first team links to a gen 9 DOU replay lolHey everyone, there's been a lot of discussion over this tier recently and I have a lot to say in response. I recently became decently obsessed with this tier in derby after over a year of touch-and-go interest, occasionally passing ideas or teams to players like AIRedzone and NinjaSnapple but not much playing it myself. During derby I had the absolute pleasure of supporting oopsgtg with test games and really started putting some of my ideas to good use, and I ended up being rewarded more often than not. My experience in derby lead me to sign up for VDL which I finished with a 6-2 record; and I have a whole lot to say about this metagame and how my perception of it has shifted in the last 3 months.
To be forward, I think ADV DOU is actually in a good place right now with solid archetype variety and balance, but it remains DOU's most mechanically flawed main generation format. I think years of comfort loads and a general air of mickeyness have discouraged a lot of people from really engaging with the format and builder, creating a false perception of the tier at large. There are multiple pokemon that have been overused for months while others have been undervalued and underexplored, with entire strategies like Sand chipstuffs dragon dance offense and bulky curse bruiser teams seeing very little gameplay from my perspective. AIRedzone 's above post on rain is a fantastic in-depth look at the archetype and how it can push hyperoffense forward in this tier and I will try to elaborate on certain structures in a similar vein here.
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Ok so I was going to do a full teamdump and detail the building process and decision making behind said teams. I WAS going to shed light on how I think about building this tier and whatnot. But I typed up the VR stuff first and then my life went to shit. I've been sick, working, and managing DPL so most of my mons time has been very occupied; as such all I can offer is a quick skim of my good teams, rather than a full teamtour dump.
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- One of many teams centered around sub meta + sand chip. tyranitar is an excellent Paralysis spreader alongside zapdos, coming in on Tauros normal moves or flying/fire moves aimed at meta/ludi and clicking away. Marowak assists with the zapdos matchup while flying gyara removes opposing ludicolo, metagross can consistently sub up and fish for paras/attack boosts to clean games.
Other Ttar + Steel stuff:
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Icy wind Restcune
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Fatass registeel + DD tyranitar wincon. Sceptile helps remove regirock/grounds/damage waters and leer is a good option to help muscle past stuff.
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Flexible 6 that can have zap lead instead and fire punch over tbolt on jirachi for more neutral coverage. Tbolt rachi + this ludi set target suicune super hard, gengar skill swap can make rachi unkillable.
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Fake out lead, Swampert as the Marowak/regirock breaker for ttar, also good into Metagross. Salamence breaks down celebi for the lead duo and provides flying intim to help protect the sand duo, can run hydro pump to hit marowak/regirock harder.
As you can see these teams really benefit from a consistent water types to remove Marowak to enable twave spreading. Ludicolo is an excellent candidate enabling setup and sitting on rain teams the best, but gyarados and swampert have their place as well.
Rain:
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Blissey
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Wisp is an incredible tool for enabling blissey, and moltres is an amazing clicker, fully walling the standard agility metagross set that plagues Blissey while having morning sun to recover in non-weather matchups and great damage output with fire STAB. Reflect celebi also helps enable blissey setup and marowak takes rock/electric hits for moltres and gyarados. This maro should be way bulkier nowadays sinc eI made this team awhile ago but it's a solid core that lets CM Blissey thrive.
gyarawak zapros slop with ttar and chip blissey. Kinda mid but can't really be bad.
