Gen 3 ADV Little Cup

Aerow

rebel
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As some of you may know, ADV Little Cup is undergoing some changes. Basically, we'll be looking over some previously banned Pokemon and discussing them here. However, certain ubers -- Chansey, Zigzagoon, Wynaut, and Scyther -- are agreed upon to be very broken, and will stay banned.

Especially Omanyte and Meditite will be very important topics to discuss here.​

Meditite
is quite simply one of the best wallbreakers the metagame has to offer. It gets perfect coverage in just two moves (High Jump Kick and Shadow Ball), allowing it to pick and choose its counters depending on its 3rd and 4th moveslot-- it has several options such as Bulk Up, Endure, Reversal, and can even go mixed with Psychic to easier bypass some of its traditional checks and counters.

Unbanned because: Its average bulk and only decent Speed rendered it vulnerable to revenge-kills in such an offensive metagame; furthermore, the fact that there are immunities to both of its main attacks, along with the existence of several fairly reliable one-time checks, creates the reasonable possibility of actually being able to play around Meditite.

Omanyte
has incredible sweeping potential thanks to its great Special Attack stat and access to Swift Swim. This makes it an absolute terror in the rain, and many of its checks struggle to switch in more than once. In generation 3, there is no Eviolite, and the many prominent Special walls of ORAS LC, such as Munchlax and Lickitung, are ineligible or do not exist. As such, after a Rain Dance, Omanyte was able to outspeed and OHKO most relevant Pokemon with Hydro Pump. In addition to its great offensive capabilities, Omanyte's good physical bulk gave it numerous opportunities to set up.

Unbanned because: Omanyte does have a few noteworthy soft checks in Porygon, Wailmer, Kabuto, and Chinchou. Omanyte also has some great checks in Surskit, Lotad, and Tentacool, but these Pokemon aren't all that viable outside of checking Wailmer and rain sweepers such as Omanyte.

Diglett was banned a while back, which was argued to be a bit unnecessary afterwards. The metagame still had much room to grow and expand, and there were plenty of viable options to take advantage of Diglett and punish its usage. However, we'd still like to hear opinions on Diglett, as it did stir up quite a bit of controversy earlier in the thread.

Unbanned because: Most people have changed their mind, and realized that Diglett actually isn't broken nor ban-worthy.

---

Current council that will be able to vote in suspects:

Aerow
Corporal Levi
Fiend Hound
Heysup
Krubby
queenlucy
sparktrain

---
xxx
xxx
 
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Corporal Levi

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Hi, so Aerow and I decided to hastily make a few changes to the viability rankings to account for the drops:<br />
Meditite: Unranked -> S
Omanyte: Unranked -> S
Porygon: A+ -> S
Diglett: Unranked -> A+
Porygon was moved because despite losing to Meditite, it was already generally considered to be deserving of S-rank before the drops, making this change long overdue, and it is now able to act as a guaranteed revenge-killer to Diglett. Furthermore, it functions as a decent check to just about every Swift Swim user, less so for Omanyte, which is important because a number of them are more (but still not) viable in the current metagame for their own ability to check Omanyte.
Elekid and Wailmer are staying in S because the drops likely will not impact their viabilities significantly; Elekid is a 50/50 against Diglett and is able to force Omanyte out before Rain, and all three drops are simply additions to the already enormous list of top tier Pokemon that Wailmer checks.

Feel free to discuss these changes, but keep in mind that they're not of a very high priority until the metagame settles down.
 

Corporal Levi

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Hi RoA! This thread was originally in the LC subforum, but it probably makes more sense here, so I guess we're moving over, if that's ok. The first four posts in the thread are to help players get into the metagame (I'll be working on updating the sample teams), and Aerow's recent post states what is currently going on.

Most of the ADV LC discussion goes on outside of the thread at the moment, but we may as well bring it here. While we're discussing the possible bans of Omanyte, Meditite, and to a lesser extent, Sitrus Berry and Diglett, what do you guys think of a possible Sonic Boom unban + Voltorb ban? I brought it up before, but my timing wasn't very good for something so controversial so it got left behind.

