Gen 3 ADV Ubers Viability Ranking Thread, Take 3

[Fireburn]

APPROVED BY ME, OP BY unfixable

-- ADV Ubers Viability Rankings --

Welcome to the ADV Ubers Viability Rankings thread! This topic will be about the placement of Pokemon in the ADV Ubers metagame. We will decide on these rankings through the Pokemon's ability to sweep in the metagame, wall in the metagame, and through various other aspects. One important aspect we will discuss is how much team support a Pokemon requires, and how much constraint the Pokemon places on teambuilding, if any. All users are encouraged to post their opinions on the rankings, and what they feel is inaccurate about the list; however, please do not comment on various Pokemon if you do not have experience playing this metagame! We will be ranking these Pokemon to represent how they fare in the metagame and we would like the list to be a tool for users to see how the metagame is portrayed. Do note that the Pokemon are displayed in each ranking in alphabetical order, not by which is better than the others in the same rank. Without further ado, your Viability Rankings!

S Rank
The top dogs of the metagame. These Pokemon possess an amazing combination of incredible offenses, wonderful utility, and key defensive aspects that make the Pokemon in this group easy to fit onto teams. Most good teams will contain one or more of them.

Groudon

Kyogre

Latias

Latios


A Rank
Excellent Pokemon with great offensive and/or defensive capabilities, They tend to be among the first considerations for certain roles and can accomplish them very well, though they may require some team support to function.

A+

Blissey

Deoxys-A

Mewtwo

Snorlax

A

Forretress

Ho-Oh

Jirachi

Lugia

A-

Magneton

Rayquaza

Regice

Skarmory


B Rank
These Pokemon have decent offensive and/or defensive capabilities and can fulfill specific roles pretty well, but generally require larger degrees of support than other Pokemon.

B+

Gengar

Kabutops

Metagross

Omastar

Registeel

Shedinja

Steelix

Umbreon

B

Aerodactyl

Deoxys-D

Deoxys-S

Exeggutor

Qwilfish

Salamence

Slaking

Tyranitar

B-

Flygon

Jumpluff

Ludicolo

Raikou

Regirock

Shiftry


C Rank
These Pokemon can fulfill specific niches, but are often very reliant on the team to help them function and minimize their flaws. They may also be mostly outclassed in some respects by other Pokemon.

Heracross

Lanturn

Mew

Ninjask

Wobbuffet

Zapdos

D Rank
Uber in name only, these Pokemon should never be considered for use on a serious team.

Deoxys-N

Wynaut

Rules:

• This is not a favorites list, we will not rank a Pokemon because it is "cute" or because it is our favorite Pokemon!
• Please keep discussion civil, we do not want harsh arguments and lashes in this thread!
• Please add some meat to your posts. Explain why you think the Pokemon deserves a ranking. Not just "Exeggutor is S Rank because I think it has good power". That will not be accepted as an argument!
• Do not post mindless theorymon. Sure, you could say "well, Meditite OHKOes Groudon with Focus Punch and it has a decent Attack stat so it should be ranked," but in practice Meditite is going to be terrible. Experiment with the Pokemon in question!

Things to Remember in Regards to Ranking:

• How does the Pokemon fare in the metagame?
• What can the Pokemon sweep or wall?
• Is the Pokemon outclassed by another Pokemon?
• Is this Pokemon too niche?
• Does this Pokemon require much team support?
• Does this Pokemon require you to think about it more than others while teambuilding?
• Does this Pokemon come with an opportunity cost?

Happy posting everyone!

 

[zf]

Celebi definitely needs to be ranked somewhere. SD Pass is really scary with the correct recipient and it's support set, while not amazing, possesses some nice niche stuff like Perish Song and Heal Bell. It's also a pretty decent answer to Snorlax and Gengar. Maybe B- or C Rank.

I'd also like to see Dugtrio ranked somewhere. Adamant CB traps and significantly damages/removes most Lati@s answers (2HKOs Jirachi / Metagross / Blissey / Lax / Registeel), making it quite effective at breaking defensive and balanced cores. B+ Rank perhaps?