The rest: https://pokepast.es/60caf4663a324aef
sorry I got lazy
VIABILITY RANKINGS DISCUSSION
Zapdos' dominance in this format is such that its spot as number 1 has become self-evident. But when one really dissects *why* it is so dominant I think it becomes clear that 90% userate is a bit overkill. Zapdos, after all, isn't a conventionally broken pokemon like your follow me
Jirachies or your Flutter Manes wherein it single-handedly causes the demise of half your team without any thought or room for action. I like to think of metagames in terms of their most powerful offensive types, and in the case of ADV none are more obvious or critical than Ground due to ADV Earthquake, and Water due to Rain and Suicune. Electric, Grass, Ice and Rock act as the core coverage types for these and a few top threats make Normal and Steel significant. In this regard Zapdos' strength becomes clear as a defensive cornerstone of the metagame, being the only *viable* flying type to resist metagross' meteor mash while not hosting a 4x weakness to another core type. It furthermore is one of two flying types to consistently be able to remove opposing flying types (the other being aerodactyl) and its Thunderbolt is a splashable click into a hefty chunk of the game, something that is a luxury in a tier without many gauranteed forms of progress-making. It also has good speed, flexible support moves and coverage and enough bulk to sit around and deter back water types (suicune) from grabbing momentum back in the game. HOWEVER, Zapdos is not invincible, and it's far from broken with a number of pokemon preying in its tendency to sit on the field and click blankly. Regice Blissey and Celebi all take meager damage from Thunderbolt and click freely in front of Zapdos, Regice being particularly annoying to see given its stellar coverage and speed control. Marowak's (and rhydon if you're a baller) Lightning Rod can blank Zapdos out of an entire board and fellow electric Raikou is generally unphazed by anything Zapdos can do as long as it or a teammate can handle Twave clicks, using Zapdos as setup fodder to become one of the most dangerous threats in the tier. Tyranitar and Regirock can threaten to OHKO Zapdos while easily being in 3hko range of Thunderbolt, but they can also abuse this dynamic to set up or spread Thunder Wave if the Zapdos makes a defensive play. Even pokemon like Snorlax or Swampert if the Zapdos lacks HP Grass can take advantage of Zapdos' mild setup/disruption options for free space. So while Zapdos in many ways deconstructs offense in ADV and abuses the game mechanics to its own benefit, a large portion of the modern format is actually quite adept at putting it down or exploiting its largely linear gameplan, and I think there's plenty of structures that can survive just fine without it.
Clear body, the best non-restricted signature move in the game and a monstrous attack stat to click it and Earthquake with, Metagross is the single biggest physical threat in the metagame in my opinion. Metagross finds numerous opportunities to enter battle off its typing and rarely has to worry about getting OHKOed while being oppressively hard to slow down thanks to clear body and meteor mash. A single attack boost can spell doom even for resists and with an agility boost Metagross is able to beat down 3 of the 4 main Calm Mind sweepers in the format. Metagross' natural affinity for lum berry, good enough speed and fantastic steel damage into Regis, TTar and Blissey makes it a surprisingly good deterrent for super bulky Thunder Wave spam as well, not offering any time to safely click the yellow button until it is removed. This compilation of all around great traits afford it an impressive level of consistency into almost every archetype in the game with the only exceptions perhaps being rain. All told this makes Metagross one of the absolute most important threats to consider in the format especially as RegiBliss has come forward as a solid stop to most offensive cores.
Ludicolo is a Zapdos. Insanely good defensive typing, an excellent consistent (accuracy aside) offensive tool in Hydro Pump great coverage great utility options and a great matchup into top threats of Metagross, Suicune and rain while also enabling so much. Ludicolo is a splashable fake out in a Tier where your best alternatives are base Kangaskhan with no sucker punch and Hariyama before real fighting moves existed. Redzone discussed at length how Ludi is mandatory for rain but I think it should be a very serious consideration on non-rain teams as well. Ludicolo is able to balance a good matchup into almost the entire metagame depending on its set, really only being truly passive in front of Celebi and being threatened by faster band users on non-rain. Leech Seed is super spammable in this tier and offers some recovery to enhance ludi's fantastic typing while offering a way to break down bulky wincons. I built so many teams in VDL with Solo Colo on them that they should really speak of themselves but I'll also leave some sample ludi sets here with their intended functions given.
Find the Ludi that's right for you with our patented matchmaking program!
PLEASE give this pokemon a try I promise you it will change the way you play the format for the better.
