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while i will agree that bax is crazy, and i can only see it better without gholdengo in the tier, i will argue that houndstone is completely fine.
houndstone ends up as a sitting duck for the first 10-20 ish rounds of the game (possibly less), while the idea of a sweeper that can kill nearly anything, for the first few turns, it is not just a 5-6 mu, but a 4-6 mu if using webs, or a 4.5-6 mu due to sandy being required for slush rush. sure, you can argue that stone could use weather speed x2, but opulse isnt here anymore and what good plain weather setters are there? the list stays at slowking and screens + chilly reception but thats all. whats stopping a baxcalibur from dragon dancing on a switch and proceeding to sweep you instead? while houndstone is promising, youd need a lot of setup, enough offensive pressure to never let ur webs get defogged away / your eterrain does not run out in time for houndstone to start working. this is not counting priority from the likes of kingambit, hatterene, baxcalibur, dragonite, etc and the fact that faster scarfers exist to not give houndstone a chance (meowscarada). if anything, houndstone is similar to polteageist, setup (webs, eterrain) and kill or lose the mon.
you assume houndstone actually needs web/terrain/weather support to sweep, while those help scarf supreme overlord is perfectly capable of reverse 6-0ing teams that lack a hard answer (ting liu, tusk, sucker punch, your own scarf), and if tusk ever goes that would just be one less answer
to me the meta feels quite centralized rn a bit more than id personally like. every time i build a team the same 6 mons always appear in my head and almost always at least 3-4 gets in. im talking about corv, tusk, moth, joe, garg, and moon. hell you can probably make a team with those exact 6 and be ok. take a look at Siamato's stats posted above and youll see many players feel similarly - there just isnt many other mons that can glue and check shit as well as they can. and thats partially because theres always those few threats that you always have to account for in the builder, no matter what, or you just get rolled by them. chief among them imo are bax, shocks, and fires in general. honestly how i often feel when teambuilding is pretty much in LordBox's signature - sometimes im just tempted to shuffle my offensive mons, keep the defensive core more or less unchanged, and call them new teams.
some thoughts:
not much for me to say here that others havent already said. bax forcing one of its handful of counters onto every team and still breaking em half the time is nothing short of ridiculous. probably definitely go asap after the suspect.
(im biased here, i love all three moths, they are beautiful but bear with me)
im happy that people are respecting iron moth a lot more now in many different ways. its just so unique here and does so so much that no other mon can dream to do. it is a rare viable water immunity that has any sort of longevity, a very powerful fire that forces the opponent to mind their well-baked body or rv moon throughout the game, its typing and stats gives it deceptively strong defensive utility and combined with that offensive force allows it to play more aggressively and abuse morning sun's massive healing easily, tspikes and discharge yellow magic provides unique support for teams and even itself, and its got uturn to do uturn things. its just so damn good and so easily slappable on so many teams.
regarding the offensive sets Siamato posted above, i still believe fast desolate land sets are far and away the best, and those two sets mentioned are easily annoyed by garganacl and moon (parahax aside), but when those two are the specially defensive linchpins on their team they could really be rather easily overwhelmed. that said i think iron moth is alright right now because getting past moon or garg with this takes both good skill and good luck, and in many games clicking discharge into a shocks or something comes with its own risks. ive not found them too hard to deal with, but perhaps thats only because they didnt parahax me too bad yet.
him
why should a pivoting move do so much damage? choice scarf sandy shocks dances around teams lacking a ground (rare but still) and still revenges a shit ton thanks to its absurd power even without a boosting item. its strong enough that it can be considered your secondary breaker. as a scarfer. life orb sandy shocks does not give a shit about common immunities and just click buttons and do real ridiculous damages to most everything. granted, both have pretty exploitable weaknesses: choiced sets have to play prediction games every turn it comes in while life orbed variants wears itself down and is in a bit of trouble if it sees something that can actually walls it - while shocks is powerful enough to run life orb pivot and get away with it (incredible in itself tbh) life orbed variants cannot still be a momentum generators unlike scarfed ones because youre killing yourself with your orb. that said, every team right now has to ask itself the question: whats my gameplan when sandy shocks comes in? if your only vs switchin is regenvest moon, and scarf can brainlessly volt while youre forced into moon every single time, thats a problem. and if youre relying on immunities to deal with shocks, life orbed variants can just run over you.
