AAA Almost Any Ability

[Siamato]

I disagree with the notion that people (especially some of those on the council) are refusing to try/scared to try/innovate/etc.
People are, people do. Some people make multiple different teams a day. Things have been attempted, if you don't see them then they just weren't able to be successful. Of course there is a bottomless pit of infinite potential to theory but with the past few months of AAA-ing the idea that nobody playing has bothered to try something new is absurd.

I think this is misinterpretation. Where did I say that the AAA council doesn't try to innovate?

The AAA council seems to consider the metagame as about fifteen mon viable and many other elements below of somehow much lower viability. On the other side, stats from OMPL or ladder clearly show a broader metagame with many B-ranked mons (Rotom-Wash, Glimmora, Tinkaton, Ceruledge, Hatterene, etc) with usage probably worth A-rank. Therefore, this picture of "CorvChompMothScream" everywhere might have been a bit outdated or, at least, didn't take into account most recent metagame developments.

If you're referring to those lines this is not what I say. I say the picture of the metagame depicted by these VRs doesn't seem to correspond to the reality of the metagame depicted by ladder stats and tournament stats. Even though that's not statistically ensured considering the lack of data for pre-home meta in OMPL XI, it's usually impossible to see a B+, 2 B and a C+ mon be part of the top10 of a competitive tournament lol. It's kind of a proof either VRs are not accurate either people are playing nonsense in tournaments. It can lead to think the council has a different perspective of the metagame about what's viable, not so viable and not viable. This has nothing to do with trying to innovate.
If any criticism of the council, it would be to the accuracy of VRs with respect the "real" picture (but you can just go to the resources thread to understand I'm bad about them so nothing new kek).

Something else I also noticed is the fact some seem to play a different metagame. Yes, CorvChompMothScream are top tier but they're far from being our only options. Perhaps some people are just lazy to try new things and innovate leading to redundant structures?

Here there is a generality (which are bad), it targetssome people and not directly the council. Again, this is just a fact. You're finding people that stick to this CorvMothChompScream + breaker + free pick and people that finds new and perhaps effective techs against this kind of "lazy" build (Tinkaton and Regen Rotom-W are good recent examples of that).

If you want proof, just read the OM discord on any given day for real it's unfathomable to claim people aren't trying things on a regular basis. Speaking only for myself here, but just because I'm not team dumping tens of terrible teams weekly doesn't mean I'm not in the lab :C

Misinterpretation again? I'm playing on the ladder and with quite creative teambuilders so I know there is a consistent will to try finding new effective things. But at the end of day facts also demonstrate some people aren't really trying and really stick to consistent top tier or don't believe something else could work. Also there's a difference between innovating to innovate or innovating smartly (one is much more difficult).

Also, from what little I've seen about your teams a few times on ladder I know how terrible (but innovative) your teams were lmao (stall apart because you know well about those annoying but effective shits ).


Just wanted to clarify things because apparently I didn't make myself clear enough and it's quite easy to take things personally.

To apologize or at least close this "conflictual" parenthesis, I share a few sets I enjoyed so far.

Zapdos-Galar @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Thunderous Kick
- Bulk Up
- Agility

Nothing new but just a beast effective a breaking and even at sweeping. Just break so many teams alone. Counterplay is extremely limited and called Zapdos. Intimidate Corviknight works but only if Brave Bird otherwise it's just setup fodder.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Earth Eater
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Substitute

Used that in Enam meta relying on no Focus Blast or focus miss. It's some demon set like that crazy but hilarously effective Sandy Shocks. Iron Moth is a big issue for this set.

Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Fire Fang
- Earthquake / Thunder Fang
- U-turn

Pair that with a Knocker to remove Corv's RH and it's going to be pressed so bad.

 

[Acetraineraegis]

An argument against 2AC
Double regenerator



Seriously though, I think that 2AC would completely break Regenerator, as it enables endless switching if you don’t get two-shot This could be used to argue against Regen itself, and, while I do agree that it might be a bit too strong, 2AC could break a whole lot more.

 

[Acetraineraegis]

Zapdos-Galar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunderous Kick
- U-turn
- Drill Peck
- Facade
2HKOs max hp, sp def corviknight while also living a supereffective Brave Bird from it. I’ve used it to sweep a good amount of teams to within the range that I can just swap to a more defensive option to finish them off. It doesn’t really have a great movepool, but facade is useful for if you’re burned

 

[Grim_Blazer]

An argument against 2AC
Double regenerator



Seriously though, I think that 2AC would completely break Regenerator, as it enables endless switching if you don’t get two-shot This could be used to argue against Regen itself, and, while I do agree that it might be a bit too strong, 2AC could break a whole lot more.

Regen in a 2ac meta isnt actually that hard to break tbh, looking at last gen for an example it was never really that hard to out-damage regen cores with one of the many super strong breakers that we had (keep in mind that this was before stuff like beads of ruin so it'll be even easier to break them this gen) or if you don't want to run one of those crazy breakers for some reason you always have the option of running hazards to out-chip the regen mons on the other team. This is helped even more by the fact that so many mons lost defog this gen and so many more mons got hazards that didn't get them last gen. Others already mentioned this a couple times but the only time that regen cores could endlessly swap to recover health is when one team either lost their progress maker early, or if one of the teams wasn't built well and simply didnt have means of making progress. I personally have wanted 2AC back ever since the point when council announced that they were going to try SAC out for gen 9, it feels like we have much less creativity this gen when it comes to mons that actually work. Defensively you're restricted to like 6 mons of your choice, most of which require your regen slot, which results in a much less creative meta defensively imo.