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Tauros is one of the most splashable pokemon in the metagame, and one of the most linear. It is exceptionally rare that tauros does anything other than the sample set, needing as much speed as possible for the mirror and as much attack as possible to justify its role as a blanket revenger with choice band STAB double-edge, one of the 3 strongest physical attacks in the game. However Tauros is extremely easy to scout with protect and not very sturdy into faster threats such as opposing rain pokemon, +1 Raikou or Aerodactyl who also near-walls it. Furthermore Tauros' ubiquitous use of the choice band and extreme reliance on its speed makes it the easiest slot in the format to click Thunder Wave into especially if it's locked into an ineffectual move versus Regirock or Zapdos or sufficiently intimidated. While it is undoubtedly great at killing neutral targets with Normal STABs I find that its non-existent defensive profile deters me from putting it on many of my teams, especially with its tendency to freely enable Metagross and Regirock switches when locked into its STAB move
More than anything I find this ranking on the VR to be dated, but not too unfair in modern contexts. Celebi is perhaps the single most versatile pokemon in the format, capable of CM sweeps setting screens, spamming heal bell and Heal Stall for whatever team it finds itself on. It is undoubtedly the weakest of the calm mind pokemon at full sweeping games thanks to a cripling Bug weakness that can actually be exploited by physical hitters and its Stabs leave it completely walled by metagross However it is also the only one that resists earthquake making it particularly difficult to beat with Follow Me support (in theory at least) and perhaps the best one at ruining Rain and matching Suicune. Celebi is also the most splashable heal bell user in the format, being particularly solid into Zapdos and Regirock but also just having great speed a good typing to gain entry points with and useful side options to click outside of heal bell. The only reason I don't have this pokemon in tier 1 is I find the Calm mind set pretty underwhelming unless it's HP Fire + Psychic which doesn't really beat Suicune and because I use Ludicolo a little more as a grass type and stacking grasses is pretty terrible if your opponent loads the Fliers or Bugros at all
Biggest CM threat in the tier, borderline unkillable with rest sets. Never going to be on *every* team but easily the most threatening thing to think about aside from maybe metagross. You can build all 6 of your slots around enabling this guy to win and it will work. Doesn't even really need Thunder Wave support to work just statbox everyone and land enough early Hydro Pumps to win. (If you run surf genuinely what the fuck are you doing it's going to take you 12 turns to KO anything and any competent team should be good enough to abuse that... Waterfall is chill I guess)
T3 -> T2
CRACK COCAINE AS A POKEMON. Regirock completely invalidatee every single physical attacker in the format except Metagross and Marowak while beating down all 4 intimidate pokemon with relative ease and spamming Twave with the free turns it generates. Band is also fine as Superpower is the strongest coverage move any physical attacker has in the game with a number of solid normal type targets in the format and the other band pickups on Zapdos and other rock-weaks are also great. Curse is also an option as a win-con but pretty hard to setup as the Waters that keep it in check are usually pretty hard to bait removal for. Admittedly Regirock has some of the most polarizing matchups in the tier, being horrendously bad into the broken Hydro Pump clickers (especially suicune) but it also finds so many entry points on physical attackers with its titanic bulk to get its Twaves off or beat down the intimidators for allied physical pokemon that it demands serious respect in almost every game. Get this pokemon a light screen and it becomes an elite Zapdos remover as well, making it keenly aware of how few of its teammates actually resist rock STAB. I really can't stress enough how much this pokemon pressures all of the intimidate users and especially how difficult it makes Tauros' life, being perhaps the biggest reason I can't consciously put Tauros in tier 1.
Having the right intimidate pokemon on your team is a really important decision in the builder and all too often you'll end up needing one of these two to blank and reduce earthquakes from the likes of Marowak or Tauros or Snorlax. both of these pokemon benefit massively from Gen 3's Hidden Power mechanics gifting them a reliable flying stab to click with for the only time in history really. Both also boast critical earthquake coverage, with Hydro Pump and in mence's case Brick Break as further options. While White Herb Dragon Dance is a classic use for both and still applicable, I find Gyarados most suited to Roar and Thunder Wave support while Mence acts as a great choice bander and the second strongest Brick Breaker in the tier (after Hariyama).
Salamence has good bulk and good speed to work with, capable of nuking Celebi with HP Flying and doing considerable damage with Double-Edge (which is actually as strong as tauros' if you go adamant thanks to the much higher attack stat). Unlike Tauros Mence is capable of forcing entries on earthquakes and completely walls Arcanine, and in a pinch can eat a Hydro and sacrifice massive damage onto a Suicune with Double-Edge. While it may seem odd that I keep mentioning Double-Edge you should absolutely run it on all banded mence sets. Double-Edge is significantly stronger into neutral targets than Earthquake or Hidden Power and critically allows Salamence to hit Zapdos without sacrificing its STAB Hidden power. Brick Break is an incredible anti-Blissey option to round out the kit. If you run Dragon Dance I again think you should run Double-Edge with earthquake (its just better coverage than HP flying thanks to Zapdos while hitting harder) and on rain teams you can be funny with Rain Dance Hydro Pump HP Flying.
