OM ADV 200

[Shing]

Just wanna post some resources for ADV200 LC to make it visible for everyone. Banned move list is taken from the pastebin in front page, and I've marked those that are noticeable to the mons. Let me know if there's something I missed since I did for fun as I'm not involved in council or anything sort of that.



Banned:

Banned Move List

Abra - Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam, Double-edge, Counter, Seismic Toss, Mimic, Metronome, Dream Eater, Thunder Wave, Substitute, Dynamic Punch, Psych Up, Snore, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Barrier

Anorith - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Rapid Spin

Aron - Mimic, Rock Slide, Substitute, Rollout, Snore, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Defense Curl, Fury Cutter

Azurill – Body Slam, Double-Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Rollout, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Mud-Slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift, Defense Curl

Bagon - Body Slam, Endure, Fury Cutter, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rock Slide, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Baltoy - Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Endure, Mimic, Psych Up, Rock Slide, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Barboach - Double-Edge, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Swagger

Cacnea - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Endure, Mega Punch, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Seismic Toss, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swords Dance, Thunder Punch

Carvanha - Double-Edge, Endure, Fury Cutter, Icy Wind, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Skeep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swift

Chinchou - Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Clamperl - Double-Edge, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Confuse Ray

Corphish - Counter, Double-Edge, Endure, Fury Cutter, Icy Wind, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Doduo - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swift, Faint Attack, Flail

Duskull - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Psych Up, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Pain Split

Electrike – Body Slam, Double-Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Endure, Mud-Slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk

Feebas - Double-Edge, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Geodude – Body Slam, Counter, Seismic Toss, Mimic, Metronome, Substitute, Dynamic Punch, Snore, Endure, Mud-slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Fire Punch, Mega Punch

Goldeen – Double-Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Swagger, Swift, Psybeam, Haze

Grimer - Body Slam, DynamicPunch, Endure, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, ThunderPunch

Gulpin - Body Slam, Counter, Defense Curl, Double-Edge, Dynamic Punch, Endure, Explosion, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, ThunderPunch, Pain Split

Horsea - Double-Edge, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swift

Igglybuff - Body Slam, Counter, Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Endure, Icy Wind, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Psych Up, Seismic Toss, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Thunder Wave, Perish Song, Present, Wish

Lileep - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Psych Up, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Lotad – Swords Dance, Body Slam, Double Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk

Machop – Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Mimic, Metronome, Substitute, Snore, Endure, Mud-slap, Ice Punch, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Thunderpunch, Fire Punch, Rolling Kick

Magnemite - Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Rollout, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Makuhita – Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Mimic, Metronome, Rock Slide, Substitute, Snore, Mud-slap, Ice Punch, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Thunderpunch, Fire Punch

Meditite – Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Counter, Seismic Toss, Mimic, Metronome, Dream Eater, Substitute, Snore, Endure, Mud-slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift,

Mudkip – Body Slam, Double Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Rollout, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Defense Curl

Natu - Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Endure, Mimic, Psych Up, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swift, Thunder Wave, Faint Attack, Featherdance

Nincada – Double-edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Fury Cutter

Numel - Endure, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rock Slide, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Oddish - Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swords Dance

Phanpy - Double-Edge, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rock Slide, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Swagger

Pichu - Body Slam, Counter, Defense Curl, Double-Edge, Endure, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Seismic Toss, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swift, Thunder Wave, Present, Wish

Poocheyena – Psych Up, Snore, Endure, Mud-slap, Sleep Talk, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Counter, Mimic, Substitute

Psyduck - Body Slam, Counter, Double-Edge, Dynamic Punch, Endure, Ice Punch, Icy Wind, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Seismic Toss, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swift, Cross Chop

Ralts – Body Slam, Double-Edge, Mimic, Thunder Wave, Substitute, Psych Up, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Mud-slap, Ice Punch, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Defense Curl, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch

Rhyhorn - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Sandshrew - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Dynamic Punch, Endure, Fury Cutter, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Seismic Toss, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Metal Claw

Seedot – Swords Dance, Body Slam, Double Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Rollout, Snore, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Defense Curl

Shroomish – Swords Dance, Body Slam, Double-edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Endure, Sleep Talk

Shuppet - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Psych Up, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Thunder Wave

Skitty – Body Slam, Mimic, Dream Eater, Thunder Wave, Rollout, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Mud-Slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift, Defense Curl, Wish