 

[Acetraineraegis]

Regen in a 2ac meta isnt actually that hard to break tbh, looking at last gen for an example it was never really that hard to out-damage regen cores with one of the many super strong breakers that we had (keep in mind that this was before stuff like beads of ruin so it'll be even easier to break them this gen) or if you don't want to run one of those crazy breakers for some reason you always have the option of running hazards to out-chip the regen mons on the other team. This is helped even more by the fact that so many mons lost defog this gen and so many more mons got hazards that didn't get them last gen. Others already mentioned this a couple times but the only time that regen cores could endlessly swap to recover health is when one team either lost their progress maker early, or if one of the teams wasn't built well and simply didnt have means of making progress. I personally have wanted 2AC back ever since the point when council announced that they were going to try SAC out for gen 9, it feels like we have much less creativity this gen when it comes to mons that actually work. Defensively you're restricted to like 6 mons of your choice, most of which require your regen slot, which results in a much less creative meta defensively imo.

Definitely a lot of fair points, though I will stay adamant in at least waiting for the post-home meta to balance out before we consider retesting 2AC, it seems like there could be some things that could be a bit broken with 2 mons being able to use the same ability with completely different stab, defensive types, and such. As for teambuilding with 2AC, I personally feel that it can lead to a bit too much stacking of essentially the same role, and, in my opinion, this might lead to the OM getting a bit stale.

 

[LordBox]

Yeah this is something I was thinking about too. Speaking of last gen: how many special wall were NOT regenvesters? I genuinely only remember Blissey in that regard. This is a genuine question, I do not remember other non RV special mons.
I generally agree with everything Siamato said. Especially the fact that it's too early to panic and decide to actually do something.

About what Isaiah said: it's true that this meta feels a bit more restrictive to build, but only if we're talking about defensive options. And, in part, I agree that it's because people are generally scared of trying new things (bar the top... 15? 20? people on the ladder)
Anyway, let's try to have some fun!

Nearly none but I don't think this means anything considering we also have very few special walls that aren't RegenVest. The only ones that fit the bill would be Blissey (niche) and SS Garganacl (nearly dead in terms of popularity). Some extra thoughts on some of the proposals laid out by Siamato as well:

Poison Heal Resuspect:
I don't believe that Poison Heal has enough grounds for a resuspect. Poison Heal may add a somewhat nice defensive tool, but I don't see how it'd be different from freeing 2AC and seeing double Regen nearly everywhere and replacing it with Poison Heal + Regen everywhere. Poison Heal is also just far more overtly broken in for the setup it enables. We had it free during FurScales where we had far more broken offensive threats in the tier at the time like Iron Bundle, OPulse, Iron Valiant, Dragapult and even Fluttermane was banned after PHeal (I think?).

Granted, we also had better abusers for PHeal like Great Tusk and also Annihilape for a very short period of time but there's still plenty of prime abusers, example (anything with setup ever) and if you want to complain about too easily nullifying progress from dual Regen cores, Poison Heal can also stuff status spam as a way to soften up teams or even as an entire wincon as well.

Nuking Offensive Abilities
Banning 7-8 abilities at once seems like a super nuclear option for a last case scenario. Optimally (how I see it) we try to keep as much stuff free if they don't restrict the meta too harshly and banning so many abilities at once seems like a nuclear option for if the meta really is so stale or so skewed towards offense. While I don't appreciate the restriction on my ability to teambuild, 2AC seems more reasonable to try first, if at all and would nuke a lot of options for offense that may skew it too hard the other direction while offensive playstyles aren't that harshly affected by 2AC, see G8 AAA, and can even benefit nicely themselves (double MGLO, and can abuse RegenScarf mons themselves). Especially since 2AC actually has some precedent to base the effects on rather than nuking so many abilities at once.

━

On the rest, I would like to say as much as people innovated during the last weeks of pre-home OMPL, Chomp, ScreamTail, Corv and Iron Moth were still very popular and there was still a clear skew towards them. Maybe not the general core but it still showed the state of the meta, even if some people did use a few more niche mons like Washtom/Glim/Tinkaton more during OMPL that didn't change the entire outlook of the meta and it was still heavily skewed (and yeah you can complain about the VR placements but they are still by and large mostly lesser popular mons, particularly before OMPL). Home has come and new RegenVest mons have come to replace the old ones and while it's still hard to tell, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same effect of a centralised meta around the prevalent Regen mons given once again the nuclear threats we are forced to face.