Gyarados on the other hand is extremely suited to a support role, being the best pokemon in the tier at roaring Suicune and the only main Intimidator with access to Thunder Wave. Gyarados is uniquely good at enabling TWave strategies for pokemon like sub Metagross or band Snorlax thanks to its ability to pressure both Celebi and Marowak with its Stabs, capable of OHKOing Marowak with Special Invested Hydro Pump while outspeeding it easily even with a brave or quiet nature and easily being able to pick up a 2hko on Celebi with HP Flying if it wants. With only two weaknesses to Electric and Rock (and you can just Hydro Regirock for big damage) Gyarados has one of the best defensive typings in the game, walling Mash/eq metagross and finding space to come in on almost everything else while healthy thanks to its excellent bulk. Dragon Dance with Double edge or HP rock eq is also a fine surprise set but not the main reason I consider it so highly, as I find the support set to be immensely splashable. Also one of like good 3 pokemon in the game with taunt but I haven't figured out a set/team where it feels better than its other options.
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Heavily debated if I wanted to put this pokemon in T2 or Tier 3. The Calm Mind set makes it a natural Tauros predator after a single boost, OHKOing it with tbolt. Meanwhile on rain it stands as one of the most consistent setters and best suicune deterrents with Thunder and crunch to do decent damage to Celebi. However it feels like every set has 4mss, with HP Grass missing the ability to hit Celebi and Crunch lacking sufficient damage into Swampert or Marowak. Its frailty can also make setting up safely a decent hassle, and no team preview always leaves you always guessing if there's a wak in the back. Still the most offensive and immediately pressuring CM sweeper otherwise and I can easily understand other putting this one in Tier 2 for its rain flexibility and incredible matchup into Zapdos.
The best Zapdos counter in the game. Takes pitiful amounts of damage feom anything Zap can do while nuking it with Ice Beam (offensive zapdos can get one shot by 252+) or freely twaving the slot. Regice is also generally good at holding down rain squads for a few turns notably is excellent at removing Marowak as a twave clicker, being just barely faster than it and again massively denting it with Ice Beam.
252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD 30 IVs Marowak: 312-368 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Psych Up/Toxic bolt beam is also an interesting anti-setup option to duel the calm mind users late game and counter is really funny for messing with non-metagross physical attacks but mostly stick to speed control utility. Slightly overshadowed by Regirock due to its worse typing and even worse Metagross matchup so it lands firmly in tier 3 but still a very good piece for teams that need to patch a Zapdos/rain matchup
Throughout this post I've been mentioning the 4 main Calm Mind wincons but I lied here's the 5th. Blissey is the final boss of special offense completely outlasting all of them thanks to recover and its absurd bulk. With full modest investment and a boost Blissey is capable of doing solid damage to any target thanks to the ubiquity of boltbeam coverage in this tier. Outside of Calm Mind Blissey is another capable twave clicker that comes in on half the format, or a Twave remover with heal bell, and capable of setting light screen or weather for its teammates. With so many physical attackers relying on non-stab moves or hidden power Blissey's physical bulk isn't terrible either
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 270-318 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Recovery is a fantastic tool to have in this format with so many lowered offensive options and Blissey takes things further by being able to click it so freely in front of half the pokemon in the game. For being such a good cleric, generalist support and win condition if you feel like loading reflect, Blissey has easily earned this ranking in my eyes.
Despite all the special walls and calm minders Kingdra is a reliable damage dealer for rain with a quite frankly ridiculous defensive typing for this metagame. Not much to say, it's unc gen Kingdra, could see people calling it tier 2.
The fact that this pokemon isn't even on the VR is utterly insane to me. Jirachi has outstanding coverage with the ever-obnoxious serene grace as a calm minder, with Psychic + Fire Punch hitting every pokemon in the format for neutral STAB or super-effective except Tyranitar and Starmie or access to 20% Boltbeam with Ice Punch Tbolt. In terms of utility it has both speed control options and both screens with a good speed stat to boot. It even has an alternate setup option in Cosmic Power where it can flex its superior speed over registeel and spam 20% freeze ice punches in sand to ruin everyone's life.