Ludicolo should drop. It handles weaker special attackers like Gengar/Omastar alright, but it loses to Ogre/Lati and is bait for many threats, such as Ray and CM Jirachi and absolutely hates Toxic. It is annoying if it gets a sub up, however. B- or C Rank imo.

Raikou should move up a rank because of RoarCM. It's actually pretty annoying if you don't have a Blissey or Snorlax because it phazes anything that tries to set up against it (Lati@s, CM Blissey, Psych Up Regice, etc) and throws around mildly strong STAB Thunders. Unboosted HP [Ice] 3HKOs Groudon too so it can't switch in all day. With Spikes support, it beats many standard rain builds atm. Doesn't provide much defensively outside of the Flying resist though. B- rank.

That's it for now. Solid list Fireburn :]

 

[MMII]

This is a good reference point to keep my opinions in a proper perspective.

Dugtrio is really bad, imo. All it does for the team is *try* to trap Steel-types but even with CB, max attack, Adamant, STAB Earthquake it ohkos none of them (Magneton and Aggron being the sole exceptions) and it's shit tier bulk means you can only bring it in on a double or something. Literally every Steel-type OHKOs Dugtrio with exception to Registeel, who wins with Curse. Add onto that the fact that Steel-types aren't going to be the only Lati@s checks on the team and it becomes even harder to justify Dugtrio. Oh, and then you remember Magneton exists.

Ludicolo

calcs

0 Soul Dew Latias Dragon Claw vs. Ludicolo: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery
252+ Soul Dew Latias Dragon Claw vs. Ludicolo: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- 48.5% chance to 3HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery
252+ Soul Dew Latias Ice Beam vs. Ludicolo: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 4.7% chance to 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery
252 Soul Dew Latios Ice Beam vs. Ludicolo: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 24.5% chance to 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery
252+ Soul Dew Latios Ice Beam vs. Ludicolo: 123-145 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery
252 Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. Ludicolo: 141-167 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery
252+ Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. Ludicolo: 155-183 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery

252+ Kyogre Ice Beam vs. Ludicolo: 91-108 (25 - 29.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery
252+ Kyogre Thunder vs. Ludicolo: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 67% chance to 4HKO after Rain Dish recovery and Leftovers recovery

So yeah, it actually beats strong special attackers like the Lati@s and Kyogre. Mind you, there's an asterix attached for Thunder Latios who you want to avoid coming in on Thunders repeatedly (although remember Leech Seed saps a shit ton for Ludicolo). The only Lati@s and Kyogre sets it really loses to are Mono and Substitute respectively. It's also incredibly frustrating to switch into. Ignoring how nice STAB, rain-boosted Surfs are as well as the threat of Toxic, Leech Seed in particular is a pain because it wears down your switch-ins and also makes it super easy for you to bring in your counter to their counter. (on top of healing whatever you managed to do to Ludicolo)


I agree with Raikou and would like to attach Zapdos and Claydol to the rise. Zapdos is very similar to Raikou except that it beats Blissey while struggling a bit more with the Lati twins. (who still dislike getting Thunder paralyzed) Defensively, the Flying-typing lets it pretty safely check Ho-Oh under rain as well as CB Lugiass without having to predict around EQ. It can even serve as a check to Groudon instead of being checked by it provided the Groudon isn't using Rock Slide. This is a much more pronouced niche than things like Heracross and the rest of C rank which are pretty much gimmicks that have some super situational use like Baton Passing or a surprise clean.