Slakoth – Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Double-edge, Seismic Toss, Mimic, Rock Slide, Substitute, Dynamic Punch, Icy Wind, Endure, Mud-slap, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch, Fire Punch, Fury Cutter

Slugma - Defense Curl, Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Heat Wave

Snorunt - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Spheal - Double-Edge, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Swagger

Spoink - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Swagger, Swift

Staryu - Double-Edge, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Psych Up, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Thunder Wave

Surskit – Double-Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Psych Up, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift

Swablu - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Dream Eater, Endure, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Psych Up, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swift

Taillow – Double-Edge, Counter, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Endure, Mud-slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift

Tentacool – Swords Dance, Double-edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Aurora Beam, Rapid Spin, Haze

Torchic - Snore, Mud-slap, Sleep Talk, Swift, Mega Punch, Swords Dance, Mega Kick, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Seismic Toss, Mimic, Substitute

Trapinch - Body Slam, Double-Edge, Endure, Mimic, Mud-Slap, Rock Slide, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger

Treecko – Dynamic Punch, Snore, Endure, Mud-Slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift, Thunder Punch, Mega Punch, Swords Dance, Mega Kick, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Counter, Seismic Toss, Mimic, Substitute

Voltorb - Endure, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Thunder Wave

Vulpix - Body Slam, Double Edge, Endure, Mimic, Sleep Talk, Snore, Substitute, Swagger, Swift, Spite

Wailmer - Body Slam, Defense Curl, Endure, Icy Wind, Mimic, Self-Destruct, Substitute

Whismur – Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam, Double-Edge, Counter, Seismic Toss, Mimic, Substitute, Dynamic Punch, Rollout, Psych Up, Icy Wind, Endure, Mud-Slap, Ice Punch, Defense Curl, Thunderpunch, Fire Punch

Wingull – Double Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Mud-slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift

Wurmple

Zigzagoon – Body Slam, Double-Edge, Extreme Speed, Mimic, Thunder Wave, Rollout, Snore, Icy Wind, Endure, Mud-Slap, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift, Defense Curl, Fury Cutter

Zubat – Double-Edge, Mimic, Substitute, Snore, Endure, Swagger, Sleep Talk, Swift, Faint Attack, Whirlwind, Curse

Noticeable differences from ADVLC and ADVLC200(besides the removal of mons)
- Only Skitty, Spoink, and Zigzagoon learns Substitute
- Only Makuhita, Nincada, Phanpy, and Torchic learns Endure
- Only Snorunt learns Icy Wind
- Bagon is the only noticeable Pokémon that learns Double-Edge
- Anorith, Lileep, and Machop are the only noticeable ones that learns Rock Slide
- Only Chinchou, Elektrike, Magnemite, and Pichu learns Thunder Wave
- Only Baltoy, Geodude, Koffing, and Voltorb learns Self-Destruct
- Only Baltoy, Geodude, Grimer, Koffing, Seedot, and Voltorb learns Explosion
- Only Baltoy, Sandshrew, and Staryu learns Rapid Spin
- Liechi Berry is the only stat-boosted Berry, making Endure + Salac Berry non-existent.


Similarities between ADVLC and ADVLC200
- Thief is still widespread
- Toxic is still widespread
- Abra, Anorith, Bagon, Cacnea, Chinchou, Lileep, Koffing, Oddish, Staryu, and Snorunt are the only ADVLC-ranked mons that received minimal nerfs at worst.

 

[Fell the Woods]

Where are games for this metagame played? It looks fun.

 

[Sylveon HRT]

Where are games for this metagame played? It looks fun.

Hiya, most of the stuff that happens with this meta is on this Discord
https://discord.gg/2UsKNtfVu

 

[FrankMarley]

Why did ADV 200 LC Fail?
Ever since ADV 200's ladder ended, the meta has gone into a bit of a dry spell. While UUBL has been very popular for nearly 2 months now with consistent engagement and meta development, ADV 200 has gone silent. Although the ADV 200 LC tourney started before UUBL really got its steam back, it felt like a way to get some interest back in the format. Unfortunately, the tournament took a bit of a somber turn.

