chessking]

Two teams I used in AAAPL are in the post thread here.

Tournament Post in thread 'Post-AAAPL II Thread'

Oct 8, 2024

Dump
I helped with the teams in the earlier weeks but didn't actually like build them so I'll leave them to be dumped by teammates if they want. Dumping the rest of my builder and other metagame stuff in the mashup thread here since that seems to be where we dump those.

W5 - Geysers - Tech KyuB Balance
- V1
- V2
Main idea was to enable Pixiceus...

• Chessking

• 
• 
• 

Pre Tour Teams

Built these teams when the tier first started gaining traction I think around when it was voted to be included. Idt any of these that are still legal following MagPull ban are like any good in the meta but dumping them for completion.

- GaG Arc Stack
Initial thought was removal is even worse in Ubers and so stack seems strong and so does superman. Vanilla Gliscor was definitely solid back then, FC Etern is pretty terrible, GaG Arc is probably still fine now.

- Misty Clod V1
Poison Heal is big, Hadron Mirai is big, so Misty Surge has to be useable. Clod is like the only Ground with recovery that can also run Extender. Own Mirai helps control Misty turns against PH. Lugia is actually awful here but I was looking for a flying PH that doesnt stack Grounds. Both setup guys also like Misty denying burns.

- Mirai + MGLO KyuW
Another mostly superman build. Idea is Mirai forces in Grounds for KyuW to take advantage of. Lunala only hazard weak mon to eliminate NDM/Solg and can trick itself boots. Levi Steelceus is definitely cool by being hazard resilient Arc but unfortunately unlike EE loses to Smack Down. Garg decent mon, will go into details later.

- MPull Groundy + MG KyuB
Groundceus cool trapper since it can't be Volt Switched on, drawback is you can't trap Corv or EE Steels but idt anyone ran that back then. KyuB good partner to take advantage of steels trapped and Corv not being a check. However this was a bad Kyub set, along with other bad sets like the Girao. This also was around when I started using corv more because its pretty decent.

- Flare Flutter Triple Steel
Flare Flutter was a very good set in BH so I wanted to see if it works here. Originally was shadow ball but that turned out to be bad, CM is still outdated as evident later. Regen Mirai is like a pretend Ray and Kyogre check. Triple Steel was weird, Shell Corv is useful to dodge trapping. WASP Steelceus is funny af when it works.

- PH Arc + MPull NDW
PH Arc was looking cool and DTail last sounded promising to anti phaze. NDW also looked cool as a trapper as it had more power than Lunala and has big Prismatic Laser to OHKO Gigas.

- Bounce Double Dance Fairyceus
Very similar structure but with double dance Fairyceus instead with NDW still trapping steels. Charge Beam Mirai is terrible do not use.

- Double Dark
Gambit is cool to check NDM and Gigas and friends. Chople lets it lure low kick Deo. MG Barb Mandi was some cook but I wanted to not take Rocks even if NDM Knocked so here we are. This still had bad Flare Flutter.

- Raging Bolt
Unlike Miraidon, Raging Bolt gets the important Rising Voltage giving it way more power, absolutely mandating Grounds as even the bulkiest Scales get 2HKOed.

- Scarf Ape HO
Attempted to build around Scarf MPull Ape to guarantee eliminate most Steels with Final Gambit, but changed to Regen after MPull got banned. Then stuck on some standard looking offensive mons, with notably the SubEndeavor KyuB.

During Tour Teams

Built these teams after tour started, either using an idea a teammate wanted or something I wanted to mess around with. These teams are all probably somewhat viable unless stated otherwise as they are relatively up to date.

- AS Corv + MG Etern
We wanted an Ability Shield Bouncer so Corv was a very natural idea. Wanted a poison in case of Debris so went with two ideas. MG Etern is probably not very good compared to even stronger sets like DMaw. 3A Pixiceus first appearance here.

- AS Corv + Scales Clod
The other viable Poison was Clod. Steely Spirit NDM is funny when people were using Darks to check it because it just straight up OHKOs I believe. Adamant might be a throw though think you want to outspeed Mirai even with a Clod.

- Boots Mirai Ace
Alternatively to AS Bounce there is Cinderace who has Court Change, and OPulse is also legal so it has that going for it. Running Boots gives up a good amount of power though mainly against bulky resists or FCs.

- OPulse Ho-Oh
OPulse has to be really good and Ho-Oh has to be the best abuser. Gambit is on there for some reason and then Eleceus to check Ho-Oh? The rest of the team is some highly suspicious stuff though like what is Scarf Bounce Lunala LOL.

- Imprison MG Ho-Oh
Ho-Oh gets a very funny move Imprison which denies Recovery from stuff like Arceus and if you are fast enough counter other Ho-Oh. TWave Hex Flutter is so much better than CM because it actually lets you power up your own Hex and you don't get good CM opportunities anyways.