I'm not exactly sure about forcing a certain playstyle? Generally (how I see it) we want to generally ensure a wide variety of playstyles are viable and usable, in an ideal environment. I don't know what is happening in OU, I don't touch the tier, but if a playstyle (or even core, as some complained) is overly dominant it's fair enough to pursue taking action to free up versatility in the teambuilder. Granted, in this post-home meta, we haven't had enough true time to gauge anything. HO has been very strong for the first week; see the first week of OMPL where 5/8 teams brought screens HO and only one other type of team won (being TNM's balance?) although generally you could say HO is always strong towards the start of the generation given the freed offensive threat. However there's nothing too suspect worthy (outside of Ursa I hate that thing although I wouldn't say it's broken just unhealthy) since we got rid of Enam and offensive threats continue to pressure the teambuilder immensely, like people were complaining about before and even brought the proposal of freeing IceScales. 2AC would undeniably help with the pressure felt and centralisation around the choice of a single Regen mon although whether this is justifiable and worth any perceived drawbacks is your own opinion (see dominance of double Regen). I personally think it would free more creativity and despite double Regen almost guaranteed to be dominant that it isn't really that bad and there's ton of creativity within double Regen teams.

2AC most likely will not be freed for the forseeable future, and I don't think anyone is pushing for a RFN suspect or release. The meta is still for the most part in a state of chaos, even if the vestiges of stability can be grasped on, we're not there yet and such a large change will most likely not be made at the very least until another survey to gauge the popularity amongst the general community to see if there will even be a resuspect. All the posts here defending it however are valid discussion and there's enough to talk about from the experiences from pre-Home and the continued experience building right now to shore up support for a potential proper resuspect in the future.

 

[ghostlike]

I don't know if sample submissions are still opened but if it is I want to submit my team.

I laddered to top 10 with this team so I think it is pretty consistent.

This team is built around Garchomp. Garchomp is the perfect lead in most of the cases as it can keep up rocks easily unless your opponent has WBB Corv. This set is not Regen but you can still heal it up with Scream Tail.

Most of the time you are going to try and weaken your opponent's defensive core with Zapdos and Garchomp. Zapdos can Volt Switch on most RegenVest mons to bring in Garchomp. Zapdos is also the only answer to the broken birds (Talonflame and Gapdos) so you want to keep it healthy against those match-up.

Muk-Alola is my favourite RegenVester. It can make permant progress with either Knock Off or Poison Fang and can take advantage of passive mons like Scream Tail really well. The downside is that it is not as ironclad as other RegenVesters like Goodra-Hisui or Meloetta so you have to be careful of strong wall breakers.

Your win con is Talonflame. I don't have much to say about this mon other than it is really good and can win game easily especially if your opponent's Corv is WBB.

Weakness:
This mon has a good match-up against most of your team. You kind of just have to pray that it is not Specs or else you will have to play out of your mind and get every predictions right. If it is Scarf then you are ok-ish since you can always switch to Muk. If it is not choice then try to dance around and heal up Muk.
The best way to win against strong wall breakers are to play aggressive and clean up with Talonflame. Try to keep Muk at high health and don't let them get in.

If anyone hates RegenVest, I have the solution for you:

Azelf @ Life Orb
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
252+ Atk Life Orb Azelf Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 394-464 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tinted Lens Azelf Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Goodra-Hisui: 374-442 (102.7 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Azelf Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 467-550 (115.5 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Azelf Explosion vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 471-555 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Need I say more?

 

[Izmagack]

been doing some experimenting, testing sets out, and i’ve come across stuff that does not work (guts tinkaton), stuff that is situational (flare boost hoopa), and stuff that is very very good, namely sheer force volcarona.

sol invictus (Volcarona) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Fire Blast
- Quiver Dance
- Psychic

fire blast, psychic, and even bug buzz hit like trucks after one qd, plus this moveset has perfect coverage (and hits 45.8% of mons for se damage!). i’ve been running boots just in case, but life orb could work equally well. have fun!

 

[Osake]

been doing some experimenting, testing sets out, and i’ve come across stuff that does not work (guts tinkaton), stuff that is situational (flare boost hoopa), and stuff that is very very good, namely sheer force volcarona.

sol invictus (Volcarona) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Fire Blast
- Quiver Dance
- Psychic

fire blast, psychic, and even bug buzz hit like trucks after one qd, plus this moveset has perfect coverage (and hits 45.8% of mons for se damage!). i’ve been running boots just in case, but life orb could work equally well. have fun!

252 SpA Sheer Force Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 398-468 (98.5 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Beads of Ruin Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

this set is just outclassed by MGLO or BoR Boots fwiw, different w/ LO though but then you need strong removal which is hard rn
i do agree that offensive volcarona is a forgotten threat though, def has potential esp with tink WBB being almost unusable rn

since i'm there i will also share the set I used in OMPL which is not good but eh if we're looking for funny stuff there we are

A ma tombe (Sandaconda) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Glare
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

basically a zama check that also happened to be a gdos check, it's mostly outclassed usually (only thing it has being Glare) and Lando-T is prob a better option for the exact same role in general, but at least you're a cool kid if you use this..

 

[Isaiah]

Survey results

Thanks to everyone who participated! We collected 68 responses this time around :D

On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?

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On average, metagame enjoyment is 6.84. 53/68 respondents rated the metagame at least a 6/10.

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find the current metagame?

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On average, metagame competitiveness is 6.54. 50/68 respondents rated the metagame at least a 6/10.

