AAA Almost Any Ability

[PQRDG]

Do you guys like charts? I like charts. Here is a chart reflecting the difference between the Mini-VR Update and the Full VR Update just released.

Our New Top 23 Abilities

Name	Old Count (Mini-VR)	New Count (New VR)
Regenerator	27	24
Magic Guard	12	17
Magic Bounce	12	13
Adaptability	13	11
Tinted Lens	11	9
Sheer Force	10	8
Desolate Land	8	7
Galvanize	7	7
Triage	8	7
Dauntless Shield	7	6
Flash Fire	7	6
Refrigerate	7	6
Unaware	5	6
Primordial Sea	6	5
Volt Absorb	5	5
Bulletproof	3	4
Delta Stream	4	4
Intimidate	3	4
Levitate	3	4
Mold Breaker	4	4
Tough Claws	5	4
Water Absorb	6	4
Psychic Surge	2	3

Edit: apparently the Mini-VR Update information was changed after I made my previous chart, since my numbers seem to be a bit off between the two charts. I may have missed a few Pokémon my first time through. Either way, this should be a more accurate reflection of the information.

 

[Isaiah]

Heads up that Hydreigon's link in the VR post is currently broken.

Edit to add: feel free to delete this post or let me know when it's fixed and I'll delete it.

Fixed. Nice catch!

Edit: Going to include this here because I keep forgetting to post, but...

Yesterday in the OM Room on PS!, we held our first ever Community Create A Team for AAA!
Thanks to everyone that contributed to discussion :]
Here's the team (Technician Beat Up Weavile): https://pokepast.es/4de29f474e62e93a

 

[Isaiah]

For anyone who wasn't already aware, we now have our very own Resources thread! You can view the Viability Rankings and Speed Tiers there, and it's also a place for discussion/nomination of changes to those as well. Just figured I should post this for anyone wondering where everything went to :]

 

[Overwatched72]

Magnet Pull in AAA​

Before I begin, I want to point out that this discussion only applies to AAA-like OMs (stAAAb, cAAAmo and all the metas you can find an A to triple), but I will mention BH once or twice. Also, I’m not the best player in AAA. My record is #4 on the ladder and I haven’t played the tier since december, but I still have quite some knowledge about the tier and the meta so this post is just the thoughts of a random dude with relative talent. I do not pretend to hold the absolute truth, just a reasoning that deserves attention.

Our story begins a couple of years ago, when Wobbufet (along with Wynaut) got banned because of it’s ability shadow tag. It allowed it to trap any pokémon, preventing it’s opponent from switching. The decision was taken to ban it because the mechanic of an ability trapping the opponent was considered uncompetitive. (I know this will be brought up so I’m saying it here: the infinite battle if 2 Wobbufets happened to face each other is not relevant here because this was fix in the following gen so shadow tag was immune to itself and shadow tag is still banned to this day in OU today despite that fix). In generation 6, a similar ability was banned for the same reason: arena trap. Arena trap only trapped grounded opponents, so flying type and levitating pokémons were immune to it. Despite that, trapping an opponent by simply switching in a pokémon was considered uncompetitive, since it took the basic principles of checks and counters and threw them out the window. Opponent heatran is causing problem to your team? If there is no hazard, just click dugtrio and focus sash will allow you to live 1 attack, if there are hazards, get a safe switch by some way and once you successfully brought your dugtrio is in the place, click eq or reversal to kill the heatran and congratulations, you cleared the way for your entire team while giving your opponent no counter option. Now let’s say that you had a very low hp tyranitar on the field and the opponent has it’s heatran. Your opponent should take the easy kill, but it can’t since if it kills your ttar, you revenge kill its heatran with dugtrio, so you have to let the opposing ttar live, switch out your heatran and choose something that will eat a fat stone edge in the face.

Now, why this whole story, you may ask; I did even mention magnet pull yet. I’m coming to that. I want to point out certain traits about arena trap first. This ability was restricted to 1 pokémon (nobody cares about Trapinch). Dugtrio has ridiculously low bulk, so much so that it’s hard to find a pokemon UNable to ohko it without sash. It also has a limited movepool and generic ground type. Despite all that, arena trap was banned and Dugtrio is destined to suck without it. Now magnet pull. Again, it’s limited to 1.5 pokémons: Magnezone and Magneton (nobody cares about Meltan) but I’ll only mention Magnezone because they both worked the exact same way before gen8 and Magneton joined Dugtrio in gen8 without hp fire and body press. Magnezone’s magnet pull only affects steel type. So, similarly to Dugtrio, the opponent knows from the moment he sees a Magnezone in your team, he needs to be careful of his steel types. Only certain of his steel types actually because Aegislash line are immune to body press, Excadrill will murder it before it does anything, Kartana will kicks its ass too. But this awareness only comes when the opponent sees a Magnezone in your team. But now, what happens if any pokémon can have Magnet Pull? Is it reasonable to assume any fighting/fire/ground type has magnet pull the moment you put a steel type in your team, the same way we assume every Magnezone has magnet pull? Of course this is not reasonable. If you do not assume that, the moment the opponent sends out its magnet pull Cinderace, Moltres, Excadrill, *insert any mon that kicks steel type ass*, welp that’s too bad, because there was no way for you to know that they were magnet pull, and now you are trap, with no counter option and your steel type is already dead. The opponent is now free to either kill you right away, or, if you cannot touch it/can’t pivot, he can set up its pokemon and instead of killing just your steel type, it can now sweep you whole team if it’s weakened enough. So if we come back to the Heatran vs Tyranitar exemple earlier. Now instead of worrying about the Dugtrio, the Heatran user needs to figure out if your Swampert is going to trap him or maybe is it your Kommo-o? Nop, none of them was and you might have lost the match because you didn't want to risk your Heatran and had to make risky plays and when you anticipated the Swampert magnet pull and sent out your Noivern, the Tyranitar stayed and stone edged your face. Or maybe you didn't expect that Swampert would run magnet pull, so you killed the ttar, and boom, Swampert trapped you and you can kiss your heatran goodbye.

Swampert magnet pull sucks, you might tell me. Nobody runs swampert magpul. That's right. And this is exactly why it'll work. Because no one can afford to assume every ground/fire/fighting type runs magnet pull because this would render your steel type unusable, and everytime you see the trapped warning, if you aren't both faster and able to pivot, that's too bad your pokemon is dead and there was no realistic thing you could do.

Some may argue that magnet pull is inconsistent and that if it's that much of a problem, I can just run shed shell on every steel type. To that I reply that if the strategy is so inconsistent, why is the (pretty much only) counter-option you propose even less consistent? If there is no consistent counter-option to magnet pull, what makes it inconsistent? Lack of counter-option was precisely why arena trap was banned so why is it different now? The fact that it is limited to steel types doesn't change that there is nothing one can do once it is trapped. It is more limited, but just as uncompetitive. Not running any steel type is hardly possible and incredibly restrictive. Magnet pull is as consistent at steel type are, and the fact that the vast majority of teams run at least 1 steel type says a lot about its consistency

So this is why I suggested to ban magnet pull in AAA. As I said before, it is unreasonable to assume every fighting/fire/ground type runs magnet pull the same way we assume every Magnezone has magnet pull. The restriction to just one (usable) pokémon in the game is what makes magpul balanced in vanilla. Balanced Hackmon banned the ability because of a similar reasoning after all.

-Overwatched72, aka emile blue

P.S: I'm sorry if the post was long but it was important to me to give context and background to the topic. I don't like to make just short posts, because I feel like they lack content. And again, I do not pretend to be any pro at AAA. I'm just a random dude with substancial knowledge about the meta from gen8 release to end of 2020 but since I dropped the OM to try other things, I missed lots of stuff, but from what i can tell and have been told, there is nothing relevant to this topic that I missed. That being said, that's it for me. I'll see y'all next time.

 

[Isaiah]

Hey everyone :]

Even though there's already a suspect test on Noivern currently underway, the council decided to open the floor for potential tiering action. Following an increase in both the discussion and use of Magnet Pull, we held a vote on whether or not it's deemed a signficant enough threat to quickban at this time:

Results

Member	Ban	Do Not Ban	Abstain
Think		X
jrdn		X
xavgb (stresh)			X
shiloh		X
The Number Man	X

Without a majority vote, Magnet Pull will remain in Almost Any Ability. That doesn't eliminate the possibility of a suspect test or potential quickban later on, however.

The Metagame:
Recently, there has been a lot of back and forth discussion over different threats in the metagame and whether or not it's worth taking action on any of them. Some of those include:

Click to view

Blacephalon: Magic Guard makes Life Orb/Specs-boosted Mind Blown have zero drawback, and it can run coverage (Shadow Ball, Knock Off, Psyshock[, Trick]) to cripple pretty much every switchin in some way.

Click to view

Gengar: Barring the blobs (Blissey/Chansey), not a whole lot can switch into Sheer Force Gengar, a +2 Triage Gengar that now carries its own speed control in Giga Drain, or the threat of a Choice Specs Adaptability one.

Click to view

Genesect: Shift Gear sets have the potential sweep many teams when given a free turn, with various abilities like Tinted Lens, Sheer Force [+ Life Orb], and even some -ate abilities like Galvanize seeing use.

Click to view

Weavile: Incredibly difficult to reliably prepare for all of its sets (Adaptability, [Swords Dance +] Magic Guard, Technician) without using a very selective group of Pokemon (e.g. Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Physically Defensive Steel-types).

What are your thoughts on the Pokemon mentioned above? Are there are any Pokemon or abilities you think are worth noting or addressing? As usual, any and all discussion is welcome :D

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Disappointing that we still can't muster the votes to get rid of something as dumb as magnet pull but c'est la vie.

Blacephalon is probably the strongest, most self sufficient breaker we have. It's like all the other dumb attackers we have like noivern, except it can knock off its own checks, and doesn't need hazards cleared, and resists priority, and doesn't need to set up, although it can. It also has a scarf set which is legitimately really good and underrated but sadly kind of overshadowed by MGLO and SPecs. It's hardly impossible to revenge kill but its surprisingly good defensive typing means stuff like triage, espeed, and glide don't really work, so you need to run faster attackers and at base 105 speed that's like 10 mons - 5 if we only count those that ohko it. There's also a lot of unexplored room to innovate with lures, but doesn't use any of them, which says a lot to me about how little need there is. Normally on offensive mons they're either stuck like noivern, with only one set they can run, or gengar, which has like 5 sets it can run to pick and choose which of its already limited counterplay it wants to allow. However, despite having all the tools it needs to do the latter itself blace hardly even bothers with it. I think it's probably the most braindead offensive mon we have now, only really rivaled by Noivern vs Offense, and would not mind seeing it go.