Likewise, Claydol has the ever coveted Rapid Spin that it can use alongside Shadow Ball to ensure it gets rid of Spikes (which it's also immune to!). On the defensive side of things, it serves as a decent check to Groudon, assuming it doesn't have HP Ghost, as well as giving you a way to quickly kill Steel-types. Oh, and it gets Explosion. Again, not a phenomenal Pokemon but it's being heavily downplayed to be stuck in the same group as the aforementioned gimmicks (like fucking do-nothing Wobbuffet or "I wish I was Snorlax" Slaking)


I also think Metagross and Registeel should switch places. Metagross is cursed a number of ways. As a high-attack, CB Pokemon it's only spammable move is Meteor Mash. That may seem good seeing how no other Steel-type really gets a good Steel-type move but then you remember that MM is resisted by: Kyogre, every other Steel-type (like Magneton!), Ho-Oh and Zapdos/Raikou. All it can do to hit those Pokemon is opt for coverage moves like Earthquake, HP Ghost, and Rock Slide, which is bad because the all fall flat on just about everything that isn't the single specific target they are meant for. As a physically defensive Steel-type, it doesn't have the coveted Shadow Ball resist which means it's relying on it's raw bulk to handle them.

demonstrative calcs

Choice Band Deoxys-A Shadow Ball vs. 252 Metagross: 145-171 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Choice Band Deoxys-A Shadow Ball vs. Jirachi: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Basically the same thing....

On the special side of things, the bulk is much less solid. It gets 4HKO'd by fucking Ice Beam (from Latios) and Thunderbolt straight up 2HKOs it, forget about coming in on Thunder. To sum it all up, Metagross is just a shitty Jirachi that can use CB better. (and there are better Steels for that too...)

Registeel on the other hand has fantastic bulk on both sides of the spectrum as well as all the resists you'd want out of a Steel-type. (cause it's mono-Steel of course...) The Curse set is very formidable on Offensive teams because of how well it forces the opponent to bring out and keep their Groudon and Kyogre in play, which you can promptly dispatch with your boosted Explosion and open up sooooo much for the rest of the team. On builds that don't quite want a dedicated boombot and want to profit from the fantastic bulk; Stoss, Toxic, Amnesia, and, of course, Explosion, is the set for them as it can stop every Lati@s variant (mono is forced into a long PP stall/crit fishing war so that's an easy Explosion) as well as pester every potential switch-in.

I think Steelix deserves a bump because it's basically an offensive Skarmory that beats Lati@s one-on-one instead of being hard punished by them, stops Jirachi, and is the least prediction reliant CB Steel-type because EQ and Double Edge hit almost everything hard.

I still think Mewtwo and Deoxys-A are being overrated. Particularly Deoxys-A, who is just a specialized Mewtwo in my eyes. They just hit things hard which is far from special, you can't even assume them to be the undisputed best in that regard considering how incredibly dangerous the S-rank Pokemon are. I guess you can say they revenge kill the Lati twins? Thank god adv teambuilding is so flexible that dedicated wallbreakers without absolutely zero defensive utility can actually find room on teams.... (oh and, ugh, they encourage Sball spam against your team :/)

 

[Oxypad]

I remember I had a team with Quagsire...Electric immunity and Water Absorb!

Moveset would have included Earthquake/Yawn/Protect/Toxic/Counter/Ice Beam - I forget.
Forget the EVs I would use too. Specially defensive biased probably.
Rather disappointed it does not get Mirror Coat, but it can Curse and/or Amnesia!

Perhaps I liked it as an anti-Kyogre more than others due to the typing and Yawn so it could at least be a prick to pretty much any switch-in (I imagine).
I mean, I really disliked the use of Blissey. And the others like Lati@s, Ludicolo, and Lanturn can either get cheesed by paralysis or are just dull special attackers.
(Hooray for the physical attack that is STAB Earthquake.)

Yes I know its stats aren't very good. However it does have a lack of weaknesses (BoltBeam particularly) and some staying power with Protect + Leftovers + Water Absorb.
It deserves a spot somewhere since it has/had a niche. Not sure how it fares in the current metagame, but just place it in C rank.

 

[MMII]

I'd imagine Toxic, EQ, and Protect would be must have to beat Kyogre. You need every little bit of Leftovers you can get so that +1 Ice Beam doesn't break you. EQ has the advantage of popping max HP Kyogre Subs 100% of the time so that's really hard to pass on. Not sure what you'd do for filler, probably Amnesia to beat the Lati twins, although Surf might be good for Skarm/Forry.