There are three users of Sonic Boom in gen 3 LC, which are Magnemite, Spinarak, and Voltorb. Spinarak is decent but not great as a Baton Passer, and Magnemite is, quite frankly, terrible, while Voltorb is already a top threat. I don't think Sonic Boom will make Spinarak and Magnemite outright broken just because they have so many negative traits to compensate for it, so Voltorb will probably be the only issue here; in other words, Sonic Boom isn't broken, Voltorb is.
It may look like this is unbanning Sonic Boom and banning Voltorb just to increase the viabillity of two Pokemon, but that's only relative to the current metagame. If we look at it from the perspective of a clean slate, with nothing banned initially, it's really actually just Voltorb being banned because Sonic Boom makes it broken, which is similar to Zigzagoon being banned even though Belly Drum makes it broken. We could just as well say that we nerfed Spinarak and Magnemite unnecessarily to keep Voltorb in the tier. Of course, the difference between Sonic Boom and Belly Drum in this case is that Sonic Boom is much more likely to be considered broken as a mechanic, but in similar situations, there hasn't been a problem with keeping a broken mechanic in the tier if nothing that actually uses it is broken. For example, take trapping in ORAS LC: it prevents you from using half of your options and requires almost no risk to take advantage of in a good number of team match-ups, but Gothita and Diglett (and Trapinch and Wynaut) have so many disadvantages that they're usually considered just fine regardless.
Sonic Boom might become the best move in the game for its consistent damage output, but on average, it'd probably be less powerful than wallbreakers like Doduo and pals. It's true that Pokemon carrying Sonic Boom can now run bulk and still 2HKO everything in sight, but just keep in mind that we're dealing with the likes of Magnemite and Spinarak here.
Maybe it'll be broken anyways, but I just feel as if Sonic Boom is something that could be worth discussing.
 
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mad0ka

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Potentially unbanning sonic boom is stupid because it removes a really healthy mon from the meta with an incredibly useful niche and only adding two subpar mons that now have access to a dumb broken move. I know you "countered" this point by looking at the meta from a clean slate, but that's just a moronic moot point like honestly. Magnemite and spinarak both can be invested to have pretty decent bulk, and magnemite has very useful resistances, so it'll definitely be lasting throughout the match. Spinarak would also be able to baton pass out of dangerous trapping situations versus Trapinch.
 
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I seriously think that we can just make a complex ban on Voltorb and just get rid of sonic boom for that. That way we can have our slurpuff and eat it too. And if Sonic Boom is broken on Spinarak and Magnemite after some testing then we just ban it all together
 

Fiend

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The lack of Focus Sashes, different Sturdy Mechanics, and these pokemon's relatively unviableble nature makes this quite interesting. They are all quite slow really, and Magnemite has a mixed bag for typing. It has some awesome resists, but is otherwise quite useless due to a x4 weakness to EQ, a weakness enhanced by Diglett's presence and lack of Choice Scarfs. On the other hand, we have this fairly decently typed pokemon with rather awesome bulk (23/14 is quite bulk. Modest Wail can't reliably KO Careful Spider; Wailmer Water Spout (150 BP) vs. Spinarak: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). With chance to KO a fair chunk of the tier after a single layer of spikes in addition to semi reliable healing in Thief makes Spinarak seem rather menacing.

I like the idea of more viable pokemon, but this looks borderline broken, or at least centrialing to a sadly large degree. Anything with 21 HP and gets 3HKOed (with few exceptions in pokemon not using Sitrus Berries), but if Spikes are used, this becomes a clean KOon anything without a Ground immunity or stupidly high HP. But it can get around these uber high HP stat pokemon thanks to Thief, so it becomes a fairly potent wallbreaker with nice bulk. I'd have to try this out, but on paper, no thank you.
 
I think the general opinion is right now we should hold off on this. We've just moved to RoA and we want to be a very welcoming meta, where we don't have to worry about anything being too broken or outrageous to newcomers. Right now you can try out sonicboom with other veterans but our focus right now should be having lots of sample teams and sets posted for new players, and try to be a good, welcoming atmosphere.
 
