Almost Any Ability ORAS

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I took this team, which consists of 5 gale wings users, and easily laddered from 1050 to #1 on the ladder, going on a 13-0 winstreak. The thing is, all of their usual checks (regirock, zapdos, skarmory, doublade, etc.) can be defeated by the special gale wings users or Rotom-Wash. In the end, the gale wings pokemon whittle down their counters so quickly, that those counters can hardly be considered counters anymore.

While I'm not pushing for a straight-out ban right now, I'm going to try to start some discussion; how do you people check/counter gale wings? Because clearly, if these ladder players had counters, they didn't do their job.
I know I already talked to you on PS about it, but I figured I would share some thoughts on this here too.

The first problem with the team itself is that it's 5 pokemon relying on 1 pokemon to remove a common check they all have, but that 1 pokemon doesn't have a trapping mechanic. One of the big reasons something like gen 5 dragspam was as good as it was is because magnezone could eliminate every steel type bar heatran, which wasn't hard to wear down. The prominent checks to galewings aren't easily trapped. Rock and Electric types, as well as doublade can't be trapped with magnet pull, and arena trap and shadow tag are banned (outside of gothitelle). Honch's pursuit can still be dangerous if played well, but the checks to gale wings aren't necessarily weak to it, per say. Trapping magnifies how potent any threat can be (look at the Gene-Duggy and Lando-i/TTar/Keldeo cores of gen5), this problem is not present with gale wings, which makes it substantially less threatening (albeit still so).

I'd also like to mention Poison Heal Diancie as another very strong hard counter to gale wings users, as it can handle Braviary, Honchkrow, Staraptor, and Tornadus by itself courtesy of it's fantastic typing that resists their Normal, Flying, and Dark stabs, their uturns, the heat waves, and is neutral to their fighting coverage. It's high mixed bulk means it can take both physical and special gale wings users, and poison heal lets it stay healthy throughout the match. Countering galewings is what it is there for and what it does best, but it is hardly dead weight against teams without it.

In regards to chatot specifically, it's not completely unmanageable, as long as you have a few checks to it if your primary check gets haxed. Common Unaware walls usually have a few opportunities to attack it, as do dedicated special walls, as do faster pranksters or faster priority, as does your primary gale wings check. It also really doesn't like losing it's sash to sand or SR. As long as you don't play with the mindset that you have a "chatot counter" and rather a couple "chatot checks" you will probably do a lot better against it.

Now someone did mention that it's no different than prankster confuse ray which is extremely false. Chatter deals respectable damage with a very good offensive type, and is alot harder to just switch out of the confusion because of that. Chatter works very similar to swagplay, which causes confusion and boosts damage with 1 move (swagger) and deals damage with another (foul play), chatot just switches up the roles of the moves a bit causing confusion and dealing damage with 1 move (chatter) and boosting with another (nasty plot), in essence they both do the same thing, except that you can't just switch out of chatot and make it all go away. Honestly Chatot's move layout is, imo, quite a bit more effective than that of swagplay. The reasoning behind swagplay's ban can very easily be made precedent for a chatot or chatter ban, and I would support it because of this. It's the same thing, promoting play based on luck rather than skill.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-188245266 - just an extra replay i had on hand for curiosities.

edit: Just to make it clear though, I would be very against a gale wings ban, as it is just a very strong ability, not a broken one.
 
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Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
But the extra threat to Chatot is that it can set up in the mean time and potentially sweep half your team, if not your whole team.
The key word is potentially. The chance that it actually sweeps you is very small.

Now someone did mention that it's no different than prankster confuse ray which is extremely false. Chatter deals respectable damage with a very good offensive type, and is alot harder to just switch out of the confusion because of that. Chatter works very similar to swagplay, which causes confusion and boosts damage with 1 move (swagger) and deals damage with another (foul play), chatot just switches up the roles of the moves a bit causing confusion and dealing damage with 1 move (chatter) and boosting with another (nasty plot), in essence they both do the same thing, except that you can't just switch out of chatot and make it all go away. Honestly Chatot's move layout is, imo, quite a bit more effective than that of swagplay. The reasoning behind swagplay's ban can very easily be made precedent for a chatot or chatter ban, and I would support it because of this. It's the same thing, promoting play based on luck rather than skill.
I did not say that there is no difference, just that anything with a hax based move like Confuse Ray could potentially beat its counters. I also did say that Chatot could do that and attack at the same time, and that the luck factor might be reason to at least suspect it.
 
The key word is potentially. The chance that it actually sweeps you is very small.