ADV 200 LC hasn't had a game played in over a month, putting the tourney in limbo. The metagame overall hasn't done super well, and I'm going to be bold enough to go on record and say it's because of Meditite and Abra overcentralizing the whole thing (the various players claim it's real life events but I suspect it's lack of motivation to play the meta). Even before the tourney ran, a few players predicted Meditite and Abra would be a problem, but quickbanning them was decided against (the reasoning behind it was to not assume anything was broken or overpowered beforehand, and to use the tourney as a way to find evidence for whatever could be broken). As the tournament stays in limbo, it can be readily said in hindsight that yes, Abra and Meditite are completely unhealthy and banworthy.

Abra
Before the tourney, Abra was a mon I was especially concerned about. Although similar to Alakazam in ADV 200 proper, Abra sets itself apart by actually outspeeding everything except Voltorb specifically. If that wasn't enough (the rich are never satisfied), Abra also has the highest base special attack of the LC mons, and a wide movepool with tons of innate coverage. Although there is egg move incompatibility, Abra's choice of elemental punches or encore really lets it accomplish some evil things. Compound this with the fact that there's almost no good special checks; If the options for special checks were shallow in ADV 200 proper, they're basically a puddle here. The most robust special check is probably duskull. Outside of that, the best option for dealing with Abra is usually running priorty. Fake out is rare, but quick attack is fairly common. Abra's Achilles' heel is the poor defenses; 1-2 hits and it dies. This effectively forces teams to run lots of priorty and usually forces running duskull and/or voltorb.

Meditite
A few players sounded the alarm on this mon, but for the most part I thought Abra would be the bigger problem. I was so, extremely wrong. There is a very, very good reason this monster is banned in Gen 3 LC proper. Meditite can reach an absolutely monstrous 28 attack stat. For reference, the second-highest unboosted attack stat is Trapinch at 19. As one can imagine, having an attack stat nearly 50% higher than the second-highest attack stat causes massive problems; Return deals 50% minimum, to Koffing, Unbanded. The most defensive Duskull set is still OHKO'd by shadow ball 31% of the time; Again, Unbanded. LC has a fair share of defensive checks normally, but all these checks just evaporate to Meditite's absurd damage output. Compound this with the fact that ADV 200 LC has no intimidate mons, and that Meditite also has plenty of great coverage of its own (including priority in the form of fake out) and Meditite has easily come out the winner of ADV 200 LC. The best way to deal with an enemy Meditite is to sack a mon of your own and bring in your own Meditite to revenge kill. No switch ins, no checks, only Meditite.
Note: Shing wanted to add some extra context: "...Meditite can't be killed in a single hit in most occassions, while it can OHKO almost everyone at once. It has actually a very weird defensive typing that most super effective moves aren't really common besides shadow ball, which is also limited. The thing with meditite IMO is that - it['s] being able to kill most things at once, but really difficult to remove it when it's at full health."

Meta Impact
ADV 200 LC ended up more centralized than Ubers did, somehow, and that had a near 100% Latios usage. And unlike some metagames, the centralization was very unhealthy. You almost had to run certain mons to deal with these two, and could expect your gameplan to fail anyways. Dealing with CM Abra or CB Meditite is suffocating, and resulted in teams ending up pretty same-y.

Conclusion
Although negative, a lot of ADV 200 LC actually is quite fun and interesting. Mons like Spoink end up being useful due to having substitute (only 3 mons have substite and Spoink is the best of them), or Skitty being the only Baton Passer (outside of Meditite who does not really want to be running BP). Mons like DD Bagon were considered, or Anorith (who, along with Cradily, have the highest BST of any mon in LC). All this to say that there's a lot of fun teambuilding and gameplay potential to be found in this, that's just being overshadowed. I truly believe that with these monsters out of the way, ADV 200 LC will turn into an actually fun metagame to build, play, and spectate. I think ADV 200 LC is worth being given another chance, and I hope a renewed discussion on the topic will occur someday.