shocks is really a different kind of pivot. with others you can predict a uturn and stay in to do something, but with shocks youre more inclined to switch because not much wants to take a stab terrain-boosted hadron-boosted volt switch and face the next guy that comes in. this absurd power gives even scarf variants wallbreaking properties, but common immunities kind of keeps it in check.
meows feels both super awesome and super awkward at the same time. it packs some really impressive offensive role compression between knock pivot hazards and speed. mglo meows with trick/knock/uturn/spikes is a nigh-untouchable pivot that is annoyingly difficult to deal with thanks to flower trick's deceptively strong power and ability to irritate your switches with its other three moves. band sor packs the biggest knock off in the game providing easy early game progress while still functioning as a pivot and breaker as the game goes on. then you have scarf sets and dazzling sets that only further maintains its position as the speed demon of the tier and while those are rather weak theyre still annoying and are pretty damn good at what they do.
what im trying to say here is that meows is a mon that you can really really want to just slap onto your team for all it can do. but the annoying thing is that, well, in an actual game its often annoying for meows to actually get what it wants to get done done. ill ignore band sor here, since its primarily a wallbreaker and isnt one of the slappable variants anyway, and focus on mglo and scarf/boots sets. the key question is: who are you gonna get meows in on? when you think about it, if you want it to go knocking or spiking, you have ghold, nacl, ting, and somewhat-chipped moths. well and good, but engineering those situations can be surprisingly annoying, as they are either too slow for meows to get slowpivoted in or exerts enough offensive pressure to make meows feel nervous about coming in. meanwhile, getting meows in on other mons is real frustrating because its just weak enough to be unable to seriously threaten other defensive mons while just frail enough to not want to take the hits (even ting is sometimes ok with trading a couple of hits with the otherwise-untouchable cat and regen out).
so ok, cool, so what? quite a few other mons have the same issues, but the thing is meows has a kit that makes you want to get it in often to remove items and set spikes. unlike moth, which can heal rather easily with morning sun allowing it to play more aggressively, often it feels like you have to play rather carefully with meows, making it feel like it actually doesnt get that much done over the course of the game. maybe thats not the case for most of yall. maybe (hell, probably) its just that im not a good player, but that is how i feel all too often with meows. but its revenge killing abilities are still pretty nice and its tools are still there, albeit not actually as useful as you'd expect, so its still quite easy to slap it onto a team like a bandaid.
i should mention greninja dont have such a large problem largely because primsea surf/hydro pump gives it quite a bit more room to spike, though it does not pack knock off.
(second moth, dont mind me)
i do love this mon right now. not the banded sets, mind you, though im sure they cant be bad. but bulky slither wing is probably one the best tusk answers you can ask for - it easily eats whatever move it can run, threatens it with a burn, and pivot out on it. tusk sets are annoying to come by now, and slither being able to both exploit and cripple it is really nice. wbb variants is not a mean ace answer either, while tablets or even regen are also pretty nice. and even an uninvested stab uturn off base 135 atk isnt something just anything can take, so between uturn/wisp/brick brake it is surprisingly competant at keeping certain annoying things away from it.
yeah yeah half my messages in the aaa channel is related to this thing its bout time i posted about it
Iron Jugulis @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Taunt / Knock Off
(i swear to god this is not stolen from bug ive been trying to build around it for weeks but scales was legal+noivern was legal+i forgot/chose to not remember focus blast was a move)
the legendary jug. absolutely godly so long as you hit your shots. sflo iron jugulis absolutely loves all the corv/tusk/ghold based cores running around, and once its in (it will get in every team has at least one mon it can fire off shots on) they will find its dark/flying stabs both incredibly difficult to switch into and unreasonably powerful. hurricane can 2hko sdef ting and dark pulse does over 70 to 252/0 corv. focus blast is unfortunately necessary for all the moons and garganacls running around, but somehow still manage to shut down near every single switchin to its stabs short of blobs. for the last move, i do like taunt to totally shut down clod, deny ting's hazards, and allows jug to break through pex and non-regen blisseys. knock off is weird on a lo set but lets you remove moon's vest and proceed to send it directly to hell with focus blast. modest ties +1 0 spe tusk and gets you quite a few rolls like one-two tapping rv moon with cane into focus blast, but timid outspeed all unscarfed shocks and chi-yu.