I did not say that there is no difference, just that anything with a hax based move like Confuse Ray could potentially beat its counters. I also did say that Chatot could do that and attack at the same time, and that the luck factor might be reason to at least suspect it.
I have had half my team swept by Chatot as it proceeded to BS its way past my checks/counters, setting up 2 Nasty Plots while I dealt confusion damage to myself and KOing the rest of my team with +4 Boomburst or Chatter. The only reason it didn't sweep my entire team instead of only half of it is because my opponent got bored of sweeping with Chatot and switched to the rest of their all-Gale Wings team. Which again proceeded to KO everything now that my bulky 'mons were out of the way.
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I have had half my team swept by Chatot as it proceeded to BS its way past my checks/counters, setting up 2 Nasty Plots while I dealt confusion damage to myself and KOing the rest of my team with +4 Boomburst or Chatter. The only reason it didn't sweep my entire team instead of only half of it is because my opponent got bored of sweeping with Chatot and switched to the rest of their all-Gale Wings team. Which again proceeded to KO everything now that my bulky 'mons were out of the way.
I have swept with Bibarel in ubers lol. You getting swept by it does not necessarily mean that it's banworthy. I am assuming that you use balance, because if an offensive team has no faster priority to deal with things like Chatot than the problem lies in your team, not in Chatot. I personally rarely seriously use stall in AAA, but since all Steel-types and Rock-types resist normal + flying, I fail to see how it can be more than annoying to it. Things like Heatran can definitely 2HKO Chatot while Chatot can only hope for some hax.

If you come with some good replays than you might convince me. Like I said before, I am not opposed to a Chatot suspect. I just don't think that we should just go ahead and ban it without even thinking about it that much.
 
Can someone explain to me why Keldeo was banned? Not questioning anything, just wondering why it was so good in this metagame in particular. I've searched the thread and can't find a concrete answer.
 
Can someone explain to me why Keldeo was banned? Not questioning anything, just wondering why it was so good in this metagame in particular. I've searched the thread and can't find a concrete answer.
There are no keldeo counters. It was unpredictable. More than 50% of teams had a water absorb ghost just for keldeo. And it could even perform a defensive role really really well. Ph keldeo countered bisharp / mamo / refrigirate entei and could destroy stall.
 
So seriously wanting Chatot banned seems seriously silly. Yeah you hate hax have a booboo key
but its just part of the game, I mean fuck, you can run prankster teeter dance, that isnt blocked by magic bounce and outhax if you want to.
But seriously, just look at the damn thing. Look at chatots stats.
Chatter + gale wings is the only thing its got. And it's nowhere near as powerful as extreme speeders with their ates or gale wings bravebird coming to your face or a facade toxic healer.

Chatot at best can turn the table at the late game by saving your ass with hax, but really, what is more hurt here, your egos or the metagame?

I mean god, if you really hate it just run one shield dust mon with hyper voice or priority, you will avoid sacred fires, zap cannons, dynamics, infernos, nuzzles, flinches and other hax based while you're at it.
 
So seriously wanting Chatot banned seems seriously silly. Yeah you hate hax have a booboo key
but its just part of the game, I mean fuck, you can run prankster teeter dance, that isnt blocked by magic bounce and outhax if you want to.
But seriously, just look at the damn thing. Look at chatots stats.
Chatter + gale wings is the only thing its got. And it's nowhere near as powerful as extreme speeders with their ates or gale wings bravebird coming to your face or a facade toxic healer.

Chatot at best can turn the table at the late game by saving your ass with hax, but really, what is more hurt here, your egos or the metagame?

I mean god, if you really hate it just run one shield dust mon with hyper voice or priority, you will avoid sacred fires, zap cannons, dynamics, infernos, nuzzles, flinches and other hax based while you're at it.
It also has Nasty Plot, Encore, and Boomburst though, and it can get Nasty Plots off with confusion hax/Encore and then sweep. Shield Dust would stop it, though, that's true.
 
Just gonna mention this set that absolutely wrecked me:

Terrakion @ Focus Sash
Ability: Refrigerate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

I can see what it does as a lead, being able to easily net a kill on almost every single other lead in the game. Still the surpries factor of getting smacked with an ice move is just painful. It easily deals with weakened birds and revenge kills half the things in the meta there are weak to ice.

But really, the replay speaks for itself:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-189910556
 
I just wanted to say that AAA probably needs an ability clause.
Gale wing spam seems to be gaining in popularity recently and while i don't consider gale wing to be broken. I just think a 6 gale wing team is pretty stupid since it really makes every battle completely matchup based.
If you face a team with a refrigirate Espeed, a skarmory or something like that, you basicly loose. But if the opponant isn't too prepared for gale wing (let's say he has maybe one check) you win. And that makes the ladder kinda uncompetitive and boring.
Also, what's the fun in just spamming bb with every pokemon ?