- Imprison VA Ho-Oh
Same idea with Imprison, but Volt Absorb lets it act as a DeoA and Mirai check, two big threats. Kee Berry is there because its a bit more consistent than Bright Powder on the mon that is getting Knocked almost always.

- Misty Offense
I wanted to retry the Misty Surge idea but using it for more offensive purposes to facilitate physical setup. PH Ray was again just because I wanted a PH Flying type but in reality should probably just drop the PH.

- Orthworm
Shed Tail is legal so have to try that, and Orthworm also has enough defenses to try to double as a Gigas/NDM check with IDBP and can spike too.

Sets

These are mostly some interesting less mainline sets. I think theres quite a lot of room for creativity in this tier including for lower BST mons.

Garganacl @ Any Item
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Recover
- Iron Defense / Curse
- Body Press / Stealth Rock / Block

Garg has big bulk and recovery and broken Salt Cure. Its a bit passive sometimes but has enough tools to get by. Can check some pretty big threats like Gigas and Ray.


Flutter Mane @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Pain Split
- Moonblast
- Hex

Actually pretty decent as long as you don't load into like a hard counter like Scales Ho-Oh. Can spread Para and also be very annoying to deal with especially if opponent Scales is a special attacker like Arc. Hex is deceptively strong when boosted. Would recommend pairing with something that can status Groundceus. Can probably also consider alternate ability item combinations as Burn tick and hazard chip can be deadly in certain matchups.


Kingambit @ Shuca Berry / Occa Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Sucker Punch / Metal Burst

Some other options include SD Iron Head to give a bit more offensive presence. Gambit is good, it checks NDM with Foul Play, checks Gigas, can provide Sucker Punch, can check select Ray sets.


Raging Bolt @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderclap
- Volt Switch

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Raging Bolt Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Solgaleo in Electric Terrain: 263-310 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 373-441 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO


Kyurem-Black @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Endeavor
- Substitute

Can be 8 HP evs instead of lowered IVs. I want to say this is the best kyub set. Scale Shot can be useful for like times when DD can't be pulled off and against Kyogre or smth but overall SubEndeavor is able to guarantee certain trades.


Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Supercell Slam

Bricks very hard into neutral FC Arc formes, but EQ destroys non ground-immune NDM and Supercell catches hooh and corv. Speed outspeeds max Ray.


Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Pyro Ball
- Court Change
- Sucker Punch

With the amount of webs people are running this has to not be bad. Sucker is also nice to picking off threats, though SD is an option somewhere.


Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Core
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Destiny Bond
- Dragon Tail
- Poltergeist

I don't think this is by any means the best set and there are probably lots of optimizations but Prank Tina can be a very decent glue to teams as an emergency catch all. Prank Defog can provide clutch removal. DTail in conjunction also lets it phaze out stuff that are planning to dodge Dbond. With max atk and Core boost it also hits rather hard. Other options to consider are Sneak Draco and TWave/Wisp


Orthworm @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shed Tail
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Spikes

Worm.


Arceus-Electric @ Zap Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Calm Mind

Just a generic CM Arc set but Eleceus is pretty underrated. Checks Ray checks Photonless NDM checks Gigas as it can't be paraed. BoltBeam is annoying to switch into and in CM wars Bolt has a bit more PP and nice para chance compared to judgment.


People need to start consider running this on Ribombee. Theres like no faster Taunt outside of Miraidon which isn't the most common and doesn't want to eat Moonblast anyways. Thus sash guaranteeds Webs go up anyways and it frees up Moldy for an offensive teammate which is pretty valuable. Also opponent might be confused when they see no Moldy announced and try to go to their Bouncer only for webs to be set anyways.

This tier was very cool and fun to pick up build and play. It has some centralization but I don't think its as bad as people make it out to be. There are centralizing threats as with all tiers especially Ubers based ones but majority are handleable with a diverse enough pool of answers, and there is a deep pool of underexplored nicher mons/sets that can fulfill viable roles. Kind of a shame that its probably going to be dead until next AAAPL rolls around because I think there is a lot of development potential as a balanced and competitive meta that looks nothing like regular AAA.