best part? no choice lock! not nearly as much guesswork (predictions) as choiced breakers, just prayers that your cane or focus miss you hit.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1807482509-3jgxo1i29qie42dzhcjebevrtqf2hkqpw i usually dont save replays, and please ignore some...suspect plays by me (i thought that gholdengo was scarfed even when the leftovers were right there, for one). but watch how jugulis farmed opportunities on tusk and gholdengo (before my brain told me its scarf) to eventually break through garg with repeated attacks and tspikes chip. (also the corv should not be coat i had just replaced moon with ting but forgot to take coat off)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 265-312 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 181-213 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 447-530 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 221-263 (53.3 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(37+53+12 means cane+focus+hazards guarentees a ko on rv moon)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Roaring Moon: 250-296 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roaring Moon: 333-393 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (knock sets)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 239-283 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 265-313 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 320-376 (82.9 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
thanks for putting up with all that. i bet 90% of it was like mad man's ramblings. maybe ill edit with thoughts on ghold and gar later.
you assume houndstone actually needs web/terrain/weather support to sweep, while those help scarf supreme overlord is perfectly capable of reverse 6-0ing teams that lack a hard answer (ting liu, tusk, sucker punch, your own scarf), and if tusk ever goes that would just be one less answer
scarf stone hits a really bad speed tier, and there isn't really a need to run a dedicated check. scarf ghold, sandy, etc all outrun it and do some damage to it, theres like a hundred priority moves in the tier (dnite, gambit, [hatterene and bax do a bit of chip]), the chien and other +1 sweepers that just outspeed it like dancing duck and dancing moth. you're playing a 5-6 battle for a mu reliant mon that can just reverse a win, but its teammates needs to be able to deal with many, many offensive threats that otherwise make it dead weight (bax, dnite can yeet it out of existence after their dance). that's just offensive mons. sure, few defensive mons that can live it exist but as you stated, ting-lu and tusk are checks and are quite common, just about any scarfer will outspeed it. while it can win games easily, it is mu reliant to a major extent, and i would prioritise action on other mons like as you stated, bax, and many other mons that relied on gholdenjoe as their check if joe were to be banned, like ekiller nite.
speaking abt ekiller nite, ive been using low kick to completely remove garg and kingambit. it does have a sad 80 bp against corvi but what can you do anyway?
scarf stone hits a really bad speed tier, and there isn't really a need to run a dedicated check. scarf ghold, sandy, etc all outrun it and do some damage to it, theres like a hundred priority moves in the tier (dnite, gambit, [hatterene and bax do a bit of chip]), the chien and other +1 sweepers that just outspeed it like dancing duck and dancing moth. you're playing a 5-6 battle for a mu reliant mon that can just reverse a win, but its teammates needs to be able to deal with many, many offensive threats that otherwise make it dead weight (bax, dnite can yeet it out of existence after their dance). that's just offensive mons. sure, few defensive mons that can live it exist but as you stated, ting-lu and tusk are checks and are quite common, just about any scarfer will outspeed it. while it can win games easily, it is mu reliant to a major extent, and i would prioritise action on other mons like as you stated, bax, and many other mons that relied on gholdenjoe as their check if joe were to be banned, like ekiller nite.
speaking abt ekiller nite, ive been using low kick to completely remove garg and kingambit. it does have a sad 80 bp against corvi but what can you do anyway?
In fairness, just because there are other mons that will most likely need action, doesn't mean we can't tack Houndstone onto that list either. Despite the checks and limits that Houndstone inherently has, I've disliked Houndstone being in the tier ever since Fur Coat. I won't go particularly in-depth now but for me, this MU reliance can be pretty stupid, either being useless into or utterly dominating some team structures with an annoying effect when teambuilding. Also Houndstone can fairly reliably get the boost to go (ETerrain + Terrain Extender support) and Scarf is still fast enough to outspeed non-Scarf Greninja, Meowscarada, Kilowattrel and Cinderace, Houndstone also can live the priority from these and just sweep anyway depending on its HP, + Screens support (I'm too lazy and busy to calc). But this is just me, and hey, Scarf Greninja is always a thing that I'm willing to spread propaganda for people to use.