 

[shrang]

HP Ghost on everything, yo

 

[MMII]

it'll do pebbles, might as well just Toxic stall them

 

[Fireburn]

Claydol is bad. Aside from non HP Ghost Groudon (which isn't that many of them since HP Ghost covers a lot of would-be Groudon checks) it checks practically nothing. It actually fails to check CM Jirachi too as it can 2HKO with +1 Ice Punch if it has some SpA investment while even 252+ Claydol doesn't even come close to KOing with Earthquake. All the Spikers in the tier beat it 1-vs-1 as well (Omastar clicks Hydro, Forry can HP Bug, Skarm and Deo-D just Toxic it and laugh at its base 70 Attack). Yeah it beats Gengar more easily than Forretress but that's not really enough to justify using it outside of very niche roles. It checks nothing well and offers little to a team outside of a spinner that can beat a specific Groudon set. I think it fits well in C-rank, and that's only because it can explode lol.

Raikou I'll probably move up, CM Roar is pretty okay. However, Zapdos's abilities are greatly overstated. It "does not struggle a bit more" with Lati, it absolutely depends on paralysis support to beat it as otherwise they just outspeed and kill Zapdos with Ice Beam (Dragon Claw also does a ton if you're fighting a Refresh Lati). I'm also not clear on how Zapdos beats Blissey, standard Bliss isn't 2HKOed by Thunder after Metal Sound so it can just Toxic and then stall you out + switch to remove your Metal Sound boosts. I guess that's why Sub exists, but Bliss easily breaks the Sub with SToss or Ice Beam. I don't think you can claim its a stallbreaker either since it struggles even harder to do anything when stall usually runs Lati + Bliss and even Groudon. Raikou is better as a pure sweeper since Calm Mind (its boosts are tied to itself), and better Speed + Ice neutrality actually letting it go toe-to-toe with Lati. It's only worth using over Kou if you really need the Ground immunity (even then your team probably has Ogre + Lati for Grounds already soooooo.........)

Steelix does not beat Lati@s 1vs1, Ice Beam is a clean 2HKO while CB Double-Edge fails to OHKO (doesn't come close).

I'll address Registeel and Metagross later when I have more time.

 

[MMII]

okay for claydol, those are fair points

Steelix can just Boom on the Lati@s, or Double Edge if they were weakened enough by Kyogre Surfs. Either way, it handles the Lati twins far better than Skarmory does. (which was only a side point btw, you haven't addressed how Steelix is checking a shit ton of physical threats and hitting back hard)

Blissey run Icy Wind so that they don't lose to CM Taunt Mewtwo, SToss is pretty useless for the most part. (I guess it punishes Forrtress/Skarmory for dropping full layers?) Ice Beam is only relevant for CM Blissey, who still loses cause Ice Beam doesn't KO Zapdos unless it has lost like half its HP while Thunder 2HKOs after Metal Sound. (which you will be eating if you stay in to Ice Beam Zapdos) You also make it sound like it's hard to paralyze a Lati twin when you have Thunder. You also glossed the points where Zapdos can actually check Pokemon. (Do you really think a team with just Kyogre and Latias is enough to beat a Groudon? Salac would like to have a word with you in that case) btw, I wouldn't insist so much on comparing it to Raikou, I only did so to illustrate the similarities and how both Pokemon have plenty over the rest of C rank to justify a bump.

get online and fight me btw

 

[Fireburn]

You also glossed the points where Zapdos can actually check Pokemon. (Do you really think a team with just Kyogre and Latias is enough to beat a Groudon? Salac would like to have a word with you in that case) btw, I wouldn't insist so much on comparing it to Raikou, I only did so to illustrate the similarities and how both Pokemon have plenty over the rest of C rank to justify a bump.

get online and fight me btw

Zapdos actually loses to SubSalac Groudon (which runs Jolly) unless it runs Timid lol. It can SD on the switch and proceed to 2HKO you with HP Ghost while you can't OHKO it back with HP Ice (it caps at 60%, these calcs use the EV spread you listed in your teambuilding competition submission).