Gengar can't beat everything, but it can beat anything. Unaware chansey? Hypnosis + Focus Blast. Bounce Chansey? Sheer Force Life Orb. Faster offensive threats like Barraskewda? Immunity abilities or Triage. It's even faster than Blacephalon and has fewer counters, but makes up for it somewhat by being more prediction reliant and requiring a bit more support to make work. I think it's less dumb than blace, at least atm, but we'll see.

Genesect feels like an ass mon; that is, it really suffers from ability slot syndrome. It really wants to run flash fire and sheer force and tinted lens and regen and -ate all one on set and cries because it can't, and in practice it doesn't really autowin much of anything except against really formulaic (and dated) teams. The Sheer Force set is worth respecting and a few of the others are decent lures but I think overall the impact it has is vastly overstated and it's not actually broken in practice and definitely doesn't have the same impact in the builder that something like Noivern or Blace does.

Weavile could be completely bonkers if the metagame were any more kind to it but checks to it like Fini are not just super easy to fit on eliterally every team but all but mandatory for other reasons. Definitely worth looking at if the meta shakes up in the future, like after some bans, but as is it's fine.

 

[Comemon]

2 possibly trash sets i enjoy using
Oh (Genesect) @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Fell Stinger
- Iron Head
- Assurance
this is my genesect set. shift gear + fell stinger brings +4 attack and +2 speed to an already powerful mon. loses to any fire move if it cant ohko tho.

calcs

+4 252+ Atk Technician Genesect Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 163-192 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Technician Genesect Fell Stinger vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 249-294 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252+ Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Stakataka: 168-198 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Technician Genesect Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 220-260 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Technician Genesect Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

that is a rather large special attack stat you got there
Rock Star (Toxtricity) @ Throat Spray
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Sludge Bomb
- Volt Switch
this fixes toxtricitys only real weakness. its speed. with unburden you get a +1 in spa and double the speed, outspending almost every mon in the meta. overdrive > thunder because it activates throat spray

calcs2

+1 252+ SpA Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 288-342 (94.7 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 229-270 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

[Osake]

Calcs for gene aren’t really usefull because you need to kil a mon to be at +4, pex can just haze before you, and you can’t defeat corvi or any fire mon as you said so tbh even if gene has a lot of threatfull sets this oke isn’t

For Toxtri, I like the idea and I like the mon, but 1) you can also play shift gear to boost ur speed 2) toxtri problem isn’t only his speed but also the fact that it’s hard to beat the common spdef walls with him such as Blissey/Regenvest Vally/Nihilego or things like that. It’s still an interesting idea tho, and toxtri is a pretty fun mon to play, you should try it.

 

[PandaDoux]

Before reading this post, please note that my English is pretty bad and I used Google Translate / DeepL to help me, so don't be surprised if some sentences are badly formulated.

French

Bonjour, pour mon premier poste dans ce thread je voudrais partager mon point de vue sur ce tier en ce moment.
Le tier est complètement cassé.
Il y a trop de menaces à gérer pour qu'un build ne se fasse détruire par une menace du tier.
Par exemple j'ai remarqué que chaque sample avait plusieurs menaces courantes qui détruisent plus ou moins la team :
MGuard Latias Balance by Think
Genesect / Blacephalon / Zarude Band / Archeops
DLand Heatran Stall by Quantum Tesseract
Noivern / Genesect Flash Fire / Alakazam
DragMag by Quantum Tesseract
Weavile / PsySurge Users / Archeops Band / Blacephalon Specs / Genesect Flash Fire / Gengar Sheer Force
Tinted Genesect Offense by PandaDoux
PsySurge Users / Blacephalon Specs / Heatran
MGLO Arcanine Hazard Stack by xavgb
PsySurge Users / Terrakion / Archeops / Blacephalon / Genesect Tinted Lens / Cobalion
ScizorBro Balance by xavgb
Terrakion / Tapu Bulu / Blacephalon Specs / Zarude Band
ChompVally Balance by The Dragon Master
Blacephalon Specs / Genesect Flash Fire / Weavile / PsySurge Users / Terrakion / Zarude Band
Triage Lele Balance by Atha
PsySurge Users / Blacephalon Specs / Genesect / Tapu Bulu

Tous les Pokémon que je viens de citer sont A Rank ou plus dans le VR.
Je ne suis pas en train de dire que les samples sont mauvaises, je veux justement montrer qu'il y a un énorme problème dans le tier en terme de build, les teams de très bons joueurs AAA se font quand même détruire par une ou plusieurs menaces pourtant courantes du tier. Et je ne parle ici uniquement de Pokémon seuls alors imaginez avec Magnet Pull.

Chazm a suggéré de bannir plein de Pokémon d'un coup, puis d'en unban certains lorsque le tier sera stable, je suis totalement d'accord avec cette proposition, cela fera avancé les choses beaucoup plus rapidement plutôt que de suspect un à un les Pokémon banworthy du tier.

J'aimerais maintenant dire ce que je pense qu'il faudrait bannir ou du moins surveiller.

A Bannir :

Genesect

Ce Pokémon est tellement stupide, selon le set il peut littéralement 6-0 une team, ce Pokémon me fait beaucoup penser à Magearna, on a beau avoir 3 "checks" différents de Genesect, il arrivera quand même à être extrêmement dangereux pour une team voire à sweep, en plus d'être vraiment versatile avec un nombre énorme de talents et de moves possibles avec cette horreur, Sweeper Physique / Spécial / Mixe, le set le plus dangereux de Genesect, avant je mettais juste un type feu car je pensais que Sheer Force était le set le plus fort, puis j'ai découvert Tinted Lens et je me suis mis à mettre des Silvally Flamethrower pour le gérer, et maintenant j'ai découvert Flash Fire, qui permet de se set-up pas une, ni deux, mais trois fois et donc, juste sweep une team entière s'il n'y a pas de Pokémon capable de tanker ce monstre à +3 et lui faire au moins 90% pour s'en débarasser.
Shift Gear 1 -> l'adversaire mets sa réponse avec un move feu
Shift Gear 2 -> il fait le move feu
Shift Gear 3 -> il switch pour mettre un autre Pokémon ou il vous laisse vous placer tranquillement à l'infini
Même Heatran perd le duel contre Genesect Flash Fire.
252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Harsh Sunshine: 188-222 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 113-133 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Genesect n'a pas les mêmes checks selon le set, set que vous ne pouvez pas savoir, donc vous ne pouvez pas avoir de gameplan lorsque vous voyez un Genesect dans l'équipe adverse.
Je suis d'accord que mettre Genesect sur le terrain est plus compliqué, mais je n'ai pas besoin de poser Genesect sur le terrain une seule fois pour mettre une pression énorme à mon adversaire qui fera donc des plays safes, s'il a le malheur de laisser Genesect entrer sur le terrain, le match est terminé.
Par Exemple, si j'ai Terrakion + Genesect dans ma team, et qu'en face il y a un Corviknight, lorsque je pose mon Terrakion sur le terrain, soit mon adversaire pose Corviknight et je double Switch sur mon Genesect en l'anticipant, et ensuite je peux placer une Shift Gear gratuitement pendant que mon oppo ne saura pas quoi faire, soit mon adversaire a tellement peur du Genesect qu'il n'osera pas mettre souvent son Corviknight, et je pourrais bourriner les attaques avec mon Terrakion, et dans ce cas gagner car Terrakion fera presque un kill à chaque entrée, mais la victoire sera surtout grâce à Genesect qui aura mis la pression à mon adversaire sans venir une seule fois sur le terrain.

On peut aussi jouer d'autres sets de Genesect, Scarf Regenerator qui permet de venir pivoter sur énorméments de menaces et de revenge kill beaucoup de choses, Band/Specs sont aussi envisageables.

Conclusion : Genesect n'a pas de Pokémon pouvant venir sur tous ses sets possibles, mais plutôt plusieurs checks à certains sets, le problème c'est que comme on ne peut pas savoir le set de Genesect, on ne peut pas savoir quoi faire face à Genesect qui entre sur le terrain, je dois mettre mon check Tinted Lens ? mon check Sheer Force ? ou c'est peut-être un Flash Fire donc je devrais mettre mon Pokémon offensif directement plutôt que de poser Heatran d'abord ? Votre gameplan à ce moment là sera complètement aléatoire.
Noivern

Actuellement Suspect Test, j'espère vraiment que ce Pokémon sera banni, encore un Pokémon complètement débile, chaque team n'ayant pas Blissey/Chansey Regenerator ou un RegenVest résistant le type Vol se fait automatiquement détruire par ce Pokémon.
Un seul set qui amène pourtant ce Pokémon en S Rank du VR, Choice Specs Aerilate, les dégâts de ce Pokémon sont monstrueux et a montré plusieurs fois que même ses SI les plus forts ont du mal à venir à bout de ce Pokémon. Les dégâts que fait ce Pokémon sont juste monstrueux, pour donner un exemple :

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 191-225 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Il a également accès à Roost pour se soigner et éviter de ne venir que 4 fois à cause des Rocks, mais aussi à Demi-Tour pour garder du momentum et c'est d'ailleurs pour cette raison que je ne compte pas Blissey/Chansey sans Regenerator comme de bons SI Noivern car il n'a qu'à spammer cette attaque afin d'affaiblir les blobs petit à petit et les empêcher de se soigner en mettant une menace physique. Il n'a besoin que de ces 3 attaques, Switcheroo est vraiment situationnel, je n'ai pas envie d'échanger mes Specs même pour recevoir des Boots et handicaper les blobs, et sûrement pas de recevoir une AV.

Il est aussi très difficile à revenge kill car c'est l'un des Pokémon les plus rapides du tier.

Switch Ins : Nihilego / Chansey ou Blissey Regenerator / Silvally-Rock ou Electric AV
Blacephalon

Imaginez Blacephalon avec Magic Guard, qu'est-ce que ça pourrait bien donner ?