 

[Shing]

For what it's worth, Celdanami's wish was to finish the tournament without the option to change the meta, which is why there haven't been any mid-tournament bans. See it as a way to see how people play and adapt to broken things, and to reflect on how people played in that time. It's most likely that once the tournament is done, both Meditite and Abra will be banned from the tier. For the claim part, the tournament was mostly a fun side tournament on Discord, where people like me had low priority to take care of. I mean, in round 2, there was no deadline, so people could really decide when they wanted to play, and that often ends up with people just forgetting about a small tournament like that. Obviously, there were some unseen situations, such as Celdanami leaving without notice, but really, ADV 200 LC is a very niche on a niche tier like ADV 200, so it's not a shocker that people would delay it. I'll say tho, the tournament hasn't stopped, and we will finish this :)

Just some quick comments on Abra and Meditite. Meditite just has too much coverage to approach against the entire tier from only one set, where it has many different sets that do the same effect. The best counterplay was just bringing bulky fast mons like Anorith and Chinchou that outspeed it, and create long-term progress even if they can't kill Meditite with Knock Off on the former, and T-wave on the latter. Well, against non-CB sets, which can hypothetically exist. It just has too much offense, and it's difficult to kill it when it's capable of tanking most things at full health, and it has such an absurd hit-and-run playstyle. Abra is less broken, but still too much as it has the sets that respond majority of the tier, and the best counterplay to it is either Voltorb Light Screen, which doesn't really stop Abra at all. Or Carvanha or Pooch, which the former loses to T-Punch, and Pooch can get overwhelmed by Spikes, and it's just very easy to switch in vs Pooch and then get easy momentum out of it. It's just really too difficult to stop it as an endgame sweeper.

ADV LC 200, on its own actually a very interactive meta that I've enjoyed due to the lack of overtuned moves such as Sub, Endure, and the dynamics are more straightforward, but it has its depth in managing bulk with Sitrus and planning your sequences in the long term. It can definitely be a very skill-focused tier, especially with no Meditite and Abra on the field. The only thing I may not like is probably the limitation of it, but that's just how ADV 200 will be. The tier is very enjoyable, and I'll probably play it again if there's another tournament, whenever I have the time for mons, though.

Either way, just wanted to speak out my thoughts since I had some time to spare.

 

[Celdanami]

Notable Hits on Dusclops

I'm gonna drop a few things I know bout the meta before I fly off again, so, tadah~. It's rough out there with no real pursuit threats, so here are the lines spinners take to break Dusclops. Below is a big range in clops' EVs.

Starmie:
3 Spikes- 252+ SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Dusclops: 113-133 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Mystic Water - 252+ SpA Mystic Water Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Dusclops: 123-145 (43.3 - 51%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Claydol:
Non CB- 216+ Atk Claydol Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Dusclops: 98-116 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO
3 spikes -216+ Atk Choice Band Claydol Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Dusclops: 117-138 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes
No Spikes -216+ Atk Choice Band Claydol Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Dusclops: 127-150 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, Claydol needs choice band to overwhelm Dusclops, or heal bell support to go the distance.

Donphan:
3 Spikes- 252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Dusclops: 107-126 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Dusclops: 117-138 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Choice Band- 252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Dusclops: 158-187 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No Spikes: 252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Dusclops: 107-126 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Note: Donphan may also run foresight, allowing it to bypass Dusclop's defences

 

[FrankMarley]

I don't think the wider playerbase fully knows about this yet. Before any tiering action can be done, I think people really need to be made aware of just how powerful gorebyss is first.

Gorebyss
Nearly half a year later, I think it's worth revisiting Gorebyss, the elephant in the tier in regards to hype vs results.
Gorebyss has, in theory, everything. Good special attack, outspeeding the tier in rain, and there being little to no special checks, at least not good ones. Even the strongest special checks seem to die to in 3 hits from hydro pump.

So... why did Gorebyss go 3-9 in the Roa Tournament? A 25% winrate is a terrible result for a mon that was advertised as being extremely scary.
This is something that I feel needs to be addressed; Was Gorebyss unfairly fearmongered, or was it used improperly?