Celebi is also the only Calm Mind user in the game immune to toxic and sand chip, instead weaponizing this usual counterplay to Suicune or Celebi as its best ally. Of course the elephant in the room is that Jirachi is weak to Earthquake, but it is by no means physically frail and with the help of a Gyarados or a Salamence it can easily find room to play against choice band users/ground types. I think this is possibly the most underexplored pokemon in the entire format, having everything you could possibly need to succeed and massively rewarding you for loading it into unprepared victims.
Genuinely decent Twave user, probably the best option for actually dragon dance sweeping due to Rock STAB pairing so phenomenally with Earthquake. Just sticking a Tyranitar on your team can offer insane chip value into Lum spam/Suicune but its titanic statline is almost never a disappointment. With just enough physical defense to survive Metagross Meteor Mash Tyranitar can click for quite awhile into lesser foes, excelling at turning the long game into an advantage for itself and whichever long-play steel type or Swampert it's paired with. Helping mitigate weather vs rain/sun is a nice perk as well.
Depending on who you ask this might be a top 5 pokemon in the format. For me it stays in tier 3 due to my specific affinity for Twave clickers that can beat it and my otherwise general avoidance of the concept. That said Marowak is horrifyingly powerful with its item and gen 3 earthquake. Capable of annihilating many of the slowplay pokemon I already mentioned like Regirock and Blissey while bricking opposing Thunder Wave, Marowak is one of the best pokemon in the game at stopping your opponents from trying to drag the game past 20 turns. And yet it gets so much value from just staying alive as long as possible. Lightning Rod not blocking your own Thunder Wave and electric attacks combined with Marowak's own poor speed even further accentuates its synergy with offensive Paralysis structures and Zapdos in particular. All that said, however, Suicune teams can make Marowak feel a like dead weight and Heal Bell Celebi can completely ruin parawak strategies. Marowak is also a bit strapped for base stats despite thick club, leaving it hungry for as much spdef as it can carry and not much room to boost its offense or speed which it would otherwise appreciate versus the Regis and Blissey were it not already spread so thin. For these reasons I cannot personally rate it as tier 2 as I don't *quite* use it that often, but if I was a different kind of player it would be very easy for this pokemon to be higher on this list.
Curselax will completely ruin your life if you're too light on physical counterplay or lose your intim early in a game. A decent physical analog for Calm Mind Suicune with a very useful poison immunity and ridiculous special defense. Band Lax is also a surprisingly ferocious Tank that trades very well into even rain-boosted Hydros and Zapdos
252+ SpA 30 IVs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Snorlax in Rain: 191-225 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Double-Edge vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 300-354 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
This pokemon is really only held back by it sharing so much defensive counterplay with Tauros, having no resistances unless you sacrifice your toxic immunity and it being so slow that even Thunder Wave fails to help it in some cases.
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These pokemon haven't really innovated or been made more relevant by shifts since the boom ban, in fact in many of their cases they've been harmed. However all of them are still solid pokemon with good base stats and strong niches that have been around since ye olden days that were definitely better and more fun that all the old people like to talk about so they get their little unc slop comfort tier.
The worst big 4 intimidator by a good margin. Massively disadvantaged by Hydro and Earthquake being so dominant offensively in the tier but always has held the distinction of being one of the only things that can OHKO Metagross. It has enough bulk to survive Earthquake if it's healthy while blowing Metagross to kingdom come. Unfortunately Arcanine isn't quite base 100 speed so it can get cleaned by Zap + agil meta before it does anything or chipped throughout the game trying to do its intimidate job and then being stuck on the field to deter metagross entry as long as possible. In practice this means agility Metagross often isn't too worried about seeing this guy these days, easily cleaning up chipped Arcanines after an agility or simply waiting for it to faint earlier in battle. Spamming a 120 base power move with a burn chance and 5 more accuracy than hydro pump is still a solid niche though, and being able to blow up support Celebi with decent variety in its back slots in Roar, Helping Hand, Safeguard and Extreme Speed means it usually still gets some value even in bad games.