Tiering-wise I think the main standouts are obviously DeoA, NDM, Mirai, and FurScales.
DeoA is so strong and fast but in practice its a lot easier to deny progress than on paper. With Protean proc its rk and 2HKO potential is immense but because of new Protean it feels highly prediction reliant for a Life Orb recoil taking mon and if hazards can be maintained its ability to come in multiple times is severely limited. There are also several harder checks and soft checks available on top of some revenge-killing methods despite type changes. Could maybe be looked at later on but I think its fine rn.
NDM is like really really good and splashable and should probably be on most teams with how it can pick an ability and spread to fit any role. Offensive ones are the main questionable ones but it has a few issues. 77 is really slow and if you want to run boosting ability boosting item DD sets you need to give up Adamant if you want to outspeed Mirai at +1, and sets like Unburden give up a lot of power and are risking stuff like Foul Play and Wisp. Without 3A its also never going to be threatening enough to teams with proper countermeasures due to limited coverage and so you have to drop the defensive utility and without any defensive evs or ability its bulk is actually not that great in this tier and combined with the speed makes managing the health important. It does get to pick and choose a lot of its checks with its specific set which is kind of nuts but it also forfeits a significant number of different matchups and people slap on several soft checks to it anyways on teams.
Mirai is something I actually think should be removed. Hadron gives it so much raw power without any other investment and with the Speed tier it practically forces SpD Grounds or Volt Absorbs on teams and these mons while still fine individually are still mostly run for this specific mon. Boots EDrift Draco Volt U-turn with maybe Taunt slashed somewhere is a very basic set that is consistently threatening and warping. Unlike the other two mons above the checks to this are a lot more linear and specific and I personally don't think its healthy. Utility Mirai sets are kind of cool to check some stuff but is nothing valuable to the tier, esp when compared to like NDM.
FurScales setup is kind of nuts but the abilities also hold the meta together so like what are you going to do. Maybe there will be innovation for counterplay in the future. Setup in general as well is kinda of crazy when power level is really naturally high so stuff like Unaware become less appealing and there is nothing like Imposter to hold them back lol.
In terms of any potential unbans the only one I would like to see considered is Gorilla Tactics. We already have strong boosting abilities like OriPulse and SoR, and the bulk of the tier's current physical attackers are generally setup based. It could add some more offensive variety which idk if its a good thing here but if its not broken it probably shouldn't be on the banlist.
Also Clas PLEASE link the AAAUbers post in post 2 thanks.

 

[cat]

gm! With the conclusion of AAAPL, the AAA Ubers will be hosting a survey for about a week.

>>>>Survey Link<<<<​

 

[cat]

gm im not late at all

AAA Ubers Survey Results!
we had 9 responses this time; a shame we couldnt get more, but 9 is a sufficient number.

Average: 6.555555556

Pretty high number! Goes without saying that most players think that the tier is in a pretty good state right now.

Average: 7.333333333


Same as above; most people do enjoy the meta right now so thats great.

Average: 5.222222222

A low score compared to the most of the other elements the survey had, Miraidon has been under fire as a threat who basically mandates a Ground-type on every team, commonly with Ice Scales.

Average: 4.666666667


The lowest score in the survey, Deoxys-A has been a threat for a long time coming with its pressuring mixed capabilities and good coverage, taking advantage of how many walls in the tier tend to be one-sided in their walling capabilities and smacking threats that can oppose its mixed coverage with Protean-boosted super effective moves.

ndm: 6.888888889


A pretty average score compared to the other elements, Necrozma-DM provides a great blend of defense and offense at the same time. However, its signature moves are what makes it controversial, with Sunsteel Strike and Photon Geyser bypassing Fur Coat and Unaware, allowing setup variants to quickly spiral out of control.

Fur Coat Average: 7.111111111
Ice Scales Average: 7.777777778

Grouping these two together, while some do think that FurScales pushes bulky setup users like Calm Mind + Fur Coat Arceus formes over the limit, many think that FurScales is a healthy element necessary for the tier due to the higher power level.

Average: 7

Magic Bounce is certainly a controversial ability, as seen by the extreme range of values. Many do think that it is unhealthy that attempting to make progress can be punished with just a switch, especially with how versatile Magic Bounce is, making it hard to expect who the Magic Bounce user is, if there even is a user on the opposing team. Nevertheless, its high score shows that most players think that it is a healthy element for the tier.

Average: 5.666666667

The third lowest score in the survey, Toxic Debris has been noted as unhealthy with the lack of good Poison-types in the tier - only Eternatus makes the cut as a viable Poison-type. Toxic Debris allows the user to punish the opposing team without notice, and with the offensive nature of the tier allowing poison to limit the offensive capabilities of many threats, it shouldnt come as a surprise that Toxic Debris received a pretty low score.

Average: 7.333333333

A pretty high score, Lunala takes advantage of its high Special Attack and Moongeist Beam to bypass Ice Scales and serve as a potent wallbreaker. Its high score that show that most think it is healthy for the tier, however.

With a 66.7% support rate, the council definitely had to vote on it... if the very competent TL actually remembered about it....


Other comments!

> Free Gorilla Tactics,
no

> species clause


With that said, the council decided to have a vote:

	cat	Glory	DFM	LordBox	Result
Miraidon	BAN	DNB	BAN	DNB	2-2-0 DNB
Deoxys-A	BAN	DNB	DNB	DNB	1-3-0 DNB
Toxic Debris	ABS	DNB	BAN	DNB	1-1-2 DNB

In other news:

Kinetic has stepped down from the Council! We thank you for your service and wish you the best for your future endeavors.


We are accepting Sample Team submissions! We will be looking through the Post-AAAPL thread for teams, but feel free to post them here to submit your team!

A VR is on the way! Now that AAAPL is over, we have a rough gauge of what mons are good and where they stand.

the nac vote will be out as soon if we have enough agreements and when we have the votes.