I'd rather not open up the nasty can of worms that is Sonic Boom. Yeah, Spinarak and Magnemite are mediocre mons, but I don't think banning Voltorb / complex banning Voltorb+Sonic Boom just so those two can have a funny toy to play around with is a great idea. Why make the banlist more confusing than it has to be?
 

Aerow

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Hello all!

The ADV LC discussion has been going on in the LC subforum for a while, but after a lot of requests from the ADV LC community, we will continue the discussion once again in the Ruins of Alph! There was some talk earlier in the thread about retesting two previously banned Pokemon; Meditite and Omanyte, but we've decided to wait a bit with that, and rather try to explore the meta with the old banlist.

One of the bigger changes now is that we have our own thread for the Viability Rankings, and we are also hoping to have an ADV LC tour soon in the LC subforum, so look forward to that!
 

Aerow

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Something I forgot to mention in my previous post, is that we also need some new Sample Teams! If there is a team that you want to share with the community, please let us know!
 
I'm still new to ADV LC, so my team is probably not all that good, but I like to use it anyways.

Elekid @ Berry Juice
Ability: Static
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Thief

Cacnea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Def / 76 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Wailmer @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 200 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Water Spout
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Trapinch @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Atk / 236 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Quick Attack
- Return

Gastly @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Explosion

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Def / 156 SpA / 156 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recycle
- Thunder Wave

My team doesn't really have much of a core strategy or anything, but like I said, I like to use it.
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs


A cool little oddish offense team I made a while back. Oddish + Ponyta are a nifty core that have decent type synergy and sun helps both. Focus Punch Elekid is a way underused set that helps eliminate porygon, which could be potentially annoying as it can countertrap trapinch and kinda take on wailmer. Porygon countertraps diglett if it wins the tie versus elekid or traps non-boosted pony and trapinch is a guaranteed trap versus Elekid.

NO LIGHT, NO LIGHT (Elekid) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Static
Level: 5
EVs: 92 Atk / 160 SpA / 236 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Focus Punch

ONLY FOR A NIGHT (Oddish) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 76 Def / 160 SpA / 40 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder

WHAT WATER GIVES (Wailmer) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 200 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Spout
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

SEVEN DEVILS (Ponyta) (F) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Run Away / Flash Fire
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Agility

SPECTRUM (Porygon) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 156 Def / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Recycle

SHAKE IT OUT (Trapinch) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 36 Atk / 156 Def / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Quick Attack






meowth is a mon i've hyping lately, and here's the team i used to test meowth. it + endure salac doduo is a cool duo as lead meowth draws in the flail resists and either chunks them, pops their berry, or hypnos them, making it easier for doduo in the lategame. diglett is a great addition as it traps tons of annoying stuff. bj was chosen here as it kinda alleviates that annoying rain weakness this team have (as rain mons really don't set up on anything else). pony because i've been loving that mon lately. band gas is 'nother hard hitter that pressures defensive mons as well. wailmer, man this mon is good. it feeds on trapinch traps versus either diglett or pony if sunny day isn't up.

money folder (Meowth) (M) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Hypnosis
- Shadow Ball

meat grinder (Diglett) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Thief
- Substitute

rhinestone cowboy (Doduo) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Flail
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Grass]

do not fire! (Ponyta) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Agility
- Solar Beam

fancy clown (Gastly) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Explosion

sickfit (Wailmer) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Water Spout
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam





cute team, swept levi. not much else to say

GRAND CHARIOT (Ponyta) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Agility
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast

ALTAIRIS (Poliwag) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 40 Def / 40 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Return
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Hypnosis

SEMA (Porygon) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
Happiness: 0
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Frustration

ERZA (Ledyba) (F) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 40 Def / 36 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Giga Drain
- Endure

TENTAI MAHŌ (Trapinch) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 36 Atk / 156 Def / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Quick Attack