Walls Tauros, gives levitate to Raikou and Jirachi to make them omega-level threats, bolt beam coverage and its great speed stat let it punish the intim fliers making it a pretty decent anti-intim pokemon in practice. Pretty consistent at setting rain, extremely good at clicking Wisp which is insanely strong pre-gen 7. Taunt Haze Destiny Bond etc are all fun and can get some good surprise value too. Will never be what it was during boom but can completely ruin some teams' gameplans when deployed correctly.
Fat piece of shit that clicks twave or can amnesia curse in sand with clear body to pretend the crit rate isn't 6% while doing 40 with earthquake. Counter toxic and weather moves are funny options. The other two steel types are way more straightforward to use but this guy excels at spreading the maximum amount of suffering
Not in its glory, but definitely not bad. A ground type that beats Marowak and blanks HP Ice, having this guy in your scout can force some pretty hard decisions on what coverage your opponent brings. Aside from that coinflip on whether it shitmoggs Zapdos or not. Swampert is also genuinely fantastic into Metagross while having neutral to winning matchups into a ton of other pokemon (Regis) in the tier thanks to being a competent mixed attacker with the two best STAB types in the generation. The Electric immunity makes stacking Water with a Gyarados or a Ludi or a Suicune genuinely viable and being a Rock resist for your flying types is sooo useful into Regirock teams. I might end up rethinking this nom because I started using this guy again and he's been pretty rewarding but for now tier 3, does what it's always done, one of the coolest guys around.
Has the same exploitable clicking choice band buttons into protect/intim weakness Tauros does, but at least it kinda walls Tauros and its rock STAB cripples the other intimidators. Aside from punishing the intimidators fairly well, Aero is notably the only pokemon in the format naturally capable of revenging a boosted Raikou, an otherwise herculean task without the right defensive pieces.
I think these niches have fallen by the wayside a bit as other pokemon (regirock) capable of performing them have emerged and the metagame has become more focused on special sided gameplay than it was in the boom era where aero was critical for cleaning weakened pieces. It's a little hard to sell a revenge killer whose strongest neutral attack is non-stab double-edge with 105 attack stat and the only special perk is not taking recoil. Even so, it's faster than the entire rest of the format and has just enough coverage to hit everything for good damage.
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T3 -> T4
Flat special coverage isn't nearly as useful now as it was a few years ago, with light screen and special walls and cm setup running amok. Starmie does have screens thunder wave and recover with two great stabs to choose from but making your Water-type slot to click these buttons, even as fast as Starmie does isn't worth it most of the time so this one's definitely fallen off a little bit.
Completely counters Mash EQ Agil tect Metagross, though rolling hp rock on it over protect can make you question your life. Aside from that is the only decent pokemon with access to wisp and somewhat reliable recovery, becoming a nightmare to deal with if it starts getting free turns or enabling your calm minder to win once your opponent's phys breaker is crippled. 125 special Fire Blast hurts like hell into any neutral target as well.
Hari is an interesting pokemon in that it has a solid niche but also it's kind of dogshit. Fake Out is obviously good and rare in this format and STAB Brick Break makes this pokemon a menace into Snorlax, Tauros, Blissey and Regice as well as any teams looking to crutch light screen against Rain/Calm Mind. Helping Hand allows many prospective partners to break their checks in half while circumventing hari's poor speed, such as +1 raikou OHKOing almost any non-spdef boosting nature marowak with hidden power or enabling metagross earthquake to KO a full health Arcanine. Being a rock resist neutral to ground is also a nice perk that lets it duel Regirock and thick fat lets it really push its matchups against Regice and Arcanine. Hariyama's good neutral bulk also lets be an effective Suicune phaser, though not as good as Gyarados. All that said mono-fighting is kind of terrible and Hariyama's awkward statline forces it to spend a metric fuck ton of evs into its bulk to function correctly. Hariyama will always have 4mss thanks to brick break being unable to hit Flying types or Celebi; with Earthquake not helping the issue at all and hp rock leaving you as metagross fodder if you want to fit protect or a utility move 4th. Its poor speed can also prevent it from breaking screens with brick break before it gets knocked out. It is also completely ineffective as a phazer versus Calm Mind Celebi or Jirachi carrying Psychic and gets steamrolled by the intim fliers. All these poor matchups combined with awkward bulk and utility compared to its peers can make it a real momentum sink after a few turns or if its main partner is KOed so it definitely requires a certain playstyle to work. Bulk up might be cool on a paralysis comp.