I think I've honed in on the best hazard stack control denier combo currently
gag gholdengo and fluffy brambleghast
so gag gholdengo switches into corv all day, you resist rocks and can run lefties, nothing can be done to defog, corv is by far the most popular, altaria can't do anything, hawlucha can't do anything, maybe talonflame can, also blocks mortal spin btw, also blocks brambleghast rapid spin
then fluffy brambleghast, you switch into the elephants all day, after knock off just strength sap, scrappy elephants are bad and shouldn't be used, also you can set up spikes and rapid spin yourself
enjoy how I've contributed to over centralizing the meta to the next level skeledirge is old news
run these mons with hazard support, bramble already has spikes so, you should probably just run great tusk with stealth rock like everyone else, so now 3 spots on your team are locked in
also if gholdengo gets banned, I've already got a replacement, similar to roar gag skeledirge, try whirlwind gag hippowdown, you resist rocks, can run lefties, corv again can't do anything, hazards stay up, is mold breaker corv going to be a thing soon
Hadron Engine provides a smaller boost (since Terrain is only 1.3x compared to weather’s 1.5x), we have fewer good special Electrics than physical Fires, and Fire-type coverage has no non-ability immunities. While Hadron Engine is good, I would not say it’s next on our list.
Opps I didn't know the damage had been changed and it hasn't been updated on the pokemondb site.
As for gen 4 i forgot how to read Roman numerals.
Sorry about that.
I think I've honed in on the best hazard stack control denier combo currently
gag gholdengo and fluffy brambleghast
so gag gholdengo switches into corv all day, you resist rocks and can run lefties, nothing can be done to defog, corv is by far the most popular, altaria can't do anything, hawlucha can't do anything, maybe talonflame can, also blocks mortal spin btw, also blocks brambleghast rapid spin
then fluffy brambleghast, you switch into the elephants all day, after knock off just strength sap, scrappy elephants are bad and shouldn't be used, also you can set up spikes and rapid spin yourself
enjoy how I've contributed to over centralizing the meta to the next level skeledirge is old news
run these mons with hazard support, bramble already has spikes so, you should probably just run great tusk with stealth rock like everyone else, so now 3 spots on your team are locked in
also if gholdengo gets banned, I've already got a replacement, similar to roar gag skeledirge, try whirlwind gag hippowdown, you resist rocks, can run lefties, corv again can't do anything, hazards stay up, is mold breaker corv going to be a thing soon
doesn't this core just lose to gholdengo, gengar and other ghosts / darks?
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Brambleghast: 356-420 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 288-342 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
no one uses hp spa gholden, solidifying my point
this also loses to fire types btw
doesn't this core just lose to gholdengo, gengar and other ghosts / darks?
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Brambleghast: 356-420 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 288-342 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
no one uses hp spa gholden, solidifying my point
this also loses to fire types btw
ok i feel like i really shouldn't need to clarify this but a little thing on delta stream:
delta stream removes an ice, electric, or rock weakness when targeting a flying-type ONLY. delta stream does literally nothing for non-flying-types except overriding desland/primsea, which if you really wanted to do, you'd run them yourself or simply use another ability. evidence but this really is just a "read the description" moment.
this sort of leads into something about bax, as some of the very few consistent answers are either near-hard walls like intim curse dozo or delta bodypress corv, with some stray one-time options like shuca gholdengo also existing. i think in general bax is sort of like BH palkia-o in this respect, where you either bring a hard wall or get bullied if you give it any opportunity and don't have a guaranteed way to RK it - this basically mandates teams bringing LO hatterene or one of the above to not lose to it, which inevitably collapses with shed tail, screens, or even simply keeping bax's set (band or DD) hidden so they don't know what they need to preserve. i don't think this is really good for the tier, especially if gholdengo gets axed and EE can't scare it out in the short-term, but even if ghold stays i think this is too restricting. reliance on priority to check it also inevitably means more chance to get shut down by random dazzling, which just fuels the immunity lottery even more, and the pool of scarfers that can both KO healthy bax and not die to ice shard is really small (and none switch in).
tl;dr - delta stream only works on flying-types, bax should probably go
to me the meta feels quite centralized rn a bit more than id personally like. every time i build a team the same 6 mons always appear in my head and almost always at least 3-4 gets in. im talking about corv, tusk, moth, joe, garg, and moon. hell you can probably make a team with those exact 6 and be ok. take a look at Siamato's stats posted above and youll see many players feel similarly - there just isnt many other mons that can glue and check shit as well as they can. and thats partially because theres always those few threats that you always have to account for in the builder, no matter what, or you just get rolled by them. chief among them imo are bax, shocks, and fires in general. honestly how i often feel when teambuilding is pretty much in LordBox's signature - sometimes im just tempted to shuffle my offensive mons, keep the defensive core more or less unchanged, and call them new teams.
some thoughts:
not much for me to say here that others havent already said. bax forcing one of its handful of counters onto every team and still breaking em half the time is nothing short of ridiculous. probably definitely go asap after the suspect.
