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ADV Gengar

Colonel M

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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This is for Mc(Ice)Gar​

SET COMMENTS said:
This moveset is supposed to mess up Blissey, but people caught on and started using Ice Beam Blissey. Now people are starting to use Thunder Wave again instead so this guy can still come back and cause some trouble. Swampert still stops it.
Click to expand...
So uh, I don't get this. Needs a re-write, don't you think?​

[SET]
name: Mc(Ice)Gar
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: Thunderbolt
item: Leftovers
nature: Mild / Rash
EVs: 156 Atk / 170 SpA / 184 Spe​

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Substitute and Focus Punch is a combo commonly used in Advanced, and this set is no exception. This set suffers problems from Swampert and Blissey that use Ice Beam, so a second strategy of removing them is highly recommended. Spikes is also recommended since Gengar is a Ghost-type anyway and can easily block Rapid Spin.</p>​

<p>With this set, Gengar can beat Blissey one on one most of the time. Seismic Toss doesn’t affect Gengar thanks to its Ghost-typing while Substitute blocks any attempt of status inflictions on it. Focus Punch not only harms Blissey, but also Snorlax and Tyranitar that may attempt to switch into Gengar. Ice Punch injures Zapdos and Claydol while Thunderbolt maims Skarmory and Gyarados.</p>​

<p>The given EVs allow Gengar to 2HKO (48 - 56%) the standard Blissey most of the time with Focus Punch. 184 Speed EVs give Gengar 302 Speed, enough to outpace Adamant Salamence. The remaining EVs are poured into Gengar’s Special Attack stat to boost Ice Punch and Thunderbolt.</p>​

I removed Shadow Ball, but feel free to convince me to add it back in. IMO Ice Punch is superior to Shadow Ball with the exclusion of Dusclops.​
 
Well, the current set comments are right, though abrupt. It does poorly against Blissey with any other move besides Seismic Toss i.e.: Ice Beam. Mention how it doesn't quite work properly when Blissey has Ice Beam, as it will break your sub. Thunder Wave Blissey is free set up though, since it can't do anything to break your sub.
 
Colonel M said:
[SET]
name: Mc(Ice)Gar
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: Thunderbolt
item: Leftovers
nature: Mild / Rash
EVs: 156 Atk / 170 SpA / 184 Spe​

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Substitute and Focus Punch is a combo commonly used inAdvanced, and this set is no exception (remove 'to the concept').</p>

<p>With this set, Gengar can actually beat Blissey one on one. Seismic Toss doesn’t affect Gengar thanks to its Ghost-typing while Substitute blocks any attempt of status inflictions on it. Focus Punch not only harms Blissey, but also Snorlax and Tyranitar that may attempt to switch into Gengar. Ice Punch injures Zapdos and Claydol while Thunderbolt maims Skarmory and Gyarados, while also providing great coverage.</p>
​

<p>The given EVs allow Gengar to 2HKO the standard 702 HP / 130 Def Blissey most of the time (actual statistics might be better) with Focus Punch. 184 Speed EVs give Gengar 302 Speed, enough to outpace Adamant Salamence. The remaining EVs are poured into Gengar’s Special Attack stat to boost Ice Punch and Thunderbolt.</p>​
Click to expand...

​
 
Forgot about Ice Beam. But I added that (and Swampert) in the SET COMMENTS. Also made some of Katherine's changes (BoltBeam combo should be kind of obvious, and adding may twice is a little redundant). And just for the hell of it, I added the damage calculation in there.
 
if it doesn't 2hko blissey all the time AND blissey can't do shit to it, why not just move atk ev's to spdef to make it not have it's sub broken. you're bound to ch in those 32 focus punch attempts =/
 
Just a quick question: why not use 176 Speed EVs instead of 184? You'll still outspeed Adamant base 100's by a point, and still have 8 EVs left over for Attack.

Is 184 recommended to tie with other Gengar?
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
if it doesn't 2hko blissey all the time AND blissey can't do shit to it, why not just move atk ev's to spdef to make it not have it's sub broken. you're bound to ch in those 32 focus punch attempts =/
Click to expand...
You have a very, very slim chance of not 2HKOing anyway. Besides that, you would need max SpD in order to survive a 299 SpA Ice Beam. The alternative would probably revolve 72 Atk / 252 SpD / 184 Spe. And then you run into this scenario: 184 Atk vs 130 Def & 702 HP (150 Base Power): 306 - 360 (43.59% - 51.28%). Which means you have a 3.81% chance of a 2HKO, but only in the one environment Gengar doesn't like very much: Sandstorm. Alternatively you COULD run Lonely, but this weakens Ice Punch and Thunderbolt more. In return, you do around 48 - 57%, which increases the chances of a 2HKO to 36%, or 90% in Sandstorm. Yeah, if you Critical Hit you can 2HKO, but I don't like revolving around critical hits myself (even with 32 PP going at it). Perhaps more ADV people can chip into this discussion though.