Well, I want to take a look at Gorebyss' losses and analyze what exactly caused Gorebyss' winrate.
The games to analyze:
- Eternal Blitzy vs Melninja: In this game, Gorebyss actually contributes fairly to its team by eliminating a lead gyarados. The problem is that it sets up rain for the enemies' Kingdra, causing Melninja to lose momentum.
- Trash Insect vs Loneling: For its first turn in, Gorebyss ends up taunted, preventing it from going on a sweep. On its second turn in, Gorebyss uses ice beam to predict a switchin, but gets the predict incorrect. On its third turn in, it gets outsped by Flygon and ohko'd.
- Celdanami vs Ticktackplays (G1): Gorebyss comes in with 1 turn of rain support, but unfortunately gets answered by previously unrevealed Milotic. It comes in later on a Dusclops, Dealing ~50% to clops before going down.
- Celdanami vs Ticktackplays (G2): Gorebyss comes in on +1 Gyarados, sets up rain, eliminates Gyara, Magneton, and a Mence, before going down to a Metagross. Gorebyss did just about everything right in this game, but it came in after most of the team had already gone down.
- Waffleztastegood vs leoperi99: After getting a turn of protect stalled, Gorebyss switches out in the face of Lanturn (most Gorebyss sets run HP elec and have no good options for Lanturn). It comes in later only to get OHKOd by Starmie.
- Melninja vs KiraUBD: Gorebyss survives a clutch Medicham hit, gets a crit on Milotic, and likely would've taken the game if not for Kira running Regice alongside Milotic. Sadly, despite this great opening, Melninja failed to cinch the whole game since Metagross and Regice were able to stop the followup special threats.
- Melninja vs Fiishing: Gorebyss starts out strong, eliminating a lead gyarados. However, just like with Melninja's earlier set vs Eternal Blitzy, Kingdra comes in to take advantage of the rain.
- Waffleztastesgood vs GabrielLopez: Gorebyss comes in while Gabriel is already losing, hoping to reverse the momentum on Dusclops. Gorebyss sets up the rain, but unfortunately, Dusclops stalls a turn with protect, and Garde survives a hit and forces Garde out (with trace, Garde outspeeds Gorebyss). This is probably one of the nastiest examples of a counterteam I've seen yet; Wafflez happened to have both protect Dusclops and Gardevoir.
- SurfnWob vs Aurist: Gorebyss comes in on already existing rain, chunking skarm for ~72%. However, on the turn it sets the rain back up, Gardevoir comes in. Garde gets a CM and KOs Gorebyss.

About half these Gorebyss were leads (4 were leads, 5 were not), and about half were on spikes teams (5 on spikes teams, 4 on spikeless; 1 Skarmory, 1 Glalie, 4 Roselia).

Now, I think it's also worthwhile to compare this to the 3 games where Gorebyss was on a winning team:
- Celdanami vs Meth Master: Gorebyss here does practically nothing. It comes in, takes a pert earthquake, sets up rain, then dies to another pert earthquake. The rain ended up being irrelevant for the rest of the game. This is probably Gorebyss' worst showing (but its teammates still won).
- Miradon vs GabrielLopez: Gorebyss gets a lucky dodge against T1 hypnosis. This allows it to set up rain and sweep, taking out Dusclops, Metagross, and chunking Swampert. Even better, Gorebyss rain is inherited by Kingdra, who continues the madness for a victory. This is probably Gorebyss' best showing (notably, the opponent had no rain answer whatsoever).
- Miradon vs DDJoe: Gorebyss switches out against Regice T1. But after the Regice teammate sets up rain and explodes, Gorebyss comes in and eliminates the Regice. Sadly, a protect Magneton forces Gorebyss out once again. An exploding Electrode allows Gorebyss to come right back in, which thuds into a Milotic. Gorebyss doesn't come back in, as Gyarados cleans through half of DDJoe's team. This might be the most

Of these games, only one of them is a spikes game (Celdanami's, using Glalie). Both of Mira's games use Gorebyss as a lead.

Analysis (Open to interpretation)
Gorebyss has a lot of tempting advantages, but a lot of more subtle disadvantages. Gorebyss is rather frail, and quite slow outside of rain. As well, its bad matchups are particularly bad; The rise of rain answers meant thudding into Regice/Milotic teams was not entirely uncommon. This meant that a lot of Gorebyss' praise ended up being inapplicable since people ran checks.

Quite frankly, Gorebyss definitely got far more praise than it deserved, and its praise inspired people to run it on offense; this was a mistake. See, Gorebyss kind of wants a lot of support and a very specific teamstyle to survive on; Hyper Offense. Note that Miradon supplemented Gorebyss with Rain Dance Regice and Rain Dance Electrode; With support, Gorebyss was somehow able to get value against a team with Regice/Protect Magneton/Milotic.

This is likely what separates Gorebyss from its friend, Kingdra. While Kingdra can function on a wide variety of teams and get success (10-8 record in the same tournament), Gorebyss requires a very specific teamstyle and highly specific support. Kingdra proves the fears of the rain meta are not entirely unfounded, but it looks different from what we anticipated.