 

[cat]

update on the nac vote:

	cat	LordBox	Glory	DFM	Chessking
NAC	Implement	Do Not Implement	Implement	Implement	Do Not Implement	3-2-0 Implement

No Ability Clause has been implemented in AAA Ubers!

You may notice that we've gone back to 5 council members; we've invited Chessking345 to the council! Their insight and passion for the tier will be undoubtedly important for future tiering.

 

[Atha]

So when are we banning Magic Bounce ? CM Idef Bounce Arceus has shown to be pretty ridiculous in AAAPL ; but Arceus is not the only mon that can potentially do that (NDW, Magearna, CP Etern/Lunala/Solgaleo). This is without considering the unhealthy aspect of hazards mindgames allowed by Magic Bounce - which makes me think Good As Gold should also be banned, behaving basically the same as Bounce in terms of allowing powerful cheesy sets.

 

[AM]

Team is out, teams I used for the weeks I played as they were when I loaded. Ray can be fire blast instead of Overheat on second one, maybe DeoS needs to be jolly on that one, the NDM can be SOR Life Orb on the Webs but I spooked myself minutes before the game to load Fur Coat for NDM, only to load into no NDM Stall from FC (lol...). I did build a lot of teams but only posting the ones I used.

https://pokepast.es/e33617306d337719
https://pokepast.es/3f9e9def33449aae
https://pokepast.es/33f89544ecc1f8d0

Tier could be better, it's conceptually cool, but is too match up fishy. Too many various things to account with MBouncers, NDM (arguably biggest offender of matchup issues), Miraidon, Arc Variations, Unburden, Rando PH mons, etc. Solution imo is either to ban some of this stuff but the sentiment on discord didn't seem very keen on booting anything.

Dont think the No Ability Clause helped with anything besides make offensive and some fat cores a bit better? Would prefer to just bring back an Ability Clause of some sort if none of the above mentioned isn't going to get the boot. Stuff is very difficult to prep for when the offensive mons are already so strong to begin, then on top of stacking abilities.

I have some other various meta thoughts but this is much longer of a yap than I wanted truthfully so I'll just leave it there. Thanks to Jrdn for all the tests for the weeks I played and in general (helped most the slots), Kinetic Betticus IV too for picking up, even though getting baited to pay 13000 for 0-3 is a cruel joke from the universe. lol...

 

[UT]

AAAPL TEAMDUMP:

AAAUBERS:

https://pokepast.es/ee5cef11fa1c042d

Built this with Glory long before the tour even started and picked up a win week 1, was pretty cool.


https://pokepast.es/ef9b52b673a4d732

used this ChessKing team week 2 (I did not build this) and got some unfortunate luck with para but it happens.

https://pokepast.es/6700439b63f59de0

Loaded an altered Glory team week 3. Really misplayed from what I remember and lost.

https://pokepast.es/7164c66756a3910b

Built this for week 4, most most of my test games and scrapped it for this:https://pokepast.es/8c52655701b5d26a Which RL loaded and won with.

Built this for week 5 for RL:

https://pokepast.es/67fd4655403389fc

They of course won the week cuz my builds are cracked even with the opponent having moldy Miraidon.

We got a little more unorthodox in the penultimate week, built this for RL.

https://pokepast.es/fa9f7d60f4cffbce

I was really feeling va flutter again and bounce felt easy to fit on the team since dfm loves twaves, orthworm also felt like an easy pick since sub is valuable on any offensive team but especially against someone who spams twave. Fire arc was originally waterceus but I decided that with orichalcum pulse solg that I wanted something else, I wanted to still resist sunsteel while not being fighting weak so fc fireceus was born. Sor Korai was just because I felt a fast guy with sd behind sub has to go crazy.

 

[UT]

AAAUbers



I tried to make some balance structures work since last year most of my builds were offense-oriented. I really like the core that I came up with, being able to handle most of the offensive threats while providing good utility like hazard, removal and phasing. Deo-A is just the best breakers on these type of structures and it ended up putting a lot of work in both of the games. A cool set that I want to highlight is unaware Eternatus. I feel like offensive unaware is very underexplored and Eternatus is the best user I was able to think off, being able to handle a lot of cm Arceus stuff and other set up threats.


This team is an edit of another team I made last year. Webs fells turbo broken to me because most mons dont run boots in a tier with magic bounce. The only changes I made was putting unaware Etern bc I love that guy and changing the Arceus set to a cheesy cm set bc magic bounce is broken.


Wanted to make rain work somehow since Kyogre feels really strong and no one is running primal weather. I ended up with a weird structure for rain which is more like Kyogre + two breakers that are now fast. It was too weak to webs however so i will probably need to change Arceus to Giratina or smth.


Speaking of less-used structures, screens. I feel like screens have to be broken in a Ubers format but somehow I havent seen more people use it. With it, I could get away with stuff like ph Arceus and fc Miraidon, who cant die under screens and have dtail to deal with phasers. I also have Mewtwo which is one of my personal favorite. Lo moldy can breaks a lot of common answer like NDM or Ho-oh. Also the return of red card tdebris Groudon which is less of a breaker and more of a utility mon.