For the latter post, yes, it is to tie with other Gengar.

I'll hold off for discussion of EVs, but the second best EV spread would -probably- be this:

72 Atk / 252 SpD / 184 Spe Lonely.
 
The odds of a CH in 32 PP are actually quite bankable; 87%. Not to mention Spikes support on Gengar's team can help with killing Blissey. Just because it's labelled as a Critical Hit doesn't mean it's unreliable.

In my one RSE team I've ever built I used McGar as my spin blocker anyway so it kind of worked together; Donphan switches to Blissey as I Sub up and then Spikes Punches do a fair amount, though a smart player could Softboiled stall.

Also, Focus Punch has double the PP of Softboiled, so you might not even need a crit.
 
Actually Chris, I sort of neglected Spikes. I guess with Spike support, 2HKOing Blissey becomes less of an issue, so I guess I might take that into consideration. I'll expand further on this, and might use the suggested EV spread that I've given (72 Atk / 252 SpD / 184 Spe) but I might use Mild or Rash pending on calculations and such.
 
Colonel M said:
You have a very, very slim chance of not 2HKOing anyway. Besides that, you would need max SpD in order to survive a 299 SpA Ice Beam. The alternative would probably revolve 72 Atk / 252 SpD / 184 Spe. And then you run into this scenario: 184 Atk vs 130 Def & 702 HP (150 Base Power): 306 - 360 (43.59% - 51.28%). Which means you have a 3.81% chance of a 2HKO, but only in the one environment Gengar doesn't like very much: Sandstorm. Alternatively you COULD run Lonely, but this weakens Ice Punch and Thunderbolt more. In return, you do around 48 - 57%, which increases the chances of a 2HKO to 36%, or 90% in Sandstorm. Yeah, if you Critical Hit you can 2HKO, but I don't like revolving around critical hits myself (even with 32 PP going at it). Perhaps more ADV people can chip into this discussion though.

For the latter post, yes, it is to tie with other Gengar.

I'll hold off for discussion of EVs, but the second best EV spread would -probably- be this:

72 Atk / 252 SpD / 184 Spe Lonely.
Click to expand...

299 SpA? Blissey's max +nature SpA is 273. (I am assuming you are talking about Blissey here) And in order to guarantee Gengar's Substitute survive an Ice Beam coming off 273 SpA, you would need max/max +SpD on Gengar.

On my McGar, I always use the following spread
Gengar (M) @ (Leftovers)
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 236 Atk / 176 Spd / 96 SAtk
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)

This spread would return 225 Atk(guarantees the 2HKO on 704/130 Blisseys), 300 Speed, and 352 SpA(Doesn't do anything iirc but it gets the bonus EV point)

There is really nothing that 374SpA does that 352SpA doesn't. Eg, it still gets the OHKO on Mence, still fails to OHKO Skarm, still fails to 2HKO Milotic on average, etc. So IMO this is a superior spread.
 
Holy crap, I did a huge error on that one. But the calculation is correct (I must've typed it wrong in here because I did the calculation with 199 SpA).

I'm juggling things around (it sucks I can't -really- test this out anymore unless I beg some people to do ADV battles on Netbattle and such). I'm thinking Aero that the SpD oriented one could go in the EV section to keep arguing down to a minimum. Unfortunately, I might need some time tweaking the EV spread and pondering which would be more useful. I'll post here once I've gotten it down.
 
I dunno about you guys, but I think I've reached my decision. I will explain everything to the best of my abilities and then you can retaliate and flame me all you want.

- The EVs will be kept as is.
I feel that, despite being able to prevent Substitute from being broken by Ice Beam is really good, it isn't something I find a high priority. Now, you may rebuttle with this if you'd like because my opinion isn't set in stone. I will, however, mention about Spikes and Gengar being a good Spin Blocker and such in SET COMMENTS once we've figured out the EVs.

- The bulkier EV spread to OO
Again, you may argue with this. I have an open mind and I'm not the type of person to ignore something UNLESS I know for a good reason. In this case, I will allow people to at least give me a decent reason why the bulkier spread should be the set EVs and such.

This, like I've said, isn't set in stone. Feel free to voice your opinion. If you agree with it, cool. If not, at least give an explaination (MoP's post is a decent explaination on this). I apologize until then and such.
 
The thing with relying on a crit with Focus Punch is that you have to get a crit at a point where Blissey instantly dies, or can be finished off with Thunderbolt. If you can't, Blissey will just Softboiled before your next Focus Punch, due to its priority modifier. I don't think any good Blissey user would let it come that far, especially not if you move all your Atk EVs away.

However, Softboiled only has half as much PP as Focus Punch, so it's a bad idea for such a Blissey to engage Gengar to begin with.
 
For consistency's sake (with the analysis) I simply kept the old EV spread, mentioned the Spikes support, and also added a note about using 252 SpD EVs in the EV section, which -should- suffice. I let this sit for about 5 days, so it should be fine otherwise. I've uploaded this anyway.
 
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