Is Gorebyss good? Sure. Should it be feared? Absolutely, if you don't have a Gorebyss check, you are asking to lose. But it's something to use very sparingly. If ADV 200 ever gets another ladder or tourney, I would expect Gorebyss to drop in usage to reflect the ideas and concepts listed here.

Further Viewing/Source:
For those interested in further info: The RoA tourney's usage stats and replays can be found on this spreadsheet. It carries with it some interesting stats and insights for those that want to do analysis like this!

I hope this was a good read, and I hope those that used Gorebyss in tourney don't feel like I decieved them by saying Gorebyss is good.

 

[FrankMarley]

A rough start, input welcome!

Couple on the radar:
drop tales, yama/other fighter
Plusle UUBL
Duskull Banette swap
If anyone sees a way for uu to readily handle kadabra, homie could be freed from limbo

View attachment 793230

Bro forgot Deoxys isn't in ADV 200 (tbf so did I)

Notably, this list is very much disputed atm. NU and PU are murky since we don't even really know what's good in UU.
The OU/BL/UU list is also still in debate.
Significantly, disputes over allowing speedpass are also still around.

 

[Celdanami]

Calcs, EVs, Set Suggestions

Regice
If your Regice is your sole special sponge, and you don't have any supplemental support like Gardevoir or Light Screen Milotic, these EVs are relevant. Note: You can cheat the SPDF nature if you run Protect.

252+ SpA 30 IVs Mystic Water Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Regice in Rain: 143-169 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA 30 IVs Mystic Water Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Regice in Rain: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Dusclops
Dusclops really wants full SPDF EVs.

252+ SpA Mystic Water Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops: 119-141 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops: 86-102 (30.2 - 35.9%) -- 41.4% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Skarmory & Magneton
Offensive Skarmory is viable in this tier due to Magneton's viability. This means a couple things:

1. Bulky Magneton lives HP ground: 252+ Atk Skarmory Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Skarmory Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Soft Sand Skarmory Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Magneton: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (use these mag evs for magdol)
2. Soft Sand Skarmory is not insane 252+ Atk Soft Sand Skarmory Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
3. Ultimately, Magneton can run even bulkier EVs, guaranteeing its utility in both MUs: 252+ Atk Soft Sand Skarmory Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Magneton: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4. However, Skarmory can HP ground on the switch, and then outspeed bulkier Magneton.

Because they speed tie, however, it gets a little awkward. Timid Magneton does not KO SPDF Skarmory, and Jolly Offensive Skarmory does not KO bulky Magneton, even with Soft Sand. In my opinion, this makes Magdol an excellent structure.

Alakazam
Running 304 HP Zam, usually with cm encore/recover psychic/fire punch, lets the squishy mon live quite a few hits. Dusclops' Shadow Ball is a good benchmark to show that this Zam will comfortably live most non-CB neutral hits.

36 Atk Dusclops Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[mielke]

A rough start, input welcome!

Couple on the radar:
drop tales, yama/other fighter
Plusle UUBL
Duskull Banette swap
If anyone sees a way for uu to readily handle kadabra, homie could be freed from limbo

View attachment 793230

dude tiers are tiered based on usage, not by vibes

 

[miraaa]

dude tiers are tiered based on usage, not by vibes
more testing needed is an understatement, we'll see how the revival tour shapes out in terms of usage rates and see how that shakes things up. as for the formation of the lower tiers, it seems best to go from there first fs

 

[FrankMarley]

dude tiers are tiered based on usage, not by vibes

Well... back when ADV was the current tier, it was tiered based on vibes, not usage. And since ADV 200 is trying to emulate RS as accurately as possible, it makes sense that we should emulate the tiering style as well

 

[FrankMarley]

Events, Pokemon Box, and ADV 200
Disclaimer: This is written by someone who is fairly biased.

Intro
So, ADV 200 has a little identity crisis at the moment. When the format got a ladder back in May, it was noted that many important errors persisted; Firered/Leafgreen exclusive moves, Tutor Moves, and Illegal Chainbreeding options were all commonplace. But in trying to remove these options, a fairly important point was brought up;

What is ADV 200, really?
It seems fairly simple at first, it's a competitive format containing only resources available in Ruby or Sapphire. But of course, fairly relevant questions can be brought up in response; What about events? Very shortly after the releases of Ruby and Sapphire in Japan, a distribution event occurred in Japan as a 5 year anniversary celebration of the Pokemon Center in Tokyo; This event legalized wish Gardevoir, wish Salamence, wish Minun, amongst others. Since this event happened only shortly after the release of Ruby and Sapphire, and doesn't introduce any new Pokemon, should it be legal? Although a little confusing, a quick decision had to be made since the ladders was live, so the answer picked was "yes".