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Silvally-Electric: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 315-372 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

Je ne sais pas si j'ai vraiment besoin d'expliquer pourquoi ce Pokémon devrait être banni, et ce n'est qu'ici que le set Specs, un set CM avec la LO peut totalement être envisageable ou encore Scarf pour dépasser et éliminer toutes les menaces offensives du tier. Ses moves de coverages sont parfaits, Psyshock pour Nihilego, Knock Off pour retirer les Boots de Blissey afin d'être sûr de l'éliminer si les Rocks sont posées, ou encore d'enlever le Scarf de Garchomp qui est pourtant son check le plus joué, donc ne plus avoir de check Blacephalon la prochaine fois qu'il vient.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 252-297 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

DLand peut être joué aussi pour venir plus facilement sur le terrain je suppose, mais MGuard reste bien meilleur.
(Pourquoi Sheer Force est mentionné dans le VR ?)

Switch Ins : Flash Fire Mandibuzz ?
Weavile

Ce Pokémon restreint énormément le Teambuild, obligeant Tapu Fini ou Toxapex dans toutes les teams.
Corviknight Intimidate n'est clairement pas un Switch In à Weavile (sauf si vous utilisez Body Press ?).

+1 252 Atk Adaptability Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66 - 78%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 128-152 (45.5 - 54%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 163-193 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Même avec Rocky Helmet, Weavile n'a qu'à vous l'enlevez une première fois avec Knock Off et la deuxième fois que vous viendrez, vous allez prendre environ 70% pendant que votre seul moyen de survivre sera de pivoter sur un Pokémon plus rapide qui ne se fait pas OHKO par Ice Shard à +1 ou un utilisateur de Triage.
Si vous ne vous soignez pas avant que Weavile vienne une deuxième fois, vous avez officiellement perdu car Weavile pourra faire un kill à chaque fois qu'il viendra.

Il fait d'énormes dégâts à beaucoup de Pokémon pourtant bulky, comme sur Corviknight par exemple, et même Tapu Fini peut y rester si c'est un Weavile MGLO PJab.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 281-333 (81.6 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

En plus de ça, c'est le 4ème Pokémon le plus rapide du tier, donc autant dire que les Pokémon capables de le RK sont limités.

Switch Ins : Toxapex / Corviknight ou Skarmory Body Press
Archeops

Ce Pokémon tape beaucoup trop fort pour le tier, 3 sets disponibles, Scarf, Band, LO avec Hone Claws ou Rocks.
Le Scarf permettant de Revenge Kill tous les Pokémon plus rapides que lui qui ne sont déjà pas nombreux comme Tapu Koko.
LO pour éviter de se bloquer sur une attaque en faisant mal à certains Pokémon comme Toxapex.
Il a aussi accès aux Rocks ce qui peut embêter l'adversaire si sa réponse à Archeops est un Pokémon Sol comme Garchomp, ou encore à Hone Claws pour se set-up et éviter de rater les Head Smash.
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 179-212 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o: 224-270 (63.2 - 76.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Le Band est pour moi le meilleur set, il tape si fort que même des Pokémon comme Garchomp ou Corviknight Intimidate ne viennent plus dessus.
252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 201-237 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 180-213 (45 - 53.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

En plus d'avoir accès à U-turn pour garder le momentum et affaiblir Mew.

Switch Ins : Corviknight ou Skarmory Delta Stream / Swampert / Doublade / Hippowdon / Ferrothorn

Heatran

Si ce Pokémon n'est pas encore banni c'est uniquement car Garchomp est extrêmement fort dans le tier, rien d'autre.
Il n'a aucun Switch In ou presque si on enlève Garchomp, les AVs n'ont vraiment pas envie de venir sur Heatran :
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Silvally-Electric in Harsh Sunshine: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Silvally-Electric: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

46% minimum + les dégâts de Earth Power = environ 75% sans compter les possibles Entry Hazards.

Il peut trap énormément de Pokémon comme Blissey/Chansey sans Magic Bounce grâce à Taunt, les types Eau ne sont également pas des SIs à ce machin car il a Solar Beam et que de toute façon il est immunisé au type Eau grâce à DLand.
Il peut aussi utiliser Toxic pour les Immunités Feu comme Zapdos PSea ou Mandibuzz FF.

Switch Ins : Immunités Feu / Garchomp Regenerator

Gengar

Ce Pokémon à tous les outils nécessaires pour passer presque tous ses "Switch Ins".

Blissey / Chansey Regenerator / RegenVest / Garchomp ? Vous pouvez les endormir avec Hypnosis et ainsi placer tranquillement une ou deux Nasty Plot
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 782-923 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 450-529 (107.1 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Blissey / Chansey Magic Bounce ?
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 678-801 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 452-533 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Je sais aussi que le set Triage avec Giga Drain est très populaire pour éviter de se faire Revenge Kill par Weavile un peu affaibli et Barraskewda
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 243-286 (86.4 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 369-437 (140.3 - 166.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Switch Ins : Bulletproof / Garchomp Scarf Regenerator en espérant ne pas dormir 3 tours de suite ??
Psychic Surge

J'ai beau cherché, je n'arrive pas à trouver des Switch In à un Alakazam Specs Psychic Surge à part Jirachi & Mandibuzz, les dégâts sont juste hallucinants.
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 224-264 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 348-409 (49.5 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor in Psychic Terrain: 163-192 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tous les types Acier et Ténèbres se font OHKO ou 2HKO par Focus Blast (ou Fire Blast + Dazzling Gleam pour Azelf) et Trick peut handicaper Mandibuzz aussi.
Et Alakazam n'est pas le seul à faire d'aussi gros dégâts, Azelf peut également en faire autant en plus d'avoir accès à U-turn, donc juste bannir Alakazam est inutile.
Alakazam, Azelf & Mew ont également accès à Nasty Plot pour se placer et prendront un kill à coup sûr.

Switch Ins : Mandibuzz / Jirachi
Volcarona

Volcarona est un énorme problème, surtout lorsque Noivern sera banni (s'il l'est).
Son accès à Quiver Dance le rend presque impossible à Revenge Kill tout en tapant extrêmement fort, il a aussi des moves de coverages pour passer toutes ses réponses les plus communes, Psychic pour Toxapex et Giga Drain pour Tapu Fini et gagner le duel contre Chansey/Blissey sans Unaware.

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 289-341 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Volcarona: 100-100 (32.1 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+4 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 227-269 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO
Giga Drain 32.2 - 38.2% (36.6 - 43.4% recovered)
+4 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 409-484 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vu que Chansey et Blissey ne peuvent que vous 4HKO vous pouvez facilement placer 4 Quiver Dance, une lorsqu'ils viennent sur le terrain, et 3 autres lorsqu'ils font Seismic Toss, ensuite vous récupèrerez assez de PVs pour tanker les Seismic Toss, et lorsque le Chansey est assez affaibli vous pouvez le finir avec Flamethrower. Chansey et Blissey ne peuvent que paralyser Volcarona pour aider les Pokémon offensifs à s'en débarrasser, mais cela laisse quand même à Volcarona 3 Quiver Dance.

Switch Ins : Garchomp Regenerator / Noivern / Talonflame

A Surveiller :
Une fois qu'une bonne partie des Pokémon / Talents cités au-dessus seront bannis, ceux que je vais citer seront probablement très problématiques, même si, qui c'est comment le tier va évoluer.

Triage

Tellement d'utilisateurs de Triage, on en découvre de plus en plus, tous de plus en plus différents, physiques, spéciaux, bulkys, et j'ai peur que nos checks Triage soient de plus en plus rares et que sweep avec ces Pokémon deviennent de plus en plus facile.

Magnet Pull

(All Fire/Ground/Fight Pokemons)

Je suis totalement d'accord avec ce poste.
Pour l'instant, Corviknight Intimidate est partout, donc jouer Magnet Pull + un breaker wall par Corviknight comme Garchomp est extrêmement fort en ce moment, mais je pense que ce n'est qu'une phase, et que le tier changera petit à petit et que ce talent sera de moins en moins fort, mais cela reste quelque chose à surveiller.

Zarude

Son double type Dark/Grass est très fort offensivement, il a très peu de Switch Ins (Kommo-o, Zapdos-Galar, Corviknight Intimidate, Togekiss) et tape très fort sur les Pokémon qui ne résistent pas ses 2 STABs et a aussi accès à Close Combat pour Ferrothorn et Cobalion.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 178-211 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-226 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz n'est pas non plus un Switch In à Zarude s'il n'est pas max Def, et encore, même max Def cela reste assez compliqué car il suffit de l'affaibilir un peu pour qu'il se fasse 2HKO par Zarude.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Mandibuzz: 230-271 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Barraskewda

Je trouve que ce Pokémon a un peu le même problème que Noivern, il force à avoir un Bulky Water dans une team, il peut passer les utilisateurs de Dland avec ses moves de coverages comme Drill Run pour Blacephalon et Heatran, ou Ice Fang pour le Landorus de The Number Man.
Les utilisateurs d'Intimidate peuvent venir dessus mais seront rapidement affaiblis à cause de Flip Turn, surtout s'il y a des Entry Hazards.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 73-87 (18.2 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Environ 30% à Corviknight Intimidate après les Rocks.
En plus d'être le Pokémon le plus rapide du tier ce qui lui permet d'être revenge kill par très peu de choses.


S'il vous plaît, bannissez au moins 2 ou 3 Pokémon avant le début de l'OMPL, je ne veux pas voir de matchs avec un tier aussi cassé.

Hello, for my first post in this thread, i want to share my opinion about the tier atm.
The tier is totally broken.
There are too many threats to deal with for a build not to be destroyed by others threats in the tier.
For example I noticed that each sample had several common threats that more or less destroy the team :
MGuard Latias Balance by Think
Genesect / Blacephalon / Zarude Band / Archeops
DLand Heatran Stall by Quantum Tesseract
Noivern / Genesect Flash Fire / Alakazam
DragMag by Quantum Tesseract
Weavile / PsySurge Users / Archeops Band / Blacephalon Specs / Genesect Flash Fire / Gengar Sheer Force
Tinted Genesect Offense by PandaDoux
PsySurge Users / Blacephalon Specs / Heatran
MGLO Arcanine Hazard Stack by xavgb
PsySurge Users / Terrakion / Archeops / Blacephalon / Genesect Tinted Lens / Cobalion
ScizorBro Balance by xavgb
Terrakion / Tapu Bulu / Blacephalon Specs / Zarude Band
ChompVally Balance by The Dragon Master
Blacephalon Specs / Genesect Flash Fire / Weavile / PsySurge Users / Terrakion / Zarude Band
Triage Lele Balance by Atha
PsySurge Users / Blacephalon Specs / Genesect / Tapu Bulu

All of Pokemons I mentioned are A Rank or higher in VR.
I'm not saying the samples are bad, I just want to show that there is a huge problem in the tier in terms of build, the teams of very good AAA players are still destroyed by one or more common threats from the tier. And I'm only talking about Pokemon alone here so imagine with Magnet Pull.