+2 Groudon Hidden Power Ghost vs. Zapdos: 194-229 (60.4 - 71.3%)
Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. Groudon: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%)

Any Groudon set with Rock Slide beats Zapdos as well, you're mostly limited to coming in on banded EQs or picking off weakened ones. Overall it's a pretty bad Groudon check, and it can't really check much of anything other than CB Flying moves which Raikou can do as well. Granted, Raikou is much more scared of Earthquake, but it's faster than Lugia so it can actually kill it without taking a second hit first. Neither are particularly reliable CB Ho-Oh/Ray checks either as CB Shadow Ball/ESpeed 2HKOes both of them lol. What's left then?

Neither Raikou or Zapdos are particularly great checks to much, but as a sweeper, Raikou is more effective due to higher Speed + Ice neutrality giving it a better matchup against Lati@s and making it tougher to revenge kill in general. Zapdos fits the description of C-rank well - mostly outclassed as a pure sweeper by Raikou, but has the Ground-immunity + somewhat better Bliss matchup niche that makes it worth using on certain teams.

Steelix can just Boom on the Lati@s, or Double Edge if they were weakened enough by Kyogre Surfs. Either way, it handles the Lati twins far better than Skarmory does. (which was only a side point btw, you haven't addressed how Steelix is checking a shit ton of physical threats and hitting back hard)

Handling Lati@s better than Skarm doesn't mean Steelix is any good at handling them in general lol. Steelix takes a LOT of damage from Ice Beam even with 252 SDef EVs (Modest Latios does 60-71, if it has a CM boost you just die lol). It can force them out in an emergency, sure, but saying it beats them 1v1 is an exaggeration because it doesn't (Boom isn't always an option if they still have their CB bird/sball left!).

 

[MMII]

My EV spread is bad, I didn't realize it was outsped by Salac Gdon preboost. Just take out of spatk evs til you have 232 ev in speed. (which is like 40 so very small difference in the damage calcs)

Zapdos comes in on: Sacred Fire (although fuck Burns), HP Flying, and Earthquake then proceeds to outspeed and blast Ho-Oh with Thunder. It also doesn't remotely die to Sball (even if it hurts) and since you outspeed.... (you even can take an Sball and come back in later on HP Flying or a Scared Fire that burns)

For Rayquaza: Zapdos comes in on HP Ghost, Earthquake, HP Flying, Overheat, and EQ. Espeed beats it but it doesn't OHKO it and that's got a ton of resists to be pivoting on so Zapdos is still an ultra safe initial switch. Again Zapdos outspeeds and OHKOs. DD Ray also loses pretty hard to Zapdos as his Espeed doesn't OHKO unboosted.

Certainly not a hard wall but its a very reliable check in that it requires next to no prediction and can come in more than once. (very often if you are good at predicting)

Also, even if you fight Rock Slide Groudon, as long as you come in on Earthquake (it's only STAB) you will beat it if its at around 85%. You also can emergency check them by RKing it once it reaches around 50% thanks to being faster and HP Ice. So, it loses to one specific Groudon set that it can actually beat in one-on-one situations with a small amount of prior damage. (and it can create those situations by coming in on its strongest move, you know the one physical move it has with a BP greater than 75) Certainly not a hard counter but definitely a Groudon check.




Why are you insisting on the lati twins matchup when I've stated repeatedly that that is just an additional benefit to using a Pokemon that's supposed to be eating Sballs, Body Slams, Aeroblasts, Meteor Mashes, Explosions, Rock Slides, and even some Earthquakes with absolute ease and punishing with one of the least prediction reliant Choice Band attacks. Oh, and it rapes CM Jirachi. (the bane of bad rain teams)

 

[zf]

Dugtrio is really bad, imo. All it does for the team is *try* to trap Steel-types but even with CB, max attack, Adamant, STAB Earthquake it ohkos none of them (Magneton and Aggron being the sole exceptions) and it's shit tier bulk means you can only bring it in on a double or something. Literally every Steel-type OHKOs Dugtrio with exception to Registeel, who wins with Curse. Add onto that the fact that Steel-types aren't going to be the only Lati@s checks on the team and it becomes even harder to justify Dugtrio. Oh, and then you remember Magneton exists.

Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Jirachi: 362-426 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Adamant Dug vs 252 HP / 68 Def Rachi)
Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Jirachi: 387-456 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Adamant Dug vs 252 HP / 0 Def Rachi)

Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Registeel: 275-324 (75.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Adamant Dug vs 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel)

Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Blissey: 623-733 (89.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Adamant Dug vs 188 HP / 68 Def Blissey; Icy Wind/Seismic Toss don't 2HKO)

It's not like any of these mons are checking a Lati twin after taking an EQ and some won't even trade with Dugtrio (Curse Registeel, SDef Rachi, Support Bliss). Obviously, Dugtrio isn't removing every Lati check out there. It can't trap Lax / Regice / Deo-A but removing two of the best Lati checks in Bliss / Rachi is niche no other mon has and makes it worthy of a rank somewhere in B simply because it can rip certain defensive cores to shreds.

 

[MMII]

I use 252 def Blissey cause anymore than 252 calm and you are wasting EVs imo. That shit just clicks Toxic when you come in and Softboiled stalls you out.

Rachi just clicks Ice Punch.

I mean sure you can predict around that stuff, I guess. But that is so horribly niche, like I'd be afraid to even bring that to a counter team just because I'd need to make hard reads on top of not being even sure I'll nail all I need to. I'd see it in a later gen meta where shit is decided by do-or-die plays but I'd largely prefer just using good mons and outplaying the guy over the course of the game rather than one yolo switch. (and if I can't do that then fuck me)


I guess it's enough to be mentioned, I mean fucking Salamence and Wobbuffet are on the list but I really wouldn't stick it any higher than C rank. You don't even get the advantage of trapping other mons cause so much is ground immune. It's just a bad Magneton in my book but eh.

 

[zf]

I use 252 def Blissey cause anymore than 252 calm and you are wasting EVs imo. That shit just clicks Toxic when you come in and Softboiled stalls you out.

Rachi just clicks Ice Punch.

I mean sure you can predict around that stuff, I guess. But that is so horribly niche, like I'd be afraid to even bring that to a counter team just because I'd need to make hard reads on top of not being even sure I'll nail all I need to. I'd see it in a later gen meta where shit is decided by do-or-die plays but I'd largely prefer just using good mons and outplaying the guy over the course of the game rather than one yolo switch. (and if I can't do that then fuck me)

CB Duggy

Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Toxic

The above spread is what I've been running on CB Dug. 188+ SpA Jirachi Ice Punch only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO and if you run that spread, you lose the utility of spe on cm rachi. You also 2HKO all Blissey variants bar 252 HP / 252 Def Bold and even then it's a game of rolls in the Dug users favor, so bringing it in on anything that's not Ice Beam, Icy Wind, or Toxic means you win. Generally, it's not extremely hard to force Bliss into a situation where it needs to heal and that's when Dug comes in for free and kills it. +1 Registeel also isn't going to OHKO w/ anything bar Explosion and is 2HKO'd in return. You come in on everything Rachi has except B-Slam and trap it. The same goes for Registeel. It's a lot more consistent than you give it credit for and losing an integral Lati check or general special wall can very well end the game on the spot. B rank please

 

[MMII]

You can't come in on Wish either because then it just trades and heals. (Rachi and Blissey) I'm not sure how you force Blissey to Soft-Boiled early-game when Modest Latios's +1 Thunder doesn't even break 35% on 0/252+ (also, you only get a 80% chance to 2HKO +1 Registeel which is lol imo and that's with a lazy bad spread meanwhile unboosted EQ 2HKO)

I'm just not seeing what it has over Magneton besides beating Blissey kinda, sorta. (you have to predict the Soft-Boiled all while hiding your Dugtrio so that she might actually do it in a predictable manner)

Seems like the epitome of a counterteam gimmick but different styles I guess *shrug*


(btw, if trapping a blissey/rachi ends the game on the spot then the team was ass or it was late-game because mono-latias/thunder latios already beats them respectively)

 

[shrang]

Too bad MM2 get shrekt by Wobb + Duggy + Linoone :P

 

[MMII]

hmmmm


latias, latios, kyogre, duggy, steel-type, lax seems to be the only build that would justify Dugtrio. You'd need double lati for trapping a single lati check to have decent chances at paying off. Kyogre cause gdon would be redundant. Lax so you don't lose to Mewtwo and then Steel-type cause those things are good! (boom, body slam, sball, aeroblasts, etc you know the deal)


thoughts?