For the following, 1 = Very healthy, 3 = Potentially unhealthy, and 5 = Very unhealthy

Even though it's already banned, I'll include the Enamorus ratings just so people can look at them:

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On average, Ursaluna had a rating of 3.47. This is right around the range of "potentially unhealthy". Considering that the last council vote was 3-3, it's safe to say there is decent support for either side. That being said, 34/68 respondents rated Ursaluna at least a 4 or 5, which means despite the overall rating, over half of you guys consider it to be pretty unhealthy. There will be a suspect test thread going up today just to get a community consensus.

On average, Triage had a rating of 3.71. If you missed it, the most recent council vote was unanimously do not ban. While it's unlikely that Triage will get action over individual users in the current metagame (unless special attacking Triage users also become problematic), it's still interesting to note that 41/68 respondents rated Triage a 4/5.

Is there anything you feel should be retested back into the tier?
- Great Tusk (10/68)
- 2 Ability Clause (8/68)
- Gholdengo (9/68)
- Kyogre?! Come on now
- Neutralizing Gas -> No.
- Sneasler -> This was a very recent quickban and was partially for uncompetitiveness, so it's unlikely to get another shot.

Is there anything else not mentioned here that you would like the Council to look at and/or take action against?
- Chien-Pao (4/68)
- Fluffy (2/68)

tl;dr Some support for things, but nothing significant enough to take immediate action on right now.

Council updates
UT has stepped down from the council :C thanks for everything! (He did say he still fully intends to help with resources and stuff though hehe)
DeepFriedMagikarp is taking a break from council duties (i.e. tiering stuff) due to irl circumstances. Hopefully we'll see him back again in a couple of months!
Ivar57 and Tranquility are now on the council! Make sure to congratulate them :]

Sample teams
- ChainChomp Balance team by ghostlike
- Team featuring Fluffy Lando and MGLO Talonflame by Giagantic
- Team featuring Fluffy Polteageist and Choice Scarf SoR Slither Wing by Giagantic
- Screens HO by Isaiah

Added some teams :P Feel free to submit more if you have them

 

[Grim_Blazer]

Mannnnnnn yall picked some samples before I finished my post, I guess I still have to post it though since I already talked it up in the discord. I have a very nice team this sample season that got my alt to top 20 twice (I dont have the screenshot this time but trust me I got to 1600 with this team, I just had to test other things on that alt and lost my rating before deciding this team was sample material) and almost won me my last round in the AAA seasonal if it wasn't for an unlucky crit with hatterene on my roaring moon. This whole team is full of heat so y'all better be prepared for this.



The idea for this team was to make a good HO team that didnt need to run the token sacrificial screener and either give up a mon or momentum early on. I made a great team last gen around this principle and it was one of my favorite teams I made in all of gen 8.

The gapdos set isn't as heat as it was last gen since everyone has been using it recently on ladder but agility + bulk up isn't often used outside of screens since nobody is as bold as I am apparently but it has been putting in some crazy work. At first it may seem like gap wont get a ton of setup opportunities but trust me when I say that it has setup at least 1 bu and 1 agility in a huge amount of games during my climbs to the top.

Fluffy moon is no longer a heat set apparently because it has its own entry in the showdown calculator but it's still super good and was heat for a long time. This set is a little different though because I don't have taunt on it but instead opted to go for eq to get extra coverage against neutral targets and against stuff like non-earth eater steels. Also weakness policy on moon is broken if you can remove the unaware mon, this set legit only loses to stuff like fluffy idef body press corv.

Apparently I have been labeled clinically insane by the entire AAA discord for running no crunch on chien-pao but trust me this set has been putting in so much work, icicle crash beats stuff that runs fluffy, sacred sword beats steels like hoodra and gambit, and psychic fangs beats the dreaded quaquavel (the fakest chien-pao check in the world for this reason). Trust me this set works wonders.

This is probably the least heat set on the entire team, it pretty much just does big damage, with 1 sd it gets to muscle through a ton of its checks like fluffy corv and does big damage to everything in front of it.

I needed some really good priority to round out the team and after trying quite a few options I landed on enamorus-therian since its bulkier than hatterene and doesnt have all the weaknesses that comes with diancie's rock type.

 

[April]

Remember the days when Fluffy RM was a heat set...

OMFL Week 1 is done, and I've done well with it in friendlies/ladder, so here's a team showcase / sample submission. This team's win plan is pretty simple: Break down the core defensive pieces with Lucario, Zapdos and Moon, and Get Enamorus-T or Roaring Moon in a position where they can clean up. Intim Corviknight and Regen Vest Meloetta form a potent defensive core while also serving to pivot in your

click the pokemon for the team!

I don't think I have to explain what Corviknight does. Intimidate stops most of the physical attackers in their tracks, Brave Bird chunks things on the switch so you can use U-Turn to get in your more threatening mons, and Defog keeps the field clear of Stealth Rocks for Enamorus-T.

MGLO Lucario is still good! Aura Sphere > Focus Blast because screw you, I like hitting my opponent. Close Combat puts immense pressure on the most common RegenVesters, 2hkoing most of them. Steel Beam, especially at +2, scares out almost anything else. Big Damage with the potential to tear the entire midgame apart.