Chazm suggested banning lots of Pokemons at once, then unban some when the tier is stable, I totally agree with this proposal, it will get things done much faster rather than suspect test the most banwothy Pokemon of the tier.

I would now like to say what I think should be banned or at least watched :

To Ban

To Ban :
Genesect

This Pokémon is so stupid, depending on the set it can literally 6-0 a team, this Pokémon reminds me a lot of Magearna, we may have 3 different "checks" from Genesect, it will still be extremely dangerous for a team even sweep, in addition to being really versatile with a huge number of abilities and moves possible with this horror, Physical / Special / Mixed Sweeper, the most dangerous set of Genesect, before I just put a fire type because I thought that Sheer Force was the strongest set, then I discovered Tinted Lens and I started putting on Silvally Flamethrower to handle it, and now I discovered Flash Fire, which allows you to not set-up one, not twice, but three times and therefore, just sweep an entire team if there is no Pokemon able to tank this monster at +3 and make it at least 90% to get rid of it.
Shift Gear 1 -> opponent putting him fire Pokemon
Shift Gear 2 -> opponent is doing the fire move
Shift Gear 3 -> he switch on another Pokemon or he let you set-up easily to infinity
Even Heatran loses the duel against Genesect Flash Fire.
252+ SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Harsh Sunshine: 188-222 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 113-133 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Genesect doesn't have the same checks depending on the set, which set you can't tell, so you can't have a gameplan when you see a Genesect on the opposing team.
I agree that putting Genesect on the field is more complicated, but I don't need to put Genesect on the field once to put enormous pressure on my opponent who will therefore play safes, if he has the misfortune of letting Genesect enter the field, the match is over.
For example, if I have Zarude + Genesect in my team, and opposite there is a Corviknight, when I put my Zarude on the ground, either my opponent puts Corviknight and I double Switch on my Genesect while anticipating it, and then I can place a Shift Gear for free while my oppo won't know what to do, either my opponent is so scared of the Genesect that he won't dare to put on his Corviknight often, and I could stuff the attacks with my Zarude, and in this case to win because Zarude will make almost a kill with each entry, but the victory will be especially thanks to Genesect which will have put the pressure on my adversary without coming once on the ground.

We can also play other sets of Genesect, Scarf Regenerator which allows to come to turn on a lot of threats and revenge kill many things, Band / Specs are also possible.

Conclusion: Genesect does not have a Pokémon that can come on all its possible sets, but rather several checks in certain sets, the problem is that as we cannot know the set of Genesect, we cannot know what to face to Genesect who enters the field, I have to put my Tinted Lens check? my Sheer Force check? or maybe it's a Flash Fire so I should put my offensive Pokémon directly rather than put down Heatran first? Your gameplan at this point will be completely random.
Noivern

Currently Suspect Testing, I really hope this Pokémon will be banned, another completely stupid Pokémon, each team that does not have Blissey / Chansey Regenerator or a flying resistance AV is automatically destroyed by this Pokémon.
A single set which however brings this Pokémon in S Rank of VR, Choice Specs Aerilate, the damage of this Pokémon is monstrous and has shown several times that even its strongest Switch Ins have difficulty in overcoming this Pokémon. The damage this Pokémon does is just monstrous, to give an example:

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 191-225 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

He also has access to Roost to heal himself and avoid coming only 4 times because of the Rocks, but also to U-turn to keep momentum and that's why I don't count Blissey / Chansey without Regenerator like good Switch In Noivern because it only has to spam this attack in order to weaken the blobs little by little and prevent them from healing by putting a physical threat. He only needs these 3 attacks, Switcheroo is really situational, I don't want to trade my Specs even to receive Boots and handicap blobs, and certainly not to receive AV.

It is also very difficult to revenge kill because it is one of the fastest Pokémon in the tier.

Switch Ins : Nihilego / Chansey or Blissey Regenerator / Silvally-Rock or Electric AV
Blacephalon

Imagine Blacephalon with Magic Guard, what could it be?

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Silvally-Electric: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 315-372 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

I don't know if I really need to explain why this Pokémon should be banned, and it's only here that the Specs set, a CM set with LO can totally be possible or even Scarf to overtake and eliminate all the offensive threats of the tier. His coverage moves are perfect, Psyshock for Nihilego, Knock Off to remove Blissey's Boots to be sure to eliminate him if the Rocks are placed, or to remove Garchomp's Scarf which is however his most check played, so don't have Blacephalon's check the next time he comes.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 252-297 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

DLand can be played too to get onto the field more easily I guess, but MGuard is still much better.

(Why is Sheer Force mentioned in the VR?)

Switch Ins : Flash Fire Mandibuzz ?
Weavile

This Pokémon severely restricts the Teambuild, forcing Tapu Fini or Toxapex in all teams.
Corviknight Intimidate is clearly not a Switch In at Weavile (unless you use Body Press?).

+1 252 Atk Adaptability Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66 - 78%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 128-152 (45.5 - 54%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 163-193 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even with Rocky Helmet, Weavile just has to take it off the first time with Knock Off and the second time you come, you're going to take around 70% while your only way to survive is to pivot on a faster Pokemon that doesn't get OHKO by Ice Shard at +1 or a Triage user.
If you don't heal yourself before Weavile comes a second time, you've officially lost as Weavile will be able to take a kill every time he comes.

It does huge damage to a lot of yet bulky Pokémon, like on Corviknight for example, and even Tapu Fini can be knocked out if it's a Weavile MGLO PJab.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 281-333 (81.6 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

In addition to that, it's the 4th fastest Pokémon of the tier, so as much to say that the Pokémon capable to Revenge Kill it are limited.

Switch Ins : Toxapex / Corviknight or Skarmory Body Press
Archeops

This Pokémon hits much too hard for the tier, 3 sets available, Scarf, Band, LO with Hone Claws or Rocks.
The Scarf allowing Revenge Kill all Pokémon faster than him who are already not numerous like Tapu Koko.
LO to avoid getting stuck on an attack by hurting certain Pokémon like Toxapex.
He also has access to the Rocks which can annoy the opponent if his answer to Archeops is a Ground Pokémon like Garchomp, or even to Hone Claws to set-up and avoid missing the Head Smash.
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 179-212 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o: 224-270 (63.2 - 76.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The Band is for me the best set, it hits so hard that even Pokémon like Garchomp or Corviknight Intimidate no longer come on it.
252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 201-237 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 180-213 (45 - 53.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

In addition to having access to U-turn to keep the momentum and weaken Mew.

Switch Ins : Corviknight or Skarmory Delta Stream / Swampert / Doublade / Hippowdon / Ferrothorn

Heatran

If this Pokémon is not yet banned it is only because Garchomp is extremely strong in the tier, nothing else.
It has no Switch In or almost if we remove Garchomp, the AVs really don't want to come on Heatran :
252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Silvally-Electric in Harsh Sunshine: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Silvally-Electric: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

46% minimum + Earth Power damage = around 75% not including possible Entry Hazards.

He can trap a lot of Pokémon like Blissey / Chansey without Magic Bounce thanks to Taunt, the Water types are also not Switch Ins at this thing because he has Solar Beam and anyway he is immune to the Water type thanks to DLand.
He can also use Toxic for Fire Immunities like Zapdos PSea or Mandibuzz FF.

Switch Ins : Fire Immunities / Garchomp Regenerator

Gengar

This Pokémon has all the necessary tools to pass almost all of its "Switch Ins".

Blissey / Chansey Regenerator / RegenVest / Garchomp ? You can put them to sleep with Hypnosis and thus quietly place one or two Nasty Plots.
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 782-923 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 450-529 (107.1 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Blissey / Chansey Magic Bounce ?
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 678-801 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 452-533 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I also know that the Triage with Giga Drain set is very popular to avoid getting Revenge Kill by a little weakened Weavile and Barraskewda.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 243-286 (86.4 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 369-437 (140.3 - 166.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Switch Ins : Bulletproof / Garchomp Scarf Regenerator hoping not to sleep 3 laps in a row ??
Psychic Surge

No matter how hard I look, I can't find any Switch In at an Alakazam Specs Psychic Surge other than Jirachi & Mandibuzz, damages are just mind-blowing.
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 224-264 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 348-409 (49.5 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor in Psychic Terrain: 163-192 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All Steel and Dark types are OHKO or 2HKO by Focus Blast (or Fire Blast + Dazzling Gleam for Azelf) and Trick can cripple Mandibuzz too.
And Alakazam isn't the only one doing such big damage, Azelf can also do the same in addition to having access to U-turn, so just banning Alakazam is pointless.
Alakazam, Azelf & Mew also have access to Nasty Plot to place themselves and will take a kill for sure.

Switch Ins : Mandibuzz / Jirachi
Volcarona

Volcarona is a huge problem, especially when Noivern is banned (if it is).
His access to Quiver Dance makes him almost impossible to Revenge Kill while hitting extremely hard, he also has coverage moves to get past all his most common answers, Psychic for Toxapex and Giga Drain for Tapu Fini and win the duel against Chansey / Blissey without Unaware.

252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 289-341 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Volcarona: 100-100 (32.1 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+4 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 227-269 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO
Giga Drain 32.2 - 38.2% (36.6 - 43.4% recovered)
+4 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 409-484 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Because Chansey and Blissey can only get you 4HKO you can easily place 4 Quiver Dances, one when they come into the field, and 3 more when they do Seismic Toss, then you will recover enough HP to tank the Seismic Toss, and when the Chansey is weak enough you can finish him off with Flamethrower. Chansey and Blissey can only paralyze Volcarona to help offensive Pokémon get rid of it, but that leaves Volcarona 3 Quiver Dance anyway.