(im biased here, i love all three moths, they are beautiful but bear with me)
im happy that people are respecting iron moth a lot more now in many different ways. its just so unique here and does so so much that no other mon can dream to do. it is a rare viable water immunity that has any sort of longevity, a very powerful fire that forces the opponent to mind their well-baked body or rv moon throughout the game, its typing and stats gives it deceptively strong defensive utility and combined with that offensive force allows it to play more aggressively and abuse morning sun's massive healing easily, tspikes and discharge yellow magic provides unique support for teams and even itself, and its got uturn to do uturn things. its just so damn good and so easily slappable on so many teams.
regarding the offensive sets Siamato posted above, i still believe fast desolate land sets are far and away the best, and those two sets mentioned are easily annoyed by garganacl and moon (parahax aside), but when those two are the specially defensive linchpins on their team they could really be rather easily overwhelmed. that said i think iron moth is alright right now because getting past moon or garg with this takes both good skill and good luck, and in many games clicking discharge into a shocks or something comes with its own risks. ive not found them too hard to deal with, but perhaps thats only because they didnt parahax me too bad yet.
him
why should a pivoting move do so much damage? choice scarf sandy shocks dances around teams lacking a ground (rare but still) and still revenges a shit ton thanks to its absurd power even without a boosting item. its strong enough that it can be considered your secondary breaker. as a scarfer. life orb sandy shocks does not give a shit about common immunities and just click buttons and do real ridiculous damages to most everything. granted, both have pretty exploitable weaknesses: choiced sets have to play prediction games every turn it comes in while life orbed variants wears itself down and is in a bit of trouble if it sees something that can actually walls it - while shocks is powerful enough to run life orb pivot and get away with it (incredible in itself tbh) life orbed variants cannot still be a momentum generators unlike scarfed ones because youre killing yourself with your orb. that said, every team right now has to ask itself the question: whats my gameplan when sandy shocks comes in? if your only vs switchin is regenvest moon, and scarf can brainlessly volt while youre forced into moon every single time, thats a problem. and if youre relying on immunities to deal with shocks, life orbed variants can just run over you.
shocks is really a different kind of pivot. with others you can predict a uturn and stay in to do something, but with shocks youre more inclined to switch because not much wants to take a stab terrain-boosted hadron-boosted volt switch and face the next guy that comes in. this absurd power gives even scarf variants wallbreaking properties, but common immunities kind of keeps it in check.
meows feels both super awesome and super awkward at the same time. it packs some really impressive offensive role compression between knock pivot hazards and speed. mglo meows with trick/knock/uturn/spikes is a nigh-untouchable pivot that is annoyingly difficult to deal with thanks to flower trick's deceptively strong power and ability to irritate your switches with its other three moves. band sor packs the biggest knock off in the game providing easy early game progress while still functioning as a pivot and breaker as the game goes on. then you have scarf sets and dazzling sets that only further maintains its position as the speed demon of the tier and while those are rather weak theyre still annoying and are pretty damn good at what they do.
what im trying to say here is that meows is a mon that you can really really want to just slap onto your team for all it can do. but the annoying thing is that, well, in an actual game its often annoying for meows to actually get what it wants to get done done. ill ignore band sor here, since its primarily a wallbreaker and isnt one of the slappable variants anyway, and focus on mglo and scarf/boots sets. the key question is: who are you gonna get meows in on? when you think about it, if you want it to go knocking or spiking, you have ghold, nacl, ting, and somewhat-chipped moths. well and good, but engineering those situations can be surprisingly annoying, as they are either too slow for meows to get slowpivoted in or exerts enough offensive pressure to make meows feel nervous about coming in. meanwhile, getting meows in on other mons is real frustrating because its just weak enough to be unable to seriously threaten other defensive mons while just frail enough to not want to take the hits (even ting is sometimes ok with trading a couple of hits with the otherwise-untouchable cat and regen out).