METEOR (Wailmer) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Self-Destruct
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
 

fran17

I COULD BE BANNED!
wow almost 2 years of this

This is a easy to use team I really like to use. Itemless Ponyta is the lead, the point of not having an item is because I played only againist thief Gastly when using this (screw the old samples) and I found it really funny. Double Kick hits Houndoom which can be problematic for the team if Endure Salac. Baltoy gives hazard control and checks ground/rock types which are threatening for Ponyta. Cancea gives spikes support and checks RD Horsea and other water types. Then there is the rain duo formed by Chinchou and Horsea. RD Chinchou is cool because with Ice Beam and then a boosted Surf you can beat Porygon, and if you die in the process you still have Horsea as a backup sweeper. Diglett is last because is broken and is a good cleaner :)
Ponyta
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 240 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Fire Blast
- Double Kick
- Flamethrower

Baltoy @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 156 Def / 36 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin

Cacnea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Def / 76 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Chinchou @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 52 Def / 232 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Rain Dance
- Surf

Horsea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Diglett @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Double-Edge
 
wow almost 2 years of this

This is a easy to use team I really like to use. Itemless Ponyta is the lead, the point of not having an item is because I played only againist thief Gastly when using this (screw the old samples) and I found it really funny. Double Kick hits Houndoom which can be problematic for the team if Endure Salac. Baltoy gives hazard control and checks ground/rock types which are threatening for Ponyta. Cancea gives spikes support and checks RD Horsea and other water types. Then there is the rain duo formed by Chinchou and Horsea. RD Chinchou is cool because with Ice Beam and then a boosted Surf you can beat Porygon, and if you die in the process you still have Horsea as a backup sweeper. Diglett is last because is broken and is a good cleaner :)
Ponyta
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 240 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Fire Blast
- Double Kick
- Flamethrower

Baltoy @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 156 Def / 36 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin

Cacnea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Def / 76 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Chinchou @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 52 Def / 232 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Rain Dance
- Surf

Horsea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Diglett @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Double-Edge
Bulky band users serve as the best counter to thief spammers, snubbull in particular does well with that as it can run thief to then take the sitrus berry from the switch in.
 

Aerow

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Alright so, I wanted to try and build a Spikes Offense team with both Bagon and Larvitar (two sweepers that's severely underrated atm with Spikes support imo), and ngl, the team ended up being p sick. (I guess the 20 winstreak speaks for itself :^))

Pineco @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin
- Body Slam

Bagon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Substitute

Larvitar @ Berry Juice
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 244 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

Staryu @ Berry Juice
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Duskull @ Berry Juice
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thief
- Shadow Ball
- Memento
- Will-O-Wisp

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 156 SpA / 156 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Recycle


The team is built around Bagon and Larvitar as win-conditions. Both of them are extremely potent sweepers with Spikes support, so Pineco is a fairly obvious choice as a lead since it is the most reliable Spikes user in the metagame. Staryu is super fast, strong, can spread paralysis and has some nice recovery. Porygon is great to countertrap Trapinch and Diglett, and is overall amazing and a nice switch-in to a lot of stuff. Duskull helps with Explosion and Self-Destruct shenanigans, burns annoying stuff, checks Doduo and Memento support is extremely nice, and allows Bagon or Larvitar to set up on almost everything.

Overall a really solid team that's super fun and good, and it also has some Pokemon that's not too common in ADV LC! I'll post some replays later.​
 
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This is my Sandstorm team, it's probably not the best sandstorm team I can make, so if you guys have any advice or tips, tell me :3.

Lileep @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Suction Cups
Level: 5
EVs: 148 HP / 140 Def / 108 SpA / 60 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sandstorm
- Giga Drain
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Cacnea @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Def / 76 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sandstorm
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Destiny Bond

Baltoy @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 160 Atk / 156 Def / 116 SpD / 76 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Shadow Ball
- Rock Slide

Wailmer @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 200 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam
- Water Spout

Gastly @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Def / 156 SpA / 156 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recycle
- Thunder Wave
 
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Jett

all those rumors, they have big teeth
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That'll be what your opponent is doing after they lose to you
Pineco @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 200 Def / 160 SpD
Impish Nature
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion

Lotad @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Def / 116 SpA / 196 SpD / 116 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Surf
- Rain Dance
- Thief

Kabuto @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 76 SpA / 156 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave

Abra @ Berry Juice
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Substitute
- Thief

Doduo @ Choice Band
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Drill Peck
- Quick Attack
- Return