Switch Ins : Garchomp Regenerator / Noivern / Talonflame

Keep an eye on

Keep an eye on :
Once a good chunk of the Pokemon / Abilities listed above are banned, the ones I'm going to mention are likely to be problematic, though, which is how the tier is going to evolve.

Triage

So many Triage users, we're discovering more and more, all more and more different, physical, special, bulkys, and I'm afraid that our Triage checks will be increasingly rare and that sweep with these Pokémon will become more and more easy.

Magnet Pull

(All Fire/Ground/Fight Pokemons)


I totally agree with this post.
Right now, Corviknight Intimidate is everywhere, so playing Magnet Pull + a breaker wall by Corviknight like Garchomp is extremely strong, but I think it's just a phase, and the tier will change bit by bit and that this ability will be less and less strong, but it remains something to watch.

Zarude

His double Dark / Grass type is very strong offensively, he has very few Switch Ins (Kommo-o, Zapdos-Galar, Corviknight Intimidate, Togekiss) and hits hard on Pokémon that do not resist his 2 STABs and also has access to Close Combat for Ferrothorn and Cobalion.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 178-211 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-226 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz is not either a Switch In Zarude if it is not max Def, and even, max Def it remains quite complicated because it is enough to weaken it a little for it to be done 2HKO by Zarude.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Mandibuzz: 230-271 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zarude Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Barraskewda

I find this Pokémon has a bit the same problem as Noivern, it forces to have a Bulky Water in a team, it can pass Dland users with its coverages moves like Drill Run for Blacephalon and Heatran, or Ice Fang for the Landorus of The Number Man.
Intimidate users can come over it but will be quickly weakened from Flip Turn, especially if there are Entry Hazards.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Flip Turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 73-87 (18.2 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
About 30% to Corviknight Intimidate after the Rocks.
In addition to being the fastest Pokémon of the tier which allows it to be revenge kill by very few things.

Please, ban 2 or 3 Pokemons before the beginning of OMPL, i don't want to see matches of this broken tier.

(By the way, no need to specify it's my opinion)

 

[avyrie]

did bat suspect, was gonna add opinions there but came across the above post. I agree on most of the points mentioned, but I think a lot of those threats being problematic is somewhat far-fetched. Every meta has its own threats that every good team will be prepared for, as long as the threats don't force team building in an unhealthy way, they will be fine to stay.

This leads to my main point of this post: Genesect and Magnet Pull. They're among the top threats that other players have found unhealthy, but I still wanted to add some points of mine.

Genesect has too little counterplay in the teambuilder and can snowball a game way too easily in unpredictable ways. Won't go deep into this, Tinted/ FF beats would be checks, SF/MG has longetivity and hits like a truck, it has the bulk to get off shift gears easily, not to mention all the coverage it can use tailor made for specific checks. Being impossible to tell which set it is on preview adds insult to injury, you get a switch wrong, they set up one Shift Gear, you either lose on the spot or find a large hole in your defensive backbone. With a plethora of other threats to account for, this large hole will likely make you lose very soon, a common example being Weavile, which can overwhelm its checks when they lose ~40% health, which can be achieved as it shares checks with Gene. Dedicating >2 team slots to check different Gene sets is unrealistic, but otherwise Gene will always find a way to break through.
As for Gene being hard to be brought in, I haven't seen that problem from my suspect run. Gene itself, combined with potential FF, has a ton of defensive utility and as I said, can easily get off at least one Shift Gear and go on a rampage. In this pivot-heavy meta, I don't see how it could be hard to bring in Gene.

Speaking of pivot heavy, Magnet Pull is one of the biggest winners in this meta. A steel is almost guaranteed on a team and largely necessary for a defensive backbone, namely Corv and maybe Ferro/Rachi, while Gene and Tran are ever so common offensively. In the builder avoiding using a steel is a super hard task, while in practice, common pivots such as Silvally, Archeops and Corv itself find ample opportunities to slow pivot on aforementioned steels and easily trap and eliminate them. Trappers are also hard to spot on preview, trappers like Tran and Chomp have more common sets while breakers like Weav and Gene doesn't actually require a trapper teammate to function. There's really no escape from that except Shed Shell Corv (the other steels can't afford that; Eject Button was a cool tech I thought of to reverse trap opposing Corv but faces the same item syndrome), which get Knocked anyway; FF steels can sure buy a free turn against Fire trappers but can't really do anything in return. Trappers come in the second time and they're gone. This doesn't really need much explaining: trapping is dumb especially when it's so valuable and easy to accomplish.

And this is only talking about Gene and MagPull individually. With them together, it's even easier for the Gene user to build around various sets without considering Steels and break easier. Banning either one doesn't solve the issue as explained above, both are incredibly dumb for the meta and I'd like to see both go.

Before I end this post, I'd like to talk about the other threats the above post mentioned. To reinforce my initial point, they don't force unhealthy teambuilding to check them, unlike Gene and MagPull. For instance it's not hard to fit a check to Volc and Zam for most teams; letting Volc set up and predicting Zam's move is another story regarding game plans. As for Vern, I do agree its power is above the other mentioned threats and forces RegenVest to be on almost every team; while Blace can Knock its own checks and eventually break through RegenVest/ boots walls. I don't even know if RegenVest is considered a healthy fit on teams since Vern has been such a staple ever since the introduction of this meta.

Nevertheless, Vern/Blace are super susceptible to common priority like Weav and Skewda, not to mention pink blobs exist, so I wouldn't say they're as broken as the above two. If Vern goes in this suspect, I'd like to see some tiering action on Gene, MagPull, then Blace soon afterwards. Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

 

[Wyst]

Love using this rain core, tinted glasses inteleon is a great sweeper paired with rain !
Inteleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Toxic
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet

 

[Overwatched72]

Love using this rain core, tinted glasses inteleon is a great sweeper paired with rain !
Inteleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Toxic
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet

I think it would be a lot more effecient to run barraskewda drizzle and ferro either rain dish or dry skin. Barra already outspeed most of the metagame and you got ajet for what you don't outspeed. If you want to keep swim, i suggest psyfang instead of ajet. Inteleon is interesting, but offensive water types are rather rare in AAA (outside or barra of course). If you want a real nuke launcher under rain, i suggest volcanion swim specs with either weather ball or steam eruption for a fast set, or sheer force life orb with steam, fireb, earth power and coverage/utility.

 

[Lilith222]

AAA is pretty nice enjoyed on how chaotic pokemon battles can be, got some sets pretty much enjoying it:

Zapdos @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Zap Cannon
- Heat Wave
- Roost

No guard in a zapdos is just too good to be true, especially the zap cannon

Polteageist @ White Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Hp
- Stored Power
- Shell Smash
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Ball

One of my fav pokes sturdy Polteageist
Easy set-up + spammable strenght sap its just plainly annoying( I zeroed the hp so that strenght sap can full heal and reset sturdy).

Noivern @ Life Orb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Boomburst
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn

Um....yea booburst aerilate just pure spammable fun

Edit:

Forgot about this sets but they're pretty fun too

Slowbro-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD
Calm Nature
- Slack Off
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Shell Side Arm

A literal nuisance can't stall it, stamina gives it defensive presence, calm mind gives it spdef presnce and spatk and most inportantly stored power :)

Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Shift Gear
- Volt Switch
- Sludge Wave

Another Boomburst abuser once you get rid of those pesky ground types, auto press boomburst

 

[motherlove]

I think it would be a lot more effecient to run barraskewda drizzle and ferro either rain dish or dry skin. Barra already outspeed most of the metagame and you got ajet for what you don't outspeed. If you want to keep swim, i suggest psyfang instead of ajet. Inteleon is interesting, but offensive water types are rather rare in AAA (outside or barra of course). If you want a real nuke launcher under rain, i suggest volcanion swim specs with either weather ball or steam eruption for a fast set, or sheer force life orb with steam, fireb, earth power and coverage/utility.

Barra drizzle seems ok sicne you have a pivot move but then you can't run Moist Rock so it's iffy, perhaps as a secondary setter.

But I want to second Volcanion because Weather ball is insanely good on it, especially on a tinted set. Weather ball is stab even if they switch to a desolante land mon which is common counterplay, so it limits the amount of predicting you have to do.

Drizzle Moist rock volcanion might be an option as well since you'd be able to take down the opposing primal weather with your setter. Ppl only use Fire Neutrals such as Heatran, Zapdos or Lando as their desolate land mon anyway, and Barra probably gets cooked by a resisted weather ball.

 

[motherlove]

I know I'm a hypocrite, but it's a bit of a shame that a couple posts regarding the state of the meta were drowned out, so I'd like it if the attention went back to these posts for now (and also, to Thinkerino's post a couple posts above that, highlighting what is being discussed and what the council wants to hear from the community).

I appreciate that a lot of these arguments seem sound on paper. But they don't always properly portray how a pokemon plays out in practice. I know it's harder but it would be much easier to sway the minds of ppl who disagree with you if the posts were backed with replays and stuff like that (team preview analysis is also good but I felt it was a bit exaggerated here which lessened its credibility).
EDIT: Sharing magpull teams would also help tremendously.

Gengar—for example—is the most broken mon on paper, having access to knock off and pretty optimal coverage with Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave, it really doesn't even need surprise factor to have basically no switchins. It's also been "on the radar" pretty much since Dragapult got banned (Spectrier took over for a while but it did lack some of the tools Gengar had). But since it provides little defensive backbone, little utility, little/unreliable speed control, its ability to wallbreak becomes far less enticing, when you could instead wallbreak with Noivern, Weavile or Koko which are maybe less effective but much more well rounded and easier to fit on teams.

In general when a meta reaches a state where it feels impossible to prepare for everything, having no switchins on paper doesn't actually cut it anymore, as silly as that sounds. Victini had no switchins, but victini was also insane defensively ad provided valuable utility with Desoland. Dragapult was ridiculous speed control and has a combination of bulk and typing that makes it valuable defensively. There's a wide gap between these two and Gengar in my opinion.

I don't really play so I don't want to involve myself too much in the discussion. But I'd just briefly drop my thoughts on some of the mons I'm iffy on.