so ok, cool, so what? quite a few other mons have the same issues, but the thing is meows has a kit that makes you want to get it in often to remove items and set spikes. unlike moth, which can heal rather easily with morning sun allowing it to play more aggressively, often it feels like you have to play rather carefully with meows, making it feel like it actually doesnt get that much done over the course of the game. maybe thats not the case for most of yall. maybe (hell, probably) its just that im not a good player, but that is how i feel all too often with meows. but its revenge killing abilities are still pretty nice and its tools are still there, albeit not actually as useful as you'd expect, so its still quite easy to slap it onto a team like a bandaid.
i should mention greninja dont have such a large problem largely because primsea surf/hydro pump gives it quite a bit more room to spike, though it does not pack knock off.
(second moth, dont mind me)
i do love this mon right now. not the banded sets, mind you, though im sure they cant be bad. but bulky slither wing is probably one the best tusk answers you can ask for - it easily eats whatever move it can run, threatens it with a burn, and pivot out on it. tusk sets are annoying to come by now, and slither being able to both exploit and cripple it is really nice. wbb variants is not a mean ace answer either, while tablets or even regen are also pretty nice. and even an uninvested stab uturn off base 135 atk isnt something just anything can take, so between uturn/wisp/brick brake it is surprisingly competant at keeping certain annoying things away from it.
yeah yeah half my messages in the aaa channel is related to this thing its bout time i posted about it
Iron Jugulis @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Taunt / Knock Off
(i swear to god this is not stolen from bug ive been trying to build around it for weeks but scales was legal+noivern was legal+i forgot/chose to not remember focus blast was a move)
the legendary jug. absolutely godly so long as you hit your shots. sflo iron jugulis absolutely loves all the corv/tusk/ghold based cores running around, and once its in (it will get in every team has at least one mon it can fire off shots on) they will find its dark/flying stabs both incredibly difficult to switch into and unreasonably powerful. hurricane can 2hko sdef ting and dark pulse does over 70 to 252/0 corv. focus blast is unfortunately necessary for all the moons and garganacls running around, but somehow still manage to shut down near every single switchin to its stabs short of blobs. for the last move, i do like taunt to totally shut down clod, deny ting's hazards, and allows jug to break through pex and non-regen blisseys. knock off is weird on a lo set but lets you remove moon's vest and proceed to send it directly to hell with focus blast. modest ties +1 0 spe tusk and gets you quite a few rolls like one-two tapping rv moon with cane into focus blast, but timid outspeed all unscarfed shocks and chi-yu.
best part? no choice lock! not nearly as much guesswork (predictions) as choiced breakers, just prayers that your cane or focus miss you hit.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1807482509-3jgxo1i29qie42dzhcjebevrtqf2hkqpw i usually dont save replays, and please ignore some...suspect plays by me (i thought that gholdengo was scarfed even when the leftovers were right there, for one). but watch how jugulis farmed opportunities on tusk and gholdengo (before my brain told me its scarf) to eventually break through garg with repeated attacks and tspikes chip. (also the corv should not be coat i had just replaced moon with ting but forgot to take coat off)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 265-312 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 181-213 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 447-530 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 221-263 (53.3 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(37+53+12 means cane+focus+hazards guarentees a ko on rv moon)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Roaring Moon: 250-296 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roaring Moon: 333-393 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (knock sets)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 239-283 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 265-313 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 320-376 (82.9 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
thanks for putting up with all that. i bet 90% of it was like mad man's ramblings. maybe ill edit with thoughts on ghold and gar later.
that's me from the replay, great game! I was wondering why that jug was hitting so hard lol. also on MGLO meow: it also can switch in pretty comfortably on pex and clod, which ghold can't if they're corrosion (even 4x effective infestation from pex does like 20 max). since those aren't super common, however, I definitely agree that it's not the easiest to get on the field.
Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- U-turn
- Flash Cannon
Whilst, not the best Dragon-, or even Dark-type, Mega Launcher Hydreigon has a special place in my heart. Mainly because it shreds Corvi, Tusk, and Iron Moth, it does have a hard time with good Dark-type resists such as Ting-Lu.