Turns out, 100% accurate Thunder and Hurricane are really good! Zapdos is also a natural check to the powerful flying type offensive threats common in the tier-- Talonflame in particular hates to see this. It's hardly a permanent answer to its Galarian Counterpart, but it can switch in against non-banded sets and deal big damage. U-Turn again allows you to pivot into other threatening options. This is your main way to defeat most Corviknights in the midgame.

Has great natural synergy with Corviknight and Zapdos, sponging the special hits that they can't take as well. Low Kick puts pressure on opposing Goodra-Hisui and other Steels. Thunderbolt means Corv doesn't sit in front of you for days. I firmly believe this is the best Regenvester we have, with U-Turn being an amazing momentum tool for a mon that could otherwise be a momentum drain.

This is your primary win condition. Some prefer SFLO on it, but I'm quite the fan of Triage Enam-T. Priority is really nice on a team like this, and Enam's naturally good bulk means you're free to dump as much into offense as you want. This is EVed to creep 0- Hoodra and chunk it hard with Earth Power, but you can easily go full SpAtk or 36 Spe to creep base 50 mons. Draining Kiss + Earth Power hit most of the tier, and Mystical Fire hits the Corviknight that it doesn't.

Fluffy Moon fits on this team as all of a defensive piece, a wallbreaker, and a win condition. Fluffy + naturally good bulk give you great defensive utility and also let you set up much easier. Dual Stab is great coverage, only missing out on Fairies, but you can run Iron Head or EQ over Dragon Claw. Fire Fang is your only real way of dealing with Corviknight, if you haven't gotten rid of it with Zapdos.

The best part of this team is how it's relatively customizable: If different meta threats rise up, you can slot in different moves or EVs without losing the core ideas of the team. Meloetta has different moves it can run, and either of your wincons can be swapped for other threats if you desire.

short Threat List

Lucario and Enam-T put a lot of pressure on Ursaluna, but if Ursa gets a BDrum up it might be lights out. Solid play is enough, most of the time, especially since Ursaluna sets lacking Heavy Slam / Gunk Shot can't hit Enam-H for good damage. Still, though, Ursaluna (and to a lesser extent, TriageDrum Chesnaught) put a lot of pressure on you from the start of a match.

Gapdos' counterpart from Kanto is a relatively fake answer, especially against Band or BU sets. Enam-T will not OHKO at +0, but it will revenge with the slightest chip. Be very careful to preserve your Zapdos if you see a Gapdos on preview.

If you lose Corv early, you will likely lose several other team members to this. If it's running Dazzling, then Enam-T will have to pray for an Icicle Crash miss to OHKO with Mystical Fire.

Edited for clarification

 

[Grim_Blazer]

Yes they do, this is just noting that the few that don't, like you will occasionally see on ladder will lose to Enam-T

(Edited for grammar)

I thought you were saying that luna doesnt get those attacks lol I deleted my post right as you replied to it XD

 

[tr4umpchoos]

Hello, I have a question as an outsider regarding the AAA metagame and Ursaluna (specifically Triage Ursaluna).
Why is the ability Triage not banned? I don't play the meta, but half of the time I see something regarding a QB or Suspect Test for AAA and read the reasoning behind it, the mon in question is able to abuse Triage very effectively. Maybe it just so happens that I only stumble across the tiering action related to Triage and not when y'all Suspect other stuff, but I still want to know the reason for that decision.
Again, this is not a call for action because I do not play AAA, it's a genuine question that I've had for quite some time but do not know where to ask it and I would like to know the reasoning. Thank you.

 

[Isaiah]

Hello, I have a question as an outsider regarding the AAA metagame and Ursaluna (specifically Triage Ursaluna).
Why is the ability Triage not banned? I don't play the meta, but half of the time I see something regarding a QB or Suspect Test for AAA and read the reasoning behind it, the mon in question is able to abuse Triage very effectively. Maybe it just so happens that I only stumble across the tiering action related to Triage and not when y'all Suspect other stuff, but I still want to know the reason for that decision.
Again, this is not a call for action because I do not play AAA, it's a genuine question that I've had for quite some time but do not know where to ask it and I would like to know the reasoning. Thank you.

To justify a Triage ban, the pro-ban side would need to sufficiently defend how too many individual users are problematic primarily (or solely) because of Triage. In reality, very few things are banworthy for this reason. A few relevant examples are Pokemon Like Enamorus, Flutter Mane, and Magearna, which could use Triage, but are ultimately broken for several other reasons (i.e. Enamorus running SFLO/Tinted, Flutter Mane running SFLO, Magearna running every ability in the game).

Looking at more recent bans, whether or not Iron Hands would be unbanned if it couldn't use Triage is debatable at best and would require a suspect test, as there's sufficient reason to believe that Iron Hands with access to almost any ability is still broken. When you break it down like that, you end up with a list of very few Pokemon (I would argue that right now it's just Hariyama) that were overall deemed too powerful because of Triage. Other Triage users like Hatterene and Enamorus-Therian haven't really proven themselves to be an issue, which makes it hard to argue that the ability alone is the problem.