Heal bell flying type. 252+ Icy wind into Ice Beam picks up max HP zapdos 100% of the time making for decent deterrent while its high special defense meanse it can at least trade down hp on a neutral board with Zapdos for a turn. Its high spdef also makes it decent at buying time into rain mons and its access to haze with decent speed is definitely great for shutting down non-raikou Calm mind pokemon. Its a bit of an oddball and gets absolutely smashed by Metagross and struggles to deal with its crippling rock and electric weaknesses but cleaning thunder wave is always nice to have.
Every so often this guy will pull up on a fat celebi and get to megahorn it into Eternia and it's always funny. Nukes Blissey and is an earthquake resist, has earthquake too I guess. Definitely one of those pokemon you load to say "My opponent doesn't even think about this existing and I hate them for that let me ruin their life" and then spend 2 weeks thinking its the greatest thing ever before it loses you a series versus a normal player and then you don't think about it for several months.
UR -> T4
I HAVE AN ADDICTION TO HEAL BELL AND MUST BE STOPPED. THE AUTHORITIES IN ALL OF THE LOWER 48 WILL SOON PUT MY NAME ON A WATCH LIST. I AM STRAIGHT EDGING IT DOUBLE STYLE TOO INTIMIDATING TO BE STOPPED. THE BELLS OF HEAVEN COULD NOT HEAL ME. THE EARTH QUAKES WITH A THUNDEROUS WAVE OF SORROW EVERY TIME I STEP. THE DEMON OF BABYLON IS UNLEASHED AND HE SHALL NEVER EVER RETURN TO HIS SLUMBER
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell
3/10 I love it.
UR -> T4
Follow me is systemically broken in this generation and this is the best clicker because it also has twave and broken 7 turn encore and the most bulk of any option. Ninjask is banned now but this pokemon can definitely still ruin lives. Clefable is bulky enough to live hits and get its utility off and there's no shortage of crazy setup pokemon in this tier.
This guy + Moltres/Arcanine can form a decent sun option on some teams, usually with Blissey, to full shut down rain strats. Sleep is extremely debilitating with no way to block it outside of Lum and solar beam is pretty strong :)
252+ SpA Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD 30 IVs Tauros: 283-333 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
I mention some of the low tier funnies in my teamdump but otherwise they mostly aren't really worth talking about. Kang feels like an unmon without sucker but fake out eq return +1 is really all you need to do something. Jumpluff is really really stupid and if you win the 37.5% chance to sleep a tauros with it turn 1 I wish you a very end my suffering already please god it burns!
Now that I've talked about all the pokemon, I want to again draw attention to how many of them mess with Zapdos. The Regis, Blissey, Tyranitar, Snorlax, Marowak, Celebi, Raikou, Swampert. As valuable and consistent as Zapdos is it is not omnipotent and I think its time for its usage to start coming back down to earth in the future. Apparently a few people mentioned Zapdos as potentially broken on the survey and that just doesn't sit right with me at all. Aside from my repeatedly stated opinion that Zapdos is overused, Zapdos' function in the metagame is almost purely stabilizing, active as a consistent defensive switch against some of the biggest physical threats in the tier while offering critical stabilizing support in the form of Light Screen, Thunder Wave and Roar while active. It can't single-handedly sweep games nor does it do unfair amounts of base damage relative to the field of Hydro Pump and Earthquake spammers. The only annoying thing I can really attribute to Zapdos its ability to leverage twave so well into Metagross due to its typing and speed. Agility Metagross is able to significantly threaten or OHKO all of the Thunder Wave clickers in the format while being perfectly content with holding a lum berry on many teams, except Zapdos and Gyarados. I might be metagaming a bit but I suspect that this specific pain point makes Thunder Wave/Zapdos feel a lot more oppressive than it would otherwise, seeing that in gameplay Metagross ends up being an extremely reliable way to out-offense Thunder Wave spam and some teams don't build many options outside of that.