Thoughts

Zam: For the time I've used zam, I wasn't really impressed. Zam has to deal with immunities in dark types, neutral mons that it doesn't force out (mew for example), random regens that can tank a hit to scout and the rare mons that actually wall it (not fun to face spd Corv or Celes). I've actually much preferred Latios in the time I've used it. Which kinda highlights a teambuilding path that I've found easy to fall into.
Running Zam -> Running Adapt latios -> Switching to either mg setup for the longevity in longer games or Triage Lele for the better Speed control and Dragon immunity

Gene: From what you hear about gene, I sometimes wonder why it isn't simply 6-0ing every game. I've tried to find replays with gene in the discord tournament channel only to realize ppl don't actually run it that much.
The main problems I see are:

• As that as much as it can run a billion sets, it's still restricted to the more optimal setups to reach any kind of consistency. Surprise picks could be more effective in tour maybe, but in practice gene isn't running absolutely everything.
• Gene struggles to make progress against its checks and setup at the same time. Somehow a lot of the time I read about gene it seems to be getting 3 or 4 free turns while the opponent fumbles and lets its checks get weakened. This is pretty unrealistic in a situation where you're trying to win before your opponent does. Especially since gene is pretty slow, it limits how many mons it can force out.
• Preparing for one Gene set will usually result in being somewhat prepared for other Gene sets.

A bunch of the teams that are supposedly 6-0d by Gene have tools to at least do smt against it. For example on QT stall Genesect doesn't force a lot out and Fini or Chansey seem like good midgrounds from most mons (Chansey or Heatran from Corv or Fini, Fini from mew or chomp) and Knock off can help take care of it and widdle it. Stresh's Arcanine team has several checks with Knock Fini, Arcanine and Unaware Skarm. Atha's team can pivot Silv into Ferro to knock or leech while Talon or Pex deal with Fire coverage Gene. It often feels like the Gene 6-0 claims don't take into account how one can play around it.

For me Genesect is more similar to Kyurem than anything else. Kyurem got banned tho so there's that...

Noivern and Weavile feel like a cut above the rest on this list for me. Blace is pretty ridiculous as well but Mind Blown is often stall-able with Regen mons or Pex.

Gengar: Honestly the only set I really have trouble with in post PH ban is the no guard set. Even if it doesn't kill you it will always leave your team in a garbage state for another mon to pick up the pieces.

Zarude: I'm not sure why it's there, it's just a strong mon and we have plenty of those. Zarude doesn't seem to demark itself in any particular way.

Heatran: I'm glad Panda brought attention to this guy because yeah, I agree, this mon is busted.

Volcarona: Now I've 6-0d many teams with Volc and I do think it's a potent threat. But it does feel similar to Genesect in that it doesn't get a million opportunities to setup in a game and struggles to wear down its checks. To keep an eye on yeah but currently it's not really breaking the meta.

As an aside it'd be cool for a non-Thinkerino council member to post from time to time. Stresh has made a lot of good points about Gene, Blace and magpull, but because they're not public the community stance ends up being an echo chamber of ban cries.
Doesn't need to be long or anything, I know Think (bless him) is overly verbose sometimes but if Jrdn dropped a "Magpull suk lol" I'm sure some ppl would just take it at face value just based on his expertise. Plus I like u guys and would like to see your faces more.
I've read very good arguments from council members (especially Stresh) about magpull, Genesct and Blace but none of it is public. Which then gives the false impression that everyone agrees about things the council already discussed and disagrees with.

 

[xavgb]

motherlove is right that I've probably spent too much of my time giving opinions on AAA in various discord channels instead of on here, so I'll try and rectify that a bit by giving my thoughts on everything as it stands.




Blace isn't really something that has seemed broken to me at any point during this gen. I guess my main reason for that is because of the amount of natural counterplay it has, between proactive and reactive counterplay. Currently most teams have at least one Regen fire resist, which is already a great start when it comes to denying Blace free turns, and from there it's pretty much always possible to add on further counterplay, whether that comes from Ghost or Fire resists to help with Specs sets, harder counterplay like Bliss/Diancie/Regenvest waters, or other ways to tech around Blace temporarily like running Scarf on your Fini/Chomp. Offensively, we still have a decent amount of win conditions that aren't forced out by Blacephalon, which means that if your defensive counterplay ends up being on the softer side, there's still chances to outplay and work towards a win. Between its frailty, middling speed (for a breaker), the in-game presence of Regen resists and the existence of fairly solid switchins, I find that there's plenty of room to customize fine Blace matchups to your liking, and whatever you do in the builder you'll probably have at least some way to handle it in game.

Obviously, Blace has a lot of advantages as a breaker in terms of practicality (hence its VR rank). Blace's hazard immunity, super strong STAB, and access to the right moves to break through p much all the relevant defensive mons long-term make it a pretty sensible choice as a breaker in the teambuilder, and all of these could potentially contribute to it being broken in the future, however its flaws leave room for a good amount of counterplay. Even though most teams' Blace counterplay will be spread across multiple mons, I still find it comes pretty naturally and doesn't feel oppressive because you can usually retool your teams in some way to fit your target amount of Blace counterplay (for example, choosing to run Bliss or Rockvally instead of Elecvally as a special blanket after realising your original team is weak to Blace, or the aforementioned thing with Fini and Chomp sets). Rip to Nihilego though, too hard to account for Psyshock Blace while using that mon :<




Honestly, No Guard seems kinda busted right now but when has Gengar not seemed broken. I don't want to say much about this because the nature of Gar means that not much of the counterplay to it is in the builder, and also I somehow haven't actually seen much of No Guard Gar recently even though I hear it's rising in usage. I can't see either outcome being hugely impactful so I'm inclined to leave it in the meta for now and see what happens during OMPL.




I... don't feel like this is broken? There's a lot of aspects to Gene that make it a very annoying mon in general, mainly to do with Shift Gear and the mixed offensive stats + its newfound access to Leech Life, but as a whole it seems not broken and more of a matchup fish than anything. Even then, it can't matchup fish that effectively since its list of sets can basically be shortened down to Sheer Force BoltBeam SG, SG with the same coverage but now with an immunity ability (usually Flash Fire), and Physical (this can be Tinted or non-Tinted but they both share most of the same counterplay). Every time I've used Gene, especially when using immunity abilities, I've been frustrated with how easily it can be randomly checked by common mons that lose in theory but are workable in practice when you consider that Gene usually has to wait in the back a lot for a chance to try and sweep, and on the other side I find myself regularly getting away with stuff that normally wouldn't work against faster breakers when playing against Gene. It's not impossible to find decent counterplay to the Gene sets either -- Heatran + any way to stop FF Gene (or just Moldy Heatran), Pert + strong prio like Bisharp (or just Roar Pert), Delta Zap (or other Delta Flyings but Corv isn't really a Gene check outside of the immunity sets and Moltres is generally less useful in the meta), Pex or Mandi + any mixed Gene check, Knock Fini + various soft checks (or Trick Fini in a lot of situations). There's no doubt that Gene can be hugely threatening given the right situation, but there's also a lot holding it back and I assume that's probably why it hasn't really caught on among most of the playerbase right now.




The first mention of Weavile potentially being broken came from TNM shortly after Buzzwole's ban, citing a general lack of counters outside of Fini. At the time though, it didn't really pan out that way for various reasons, and Weavile wasn't too big of a deal in the meta going forward. However, since then Weavile has seen a lot of important adaptation, and I'd like to go through the three big changes I see here because I'm leaning towards Weavile being broken in the current meta.

1. Increased popularity of MGLO sets

Typically, one of Weavile's main weaknesses in the past has been that its vulnerable to chip damage from Rocks and Rocky Helmet mons. This opened up room for a lot of emergency counterplay that would allow you to have decent Weavile matchups without having to resort to hard answers like Fini. Magic Guard SD complicates this a lot, as it can now break past weak checks much more freely, and sometimes even threaten to sweep. On top of this, all combinations of Pjab/Axel/Shard are viable in the last two slots, and as such they have to be accounted for which is already pretty limiting. Panda posted the SD Jab Weavile vs Fini calc further up showing how dangerous it can be to run into this set sometimes even when you're running Fini (I'd also like to note that Moonblast doesn't OHKO back which is annoying against a mon that doesnt take chip). Essentially, this is already a pretty dangerous set on its own and it's also much more practical to use than Weavile has been in the past.

2. Beat Up

This seemingly innocuous addition to Weavile's toolkit is actually quite annoying for two main reasons. Firstly, it allows CB Weavile to bypass one of its most solid checks in Toxapex, which can leave these teams stranded against Weavile as they don't typically carry another good Weavile check. Secondly, similar to Magic Guard it dodges Helmet chip, and it also gets past techs such as Colbur Mew which again rules out a lot of the weaker counterplay options. Outside of that, it carries all the usual power of Band Weavile still, so there's already very few counters, with many teams wanting to rely on softer checks to this set instead.

3. Magnet Pull

The recent rise of Magpull makes Weavile prep significantly more limited. Cobalion, Regen Tran, and Intimidate Corviknight are all sets that could be used to check Weavile, but running these mons as the Weavile check right now is very dangerous with the presence of Scarf Magpull Tran that can trap all three. Combined with the first two points, this has been leading me to run Fini on pretty much every team, partially because it's a really good mon, but mostly because the rest of the Weavile counterplay just feels too exploitable by common Weavile sets and Weavile teambuilds. That being said, if Magpull did leave, then I'd probably be fine with Weavile overall.