This is a team I built around Lotad. Lotad's a pretty cool mon. It can check rain teams with it's unique typing and can just be a nuisance to play against since it gets access to thief. I paired it with Kabuto cause it also benefits from rain being up and together they have good type synergy despite both being water types. Dragon Dancers can be scary but with rain up Kabuto can handle them easily (hits 30 under rain whilst Bagon and Larvitar only hit 28 at +2 speed). I then added the Abra-Porygon Core. Porygon's job is to remove key threats to Abra especially Diglett. If Sun is up Porygon can still beat Ponyta and do a number to it's sun abusers after something else has been put to sleep. Abra is insanely strong and at +1 has very few checks. Pineco is for hazard control and Doduo is for breaking through fatter mons which this team may struggle against such as Porygon.

Overall, this is a fun semi-rain team.

s/o Vubon for the name of this team and thanks Krubby for Lotad EVs

EDIT: After the removal of Berry Juice, Sitrus Berry should be used over it on Abra

Might post more teams soon...
 
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Really nice team! Lotad is so good and I will forever hype it. I really like the synergy of having kabuto who can also abuse rain while clearing spikes which really helps lotad counter wailmer even better. Also, optimal EV's for it is imo Calm (+ SpD -Atk) 36 HP / 36 Def / 116 SpA / 196 SpD / 116 Spe. In rain it hits 22 speed, outspeeding every unboosted mon in the tier. The extra special defense really helps it check or often counter every water type out there.

252+ SpA Horsea Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Lotad: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
116 SpA Lotad Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Horsea: 17-20 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Wailmer Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Lotad: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
116 SpA Lotad Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Wailmer: 17-20 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Porygon Thunderbolt vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Lotad: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Lotad: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Lotad: 17-20 (80.9 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you can not OHKO this guy with a special attack unboosted and because there's no exploitable special weakness, it just is such a great offensive blanket check, and bulky checks with offensive presence are something rare and valuable in ADV LC; we've seen how good porygon can be.

Also it fucks Elekid 1v1

252 SpA Elekid Thunderbolt vs. 36 HP / 196+ SpD Lotad: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 SpA Lotad Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Elekid: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
116 SpA Lotad Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Elekid in Rain: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Elekid has sitrus berry and uses thunderbolt twice, then excluding hax the end result will be Lotad at full health in rain and elekid dead. of course, sub shenanigans are a thing but still. thats damn impressive to do to one of the best pokemon in the tier.
 

Jett

all those rumors, they have big teeth
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
ADV LC Speed Tiers V.2
Taken over from Dhaora
With help from Aerow and slurmz


If an EVs number has a "+" next to it, that means that it is using a positive Speed nature, and if it has a "-" it is using a negative Speed nature.

Tier 1 (21 - 38 Spe)
Pokemon in tier 1 reach the highest stats of practical importance in Generation 3 Little Cup. Pontya at +2 is the highest included because anything beyond that occurs due to repeated Speed Boosts or uses of boosting moves and is ultimately trivial. All Pokemon in this tier are boosted by an ability, move or berry.
38
Ponyta - 196+ EVs, + 2 Stages (after Agility)
Wingull - 236+ EVs, + 2 Stages (after Agility)

34
Doduo - 236 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Agility)

30
Dratini - 196 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Agility)
Horsea - 196 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Rain and Swift Swim are active)
Kabuto - 236 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Rain and Swift Swim are active)

Rare:
Diglett - 236+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry is consumed)
Elekid - 236+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry is consumed)



28
Porygon - 196+ EVs, + 2 Stages (after Rain/Sun and traced Swift Swim/Chlorophyll)
Kabuto - 156 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Rain and Swift Swim are active)

26
Bellsprout - 196 EVs, + 2 Stages (while Sun and Chlorophyll are active)

Exeggcute - 196 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Sun and Chlorophyll are active)
Horsea - 36 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Rain and Swift Swim are active)

25
Carvanha - 236+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)
Doduo - 236 EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)
Houndour - 236+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)
Mankey - 196+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)


24
Cyndaquil - 236 EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)
Dratini - 36 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Agility)
Ledyba - 236+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)