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 235-277 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 499-588 (114.9 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Iron Moth: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Iron Moth: 204-241 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 229-270 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 121-143 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 118-140 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 252-297 (49 - 57.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 68-81 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 288-342 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scream Tail: 253-298 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 163-192 (44.1 - 52%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 173-204 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 205-243 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 219-258 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
At first I was holding off to find out if Hydro Steam works in Desolate Land or not (If it ends up working in DLand, then Specs + PrimSea is definitely an option too), but it doesn't seem to matter. Boosted Draco Meteor cooks pretty much everything, and our common SpDef mons (RegenVest Roaring Moon, Sand Stream Garganacl, Iron Moth, Corviknight and Gholdengo sometimes) will either adapt or be switched out for something else entirely. We'll see what this ends up looking like in practice, but in theory...this mon looks absolutely horrifying to play against :O
The Speed is actually really good in this metagame as well. 348 outspeeds pretty much every defensive mon, and stuff like Gengar, Scarf Sandy Shocks, Greninja, and Kilowattrel can't easily OHKO Walking Wake anyway.
Hurricane exists I guess, but I haven't really figured out why you'd ever click it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Iron Moth: 294-346 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 319-378 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 222-262 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 333-393 (88 - 103.9%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gholdengo: 267-315 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 280-330 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Double posting just to point out that Virizion-L was also released, but I'd rather eat a shoe than try and make it viable. In theory you could try and use TInted Lens...or Sharpness...maybe? Idk, I plan to just leave it in the teambuilder until someone 6-0s me on ladder with the truth so I can copy them. I'm happy for anyone to tell me if you've thought of something awesome :]
View attachment 495455
Double posting just to point out that Virizion-L was also released, but I'd rather eat a shoe than try and make it viable. In theory you could try and use TInted Lens...or Sharpness...maybe? Idk, I plan to just leave it in the teambuilder until someone 6-0s me on ladder with the truth so I can copy them, but you can tell me if you've thought of something awesome :]
At first I was holding off to find out if Hydro Steam works in Desolate Land or not (If it ends up working in DLand, then Specs + PrimSea is definitely an option too), but it doesn't seem to matter. Boosted Draco Meteor cooks pretty much everything, and our common SpDef mons (RegenVest Roaring Moon, Sand Stream Garganacl, Iron Moth, Corviknight and Gholdengo sometimes) will either adapt or be switched out for something else entirely. We'll see what this ends up looking like in practice, but in theory...this mon looks absolutely horrifying to play against :O
The Speed is actually really good in this metagame as well. 348 outspeeds pretty much every defensive mon, and stuff like Gengar, Scarf Sandy Shocks, Greninja, and Kilowattrel can't easily OHKO Walking Wake anyway.
Hurricane exists I guess, but I haven't really figured out why you'd ever click it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Iron Moth: 294-346 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 319-378 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 222-262 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 333-393 (88 - 103.9%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gholdengo: 267-315 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tatsugiri Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 280-330 (70.1 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock / Encore
- Dazzling Gleam
I sometimes run this to check gren/water tauros/quaquaval/barraskewda/killowattrel but I realized it'd be great for walking wake too. EV's are to improve chances of living a hit from boosted talonflame but can be customized to fit one's needs. I usually like spdef since the physical mons this thing switches into are usually hard walled by typing with no need for investment.
Iron Leaves @ Choice Band
Ability: Sharpness / Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psyblade
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
So according to this post, Psyblade is boosted by Sharpness. If this is confirmed via the game's code then I think this is a HUGE boost in viability for Iron Leaves. Sharpness + ETerrian lets Psyblade hit 180 BP before STAB, which is more powerful than an Aerialate Boomburst. Although it does require more support than an -ate Boomburst, this + coverage for the very few Darks in the tier + Gholdengo likely leaving will ensure that Iron Leaves becomes a niche but solid breaker imo. The only caveat is that the move is not programmed correctly, so it won't get the boost from ETerrian right now, but when it works properly, expect to see this with Sandy Shocks quite a bit.
