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Metagame Alphabet Cup
- Thread starter Eli
- Start date
pop bomb persian is honestly pretty mid. i've used it on a couple teams but it's just eh. it's slightly faster than maushold, but worse in every other way. it also doesn't get tidy up, which is part of what gives maushold its niche
That's fair, but fake out and mach punch give it some useful tools that Maushold doesn't get to help deal with faster threats. I would say Persian's pretty underwhelming overall, but I think it's a bit better than Maushold in this format.
Time for some more bans!
Chien-Pao, Espathra, and Landorus-I are now BANNED! All of these Pokemon have not only retained the same qualities that got them banned from OU in this meta, but they have also gained access to even more moves that further improve their offensive power (such as Chien-Pao's Ceaseless Edge, Espathra's Fiery Dance, and Landorus's Lava Plume).
Kris you GOTTA see this
Chien-Pao, Espathra, and Landorus-I are now BANNED! All of these Pokemon have not only retained the same qualities that got them banned from OU in this meta, but they have also gained access to even more moves that further improve their offensive power (such as Chien-Pao's Ceaseless Edge, Espathra's Fiery Dance, and Landorus's Lava Plume).
Kris you GOTTA see this
I thought Heart Swap wasn't in the game? Is there some sort of bug here or am I losing it?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-1884278761
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-1884278761
I think heart swap like v create is just secretly in the game for no reason at all.
Meowscarada @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Flower Trick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
dracovish 2.0
Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Behemoth Blade
- Flip Turn
- Ice Spinner
nvm found a better fishious rend user
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Flower Trick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
dracovish 2.0
Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Behemoth Blade
- Flip Turn
- Ice Spinner
nvm found a better fishious rend user
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Fishious rend does not exist in the game and is therefore unusable
Just so this isn’t a one liner:
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
DNite is still pretty cracked, against a weakened team or a team without a steel, this set can sweep pretty easily with Tera flying dragon ascent after a dragon dance, which is pretty easy to get off thanks to multiscale. This set in particular appreciates magnezone support but dnite can still do work without magnezone. Espeed is nice for stuff like eleki and roost makes it easier for dnite to setup multiple dragon dances.
also a cool set i found was pop bomb hilligant
went against a guy that was using it and got destroyed
and hilligant also gets power whip now
also is chi-yu banned or nah
went against a guy that was using it and got destroyed
and hilligant also gets power whip now
also is chi-yu banned or nah
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Chi yu is not banned which is really fun.
Apparently Rage Fist is allowed? Just got blown up by an Ape with it lmao
It’s restricted, restricted moves can be used on native mons (like rage fist on ape).
Enamorus @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed
- Play Rough / Earthquake
I’ve played with this a little bit in alphabet cup, and I feel it is very broken. I would consider giving it a suspect test, as it has allowed me to cheese my way out of countless battles my opponent should have won. Here are a few examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-1884735303
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-1884962002
To be honest, the bigger problem really feels like ESpeed to me, since Eiscue is also insanely strong with it. Any way to get easy attack boosts then automatically outspeed effectively every single other pokemon besides ghost types is really rough to deal with.
Enamorus @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed
- Play Rough / Earthquake
I’ve played with this a little bit in alphabet cup, and I feel it is very broken. I would consider giving it a suspect test, as it has allowed me to cheese my way out of countless battles my opponent should have won. Here are a few examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-1884735303
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9alphabetcup-1884962002
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Tbh I don’t think e speed is the problem there’s simply not enough abusers for it to be banned. (Oms typically seek tiering action on abusers rather then a piece of their gimmick.)
I suppose that's fair, but I would argue that alphabet cup has an extra lever at its disposal with the ability to limit moves to only be available to the pokemon that naturally get the move. Otherwise, why would belly drum, shift gear, and so on be allowed for the mons that get them by default instead of being banned entirely?
Let's talk about it.
While I won't mention it every time, all of them have the ability to tera normal in order to boost the power of espeed.
