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alright so Zygarde and Ttar basically have the same function and face the same threats, so I think changing zyg to defensive is fair. The team is also super weak to ogre, so ferro also makes a lot of sense especially now that nothing really takes advantage of spikes or t-spikes. Also making Zyg defensive really helps with the potential marsh issue if fairy isn't at full health as it could tear through the team. If we make those changes the biggest weakness I think the team would face is that with ferro and goth it has two mons that give free setup to ray, and if Zyg is not in complete form that could pose to be extremely problematic. So while I know goth is suppose to function with mega Ttar I feel like it may be better served to replace it with something like arc rock or even celesteela which gives us more support against offensive dusk mane.
she said change the set :\ and ferrothorn takes on groundceus if we run power whip or gyro(whatever).and team is-zy,goth,ferro,ttar(m?),pdon,fairyceus and if you see zygarde and fairyceus walls up most of physical attackers while ferro and pdon takes on xerneas/fairyceus so its good to have it :l
Dark Swordsman, in the post pichus says that you can even vote to change the pokemon. Soooo. And also, can u clarify th original post? like, most of it is rambling and I cant understand it. Thanks!
DD Zygarde >> Defensive Coil
This would help a lot against offensive pdons as this is the only check for it properly.
Cloyster >> Celesteela
Firsty this would help a lot deal with dusk mane/u necro as with 21pichu's ferro version dusk mane would just destroy the team. This would also help against sd groundceus as that again could be a huge issue if zygarde is weakened at all.
cm fairyceus >> Defensive fairyceus
I feel a defogger could be useful on the team as it's pretty much a certainty cloyster is being replaced, and ttar can deal with cm refresh darkceus/flyceus. Also, Draco m ray could be a problem so the bulk on fairyceus is nice.
Possible sets:
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Evs: 252hp/252Def/4att
Nature: Impish
-Coil
-Thousand arrows
-Rest
-Glare/Toxic/Dragon tail
Also for the defensive Don the best set would probably be:
-Precipice Blades
-Toxic
-Roar
-Rest
Lava plume on pdon isn't as essential as having roar as it is basically the only Xern check on the team.
Just some ideas :)
Edit: Rocks for toxic on pdon, goth can take care of support arcs so toxic isn't too important
DD Zygarde >> Defensive Coil
This would help a lot against offensive pdons as this is the only check for it properly.
Cloyster >> Celesteela
Firsty this would help a lot deal with dusk mane/u necro as with 21pichu's ferro version dusk mane would just destroy the team. This would also help against sd groundceus as that again could be a huge issue if zygarde is weakened at all.
cm fairyceus >> Defensive fairyceus
I feel a defogger could be useful on the team as it's pretty much a certainty cloyster is being replaced, and ttar can deal with cm refresh darkceus/flyceus. Also, Draco m ray could be a problem so the bulk on fairyceus is nice.
Possible sets:
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Evs: 252hp/252Def/4att
Nature: Impish
-Coil
-Thousand arrows
-Rest
-Glare/Toxic/Dragon tail
Also for the defensive Don the best set would probably be:
-Precipice Blades
-Toxic
-Roar
-Rest
Lava plume on pdon isn't as essential as having roar as it is basically the only Xern check on the team.
Just some ideas :)
I like the suggestions but i think keeping CM fairy is important one it makes it so the team does not become too passive with TTAR being the only form of offensive pressure it also ensures that we don't lost to cm arc dark
.you know what could actually be sick, to fix this team? change goth to shuckle and make it webs offense, change the don to a more offensive set like SD or eruption, and boom, we have a webs squadron. it could work tbh, there'd still be a couple things we could optimize, but that should fix a lot of problems with the squad, and we could change ttar to like, hex m-gar, which could work, as to take advantage of tspikes. that's all i can really think of off the top of my head, but it sounds like it could work.
.you know what could actually be sick, to fix this team? change goth to shuckle and make it webs offense, change the don to a more offensive set like SD or eruption, and boom, we have a webs squadron. it could work tbh, there'd still be a couple things we could optimize, but that should fix a lot of problems with the squad, and we could change ttar to like, hex m-gar, which could work, as to take advantage of tspikes. that's all i can really think of off the top of my head, but it sounds like it could work.
I feel we have to keep m ttar + goth as it's a solid core we've chosen to built around, we'd just be changing the entire team otherwise which would be much longer and complicated
I'd say we should try to add in Ferrothorn somewhere because Pogre + Xern can be a huge issue to our team. DDance Zygarde looks kinda random and I think defensive set clearly outclasses DDance (on this team atleast). I can also see SD Dusk Mane being a huge issue, especially if Zygarde isn't in 100% form, so i'll also suggest Defensive Darkceus over CM Fairyceus, or maybe even CM Wisp/Refresh Darkceus. CM Fairy is usually unable to put a lot of offensive pressure on opposing team, so Darkceus makes much more sense as it gives us a Dusk Mane check and provides more offensive pressure as it's pretty much the best CM Arceus form (if we're opting for the CM set). I think Waterceus should also be considered over Fairyceus and Darkceus, to improve our matchup vs Marsh + Pdon. Here's how I think this team should look like :
- DDance Mega Tyranitar
- Gothitelle
- Defensive Rocks Primal Groudon
- Defensive Zygarde (Over DDance Zygarde)
- Ferrothorn (Over Cloyster)
- CM Wisp/CM Refresh/Defensive Darkceus or Defensive Waterceus (Over CM Fairyceus)
Thoughts?