 

[Fireburn]

I moved Raikou up to B- rank. Not sure about the others yet, they could use a bit more discussion (namely Zapdos and Duggy).

 

[MMII]

Got another controversial suggestion. I'd disagree with it myself if it was two weeks ago. Jirachi should drop, imo.

Why?

Because it's not actually as good a Lati@s check as you would think.

evidence

252 TIMID Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 252/252+ Jirachi: 141-167 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 72% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 252/252+ Jirachi: 155-183 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 252/252+ Jirachi: 212-250 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 252/252+ Jirachi: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 196-231 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 215-254 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery

252+ Soul Dew Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252/252+ Jirachi: 123-145 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Soul Dew Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 155-183 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you can't already see what I'm getting at, Jirachi, without Protect, is a shaky check to Thunder Latios even if it runs maximum SpDef investment. If you come in on Thunder you either click Wish and die to two more Thunders before Jirachi can benefit from it, or you attack/switch and die the next time you come in on Latios Thunder. (Unless you managed to hit him with Thunder/Body Slam as he decided to stay in and you get the 60% para. You'll still die from the follow up Thunder, assuming no double FP, but at least the Latios is paralyzed.)

Oh, and don't forget those Thunders have a 30% para chance!


Now, Jirachi does win (sorta) if it comes in on Ice Beam, or if it's running Protect (hope for no Thunder para -> FP of course), or if it's fighting sun Latios and has max spdef investment. However, that means that you predict a 50/50, give up a moveslot, or luck out in a matchup (that'll have Groudon so not really).

Lastly, Jirachi "winning" is really just landing a 60% paralysis on the Latios so that a teammate can kill it and it's less of a pest in general. Jirachi can't actually kill Latios without CM + Ice Punch (which means you have no Protect).


To put things plainly: If you want Jirachi to properly check Lati twins, you need to run a dedicated set consisting of Protect, Wish, and probably Toxic/Body Slam + Light Screen/somethingelseidk. Which means that your Jirachi is not going to be terribly threatening as much as an annoying status/wish bot which is cool on stall but not much else. (except there's also Blissey) CM Jirachi will not cut it (except as an emergency check), that set is only good for breaking (bad) stall. (ie: no Ground-types)

Oh, and secondary Psychic-typing means no Shadow Ball resist.





Jirachi is a Pokemon that is mostly outclassed by Blissey (who can also run an effective CM set that DOES check the Lati twins) and not nearly as diverse as one would assume. It also lacks qualities that other Steel-types provide further damaging the niche it would otherwise have.


As for the actual placement, I'm not quite sure how far it should drop. You could maybe just switch places with Blissey and call it a day but Blissey isn't quite splashable enough to be A+ rank, imo. Even its CM set is still relatively easy to punish.

 

[Minority]

I also think that Jirachi should be lowered to A. It can't really switch well into Thunder Latios and even with max SpD you are still getting hammered. It also is a big Groudon magnet even with Ice Punch, which is bad considering that SD Groudon is one of, if not the most dangerous offensive threat in the meta. CM Rachi does stallbreak rather well, particularly against rain teams, however lately I've struggled to get it onto offensive builds. It's a great mon for sure, being one of the few things able to stop any Deoxys-A variant and being able to check most Mewtwo, but it doesn't feel like it's in the same class as Snorlax or worthy of putting over highly effective utility mons like Blissey and Forretress.

If having only 2 Pokemon in A+ rank is aesthetically displeasing, bump Ho-Oh up to A+ which I can elaborate more on if needed.