 

[Chessking]

Some pre-AAAPL stuff...

Good as Gold and Toxic Debris are banned unanimously!

Good as Gold's capability in denying the bulk of setup counterplay options including options that worked against Magic Bounce, while also denying Defog in a tier that already struggles with hazard removal, was deemed to be not worth keeping around in the tier.

Toxic Debris is viewed as a significant matchup fish in a tier with very limited viable Poison-types and removal, even with the existence of abilities like Poison Heal.

---

Some other elements we discussed were:
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: NDM has been brought up before due to its incredible offensive potential thanks to Moldy moves in a tier dictated by FurScales defensively. It has warped defensive teambuilding to an extent with Fur Coat resists, Foul Play Dark-types, Ability Shield, and even alternatives like Intimidate being considered. However, its defensive capabilities in soft checking numerous threats in the tier is useful to an extent. This is one of the highest elements on our watchlist.

Deoxys-Attack: Deo-A is one of the best attackers in the tier with its potent Protean set, with very limited checks. However its in game potential is less due to requiring more precise reads due to mechanics of Protean, and can often be maneuvered with soft checks to take advantage of the one-time type change and stat drops, as well as a severe frailty to priority.

Miraidon: Miraidon running its vanilla ability has a warping teambuilder effect in almost necessitating bulky Electric-immunes on any non-HO team to not crumble. However due to not enough sampling we will keep this on the watchlist.

Magic Bounce: Bounce has been brought up primarily for its ability to deny anti-setup measures such as Eternatus Toxic and phazing with Whirlwind/Roar, with some other concerns around the hazard games. Currently we think that there are lack of sufficient exploration around the setup-anti-setup game. Fairyceus was one of the more common users last year, but it was easily stifled by the number 1 Pokemon NDM even with ID, and non-Fairy types are vulnerable to Dragon Tail, and this also does not include other methods like Unaware. We also believe Bounce to be useful in facilitating the hazard game with the very limited removal options we have.

Unburden: Unburden has had utilization on HOs with Pokemon like Air Balloon NDM and Power Herb Lunala + Eternatus, as well as some Terrain Seed usage. We think that HO is not standout in terms of power level right now and Unburden users in particular can feel the drawback of not having an power boosting ability at times.

Gorilla Tactics: Gorilla Tactics has been floated as a possible unban. Mostly due to the bulk of physical attackers in the tier not particularly wanting to be choice-locked + having the alternative of Orichalcum Pulse already existing. We have refrained from freeing it right now though due to it likely pushing NDM over the edge, and as mentioned we want to monitor its position first.

We elected to be more conservative with tiering due to other elements being less clear cut, partially due to last year's games not having enough sample size for several of these with the large amount of HO teams brought (to limited success). We strongly encourage discussion regarding any standout elements during AAAPL (discord thread link) and will be open to making quick actions.

 

[Chessking]

Some mid-AAAPL stuff...

We banned Miraidon!

Mandating Scales Ground-types (literally 100% Groudon usage most of which are Ice Scales) or Electric Immunity Steel/Fairy types (stuff like Arceus-Steel and maybe Flutter Mane which are not used due to mostly being lesser in viability) is severely restricting in the builder, something we do not find healthy. We hope this ban will help increase some building variety.

---

Some other elements we discussed in council and the discord thread were:
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: NDM has been brought up again due to its polarizing offensive potential, with usage of Ability Shield Fur Coats entirely for it (Ability Shield can exist on other stuff like Bounce and Scales but those aren't NDM checks) and still being lacklustre checks sometimes. However players seem to find its defensive potential useful, and there are arguments where it does not have the easiest opportunities to setup due to its low speed, and it has some moderate case of not being able to run everything at once ranging from moves to ability to item to EVs.

Regigigas: Regigigas has proven to be a very potent long game wincon by just grinding through everything with Facade Knock Off and Thunder Wave, while not even considering the option of Substitute for PP stalling. It also has a fine matchup in faster games by trading with its big bulk. We do think that it has more consistent answers that haven't been explored as much (such as defensive Ghosts/Steels not susceptible to TWave), example being the PH Giratina brought today, and it hasn't been as polarizing as the other two. Poison Heal will only be considered if both Regigigas and one more Pokemon end up banned due to it, as then alongside Slaking it clears the mark to consider the ability instead.

Magic Bounce: Bounce has been brought up again for reasons similar to before, with one difference being a sharp reduction in Fairyceus sets. We still its existence is useful given the very limited removal we have, and we also think a lot of issues with Bounce and hazards seem to be with hazard setters that are on the passive side. In particular, with Miraidon's ban we could see an increase in offensive potential of Groudon sets to be able to pressure Bouncers much more effectively.