I've talked about this mon before, but it's busted, and there's only one reason why: belly drum Extreme speed. With extreme speed, it doesn't need to rely on opponents breaking ice face to become a terrifying effective sweeper. Normal resists are normally physically offensive types (Steel/rock), so either break ice face, allowing Eiscue to get a free hit, or if ice face is broken, normally get outsped. This wouldn't be a problem if your special attacker could just come in and kill it, but with extreme speed, there's a very good chance it won't survive unless it's a special attacker like Dragapult.
The pokémon who started this discussion, and whose niche also almost entirely comes from extremespeed (While I think it would be good otherwise, at the moment, there's only one set and it's Extreme Speed). Superpower buffing it is incredible, and Enamorus' great speed tier and defensive typing help too, but espeed is the crux of the problem, once again very frequently requiring a fast ghost type to beat. This is exacerbated by superpower smacking most non-ghost normal resists hard, but without espeed, a lot of faster pokémon could deal with this a lot more effectively.
Armed with a toxic orb, Flareon's attack hits staggering levels. Normally, this isn't a problem, because it's slow and recoil heavy - but with extreme speed, that all changes. While Flareon doesn't have the means to break through resists as easily as other extreme speed users, due to its poor speed, it can pick off a weakened team with no setup, and boasts the strongest Extreme Speed in the tier. It can also pull double duty as an insanely powerful wallbreaker, especially with support from trick room and the coverage offered by earthquake.
This pokémon has an attack stat of 65 and a special attack stat of 110, but there's only one set I've ever seen it use, and it's very scary at that: Swords dance extreme speed. Sylveon trades a higher attack stat for an absolutely incredible offensive typing boosted by swords dance, normally then boosted further by pixie plate or life orb. This is a pokémon whose niche is entirely defined by Extreme Speed, and unlike the other users, it can't be blocked by a ghost type. Earthquake provides the ability to hit hard most pokémon who resist extreme speed, but realistically, they should have already been removed or heavily weakened before this comes out, unless it's being used to revenge kill. Not the craziest user, but offence teams can have trouble with it.
While Eelektross could potentially utilise extreme speed in an effective way alongside bulk up, it's heavily outclassed by all of the above pokémon. It gains no other useful tools from the format, and lacks a good STAB option. Could see use with bulk up and drain punch, but Enamorus does the same thing while being faster, having a better set of resistances, and dealing heavy damage while doing so. As of right now, I've never seen it used.
Leafeon is not a good pokémon, even with extreme speed under its belt. It gains very little useful coverage from the format, and as an swords dance sweeper, is somehow outclassed by Sylveon. I'm including it here because it has a high enough attack stat to technically make use of extreme speed.
As a whole, Extreme Speed might be worth restricting. Eiscue and Enamorus are the most blatant offenders, but Flareon and Sylveon both gain very strong niches where they'd normally have virtually none purely on the power of extreme speed.
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I love alphabet cup but this is honestly the least balanced initial iteration of it I've played so far, I have a very long list of stuff I think is broken or unhealthy, and spoilers most of it is stuff that is banned from OU and honestly shouldn't have been allowed in the first place lmao
It doesn't even gain anything in this meta and it's still impossible to switch in on, especially in sun
The general presence of strong spdef pivots like AV amoonguss and muk-alola make regieleki feel more manageable, but it's still strong and able to abuse tera to the fullest extent. Prevalence of Spikes lets the Regieleki user chip down these spdef pivots effectively. Rising Voltage merits a mention too as that set overwhelms every non-ground with sheer power
Shed tail into something like dragonite or kingambit is still obnoxious
Dragonite is already a powerful sweeper but dragon ascent pushes it far above in terms of initial power and lets it actually beat down dondozo really effectively. It already dominates offense with multiscale and extreme speed but dragon ascent gives it the power to break everything it needs to and leads to it feeling unhealthy to me
It has even more power than normal and can debilitate foes early game with knock off. It feels broken for much of the same reasons it felt broken in pre-home OU, the ability to flip matchups with tera while setting up and being so strong late game is overbearing. But it also has more tricks, like bullet punch, tera fire bitter blade, and some other surprising coverage that gives it more set variety too.