 

[Aberforth]

I dont personally understand why kabutops is ranked in the same rank as Omastar, I believe that the Lord Helix should be ranked one sub rank higher due to greater bulk as well as getting spikes to punished the forced switch in to the thing that walls it on the opponents team. Kabutops encounters too much resistance from Groudon, registeel, basically all bulky steel types resist it, and it is forced to run HP bug/ghost if it wants to hit the latis, as well as doing jack all vs kyogre.

Omastar admittedly cant do much more to them, but it has a way of punishing the switches into those mons by way of spikes, as well as having the advantage of being able to actually take advantage of the weather of its preference, because of water being a special attacking type, as well as much higher base power moves (hydro pump compared to rock slide).

Kabutops to B, Omastar to stay B+.

 

[MMII]

Kabutops sets:
Slide, HP Ground, Spin, Double Edge @CB
Slide, HP Ground, SD, Spin @ Lum Berry

(at least these are the sets I've had success with)

-Omastar has more bulk
Granted but I don't see where that ends up terribly relevant. If you have specific examples I'd appreciate.

-Omastar has Spikes
Yes, but Kabutops has Rapid Spin which is even rarer. (only other options are Forretress, kinda-sorta Claydol, and hipsters)

-Kabutops has to run HP Ghost/Bug
Not true.

calcs

Choice Band Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 252/0 Latias: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Choice Band Kabutops Double-Edge vs. 252/0 Latias: 215-254 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Choice Band Kabutops Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252/0 Latias: 253-298 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Choice Band Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 4/0 Latios: 222-262 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Choice Band Kabutops Double-Edge vs. 4/0 Latios: 238-280 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Choice Band Kabutops Hidden Power Ghost vs. 4/0 Latios: 278-328 (92 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+2 Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 252/0 Latias: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Kabutops Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252/0 Latias: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 4/0 Latios: 298-351 (98.6 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

HP Ghost doesn't really provide anything besides coin flips vs Latios/bulky Latios for the CB/SD Kabutops. Omastar definitely struggles more with the Lati Twins than HP Ghost-less Kabutops does. (who are immune to Spikes)


-Kabutops struggles with Groudon, Steel-types, and Kyogre.
Not really. CB Double Edge 3HKOs Groudon, although the SD set definitely struggle more. CB HP Ground 2HKOs every Steel-type not named Steelix. (Maybe Registeel as well) Forry and Skarm dislike Rock Slides, especially when they can flinch and all those two can do back is lay Spikes. (which Kabutops can Rapid Spin away) Phys Def Kyogre is 3HKO'd by CB Rock Slide / Double Edge while max HP Kyogre is 2HKO'd by those two moves.

Kabutops and Omastar are both Swift Swimmers that provide different hazard utilities as well as clean under different conditions. Both are good at what they do as they can easily force switches and Rapid Spin users/Ghost-types will not be switching into Omastar/Kabutops. They can both weaken their own checks. I think B+ fits both as they are fantastic mons that are reliant on weather conditions to function. (well, Kabutops could run a fast spread to creep all the slow Ubers pokes outside rain)


As for Ho-Oh to A+. I dislike it being motivated by A+ being short on mons. Honestly, I wouldn't see a problem with having only Snorlax in A+. As for other reasons to bump Ho-Oh, I'm not quite sure yet. He does require sun builds to dedicate a slot to handling him. (usually a Ho-Oh of their own so they have a SF switch-in, lol) On the other hand, it doesn't really check much besides DClaw Latias (needs CB tho), Groudon without Rock Slide, punishing Steel-types, and helps with opposing Ho-Oh on dedicated sun teams. I guess it also emergency checks Mewtwo and can play coin flips with Thunder users. I can honestly see it going both ways but I'd rather have some discussion on it first cause Firebum has a Ho-Oh bias. oO (I'll say nothing, though, if you guys are okay with Ho-Oh trading places with Mewtwo)

 

[Fireburn]

I bumped Jirachi down to A rank. Keep discussing!

 

[shrang]

We need more Seaking pls

 

[Alert to Sounds]

Salamence in C, Shedinja in B+

This is like, Bizarro World Ubers