Gale wing isn't the only ability like that. Before the ban we had protean spam and I've seen some prankster spam or some imposter spam. All of them are again kinda stupid in my opinion.
I mean it's a thing in bh. Why not in AAA. Limit 2 (3?) pokemon with the same ability.
 
remember aerilate d-nite and aerilate noivern and refre weavile those were things before they got banned i remember i always get a refre weavile to deal with bird spam and d-nite noivern
 
If BH has an ability clause I don't see why AAA would not have one.
If you meant why AAA can't have one I agree, having 6 PH or Regenerators on the defensive side and 5 Gale Wing abusers and a Magnet puller on the offensive side can seriously take a hit on most teams that have no direct counter, and while yes, a good team has a dedicated counter but who runs Prankstet Skill swap, Worry seed or whatever seriously? While they might work, that is gimmicky as hell. Gale wings+ Magnet Puller also means that your steel counter can be taken out easily, even worse would be 4 Gale wings, a refridgerate and a puller where not even Zapdos can save you. This is a small example but I think people are ever more interested in Spam, birdspam, mixed birdspam (Srsly people use this,Specs Dragonite and Tornadus too good), Adapt. Pursuit+ Sucker punch spam, tough claw spam, etc...
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Completely different metagames. It's pretty unfair to say if one OM gets something another should too. It's up to the OM leader/council; another metagame's precedent should have no basis for this metagame's clauses. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just saying it's a fallacious argument.
Yeah, after thinking about it myself I realized that I wasn't really making a good argument lol. Another metagame's precedent should indeed have no basis for this metagame's clauses, but I don't think anyone would really disagree with one. Gale Wings spam, while not necessarily broken (I don't think it is), can easily overwhelm teams with only one check or even a 'counter'. And though I don't think full Regenerator / Poison Heal stall is effective at all, teams unprepared for such strategies can easily be worn down.
 
Yeah, after thinking about it myself I realized that I wasn't really making a good argument lol. Another metagame's precedent should indeed have no basis for this metagame's clauses, but I don't think anyone would really disagree with one. Gale Wings spam, while not necessarily broken (I don't think it is), can easily overwhelm teams with only one check or even a 'counter'. And though I don't think full Regenerator / Poison Heal stall is effective at all, teams unprepared for such strategies can easily be worn down.
Of course I didn't really mean 6 PH mons or 6 Regenerators, but I remember someone pre-Ability Clause BH( maybe it was AAA don't remember) having making a PH only team and it working fairly well, having even peaked first in ladder IRC, I know they are completely different metas but, If a person can build a team that only uses one( or 2) ability and be successful in ladder, peak top even, without it having any repercussions it certainly demotivates creative teambuilding and variety, also we should discuss other abilities that are underrated, like Competitive/Defiant and Guts.
 
Of course I didn't really mean 6 PH mons or 6 Regenerators, but I remember someone pre-Ability Clause BH( maybe it was AAA don't remember) having making a PH only team and it working fairly well, having even peaked first in ladder IRC, I know they are completely different metas but, If a person can build a team that only uses one( or 2) ability and be successful in ladder, peak top even, without it having any repercussions it certainly demotivates creative teambuilding and variety, also we should discuss other abilities that are underrated, like Competitive/Defiant and Guts.
Here you go: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ability-clause-pls-a-balanced-hackmons-team.3504605/

Anyway, even as someone who doesn't play AAA too much, I think it's extremely important that you consider BH and AAA as completely different entities. Though Double Ability Clause might end up being the best solution for AAA, it's important that we not go into a possible change predisposed to prefer that solution simply because it exists in BH already.
 
I'd be fine with a 2/team ability clause. If there are more than 2-3 of the same ability on one team it either shows it's a broken ability, a gimmick, or throws the game under the team match up bus. I would especially be fine with it if it meant potentially seeing protean retested as well, but that's for another discussion entirely.
 
I don't see why we need an ability clause. Espeed spam was stopped with the banning of protean; the only other spam move to win technique left is gale wings users, which I no longer believe is broken anyway. Most teams have 2 or more checks to gale wings spam, and it for bird spam teams facing something like ph rhyperior or regirock it can be nearly impossible to win. Anyway, what other "spam" abilties are there? I suppose someone could make the case for ph spam stall teams, but in my experience the best stall teams use several other abilities such as intimidate, unaware, gale wings, prankster, regenerator, magic bounce, and immunity abilities. Limiting them to 3 definitely wouldn't hurt, although 2 or 1 probably would. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is, why exactly do we need ability clause? If we decide gale wings is broken, we should just ban it instead of limiting what other abilities people can run.
 
Hi, just poking in, very new to AAA. Thinking of stuff.

How viable is Unburden in AAA? Sounds like it could work well in conjunction with White Herb, Absorb Bulb, Cell Battery, Snow Ball, Red Card, or holy crap weakness policy. Maybe even substitute/stat boosting berry?
Or tricking a choice item onto a wall and setting up nasty plot?
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
Hi, just poking in, very new to AAA. Thinking of stuff.

How viable is Unburden in AAA? Sounds like it could work well in conjunction with Weakness policy, White Herb, Absorb Bulb, Cell Battery, Snow Ball, or Red Card. Maybe even substitute/stat boosting berry.
Or tricking a choice item onto a wall and setting up nasty plot?
It's not as great as you'd probably think, due to the fact that Gale Wings is a thing (which outspeeds your speed buff), and occasionally -ate ExtremeSpeed.
 
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