(ps: Lets try to keep the Goth + TTar core.)
Darkceus - This would leave you really weak to marsh as hp ice variants would literally 6-0 the entire team
Waterceus - Yveltal could be an issue as tyran has no real recovery to be a proper switch in, and no other mon resists both its STABs. Taunt variants could be a serious issue to prevent ferro from using seed or waterceus from using recover/toxic.
However, a possible waterceus set still is:
This set would allow it to be fast enough to outspeed life orb sets to toxic/ice beam. Scarf sets ferro can deal with due to its high spdef and yve not being able to taunt.
ps: Webs is a serious issue due to no defogger, and yveltal would just dominate the game.
I completely didnt forget about this.
Anyway, for now I've change ddance zygarde to defensive zygarde (defensive zygarde clearly outclasses since we're trying to do balance / bulky offense) and removed cloyster out of the team (its really irrelevant and gives us a slot for a new pokemon to add in).
Potential changes:
Add in Ferrothorn/Celesteela for cloyster
Add in darkceus/waterceus to improve matchup vs dusk mane necrozma
please discuss x.x
I think darkceus would be a great addition to this team, as it is an effective late game sweeper, and can help win matchups better that the team would otherwise lose to. Darkceus has great synergy with this team!
and as a final member since cloyster's been removed, i think zeo xern could work nicely here, dd ttar can lure marshadow and steels for it and xern can beat pdon 1v1, be an emergency dd mray check and has nice synergy with goth as well:
i think there is only one thing we can do to revive this team... we go back to mega ttar we pair that sucker with sd z ground sand rush excad we sprinkle in some other stuff and we call it a thread
Excuse me of being a bit paranoid about Calm Mind Primal Kyogre, but as I look through, I find it is able to mess with the entire team after Primal Groudon faints or if it manages to switch into Primal Groudon.
0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle in Heavy Rain: 202-238 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy in Heavy Rain: 255-301 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 452-536 (71 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I have a suggestion to add another Primal Kyogre switchin to this team.
Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers / Grassium Z
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Power Whip / Bullet Seed
- Leech Seed
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Protect
This Ferrothorn has the capability of being a well-served Primal Kyogre switchin and counter due to its Grass-typing, tremendous SpD, and the addition of Power Whip. Leftovers is its usual item, but against a Calm Mind Kyogre, it may or may not prefer to switch out. Having enough boosts would encourage it to stay allowing you to push in excess damage with Grassium Z.
Here are more calcs:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 222-264 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Bullet Seed)
0 Atk Ferrothorn Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Power Whip)
+1 252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
While it is highly unlikely for Calm Mind Primal Kyogre to carry both max HP and max Defense, the calculations shown above only carry the purpose to show Ferrothorn's maximum potential.
Outside of dealing with Kyogre and its Primal Reversion, Ferrothorn serves best throwing out hazards. Spikes can be thrown a maximum of three times in order to hit foes that aren't flying. Stealth Rocks can be thrown once but can hit Flying-type Pokemon. Assuming this team carries Stealth Rock Primal Groudon, this Ferrothorn set may be better off running Spikes.
Protect is best to scout out your opponent's next move and helps you predict whether they're going to stay in or switch out. This can certainly help against Calm Mind Primal Kyogre as they might've already used Calm Mind once when you swapped in, which in the end can encourage but never guarantee the Kyogre to say in.
Leech Seed is self explanatory. It's Ferrothorn's main move. It's what it uses to seep the HP off victims and make it its own. Leech Seed can pressurize your opponent's Pokemon (doesn't have to just be Primal Kyogre) to switch out and can manage to bring Ferrothorn back to a fair amount of HP.
Leftovers is preferably best over Grassium Z because Ferrothorn surviving longer in battle can be deemed more important. I suggest picking Grassium Z only if you are going for Bullet Seed as Bullet Seed may not do the most sufficient damage to Kyogre.
0 Atk Ferrothorn Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 132-162 (32.6 - 40%) -- approx. 99.9% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 176-216 (43.5 - 53.4%) -- approx. 11.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 220-270 (54.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are calculations against the normal Calm Mind Primal Kyogre set. You may argue that it needs more Attack but Special Defense is vital especially if it wants to go against Calm Mind.
+1 32 SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I typed down a lot here but I only hope this validates my points.
With that being said, I recognize we don't have a Defog user on this team. However, I don't feel we need it. Currently 4 out of 5 of the Pokemon that are in this team right now have at least one great source of recovery. The other is a setup sweeper that I feel shouldn't need to switch in as often in battle. Aside from this, nobody on the team is weak to Stealth Rock either, and one of the Pokemon even resists it. We can make that two just by adding in this Ferrothorn, and Rocks wouldn't very much be a problem. Webs isn't as common but it looks as if it'd be a bigger problem, especially with max speed Fairyceus and Tyranitar. However their stat boosts can bypass the downsides to not having webs in this case. I don't know how well it'd perform even on ladder, but I hope this Ferrothorn surely suits this team better.