Honestly, it makes sense when you think about it: More often than not, it's going to be a combination of of things (Stat distribution, movepool, viable abilities, viable items, typing, metagame trends) that determine if a Pokemon is banworthy a not, so it's only natural that there's a tendency to examine potentially unhealthy Pokemon as a whole rather than attempting to take action on a single element of their kit.

 

[tr4umpchoos]

To justify a Triage ban, the pro-ban side would need to sufficiently defend how too many individual users are problematic primarily (or solely) because of Triage. In reality, very few things are banworthy for this reason. A few relevant examples are Pokemon Like Enamorus, Flutter Mane, and Magearna, which could use Triage, but are ultimately broken for several other reasons (i.e. Enamorus running SFLO/Tinted, Flutter Mane running SFLO, Magearna running every ability in the game).

Looking at more recent bans, whether or not Iron Hands would be unbanned if it couldn't use Triage is debatable at best and would require a suspect test, as there's sufficient reason to believe that Iron Hands with access to almost any ability is still broken. When you break it down like that, you end up with a list of very few Pokemon (I would argue that right now it's just Hariyama) that were overall deemed too powerful because of Triage. Other Triage users like Hatterene and Enamorus-Therian haven't really proven themselves to be an issue, which makes it hard to argue that the ability alone is the problem.

Honestly, it makes sense when you think about it: More often than not, it's going to be a combination of of things (Stat distribution, movepool, viable abilities, viable items, typing, metagame trends) that determine if a Pokemon is banworthy a not, so it's only natural that there's a tendency to examine potentially unhealthy Pokemon as a whole rather than attempting to take action on a single element of their kit.

Makes total sense, thank you, I was just trying to find closure for the fact I can't use Iron Hands, cuz I really wanted to use Galvanize Body Slam with it lol :')

 

[cjw405]

This is the team I used to do my suspect run. It uses thundurus-t to ohko goodra-h with a +2 focus blast so that volcanion can roam free. Of course you still need to hit the focus blast which may need a bit of luck. This team definitely folds to arcanine-h, but I was fortunate not to see any during my run. Be careful not to sack your breakers too early or you might end up unable to break the opposing team. Also your ideal way of swapping into goodra is to swap to your own goodra and force it out.

Edit: I realized cresselia kinda just sat there doing nothing the whole time, so I decided to replace it with wbb palossand. Palossand solves the whole issue of folding to arcanine-h and also gives me some way to check talonflame (although very risky). I also added some bulk and lessened the speed on slither wing so it can live an ursaluna drain punch at full health and barely outspeed 0 speed landorus-t. Maybe it's sample worthy now?

Heres the new paste:



Edit: Probably final change but I decided to change volcanion to choice scarf so it matches up against faster stuff better. Thundurus still breaks stuff for it and volcanion likely cleans easier with it.

 

[Time2Bonk]

So I was recently looking at the updated viability rankings, and saw a mon that I felt was disgustingly underrated, and that was Volcanion.

This fella feels criminal to use if you manage to get it in safely, and 99% of the times requires the opponent to sack something since Rain-boosted Steam Eruption OHKOs or 2HKOs the entire metagame. Here are some calcs to show that "common RegenVesters" can't switch in on it easily:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola in Heavy Rain: 213-252 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Meloetta in Heavy Rain: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Garchomp in Heavy Rain: 237-280 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scream Tail in Heavy Rain: 394-465 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

These are just some calcs that show how truly terrifying it can be to switch into this mon, and I believe there are only 2 counter to it: First one being RegenVest Hoodra. Arguably, it's a pretty good wall to it, but if you manage to either knock off AV or chip it down with teammates, not even Hoodra is safe. Secondly are mons with Water Absorb/Storm Drain, but these are very uncommon on all levels of play.
Some might argue that Desolate Land users counter his since they can safely switch in on Steam Eruption, but uh oh, Earth Power blows them all up, and now it becomes a predicting game, with Volcanion winning as long as you have fire resists on your team that can salefy switch in on Iron Moth/Ceruledge/Cinderace.

This is the sample team i used for Suspect: (After careful consideration, I have removed the title of "most boring team of all time" but it's still a very bland team)

With that said, I would with no doubt call this the strongest special wallbreaker in the game, and if anyone wants to argue otherwise i'd be open for discussion.
(Sorry if the post is messy I'm not used to writing long posts like this)

 

[Isaiah]

AAA analyses can now be reserved for writing! Make sure to check out the reservation thread for information on how to participate in this if you're interested. Also, there's a spreadsheet showing exactly which Pokemon/sets are available to reserve :]]]


Edit: If you see a set that looks off in the Smogdex and have a badge, feel free to submit a change using the "Edit Strategy" button! If you don't have a badge and find errors, post about them in the analysis discussion thread!

 

[LordBox]

So I was recently looking at the updated viability rankings, and saw a mon that I felt was disgustingly underrated, and that was Volcanion.