In general I don't think Thunder Wave is broken. Yes it is degenerate at times but its presence in the tier adds significant depth to the builder and a distinct playstyle to interact with in its ability to enable slower wincons such as Marowak, sub gross and Band Lax. As frustrating as full para is for me you lose so much more by not having it in the format. The metagame would become significantly more centralized with less punish gameplay for blank clicking with offensive pokemon (think regirock calling a Tauros double-edge and then Thunder Waving the slot or Regice eating a Zapdos tbolt and then punishing the inbound ice-resist). I see a lot of players bemoaning the slower gameplay that heal bell vs twave and whatnot has forced but I don't see that as a bad thing. It allows significantly more time for both players to pry information out of their opponents in this no team preview format and increases the value of information preservation as games get drawn out. Not to mention the exorbitant amount of counterplay actually available to the damn move.
- Marowak. Even outside of Twave this pokemon is incredible in this format for a multitude of reasons and can almost single-handedly deny thunder wave gameplay from certain structures
- Heal Bell. A fantastic tool available on two top pokemon and a few niche ones.
- Lum Metagross. Lum berry in general is usable but the way lum Metagross specifically shuts out so many Twave users is so incredible for offensive teams. Just this paired with a Marowak is usually enough to blank most Twave clickers
- Dedicated absorbers. There's 2 and a half natural cure users in the format, and plenty of slow fat pokemon like Snorlax and the regis that don't too much mind absorbing Thunder Wave to do their jobs.
- Rest Suicune. A more specific archetype but effectively nulls its win condition from carrying about Twave
I really think the format should stand as it is and develop a bit more before any tiering action happens now that ninjask got sprayed. You're never going to have a perfect tier when half the best options are inaccurate moves and the crit rate is too high and there's basically no spread moves and half the pokemon are using hidden power for thier STAB but I think there's a good amount to enjoy here in builder just snapping the current pieces we have into place.
UPDATED Conclusion: While I typed up everything here in the VR discussion 2 months ago and got super busy with life. I'm really happy to see some of the innovations people made in ADV cup and that a lot of the discourse has toned down. This tier is so much more enjoyable with good ludi usage and paralysis mitigation and while I did unfortunately act call out of cup after my ratpacker loss I look forward to returning sometime in the future, I have a lot more exploring to do in this builder. Sorry this took so long, at a certain point I genuinely forgot about it and had no motivation to finish it but I decided to push through and get some form of a finished product out. Hopefully the next time I try to teamdump i get it done in a single weekend.
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Metagame ADV Doubles OU
- Thread starter NinjaSnapple
- Start date
with the conclusion of the ADV DOU Cup, the VR has been updated, thanks to the help of SEA, ratpacker, Actuarily, Schister, and myself.
Rises:
Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Tier 4 -> Tier 2
Tier 4 -> Tier 2
Tier 5 -> Tier 4
UR -> Tier 3
UR -> Tier 4
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 4
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 5
UR -> Tier 5
Drops:
Tier Z -> Tier 1
Tier 1 -> Tier 4
Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Tier 4 -> Tier 5
Tier 4 -> UR
Tier 5 -> UR
Tier 5 -> UR
Rises:
Tier 2 -> Tier 1 Tier 3 -> Tier 2 Tier 3 -> Tier 2 Tier 4 -> Tier 3 Tier 4 -> Tier 3 Tier 4 -> Tier 2 Tier 4 -> Tier 2 Tier 5 -> Tier 4 UR -> Tier 3 UR -> Tier 4 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 4 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 5 UR -> Tier 5Drops:
Tier Z -> Tier 1 Tier 1 -> Tier 4 Tier 1 -> Tier 2 Tier 2 -> Tier 3 Tier 2 -> Tier 3 Tier 3 -> Tier 4 Tier 3 -> Tier 4 Tier 4 -> Tier 5 Tier 4 -> UR Tier 5 -> UR Tier 5 -> UR
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good afternoon, i am not an adv player nor will i be posting any opinions here— i was bored and procrastinating for a test and got interested by a discussion in DOUcord that led me to indexing all of the ADV replays from derby— and i figured once i'd done that i'd might as well grab the VDL replays and index everything! shoutout #unemployment
i will be attaching a document with all of the replays that i indexed if you wish to see them for yourself & mess around with the data
Derby
overall usage
lead statistics
VDL
overall usage
leads
Cumulative
overall usage
leads
replays are linked here
enjoy!
i will be attaching a document with all of the replays that i indexed if you wish to see them for yourself & mess around with the data
Derby
overall usage
lead statistics
VDL
overall usage
leads
Cumulative
overall usage
leads
replays are linked here
enjoy!
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