Thank you all for reading (even though you technically didn't need to)
This seems like a decent team so far. However, I would like to point out some issues with it:
General Lack of Speed Control: While I realize that Max Speed Fairyceus is on the team, it looks like something like DD Mega Rayquaza would seriously be able to screw with the team, especially if it carries Earthquake as opposed to V-Create, especially as Fairyceus isn't defensive. Sure, you have Roar on PDon and a Zygarde, but preventing Zygarde from transforming isn't impossible and is OHKO'd by +1 Dragon Ascent when it's slightly weakened. I would love to face this team on ladder: I'd just paralyze/remove Fairyceus, switch Lucario in on Ferrothorn, set up SD, and sweep without caring about Leech Seed at all. DD on TTar isn't nearly enough to count as Speed Control as it is still relatively slow after a DD. I recommend priority or fast cleaners or scarf users such as Yveltal on this team.
Being Fairly Helpless against some Matchups: As a continuation of my last point, it seems to me like HO could give this a lot of trouble. It is completely helpless against Sub SD Groundceus when Zygarde is removed, and has to take the 50/50 against CM Groundceus when Gothitelle is removed. If this team wants to become a dedicated balance, I suggest, again, adding some fast cleaners (Marshadow in particular comes to mind here), or even some stall-y mons such as Chansey to beat CM Arceuses (Arceii?)
Anyways, that's just my opinion on the team, I'll probably be completely shut down and roasted anyway :/
I'd like to expand on some of the points Lavaclaw mentioned, plus add some of my own. The fact that fairyceus isn't defensive is a HUGE problem. DD mray just sweeps after some chip damage on zyg, and with no priority users, there's no conventional way to knock it out after said scenario. This is amplified by the fact that there are two rest users, namely pdon. This opens the door for a DD mray to set up. Mray is the most used mon in ag, and building a team thats swept by it does not seem logical in my eyes.
Something that caught my attention was how there are no spore switch ins or smeargle checks. Smeargle is gonna cause huge trouble for this team should it face it (which is very likely). Letting smeargle spore a mon and setting up hazards or smash passing to a mon is almost an auto lose, with zyg often losing to the mentioned smashpass due to chip damage.
This team also is VERY weak to geoxern. Xern has been seeing more usage low ladder, which is quite a problem if one is using a team which almost insta loses to it on high ladder; -30ish elo to the user of this team in many cases. Nonetheless, chipping pdon is relatively easy, and having no priority isnt helping. I bring ladder up because players will most likely be using this thing on ladder. Having no defogger will present huge problems, too, especially with HO being rather effective and the smeargle weakness. Making fairyceus defensive defog would also be a very wise choice.
Anyway, these are my thoughts. Hope they help =)
Btw if i had to choose a last mon, it would be this:
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Toxic
Checks xern (although can be chipped or focus blasted twice in a row with sum unlucky rolls, I think), and hard checks all common groundceus sets. Not losing to sd groundceus is quite likable. Also make fairyceus defensive :^)
here are my thoughts i want to chuck goth it makes the team look extremely gross and i think that it does not really function all that well with the mons on the team i feel like mega Ttar does not really have a speed tier high enough to exploit goth like other setup mons might.
this set allows for Ttar to break through fatter teams preventing leech seed from your common leech seed mons as well as creeping offensive dm and defensive yveltal. while adding taunt loses out on a bit of coverage i think that it is worth it for the most part.
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 80 Atk / 216 SpA / 44 SpD / 168 Spe
Mild Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Eruption
I started to use this set in ubers and it is my new fav don set. it is incredible at breaking fatter teams allowing you to rock tomb things like arc ground/water on the switch or even yveltal and following that up with either an eruption or in the case of arc water sd but because of the speed drop it is unable to stall you out.
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Solganium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 124 SpD / 132 Spe
Careful Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Morning Sun
the team seemed to be quite Xern weak so Dm seemed like the most logical choice i think that sd morning sun dm is very underrated as it is still a huge threat to break through fat teams while still maintaining a great deal of bulk.
whats an ag team without arc fairy arguably the most splashable mon in the metagame this is the set i would prefer I'm not a huge fan of cm on this build style.
Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest
- Dragon Dance
i thought after adding the first 5 mons both dm and cm arcs look scary so i thought this would be a fun build to toss on not to mention it fits the theme of throttling fatter builds and kind of fill the roll that goth did but offering more versatility in my opinion...
now by no means do i think this has to be the 6 mons or sets, i know i strayed a bit from the original 5 mons but i thought this thread was really dead so it might be ok. Please offer thoughts and suggestions.
I think i sort of lost where i was going with the first post
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Solganium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 124 SpD / 132 Spe
Careful Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Morning Sun
this is what i would like to see the last mon be and i think that the spreads of the mons i listed above may be more optimal but that can be discussed later anyway the vote would be for this