Magnet Pull is something I've been paying close attention to recently, both building with it and preparing for it. My initial opinion on Magpull was that it was a very inefficient ability in a few ways and pretty much never worth sacrificing an ability slot on your team. After exploring more, I can say that it's definitely a viable strategy, but I stand by large parts of my original assessment that many existing Magpull cores are ineffective. In particular, Bulu and Chomp based Magpull builds are incredibly risky as they usually end up very close to just getting owned by basic defensive cores like Dshield Mew + Fini + Unaware Corv, as Unaware Corv is probably the top set right now and it can easily afford Shed Shell. On top of that, non-unaware Corvs are especially unreliable vs things like Chomp anyway, only really being able to function as a temporary (potentially one-time) way to pivot into a revenge killer, which means most of those teams should be looking to use some other mon to check Chomp anyway. On the other side of the spectrum, you will find cores like Archeops magpull and such, which are incredibly efficient from a breaking perspective, but due to the nature of both of these mons you sacrifice a ton of utility to fit them in and likely end up with a simply weak team overall. In between those two extremes, we have what I consider to be the sweet spot of Magpull abusers -- Weavile and Bisharp (maybe some others but these are the obvious ones). These two mons benefit immensely from Magpull, with their checks going from a couple of mons to basically no mons right now, they both carry some decent utility thanks to being good in both speed control and breaking roles, and they both get Knock Off to guarantee that their Steel type checks are trap fodder. From a prepping perspective, it's definitely possible to build viable teams that really don't care about Magpull, whether it's steel-less or just Shed Shell/FF Steel/Flyings that don't get trapped by Heatran, but there's still some notable restrictions, the main one being that the non-Magpull Heatran sets kinda get screwed out of their roles since they need to be able to come in throughout the game and not die halfway through their job of piling on pressure with Rocks/Magma Storm, and again you can't really use the Steel/Flyings to check certain mons reliably if they carry Knock. Overall, I'm kinda on the fence when it comes to Magpull itself, but I do want to see one of Weavile or Magpull going before OMPL if possible, and I think I'd rather ban a mechanic like Magpull than another one of our major speed control options.


TL;DR Blace and Gene are fine, Gar idfk, and I'd like to see one of Weavile/Magpull banned before OMPL (I think i'd prefer magpull in this case)

 

[Isaiah]

For anyone that wasn't aware already, Noivern has been banned through suspect test!

Also...stay tuned for some more tiering action soon

 

[nathanlikeschicken]

Hey I'm hosting a $45 AAA tournament on my stream tonight at 9PM EST! Entry is free, and newcomers are encouraged - we're trying to introduce beginners to the tier and tournament formats! To join, just enter the pokeland room on showdown 15 minutes before it starts or stop by my stream on Twitch

 

[The Number Man]

Following a repeat council vote after additional discussion, both within the community and within the council, we have held another vote on Magnet Pull.

Results

Member	Ban	Do Not Ban	Abstain
Think	x
jrdn		X
xavgb (stresh)	x
shiloh		X
The Number Man	X

With a 3:2 majority vote, Magnet Pull is now banned from AAA!

Ban reasoning

A lot has already been said about magnet pull by other members of the community, refer to these posts by emile, panda, iph and stresh. I'm pretty sure QT has also written about magpull at some point, but i couldn't find any posts on magpull by him in the last 2 pages of this thread.
I'll do my best to provide a summary of what caused us to deem Magpull unfit for the AAA metagame. First of all, I don't think it can be called broken in the traditional sense of the word. Uncompetitive fits better as a descriptor. Smogon has a long history of deeming trapping uncompetitive, with Stag and Atrap being banned in most OU formats from gen 5 onward. Magnet Pull has consistently escaped the banhammer in standard metas since the limited distribution telegraphs it at preview. In AAA however, Magnet Pull can be put on anything and is thus much harder to spot and correctly play around, especially considering the current most popular magpuller in Heatran frequently runs other sets as well and the fact that most mons that enjoy Magpull support usually have ways of bypassing the steels that check them anyway. The first element that made us consider a ban is thus the difficulty of playing around it in game, as unless you guess your opponent's whole team, you likely won't see magpull coming.
On the flip side, while magpull is unpredictable and thus hard to play against, common arguments against banning it usually took the form of "it's un unreliable gimmick" and "if you face a team you can't magpull you have a useless slot". Both of these turned out to not be true, stresh covered the first argument in his post - basically, there exist mons that don't *need* magpull to function but benefit substantially from it due to a limited amount of non-steel checks, while also setting up magpullers very well with Knock/Trick (Weavile, Bish, Archeops). In practice this can lead to games that end as soon as Intimidate/Dauntless Coviknight is trapped by Heatran. As for the second one, it's just plainly not true. As we all know, Magpull teams are always constructed to thrive vs Steel-less teams. Thus, while facing no steel is "bad" if you look at it from the perspective of not getting to trap anything, it's a good thing if you consider that this means your breakers can start punching holes without having to trap their steel type first. Additionally, most good magpullers provide other utility to teams - scarf Tran is solid speed control as it resists most common priority barring Drain Punch while hitting hard with Eruption. A similar case could be made for Specs Thundy as well, since it shares most of these traits with Tran.

In conclusion, Magpull is hard to spot at preview and thus hard to play around in-game, meaning most of the counterplay happens in builder. When it successfully does its thing it often relatively easily forces a win, which has been deemed uncomptetitive. It also doesn't flop nearly as often as one would like for such an ability, so we decided to ban it.

Tagging Kris to please implement this. Thank you!

 

[Atha]

Hello,

I'm glad that Noivern and Magnet Pull have been banned, because there was no reason for them to remain in AAA. However I think that a ban of Weavile is still necessary, and that the ban of Magnet Pull does not make Weavile much less strong than it was. The viable counterplay to Weavile can be summed up in the following pokemons: Defensive Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Intimidate Corviknight/Skarmory, Defensive Cobalion/Stakataka. Of these, two counter Weavile reliably, Cobalion and Stakataka (until we start using Low Kick). Tapu Fini is very easily overwhelmed by the MGLO set if it has Poison Jab, as shown earlier in this thread ; or even by Choice Banded Triple Axel (or Beat Up), which, unless it misses, 2hkos with any chip. Toxapex, in addition to being powerless against Beat Up, and against common belief, is not a viable answer to the MGLO set, since it gets ppstalled Recover extremely quickly, without Weavile needing to risk a burn. Finally, we all know how hard of a time Corviknight and Skarmory have at dealing with Weavile, often accompanied by other pokémons that put constant pressure on them (which is all the more tangible if they need to Defog). Although the banning of Magnet Pull makes the counterplay against Weavile a bit more stable, it is undeniable that this pokémon still restricts teambuilding too much to be a viable element of the metagame.

On other topics, I think we have to be very careful not to be too harsh on bans. Some people raise long lists of bans that seem necessary to them, and while I understand their dissatisfaction with the metagame at the moment (the Noivern metagame was very unpleasant it must be said) ; they should not forget that a metagame is a big network of threat coverage, and that this network is already shaken by one or two bans, and that it is not necessary to ban 5 things at once to change matters ; this also means that one cannot predict what will still be broken or not after one or two bans. Blacephalon, as some have said, is not the priority right now, and might never be, I won't go back to that. The arguments against the Genesect ban seem to me to be extremely dubious, and bathed in a vagueness where one always knows what to do in the face of the opposing Genesect, and where one has no viable answer at all but "in practice it's okay" ; but I can't deny that the cause of the Genesect ban still needs practical proof. Gengar is probably broken but we'll see what happens during OMPL. We'll probably have to keep a close eye on other things in the future, like Triage, Alakazam, Magic Bounce (which is still a problem for me, although I've given up on the cause), etc., but first things first.

 

[mattydogerino]

Hello,

I'm glad that Noivern and Magnet Pull have been banned, because there was no reason for them to remain in AAA. However I think that a ban of Weavile is still necessary, and that the ban of Magnet Pull does not make Weavile much less strong than it was. The viable counterplay to Weavile can be summed up in the following pokemons: Defensive Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Intimidate Corviknight/Skarmory, Defensive Cobalion/Stakataka. Of these, two counter Weavile reliably, Cobalion and Stakataka (until we start using Low Kick). Tapu Fini is very easily overwhelmed by the MGLO set if it has Poison Jab, as shown earlier in this thread ; or even by Choice Banded Triple Axel (or Beat Up), which, unless it misses, 2hkos with any chip. Toxapex, in addition to being powerless against Beat Up, and against common belief, is not a viable answer to the MGLO set, since it gets ppstalled Recover extremely quickly, without Weavile needing to risk a burn. Finally, we all know how hard of a time Corviknight and Skarmory have at dealing with Weavile, often accompanied by other pokémons that put constant pressure on them (which is all the more tangible if they need to Defog). Although the banning of Magnet Pull makes the counterplay against Weavile a bit more stable, it is undeniable that this pokémon still restricts teambuilding too much to be a viable element of the metagame.

On other topics, I think we have to be very careful not to be too harsh on bans. Some people raise long lists of bans that seem necessary to them, and while I understand their dissatisfaction with the metagame at the moment (the Noivern metagame was very unpleasant it must be said) ; they should not forget that a metagame is a big network of threat coverage, and that this network is already shaken by one or two bans, and that it is not necessary to ban 5 things at once to change matters ; this also means that one cannot predict what will still be broken or not after one or two bans. Blacephalon, as some have said, is not the priority right now, and might never be, I won't go back to that. The arguments against the Genesect ban seem to me to be extremely dubious, and bathed in a vagueness where one always knows what to do in the face of the opposing Genesect, and where one has no viable answer at all but "in practice it's okay" ; but I can't deny that the cause of the Genesect ban still needs practical proof. Gengar is probably broken but we'll see what happens during OMPL. We'll probably have to keep a close eye on other things in the future, like Triage, Alakazam, Magic Bounce (which is still a problem for me, although I've given up on the cause), etc., but first things first.

There are plenty of offensive mons in the current meta that you've failed to mention which can adequately handle Weaville. Golisopod and Conkeldurr are hard counters that can survive any of Weaville's hits on the switch and OHKO it in kind with triage leech life or mach punch/triage drain punch respectively. There are also plenty of threats that can check Weaville as long as they're brought in safely. It's not difficult to bring in mons like Talonflame or Barraskewda off a u-turn/volt switch/parting shot from the likes of Incineroar, Silvally, Corviknight, or any of the other bulky pivots in the tier.

I'm not denying that Weaville is a threat worthy of a suspect, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to focus completely on Weaville's defensive counterplay while ignoring the offensive counterplay that exists within the tier

 

[PandaDoux]

Conkeldurr and Incineroar are nowhere, Golisopod is pretty bad, Silvally is always RegenVest and :

252 Atk Adaptability Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Silvally-Rock: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- approx. 2HKO

Barraskewda and Talonflame are not Weavile's checks

252 Atk Adaptability Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 300-354 (114 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 330-390 (111.1 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Explaining here why Corviknight isn't a Weavile's switch in.