(single) No switch ins and SD has almost no defensive counter play at all
This is still here too? Even in a meta with more options for special tanks Iron Bundle is still basically a speed king that 2HKOs everything with the appropriate move
Annihilape is such an overwhelming wincon for the same reasons it was banned from OU. It can punish counterplay with Tera, covert cloak, Aqua Step or Mach Punch, and it even has set variety in being able to run a usable CB set.
This conversation about extreme speed is missing the plot so hard when there is so much other broken stuff. The standards for what's broken in an OM is not based on what people use the most. Personally I think Eiscue and Enamorus are both fine for now, both strong mons but somewhat matchup dependent and can't handle Unaware mons
It doesn't even gain anything in this meta and it's still impossible to switch in on, especially in sun The general presence of strong spdef pivots like AV amoonguss and muk-alola make regieleki feel more manageable, but it's still strong and able to abuse tera to the fullest extent. Prevalence of Spikes lets the Regieleki user chip down these spdef pivots effectively. Rising Voltage merits a mention too as that set overwhelms every non-ground with sheer power Shed tail into something like dragonite or kingambit is still obnoxious Dragonite is already a powerful sweeper but dragon ascent pushes it far above in terms of initial power and lets it actually beat down dondozo really effectively. It already dominates offense with multiscale and extreme speed but dragon ascent gives it the power to break everything it needs to and leads to it feeling unhealthy to me It has even more power than normal and can debilitate foes early game with knock off. It feels broken for much of the same reasons it felt broken in pre-home OU, the ability to flip matchups with tera while setting up and being so strong late game is overbearing. But it also has more tricks, like bullet punch, tera fire bitter blade, and some other surprising coverage that gives it more set variety too. (single) No switch ins and SD has almost no defensive counter play at all This is still here too? Even in a meta with more options for special tanks Iron Bundle is still basically a speed king that 2HKOs everything with the appropriate move Annihilape is such an overwhelming wincon for the same reasons it was banned from OU. It can punish counterplay with Tera, covert cloak, Aqua Step or Mach Punch, and it even has set variety in being able to run a usable CB set. This conversation about extreme speed is missing the plot so hard when there is so much other broken stuff. The standards for what's broken in an OM is not based on what people use the most. Personally I think Eiscue and Enamorus are both fine for now, both strong mons but somewhat matchup dependent and can't handle Unaware mons
Yea I did mean restrict instead of banned.
Chien pao just got banned.
I've talked in another post about some of the other broken threats, where I mentioned Regieleki in particular as being overwhelming with access to revelation dance, a far better tera blast, on top of already being broken in its own right, so it's not like I disagree. However, all of the pokémon you mention in your post have something in common, which is an unfavourable matchup to the some of best extreme speeders, Eiscue, Enamorus, and even Sylveon.I love alphabet cup but this is honestly the least balanced initial iteration of it I've played so far, I have a very long list of stuff I think is broken or unhealthy, and spoilers most of it is stuff that is banned from OU and honestly shouldn't have been allowed in the first place lmao
This conversation about extreme speed is missing the plot so hard when there is so much other broken stuff. The standards for what's broken in an OM is not based on what people use the most. Personally I think Eiscue and Enamorus are both fine for now, both strong mons but somewhat matchup dependent and can't handle Unaware mons
Answering them with Unaware mons is putting a heavy restraint on teambuilding, and isn't even always effective: Enamorus can answer Dondozo with grass knot, and Eiscue hits Clodsire and Skeledirge super-effectively with an adamant ice spinner and earthquake, respectively, meaning they need to stay healthy or use up tera to check it. If you're one of many teams without an unaware mon, your options become much more limited - a faster, specially offensive extreme speed resist or immunity tends to be your only option, and resists can be worn down before the extreme speeders come out. While I agree some of the picks on your list are possibly unhealthy, Extreme Speed is the biggest issue I see right now, since it has so little defensive OR offensive counterplay.
Oh really? I keep running into it.
It’s not implemented on the ladder yet bans take time to implement.