Gorilla Tactics: Just like before, with NDM remaining in the tier we will not be freeing Gorilla Tactics. However we are moderately-strongly considering freeing it should the former be banned. If there are strong oppositions please let us know.

For most of these we also were open to the idea of holding off any action to see the impact Miraidon ban has first. As usual we strongly encourage discussion regarding any standout elements during AAAPL (discord thread link) and will be open to making quick actions.

 

[Fc]

can we ban something good please. Who cares if you're forced to use scales mons they're really good as is and completely stonewall miraidon, it literally makes no progress. This is ubers if something has complete counters it's not gonna be broken, and there are multiple things that beat miraidon + good revenge killers with deoxys korai etc. I genuinely have seen no issue with mirai and have seen no one take issue with it, I would not even have it as a top 10 mon probably. I don't really get this and I feel like there should be more open discussion before action, since the order and actions haven't made much sense. Toxic debris was a good ban since it was stupid but good as gold is legit just a worse magic bounce, there's 1.5 defoggers and you barely need to defog in this tier anyway. Magic bounce removes interaction for half the game and forces a 50/50 on literally every turn while also making you guess what has it before the game starts. By far the most unhealthy thing, idk why it keeps getting skipped for mediocre picks like I literally don't think I ever used or faced good as gold and would never want to use it over bounce. Again it's literally just for defog which is only relevant in the corv / almost non-existent gira vs deo HO mu where spikes go up, but there are so many tools for vs that.

I think magic bounce needs to go for this tier to have any semblance of reliability in game, and regigigas is also absurdly broken but idk maybe it can stay. It actually just muscles through checks like corv and twaves all the fur coat stuff then spams moves forever, I would see it gone before basically everything else. Free miraidon and player surveys.

 

[Chessking]

For clarification

I genuinely have seen no issue with mirai and have seen no one take issue with it, I would not even have it as a top 10 mon probably. I don't really get this and I feel like there should be more open discussion before action, since the order and actions haven't made much sense.

Miraidon ban was a majority opinion after discussing with teams and their respective players/builders. Council identified it as a potential problem and we consulted players before banning. This is also why NDM is not banned, it was similarly discussed and a non-minority found it acceptable and would like to see further testing with the Miraidon ban.

Magic bounce removes interaction for half the game and forces a 50/50 on literally every turn while also making you guess what has it before the game starts. By far the most unhealthy thing, idk why it keeps getting skipped for mediocre picks like I literally don't think I ever used or faced good as gold and would never want to use it over bounce. Again it's literally just for defog which is only relevant in the corv / almost non-existent gira vs deo HO mu where spikes go up, but there are so many tools for vs that.

So I did actually consult with members of your team to find out what elements your team had issues with and knew about both. Magic Bounce we do not acknowledge as completely healthy, but there is an opinion that people are having issues with Bounce while running passive hazard setters like Scales SpD Groudon without boosting, and so not only are there options to combat Bounce to make it more favourable than "50/50" but also with Miraidon being higher priority (partially due to a Bounce ban having more broad impact including negatives) and banning it opens up freedom in more offensive spreads on Groudon, different ability usage for better setting capability, or even just different setters in general now that it is less mandatory. Thus we wanted to take time to see the impact Mirai ban has regarding the hazards game first.
also, the other complaint about bounce made during this week was a unsupported line for the TTTech vs Pokemh game where a Groudon went for rocks t2 against a team with both Lunala and Waterceus both potential bouncers having good mu into Groudon (and the team 100% has a bouncer on preview) + Tech knowing the team or something.

regigigas is also absurdly broken but idk maybe it can stay. It actually just muscles through checks like corv and twaves all the fur coat stuff then spams moves forever, I would see it gone before basically everything else.

As mentioned prior post Regigigas is on the list of stuff we discussed. Gigas has not been as polarizing + people have not really respected the mon particularly early on, and in recent games there has been more acknowledgement of the Pokemon with checks that dont outright get crippled by twave, so we would similarly like to see some more games before taking action.
basically everything else is currently being monitored and follow up actions in short term shouldnt be unexpected

 

[Betticus IV]

Speaking as an individual and spectator, I think magic bounce has shown it is not compatible with this tier. The only significant change we have seen in the Groudon ability slot is it going from scales -> moldy, with this not even being enough as many magic bouncers can freely slot on things like ability shield to negate this. Bounce in conjunction with pheal has turned games into absolute slogs as people realize structures that do not set hazards and aim to wear the opponent down via pp stalling are not as bad as they seem. I do not see how both bounce and pheal can be legal in this tier at the same time, as they both negate progress too effortlessly and make games much more drawn out than they should be. Council should look to getting rid of one of these abilities before play-offs (though lets be honest pheal would be much more bearable if one could actually set hazards, so imo bounce should be looked at first).

 

[Chessking]

I can see why people find Bounce to be a problem, it certainly isn't the cleanest element there is and has its fair share of problems, but I am of the opinion that Bounce is both necessary and not that much of an evil, at least based on the games and teams we have seen so far.
I'll try to keep it point form to not be chunky to read.