View attachment 528044
This fella feels criminal to use if you manage to get it in safely, and 99% of the times requires the opponent to sack something since Rain-boosted Steam Eruption OHKOs or 2HKOs the entire metagame. Here are some calcs to show that "common RegenVesters" can't switch in on it easily:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola in Heavy Rain: 213-252 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Meloetta in Heavy Rain: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Garchomp in Heavy Rain: 237-280 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scream Tail in Heavy Rain: 394-465 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

These are just some calcs that show how truly terrifying it can be to switch into this mon, and I believe there are only 2 counter to it: First one being RegenVest Hoodra. Arguably, it's a pretty good wall to it, but if you manage to either knock off AV or chip it down with teammates, not even Hoodra is safe. Secondly are mons with Water Absorb/Storm Drain, but these are very uncommon on all levels of play.
Some might argue that Desolate Land users counter his since they can safely switch in on Steam Eruption, but uh oh, Earth Power blows them all up, and now it becomes a predicting game, with Volcanion winning as long as you have fire resists on your team that can salefy switch in on Iron Moth/Ceruledge/Cinderace.

This is the sample team i used for Suspect: (After careful consideration, I have removed the title of "most boring team of all time" but it's still a very bland team)

With that said, I would with no doubt call this the strongest special wallbreaker in the game, and if anyone wants to argue otherwise i'd be open for discussion.
(Sorry if the post is messy I'm not used to writing long posts like this)

Some small notes on why Volcanion got the placement it did (B+), at least in my view. Volcanion is undoubtedly a very strong special wallbreaker, given its raw power can 2HKO most special walls however there's a few reasons it wasn't ranked much higher. It is firstly a very linear mon with not that much use outside of just being a very big wallbreaker, although you could perhaps use it as an emergency Desoland check. Other mons higher up generally have more utility and flexible usage. Example, Quaquaval has defensive sets (+ Spin/U-turn even on some offensive sets), similarly Kingambit has many immunity sets that can provide defensive patchwork. Slither Wing does have defensive sets but doesn't matter as much, mainly it has U-turn to help support other teammates and First Impression for offensive threats. Meowscarada has U-turn again and also much better natural speed + Knock/Trick utility. Talking about this, Volcanion really suffers from 2 things:

1. Its low speed means it can naturally be outpaced and revenge killed by many offensive threats, even if its bulk isn't too bad. (EG Gapdos, Zapdos, Arc-H, Hydreigon, etc*)
2. Its Stealth Rocks weakness requires extra support to get onto the field and limits the safe opportunities it gets to break.

In general, Volcanion while a very powerful breaker can still be outplayed and outoffensed with its low speed and rocks weakness. It even has competition, Inteleon has 5 less base SpA and can essentially do the same thing PrimSea Specs Volc does. It does have worse coverage but still threatens most DesoLand mons and has much better speed + pivot. It's not entirely unwallable, GoodraH completely walls the PrimSea variant (even without Vest it can still scout somewhat comfortably as clicking Specs EP/FBlast doesn't kill and clicking that instead of a water move sucks ass) and other RegenVest mons can still scout the choice-lock a few times before going into a DesoLand mon (and you don't have that many opportunities to predict given your rocks weakness + speed). You need great support to pull it off, which is fine, particularly when you have a great MU where they don't have a switch-in which can happen (see, Ivar vs Osake) but means it is limited and contends with other nukes. See also other mons for precedent for its ranking, Hydreigon is similarly a very nuclear special threat but limited similarly and is B (and the other PrimSea nukes), although I could argue B+ for them as well. Volc I'd say has more of an edge because of its mixed MGLO sets which mitigates it rocks weakness and allows it to break Goodra-H (but also adds new walls) but right now I'm only talking about the brought up PrimSea version.

 

[Time2Bonk]

1. Its low speed means it can naturally be outpaced and revenge killed by many offensive threats, even if its bulk isn't too bad. (EG Gapdos, Zapdos, Arc-H, Hydreigon, etc*)

I mean this is true, but if you have a team that's built around Volcanion and mons that can soft-check most revengekillers I still feel like Volcanion makes huge progress even if your walls get chipped down, but it still comes down to how good your opponent are at predicting things, and many people get overwhelmed easily when their RegenVester takes 60% from one hit.

2. Its Stealth Rocks weakness requires extra support to get onto the field and limits the safe opportunities it gets to break.

Yeah, I overlooked this one a bit, but that's mostly because I often managed to kill the opponents DesoLand user early, meaning that I didn't have to predict as much and had often freeway to spam Steam Eruption, but if you have enough support from teammates (Corviknight :/) who can both clear and slow pivot into it you can still make it work, but hazards are absolutely something you have to play around.

I don't think either that Volcanion is an intended wincon, it's just that it chips annoying RegenVesters enough for lategame cleaners such as Iron Moth to just breeze through the rest because the opponent had to make 54 predicts and sack 3 mons just to kill Volcanion.
At the end of the day, I made the post just because I won way too many games against people who were way better than me with Volcanion where the opponent just had no switch-ins, but yeah maybe it is just a B+ mon, but I still feel that it's a bit underrated.

 

[ghostlike]

1. Its low speed means it can naturally be outpaced and revenge killed by many offensive threats, even if its bulk isn't too bad. (EG Gapdos, Zapdos, Arc-H, Hydreigon, etc*)

Yes but revenge killing wall breakers have never been the problem. Even then you still need a very strong attacker to kill it :Garchomp EQ doesn't even OHKO, Gapdos has to be banded to kill, Chien and Slither(Tinted) can't kill it even with CB, etc. If you don't have a Deso mon on your team, you have to have Hoodra to safely counter it. With the brun, other RegenVesters can't take it on. Even with Deso, you are not safe. Weather Ball does way too much to the RegenVester and can 2HKO with some chip. It is kind of like Gapdos but slower but also harder to revenge.