Offensive reliables Weavile's checks :
- Cobalion
End of the list

(Surprising but Bisharp is not :
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 249-294 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO)

Unban Magearna

Revenge Killers :
- Barraskewda
- Tapu Koko
- Talonflame
- Any Scarf not OHKOed by Ice Shard at +2 and can OHKO Weavile
End of the list

(but the problem with just have a Weavile's revenge killer is : Weavile just come on the field, knock out one of your Pokemon, switch on his answer of your revenge killer, pivoting, putting Weavile on the field....) + scarf user in plenty of teams is Garchomp so....

Weavile have a way to win vs all of it "switch ins" and is hard to revenge kill + offensives checks don't exist, please ban this last Pokemon before OMPL and i think we have a good tier for this hype teamtour !

 

[Atha]

There are plenty of offensive mons in the current meta that you've failed to mention which can adequately handle Weaville. Golisopod and Conkeldurr are hard counters that can survive any of Weaville's hits on the switch and OHKO it in kind with triage leech life or mach punch/triage drain punch respectively. There are also plenty of threats that can check Weaville as long as they're brought in safely. It's not difficult to bring in mons like Talonflame or Barraskewda off a u-turn/volt switch/parting shot from the likes of Incineroar, Silvally, Corviknight, or any of the other bulky pivots in the tier.

I'm not denying that Weaville is a threat worthy of a suspect, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to focus completely on Weaville's defensive counterplay while ignoring the offensive counterplay that exists within the tier

I'm sure there is a way to scam a ladder player by putting Conkeldurr or Golisopod against his Weavile and ohkoing it as it stays in. Let's agree though that Conkeldurr and Golisopod aren't close to being Weavile answers, and while they can come once without dying and forcing a switch, I strongly advise against having them as your Weavile counterplay. As for stuff that outspeed Weavile like Talonflame or Barraskewda, they require having an actual Weavile answer in order to come in...

 

[Hera]

how in the world did I top ladder lol

Would like to offer my opinion on the meta right now. I kinda already did something on major threats here but I've had more time to fully flesh out what I think and how I came to this conclusion.

Personally, I have found teambuilding to be heavily constrained due to the immensely high power level of the tier + the fact that there is a multitude of equally viable threats that all need to be accounted for when teambuilding, lest you get swept by, say, Scarf Archeops or have to sac something to Barraskewda or Blacephalon and hope your speed control option can RK it. Weavile, Gengar, Genesect, Archeops, Garchomp, Heatran, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, Alakazam, and more all have to be thought about when building, and as their checks either do not naturally overlap or share enough that one will eventually win out if paired with the others, this can lead to dedicating slots solely for the purpose of beating (insert A+ rank mon here). Obviously, not all of these Pokemon are broken, with mons such as Heatran and Bulu arguably being balanced, but the fact remains that a multitude of threats, all with roughly equal viability, must be prepared for, usually by using dedicated answers such as Tapu Fini in the case of Weavile, a FF Steel immune/neutral to Ground in the case of Heatran/Blacephalon/Volcarona, and an AV Steel immune/neutral to Fighting in the case of Alakazam.

The best way to explain this is by using two types of teams: the unbeatable team and the consistent team. An unbeatable team is one, by definition in a healthy meta, that should be impossible to build, and subsequently, impossible to prepared for. An unbeatable team takes advantage of all current meta trends and puts them onto one team. It has no bad matchups (at worst it has to play a 50/50 once or twice against a neutral matchup), centralizes the tier around it, and in the hands of a good player, cannot lose unless there are heavy amounts of hax in play or it is a mirror against a better player. This is not the problem AAA is currently experiencing. By contrast, a consistent team is one that, while having losing matchups, should have outs versus many of them, or at least can position itself in a way to minimize the impact of the bad matchup. This is the problem AAA currently faces imo: how hard it is to build a consistent team. Due to the high power level of the meta combined with the roughly equal viability of many strong threats, teams are forced to concede to the fact that one A+ is going to go ham on it, whether it be Weavile, Archeops, Barraskewda, or something else.

After playing for a bit, I think I have found the three main causes of this annoying constriction on teambuilding. These are most likely not the end-all-be-all to a perfect metagame, but I firmly believe that if these 3 left, the meta would be in a much more enjoyable state.




lol Fuck this stupid ghost. It really only needs No Guard to have absurd breaking and supporting power, and anyone who's been playing the tier for a bit knows how dangerous it is, but for the sake of the argument, allow me to further elaborate on why Gengar is dumb. No Guard has access to Hypnosis, Electric + Fighting coverage which is only resisted by a select few viable Pokemon (Tapu Bulu, Dhelmise, Tapu Koko, both Landos, and random VA Ghosts), and Nasty Plot, allowing it to quickly and near-effortlessly break through teams by providing it with setup opportunities against anything slower than it. Adding onto that, it's an insane enabler because, more often than not, the opposing team will have a mon asleep, another paralyzed, and a third possibly chipped/fainted, which can easily open the door for teammates such as Weavile. If that wasn't bad enough, Gengar can run multiple sets easily able to take advantage of what few switch-ins it does have. Magic Bounce Blissey? It can't do much to Substitute sets, and without Noivern, it can't just Teleport into that to force out Gengar. It also despises being Tricked a Specs, as that ruins its ability to check Gengar successfully. Unaware Chansey? Also gets Tricked a Specs + gets put to sleep anyway, so it's not a long-term check. Bulletproof Steels like Jirachi? Say hello to Hex Gengar! With or without Wisp? Gengar has a bunch of options at its disposal that must all be prepared for to be safe against it, and while this is true with many top tier AAA mons, Gengar exacerbates it by not only having an already limited number of checks but enough sets where it can pick and choose what it wants to beat with very little opportunity cost.



I am less adamant about wanting to see Gene gone and can understand the stay arguments a bit. It obviously hates having to choose between a bunch of good abilities like Flash Fire, Sheer Force, Regenerator, and Tinted Lens, and unlike our unfriendly little ghost above, the opportunity cost here is much bigger considering Genesect's eh speed tier means it needs to set up to be a threat, and getting that setup turn can be hard sometimes. Its checks and counters are much more sturdy and Genesect does have trouble getting past them by itself, e.g Regen Heatran, FF Ferrothorn, Swampert, and DS Corviknight and Mandibuzz. However, that still does not mean this is an okay mon. SFLO + Tinted Lens sets already put an immense strain under teambuilding, as Heatran is the only sturdy mon that the checks for the sets overlap on, forcing it on many teams to be "safe" vs Genesect. Despite wanting to run multiple abilities, all of them are crucial enough that they must be accounted for when facing any Genesect. Like, if that Genesect hards into your Fire-type after a sac, is it bluffing FF, or is it actually FF? 50/50s are always a part of Pokemon, but when said 50/50 can lead to your entire (slightly weakened) team losing, it goes to show how impactful and possibly broken Genesect is. I've also seen some people say that the claims that "Gene 6-0's" are exaggerated, and while they kinda are, Genesect usually has enough coverage at its disposal that it consider dropping, say, Leech Life for Blaze Kick so it has a better matchup against Desolate Land Heatran. It's not as stupid as Gengar, but not only is it a poor line to draw, but it does not need to be so to be a serious problem.



Weavile, despite being in a tier with Gengar, Genesect, and loads of other constraining threats, is currently THE most contrasting threat right now. Running Blissey or Heatran to check Gengar and Genesect, respectively, are mere suggestions compared to the hoops one must jump through to beat Weavile. First, you need to have a solid switch-in to it, which is usually a Steel that isn't weak to Fighting (so Corviknight/Skarmory, usually Corviknight for reasons that become apparent soon). Then, you need a solid revenge killer that can force out Weavile, so something that resists Ice (Scarf Heatran, Barraskewda) or something bulky enough to take a hit and retaliate depending on if a Banded Weavile locked itself into Ice or Dark (Arcanine, Tapu Bulu). Finally, you need yet another check because the Steel bird you choose is almost always going to be worn down from entry hazards + taking Weavile hits + taking hits from whatever else it's supposed to check, so much so that it actually can't switch into Weavile anymore (Toxapex, Tapu Fini). That's a staggering THREE mons just to deal with one of them. To me, that sounds like a massive constriction of teambuilding, regardless of if these picks are viable or not. Even outside of this, Weavile has a nuclear KOff, which means it can weaken its checks for other teammates so they can eventually blow past it. This all makes Weavile an ultimately unhealthy presence when teambuilding, and something I wouldn't mind being gone.



While the constraining presence on teambuilding extends far beyond the scope of these three (would be perfectly fine looking into Triage or Archeops as well), I feel that, if these 3 were gone, teams would be freed up by an immense amount and be able to dedicate slots to more fringe, but viable, mons and playstyles like Zygarde-10%, Bisharp, and Electric Terrain, all of which are quite underrated at the moment but suffer from the fact that the above 3 and others simply do not let them flourish.

As a final thing, here are some sets I've been using as of late.

Set Dump

Tree (Xurkitree) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball

"Where are my switch-ins?", Xurk screamed as it faced yet another team relying on RegenVest Steels to check special attackers.


MustGetRocksUp (Aerodactyl) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Tomb
- Taunt
- Tailwind

Pretty simple set. It's a HO lead dedicated to getting Rocks up, making sure they stay up, and providing a speed boost with Tailwind. What's pretty cool is that, due to the high speed, you beat most other HO leads except Regieleki.


Da Man (Darmanitan-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz
- Body Slam
- Earthquake

Wanted a reliable Ice STAB on the strongest Ice-type in the tier. You can probably make do with MGLO instead but the para chance is sort of nice.


Pika Pika (Pikachu) @ Light Ball
Ability: Galvanize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off

Probably a bad set on an unmon but I find that it annoys teams without an Electric immunity, Despite the high power level, top-tier offensive threats are either frail, weak to Electric or are a mix of both. I wouldn't seriously run it without tons of support though, and the MagPull ban is annoying because Ferrothorn is its best counter.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Dorron]

Ok, we have King's Rock Beat Up Weavile. We also have Serene Grace Togekiss. But what about Serene Grace King's Rock Beat Up Weavile?

Weavile @ King's Rock
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Beat Up
- Triple Axel
- Ice Shard

King's Rock is affected by Serene Grace (I have been told so in Help room), so you basically have 20% chance to flinch 5/6 times. It is true that it is pretty weak, but if walls are weakened and you still have most of your team alive, it can easily sweep. Also Triple Axel can flinch too with 20% three times and ignores team's status.
The set can be a gimmick but it can become very threatening when used well