Necessity
Shit removal - Our total list of viable removers is both Giras and Corv. Mandi is unviable without high Deo-A and offensive Ghost usage and still faces competition, Tusk and Treads need an ability like Scrappy or -ate to spin on the ridiculously bulky Ghosts we have (Arceus, Lunala, Giratina) but they also need defensive abilities to have any utility. Court Change is unreliable and OPulse Cinder is niche at best.
Bounce extremely important to balance hazard game and actually give a half measure for teams that do not want to commit to the passive options of Corv and Giratina.

Infinite hazards - Without Bounce, stuff like PH Groudon and Regen Mage would just be able to vomit out hazards without any care of needing a more offensive set to pressure, and with abilities like PH and Regen they don't care about passive stuff like Corv and Gira. Defog has less PP than hazards -> hazards stay up easily.

Further limiting offensive mons - Ease of getting up multiple layers of hazards adds even more pressure to offensive breakers, everything is encouraged to either be PH or Boots. Choice items etc face significant opportunity cost to run. Such sets are on a quick timer to try to get anything done. If you are already complaining about games being drawn out consider what would happen when offensive pressure gets nerfed even more and teams either trend even fatter on longevity between PH and Regen, or trend on the other extreme with the kinds of HOs we saw last year.

Increase matchup fish - Any breakers become more polarizing in matchups with the limited opportunities they have. Hazards being limited allows skilled positioning to find repeated entry opportunities and knowing when to tank hazards vs removing.

We have seen what happens when Spikes become trivial to set up, see the many tiers that had to limit Ceaseless Edge distribution.

Is Bounce actually even a problem?
The momentum shift - The biggest problem I see with Bounce also happens to be why I think it is so necessary: lack of removal. Lack of easily splashable removal -> more punishing when hazards are bounced. If you don't have removal those hazards are permanent, if you do commit to the few foggers you have to go to them and click Defog, not even Spin btw.

Not a 50/50 - People often call the interaction of "do they go Bounce or check" a 50/50 which I find disingenuous. For proactive hazard setters (more on this later), opponent getting turn right reward is bounced hazards, but turn wrong is a dead Bouncer, the risk reward is disproportionate, a 50/50 is equal results for both sides. Yes theres still going to be predicts/mindgames, but this is mons those always exist.

Use proactive setters - This is the problem I have with this whole "Bounce is completely shutting down hazards" talk, passive setters being punished by bounce is fine. Every tier that has prevalent Bounce has adapted with proactive setters able to pressure bounce users. Pre-SV BH tiers have hazards on their Poison Heal mons like Xern and Gigas or their high offensive capability mons like Red Orb Groudon and Shedinja, SV MnM has stuff like Garg and offensive Tusk and multi-coverage Mage. Even for tiers without Bounce, we saw many rockers have ways of pressuring the common Defog users with methods like setup or Toxic.

Effect of Miraidon ban - Pre Mirai ban, everyone was running bulky Ice Scales Groudon running movesets like Blades Double Hazard Wisp and we wonder why Bounce is hard countering these sets. Post ban we've started seeing sets like Moldy, which is not even fully committal to counter Bounce considering Fur Coat exists. Something like PH with SD Blades Rock move hazard is nearly impossible to bounce. We saw today Regen Mage sneaking spikes in vs Bounce because it has infinite longevity unlike Bounce.

Hazards are still going up? - At least with the way people are building. If hazards were easily deniable we surely would see more of stuff like Deo-A, Ray, Tech Kyub, Specs Bolt, all powerful breakers with vulnerabilities to hazards, but we've instead just seen 1 team with Specs Etern and 1 team with DeoA. This goes into...

Games are slogs because of teams used - People are loading the fattest teams possible with the slowest/laziest (Gigas and pray) wincons ofc the games are going 100+ turns. This is a good time to look at the 4 games so far as well and also see how Bounce is present in each:

Pokemh vs Codename C.A.T
Pokemh has 2 setup wincons and a hazard vomit Don. Don set was fine that week, not very ideal now with Ability Shield Corvs running around.
Codename C.A.T pretty aggressive team, SFLO Etern + looks like band Korai, hazard is on passive NDM not getting rocks up against some common Bouncers used like Corv and Waterceus.
Bounce does not exist in this game. We did see Regen Defog Gira-O.

Fc vs TTTech
Fc has Specs I think DMaw Etern and a gigas, but Etern runs into literally max SpD Scales NDM and gigas has a bounce corv and fc ghosty to deal with. No signs of hazards.
TTTech has a Gigas and a Scarf Kyogre + 2 setup guys. Theres not a lot of offensive pressure here. Similar double hazard Don.
Bounce only impact bouncing Gigas TWave, but Bounce Corv is a poor Gigas check anyways. Game goes on forever bc lack of offensive pressure on both sides (Specs Maw Etern is fine but it ran into hard counter)

Quinn vs Fragments
Quinn has Gigas + Scarf SoR NDM + setup guy. Similar double hazard Don.
Fragments has Protean Deo + Gigas + PH Don + DD Sor Lum NDM, very offensive team. No hazards shown imagine its on Don.
Bounce only impact bouncing Gigas TWave. Unlike Corv Ghostceus is a better check though.