 

[LordBox]

Yes but revenge killing wall breakers have never been the problem. Even then you still need a very strong attacker to kill it :Garchomp EQ doesn't even OHKO, Gapdos has to be banded to kill, Chien and Slither(Tinted) can't kill it even with CB, etc. If you don't have a Deso mon on your team, you have to have Hoodra to safely counter it. With the brun, other RegenVesters can't take it on. Even with Deso, you are not safe. Weather Ball does way too much to the RegenVester and can 2HKO with some chip. It is kind of like Gapdos but slower but also harder to revenge.

My point was Volcanion's speed limits it more, particularly compared to other mons higher up on the VR (which I was justifying its placement mainly, I was never calling it bad, its quite good in fact). Inteleon, which functions similarly, has none of the aforementioned issues letting in Gapdos, Arc-H, Hydreigon after it revenge kills, which are scary pokemon to be letting in, or even using them as fodder to go in and break like other breakers like Chien-Pao. Gapdos as an example also does not suffer from letting Arc-H/Gapdos/Hydregion free to run rampant (given Jolly is run on MGLO), has pivot, is not weak to rocks (although is prone to chip and recoil still if CB) and has extra versatility in setup options see BU + Agility sets or even Taunt and has arguably less common defensive cplay compared to Goodra-H being a very common wall for it (and DesoLand mons + RegenVest that can shuffle around). (Also personally I hate Corviknight as ""reliable"" hazard removal given how exploitable it is for good players but... maybe I'm just bad)

 

[ghostlike]

My point was Volcanion's speed limits it more, particularly compared to other mons higher up on the VR (which I was justifying its placement mainly, I was never calling it bad, its quite good in fact). Inteleon, which functions similarly, has none of the aforementioned issues letting in Gapdos, Arc-H, Hydreigon after it revenge kills, which are scary pokemon to be letting in, or even using them as fodder to go in and break like other breakers like Chien-Pao. Gapdos as an example also does not suffer from letting Arc-H/Gapdos/Hydregion free to run rampant (given Jolly is run on MGLO), has pivot, is not weak to rocks (although is prone to chip and recoil still if CB) and has extra versatility in setup options see BU + Agility sets or even Taunt and has arguably less common defensive cplay compared to Goodra-H being a very common wall for it (and DesoLand mons + RegenVest that can shuffle around). (Also personally I hate Corviknight as ""reliable"" hazard removal given how exploitable it is for good players but... maybe I'm just bad)

I can understand your point. Maybe I'm bias because I lost twice to a trapping set (Volt Absorb + fire spin to trap Hoodra btw). I don't mind Volcanion being in B+ (although I think it should be A-). You said that it can be revenge kill by many offensive threat and compared it to mons like Inteleon and Gapdos. You listed Volc's counters and said that Inteleon and Gapdos have no trouble with them and I think that is a bit unfair. I think that these three mons all have different counters and ,imo, Volcanion might be harder to revenge kill. Inteleon can be revenge by priorities (Slither or Kingambit), DesoLand mons or faster mons (Meow or Chien). Volc isn't affraid of any of them. I won't say anything about Gapdos because I believe that mon is broken and should be banned.

 

[LordBox]

I can understand your point. Maybe I'm bias because I lost twice to a trapping set (Volt Absorb + fire spin to trap Hoodra btw). I don't mind Volcanion being in B+ (although I think it should be A-). You said that it can be revenge kill by many offensive threat and compared it to mons like Inteleon and Gapdos. You listed Volc's counters and said that Inteleon and Gapdos have no trouble with them and I think that is a bit unfair. I think that these three mons all have different counters and ,imo, Volcanion might be harder to revenge kill. Inteleon can be revenge by priorities (Slither or Kingambit), DesoLand mons or faster mons (Meow or Chien). Volc isn't affraid of any of them. I won't say anything about Gapdos because I believe that mons is broken and should be banned.

It's still enough to be a limitation, not that I'm saying it's strictly worse than Inteleon... in fact it's higher on the VR than it! Particularly when the mons you're letting in are very scary, I won a game where I only had Alolan-Muk + DesoLand Ceru against a PrimSea Volc because my Gapdos could exploit it whenever it killed something or when Gapdos was pivoted into it (and Meowscarada still revenges Volc consistently with slight amount of chip + Slither can click CC into Modest variant who like the power for RegenVest and similarly dies to a lot of offensive threats like Chien Pao after single Rocks) and forcing the mons to click the Priority button is much easier to deal with than a Close Combat/Brave Bird from Banded SoR Gapdos or a Head Smash from LO Hisuian Arcanine (and limits the amount of times you can get in Volc to break safely, particularly against fast high fueled offensive teams which can sometimes just leave Volcanion a bit useless, whereas like I said before Inteleon can fairly safely exploit some of the slower mons Volc can't outspeed).