So where's the line? Well, the hardest and fairest line would be Jirachi. ADV 200 should be ADV 200, not 201 (this is a fairly non-controversial statement). So any event that occurred at or after the release of Jirachi (the first event Pokemon released in Gen 3) is off the table. At the time, it was believed Jirachi was first distributed on June 1st 2003 in Japan, the same day Pokemon Box released (more on this in a moment), so the date picked was May 30th 2003 as the cutoff. And this has caused some headache and confusion in explaining, but it has remained this way since May.

Well, it was only very recently that miraaa, our resident tier leader, did a little snooping and discovered that Pokemon Box released on May 30th 2003 (me and those discussing legality missed this somehow), meaning that Pokemon Box qualifies for the cutoff period. In fact, Jirachi apparently started being fully distributed June 21st 2003, leaving a much wider distribution timeline than initially expected (although it appears nothing significant happened between June 1st and June 21st, so this wouldn't legalize anything else). This has ramifications because it calls into question how ADV is defined.

But what even is Pokemon Box?
Pokemon Box: Ruby and Sapphire is functionally speaking, an accessory for the Pokemon Gamecube, although it masquerades as a game. Very few copies sold outside of Japan, making them highly valuable today. Using Pokemon Box, you could transfer mons from Pokemon Ruby or Sapphire (and later, Firered, Leafgreen, and Emerald) to be stored for later (maybe the devs thought 14 boxes with 30 mons per box wasn't enough storage space?). Now, this is relevant because if you deposited enough Pokemon, you would be rewarded with special eggs that hatched into Pokemon with exclusive moves:

• False Swipe Swablu
• Pay Day Skitty
• Surf Pichu
• Extreme Speed Zigzagoon

So although Pokemon Box is fairly obscure and barely even a video game, it has serious ramification for competitive mons (as you'd know if you ever faced a Linoone on Gen 3 OU ladder). And now, there's a real argument to be made for legalizing these Pokemon Box eggs.

The question of identity
This really reintroduces the question of what ADV 200 is. After all, there is a non-insignificant portion of the playerbase that wishes for a day 1 meta (banning the wish eggs). Should ADV 200 be defined as the day 1 meta? Should it include every event up until the release of Jirachi? Does Pokemon Box count under this logic? There's a legitimate question being floated here, and I feel like it should be addressed at some point.
Considering that there is a concurrent tournament running, I propose a community-wide vote be held at the culmination of said tournament to see what the community believes is appropriate.

My bias, if anyone cares:

My Biased Opinion

I find Day 1 to be the most logical concept, at least to me. However, the wish eggs did add a lot of positive meta impact and almost single-handedly enable slower teams to function. Legalizing Box sounds quite worrisome to me as it would enable Extremespeed Linoone to cause massive damage to all (Linoone already possesses Belly Drum). Nevertheless, I have incorrectly predicted meta impacts and metas before, so I could be wrong about the damage Linoone could pose.

 

[miraaa]

I should've posted this a while ago, but I am announcing I am stepping down as tier leader and giving the role to Sylveon HRT. I hope the tier continues to develop more overtime.

 

[Sylveon HRT]

Due to community demand, ADV 200 will be returning to the day 1 format for the foreseeable future, meaning that there will be no Wish on Salamence or Gardevoir.

 

[FrankMarley]

Due to community demand, ADV 200 will be returning to the day 1 format for the foreseeable future, meaning that there will be no Wish on Salamence or Gardevoir.

To be specific, the Eon Ticket and Wish Egg events will be rescinded.

This means that Gardevoir, Salamence, Raichu, and Absol lose wish (as well as their secondary event moves, charm, iron defense, teeter dance, and spite, respectively).

Pichu is important to note, since Pikachu/Raichu can pass down wish to a ton of other mons. Reverting this change means Girafarig, Plusle, Minun, Spinda, and Delcatty will lose wish.

 

[jimmy the card]

Allow Latias and Latios in ADV200 with roaming IV glitch factored in.

Someone was ahead of their time. It's the polling tier, why not poll it?