TTTech vs Quinn G1
TTTech literally loads stall in a tier with multi PH and Regen and only has Rocks on a mono Judg Fairyceus.
Quinn has SD PH Don, Gigas, and a CM guy. Spikes on Regen Mage, which can get bounced easily but VoltBeam is not the worst at punishing bouncers switching in, and Regen outlasts.
Bounce has impact, with both Corvs bouncing hazards multiple times in the almost 600 turn game. But TTTech could've had his way of hazards going up if Fairyceus had CM or another attack last, and Quinn's Mage lost risky predicts several times it did get bounced. If Quinn's Groudon had a hazard over Protect it also gets that up fairly likely even into Bounce Corv.
Game obviously lasts 600 turns into tie because TTTech's team has no intent on winning vs PH and Regen, while Quinn's team had every half offensive mon walled.

TLDR: I don't think based on the games we've seen that Bounce is shown to be a problem and if anything theres a lot of lazy copy pasting of sets and stuff. The other element you brought up, PH, actually has more to claim from these games though also seems fine at the time being.
Personally speaking for all of the following, I also think going back to the necessity part that I would not want to ban Bounce unless its for the non-hazards focused setup stuff but those seem to have fallen off as mentioned before. If developments happen such that Bounce + AShield is cringe and annoying I genuinely would rather ban AShield and then Dusk Mane than Bounce. If we had the playerbase and interest I would be down for a trial tour without Bounce and see how it is but that is never happening unless we actually do an AAA circuit @ betticus?

 

[AM]

I did a lot of the testing with Maxomega and discussion with cat on the Leaves but please just ban Magic Bounce and Regigigas, and then let's go from there and see how things play out. While I appreciate the long and very in depth analysis above, this is stuff that is so much easier to say in hindsight after the fact the games are played and its predicated on one opinion that isn't solely fact, which I think is making tiering and the discussion of it detrimental long term for possible development.

The Miraidon ban was okay in the fact we dont have to dedicate something specific to check it but I agreed with FC's earlier opinion that this mon wasn't even like a top 10 issue or mon in the format, maybe more so an annoyance that now removing it we don't need to account for. It is likely, again an opinion, the reason Miraidon was even considered an issue now rather than last PL was because everyone is loading Balance that Miraidon could possibly prey on. The tier was already moving away from offense in the later stages of the previous PL due to things like Gigas and being easier to handle NDM with balance/bulky offense.

Everything else such as Bounce being necessary to keep hazard game not to be a Spikes fest, is largely speculative. One of the issues is things are being developed at a snails paste because the "meta" is pretty much the PL only, so people are throwing things at a wall to see what sticks. While people are quick to adapt to what's meta I don't think it's fair to analyze games and building in such a rigid manner when there's very few, if any, real patented structures and probably won't be for quite awhile until we remove some elements.

I'm going to repeat some of the things I said last time in the last PL. The tier is too fishy, we did ban some elements that contributed to that but Bounce was a ban that needed to be in conjunction with Good as Gold because the issue was the combination of both of them as well as individually. I also think we should go back to 1AC, I said this last time to, it would make building a bit more thoughtful even if No AC isn't the end of the world. If an AAA Ubers circuit or "suspect" trial tour is run it only makes sense to do this with Bounce/Regigigas banned prior (real ban) with NDM being the suspect or trial tour (no NDM). NDM is the hardest mon to prep for due to the 10+ ways you can tech it but out of all the speculation here NDM does have defensive traits that are useful to account for specific things. It would be better to see what tier would like without the mon.

 

[ghostlike]

I just want to briefly mention some arguments that havent been brought up in this discussion:
- For all the talk about how few hazard removers this tier has, there are even less hazard setters somehow. Groudon is basically the only viable hazard setter in the tier as other options such as Arceus or NDM are fringe at best since they have better set to run or they cant really threaten bouncers effectively. Because of that, saying banning magic bounce will unleash "infinite hazard" upon the tier is purely speculative. Maybe the ban will bring the rise of other hazard setters but that is also just a speculation.
- If we proceed with the ban, there are still ways to deal with hazard that doesnt force every team to run Corv or Tina. Defensive mons like Etern, Groudon or Lunala can easily afford to run boots while offensive mons like Deo-A or Koraidon also likes having the ability the pivot in with hazard up. This doesnt instantly skew the meta toward offensive or defensive but rather it will help balance the meta. Overbearing offensive threats like Deo-A or Miraidon will now be punished for using greedy offensive items like LO or specs while stall team will now have to think twice before bringing double PH and stall the game to infinity. Also MG is a perfectly good ability, it's just underutilized since magic bounce is so broken.