22
Bellsprout - 36 EVs, + 2 Stages (while Sun and Chlorophyll are active)
Exeggcute - 36 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Sun and Chlorophyll are active)
Lotad - 116 EVs, +2 Stages (after Rain and Swift Swim are active)

Oddish - 116 EVs, + 2 Stages (while Sun and Chlorophyll are active)
Porygon - 116 EVs, + 2 Stages (after Rain/Sun and traced Swift Swim/Chlorophyll)
Snorunt - 196+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac berry consumed


21
Bagon - 196 EVs, + 1 Stage (after a Dragon Dance)
Larvitar - 188+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after a Dragon Dance)
Ledyba - 76+ EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)
Krabby - 196 EVs, + 1 Stage (after Salac Berry consumed)


LC Speed Tiers - Natural, Unboosted Speed

Tier 2 (16 - 20 Spe)
The fastest unboosted Pokemon are found in tier 2. Most invest fully into their speed. Pokemon have been banned or are very strong with the high speed being part of the reason. Most of the Pokemon here tend to be quite frail but they still dominate the ADV LC tier. All three Pokemon which hit the highest unboosted speed of 20 are all very prominent in the tier.

20
Diglett - 236+ EVs
Elekid - 236+ EVs
Voltorb - 196+ EVs

19
Abra - 196+ EVs
Magby - 252+ EVs
Meowth - 196+ EVs
Poliwag - 196+ EVs
Ponyta - 196+ EVs
Staryu - 236+ EVs
Taillow - 236+ EVs
Wingull - 236+ EVs

18
Anorith - 236+ EVs
Doduo - 236+ EVs
Gastly - 196+ EVs

17
Carvanha - 236+ EVs
Chinchou - 220+ EVs
Doduo - 236 EVs
Houndour - 236+ EVs
Mankey - 196+ EVs
Onix - 196+ EVs
Surskit - 236+ EVs
Tentacool - 196+ EVs

16
Chinchou - 220 EVs
Cyndaquil - 236 EVs
Growlithe - 196+ EVs
Ledyba - 236+ EVs
Surskit - 236 EVs
Wailmer - 196+ EVs

Tier 3 (11 - 15 Spe)
Pokemon in tier 3 include the majority of all the unboosted Pokemon. Chlorophyll and Swift Swim users are found here. Pokemon here lack the speed and therefore many are lost among the crowd due to larger competition.
15
Dratini - 196+ EVs
Horsea - 196 EVs
Kabuto - 236 EVs
Magnemite - 236+ EVs
Snorunt - 196+ EVs

14
Bagon - 196 EVs
Cacnea - 236+ EVs
Cubone - 236+ EVs
Drowzee - 180+ EVs
Kabuto - 156 EVs
Krabby - 196 EVs
Larvitar - 188+ EVs
Machop - 236+ EVs
Porygon - 196+ EVs

13
Bellsprout - 196 EVs
Clamperl - 180 EVs
Horsea - 36 EVs
Oddish - 196+ EVs
Rhyhorn - 236+ EVs
Tentacool - 0 EVs
Wailmer - 36 EVs


12
Baltoy - 0 EVs
Clamperl - 180 EVs
Ekans - 0 EVs

Kabuto - 0 EVs
Skitty - 36 EVs


11
Bellsprout - 36 EVs
Exeggcute - 36 EVs
Lotad - 116 EVs

Oddish - 116 EVs
Porygon - 116 EVs
Sandshrew - 36 EVs
Skitty - 0 EVs
Snubbull - 116 EVs

Tier 4 (7 - 11 Spe)

Tier 4 is where the slowest Pokemon lie. They are invested in defenses and offenses rather than there pitiful speeds, except when EVs are left over. They are normally the bulkiest Pokemon and can also hit hard in return making up for their poor speed.
10
Cubone - 0 EVs
Koffing - 0 EVs
Porygon - 0 EVs
Shellder - 0 EVs
Snubbull - 36 EVs

9
Duskull - 0 EVs
Pineco - 76 EVs
Rhyhorn - 0 EVs
Shellder - 0- EVs


8
Pineco - 0 EVs
Slowpoke - 0 EVs
Trapinch - 36 EVs

7
Lileep - 0- Evs
Trapinch - 0 EVs

If you think anything should be changed/added/removed on this list, feel free to comment in this thread
 

Holiday

on my best behavior
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

ADV LC UBERS
It's about time we get this post up. ADV LC Ubers is a very fast paced metagame that users in our wonderful Gen 3 LC room on Showdown have been playing and enjoying. As more resources come through, they will be posted here!