"But Volt Absorb Corv!" Bad ability + Brave Bird doesn't OHKO from full + 252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Iron Leaves Psyblade in Electric Terrian vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 153-180 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock + you can run Tinted Lens if you truly want to deny Corvid a switch-in.
ok i feel like i really shouldn't need to clarify this but a little thing on delta stream:
delta stream removes an ice, electric, or rock weakness when targeting a flying-type ONLY. delta stream does literally nothing for non-flying-types except overriding desland/primsea, which if you really wanted to do, you'd run them yourself or simply use another ability. evidence but this really is just a "read the description" moment.
this sort of leads into something about bax, as some of the very few consistent answers are either near-hard walls like intim curse dozo or delta bodypress corv, with some stray one-time options like shuca gholdengo also existing. i think in general bax is sort of like BH palkia-o in this respect, where you either bring a hard wall or get bullied if you give it any opportunity and don't have a guaranteed way to RK it - this basically mandates teams bringing LO hatterene or one of the above to not lose to it, which inevitably collapses with shed tail, screens, or even simply keeping bax's set (band or DD) hidden so they don't know what they need to preserve. i don't think this is really good for the tier, especially if gholdengo gets axed and EE can't scare it out in the short-term, but even if ghold stays i think this is too restricting. reliance on priority to check it also inevitably means more chance to get shut down by random dazzling, which just fuels the immunity lottery even more, and the pool of scarfers that can both KO healthy bax and not die to ice shard is really small (and none switch in).
tl;dr - delta stream only works on flying-types, bax should probably go
while we're talking about bax I would like to shill stamina corviknight which I think can still beat the bax options like screens and shed tail that you mentioned, also better vs more physical attackers in general especially chien pao, dragonite, meow the list goes on, a lot of teams just like to stack a bunch of physical sweepers/attackers so this comes in handy cleaning those up
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Body Press
- Brave Bird
WOOO HISUIAN ZOROARK IS HERE!!!! about time gamefreak let my favorite mon in the game.
anyways, have some celebratory sets and small explanations
Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- U-turn
pivot mon/wallbreaker, shadow ball is better than bitter malice in most situations.
Zoroark-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- Dark Pulse/Focus Blast
- U-turn/Nasty Plot
just a SFLO set, nothing too special. decent coverage and nasty plot is, well, nasty. not a mon to second guess.
Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn
what has science done. this set is certainly not good but it sure is funny! hyper beam TEARS through anything, you could also swap the ability for pixilate/galvanize/aerilate for extra funnies.
Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower/Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb/Psychic
- U-turn
haven't tested this, but this mon gets insane coverage, give it a try
i have been brainstorming a few ways to check wakey wines walking wakes so will post some stuff here (this is assuming specs beads wakes). part of the issue here is that dedenne is the only dragon resist that isn't weak to fire and has u-turn, except it has no bulk so for all intensive purposes you're working with wabsorb stuff or regenvesters with no pivot moves.
Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Play Rough
- Bulldoze
- Ice Spinner
this is the best wakes check but is also both an azumarill and taking the regen slot. bulldoze prevents desland moth from being completely free, ice spinner potentially 2HKOes dnite but the damage increase over prough is marginal so you might want aqua jet instead. this mon has no reliable recovery so if you want to use it to check wakes it WILL be taking your regen slot, also is a regenvest with no pivoting. generally wouldn't recommend but it exists.
doesn't take the regen slot like azu does but in turn you can get crit past with flamethrower and are relying on wish for recovery. florges is marginally bulkier and has access to synthesis but lacks any utility, so while you live wakes better you're giving free entry to pretty much all the relevant threats in the tier.
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: ??? Not Unaware
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Shadow Ball / Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
blobs are about as "normal" as counters get but also means you're running blobs. the funny thing is you can't even go physdef because specs pump 2HKOes after hazards, nor can you use unaware because it can just spam draco and 2HKO even spdef bliss after moderate chip. chansey's evio means it doesn't have to worry about these calcs but you lose boots which stings and shadow ball comes off of 35 SpA rather than 75 meaning you cannot meaningfully damage gholdengo.
this thing is actually just palkia-o lite lmao, only consistent checks are barely-viable full-immunes but this one doesn't have imp to scare it and doesn't really have to worry about getting out-offensed because its a specs breaker. this thing probably needs to get the boot very soon.
An iron leaves set I have been grinding with
Iron Leaves @ Choice Band
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Psyblade
- Night Slash
- Wild Charge/Any coverage
(Why doesn't sharpness boost psyblade?!?)