Unbanned: Chansey, Meditite, Omanyte Scyther, Wynaut, Zigzagoon, Agility + Baton Pass, Sonicboom

Banned: Dragon Rage

Current council:

Aerow
Cheek Pouch

Corporal Levi
Crystalites
Dustflier
Fiend
fran17
GrilledClawitzer
ggggd
Heysup
Krubby
mad0ka
slurmz
sparktrain
 

Unbanned: Wynaut
Ok, so first of all I'd like to say that it's nice that more people have been paying attention to ADV LC Ubers. Getting responses of "is that a thing?" whenever I ask for a battle in the Little Cup room was frustrating.

I firmly believe Wynaut shouldn't be allowed. It's an obnoxious Pokémon the very existence of which significantly reduces the enjoyment of the tier. It's not healthy at all for the metagame, simply a counterplayless blob. ADV LC Ubers is an extremely offensive metagame, and Wynaut parties. It can trap and kill all those hard hitting Pokémon. And with Berry Juice, it will likely have the chance the trap and kill a second one, too. It offers way too much reward for minimal risk.

EDIT: Sonicboom is not banned? This move OHKOs or nearly 1HKOs the entire tier except for Chansey. It allows Pokémon with absolutely no offensive investment to deal ridiculous amounts of damage. Think about it. It is move that does 80% to 100% (!) damage to literally every single Pokémon in the metagame except one. It sounds, and it is, way too strong.

FURTHER EDIT: I believe Agility + Baton Pass should go. The main problem with this combination is that it pushes Meditite way over the limit. Meditite is very strong offensively, but it has counterplay because it's not very fast which allows you to play around it and set up a position from which you can kill it. Now imagine Meditite being faster than everything. You can't switch in, and you'll get toasted. And Meditite isn't even the only abuser, though I think it has the highest reward to effort ratio.

While battling a member of the ADV LC Ubers council, I was informed that Swagger is not banned. Considering that the Swagger ban is included in the Smogon Global Clause, I don't see why it shouldn't be banned. It is a ridiculous move that relies completely on luck, and with the +2 Attack boost that doubles confusion damage, the reward it offers it way too low compared to the risk it carries. It is uncompetitive and should leave the tier.
 
Last edited:

Blitz

境界の妖怪
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Discord Leader
Genuine question. Can I ask why Berry Juice is legal in this metagame?

Rundown of the Gen 3 games:

Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald: Shuckle is unobtainable in the first 2, but is found in Emerald. The only item it can have held is Oran Berry.

FireRed/LeafGreen: Shuckle here can hold Berry Juice. Unfortunately, the only way to actually get Shuckle involves going into the Altering Cave and catching it, which is in itself a dummied out event that was not made legal anywhere (not even in Japan).

Colosseum/XD: The Shadow Shuckle in the first game does not hold Berry Juice. The only Shuckle you can get in XD is a trade, which also does not have Berry Juice.

So unless there is some obscure event that gave out Berry Juice (I can't find any), it shouldn't be able to be used.
 

Marty

Always more to find
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Researcher
Research Leader
Blitzamirin is completely right - Berry Juice can't be obtained in Gen 3.

I've gone ahead and made Berry Juice unusable in any Gen 3 format, which will take effect sometime soon. I assume this doesn't actually make a difference to anyone since Sitrus Berry exists and Unnerve doesn't, and Item Clause is not enforced. Carry on!
 

Jett

all those rumors, they have big teeth
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
The removal of berry juice actually affects a few lc mons which have 21 hp and less which used to use berry juice as thief is quite common in adv lc meaning those mons will receive more recovery when stealing the berry but this only applies to a few scenarios so I see this as a good change. Good to know that this meta is improving still even with it being kinda inactive sometimes.
 

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