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MZ

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If you don't know why something is ranked, try checking the ubers analysis or asking somebody. Don't nominate it for a full rank drop. This isn't directed at a single person, rather multiple people using ignorance as a reason for drops.
 

Finland

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If you don't know why something is ranked, try checking the ubers analysis or asking somebody. Don't nominate it for a full rank drop. This isn't directed at a single person, rather multiple people using ignorance as a reason for drops.
Checking the Ubers analysis was a good idea. Surprised I didnt think to do that.

Tyranitar C+ -> C- or D+ (revised)
Tyranitar is not viable enough in AG to be C+. One of the main reasons for its viability in Ubers is its ability to counter and pursuit-trap Latias and Latios, and both of these Pokemon are extremely rare in AG and for good reason. Other threats it notably beats, such as Arceus-Dark, are also less common in AG than in Uber.
Its flaws from there also carry over, and are even excaberated. It is setup bait for many common Pokemon including Groudon-Primal, Rayquaza-Mega (who isn't weak to rock and guaranteed OHKOs 252/0 Tyranitar with +1 252 Jolly LO Earthquake), Xerneas (who is hit for 50.1% max by 252+ Stone Edge when it runs 184/28 defensive), often Arceus-N (OHKOs with +2 Earthquake, 2HKOs all 252/XXX Shuca spreads); basically the entirety of the S tier, besides Darkrai (who outspeeds and can beat it anyway with substitute/dark void/nasty plot if luck is on its side).
This doesnt include other common Pokemon that can defeat or even set up on it, including Kyogre-Primal, Arceus-Fairy, Skarmory, Mega Mewtwo X... etc. It's very slow and just doesn't pack enough of an offensive or defensive presence to qualify for C+ at all.
 
Drifblim: C- -> C or C+
Evasion passing is far from my favorite strategy. But it does have some viability, and besides Smeargle (who has better things to do), Drifblim is literally the only Pokemon (besides Drifloon, lol), that can do it. I think this relevant uniqueness affords it a rise or two.


Tyranitar: C+ -> C-/D+
Why is he C+? He's slow and lacking in terribly unique attributes besides Sand, which is kinda cool but lacks Pokemon to abuse it properly and of course is shut down by the Hoenn trio. Kind of hard for me to make a huge case to drop it since I have frankly no idea why he is near as high as he is; if somebody disagrees, i may be able to articulate more.
While I have nothing against the other noms, I want to address these two in particular.

Drifblim has 0 offensive presence, has no check to whirlwind/roar, dies vs almost every taunt user w/o mental herb (and never activates unburden with mental herb unless taunted), has an awful rocks weakness to spam substitute reliably, is way too slow to setup the first minimise reliably and can just die in the first hit, and, is an extremely circumstantial mon which can become setup fodder once it is taunted, and gives the opponent buttloads of momentum.

Why it doesn't fit on teams -
Drifblim is mostly used as a lead, and since stall is so rare in the meta, I am not considering stall leads.

P don leads - Can cripple it with plume, setup rocks and then roar it out.
Supportceus leads - Mostly carry rocks and roar, along with toxic/judgment
Deo A/S - Common taunt users, most sets carry rocks and knock off, too

These are some of the most common leads in AG, and they all cripple Drifblim. Other than this, the rare darkrai lead on the drifblim lead predict would mean you allow your opponent a free sub.

Why Tar is ranked where it is
Pursuit trap is still viable because of how common Mgar is and how almost every stall team in the meta loses to it. While stall teams are rare, they can't function at all vs Mgar and are completely broken by it. Mgar's usage on the ladder has increased quite a lot in the recent few months, and they rarely carry fmiss(carrying fmiss would mean losing out on two of dbond/taunt/protect, which make Gar setup fodder for Mray and have almost 0 chances to win vs it 1v1, and losing to e killers without protect first turn). This makes Ttar a necessary evil in stall teams. While I agree most stall teams don't use it rn, an argument can be made on how they're barely successful when you look at their GXE/ELO, which will only drop further as Mgar becomes more common. Other than Gar, Ttar soft checks Y god, Lugia(with rest/taunt), V-Create Mray (eq is not used on many sets now), Gira, is a rock setter (a sucky one, but one nonetheless), and isn't entirely fragile defensively. Most of its counters can be checked, which is a fair deal as opposed to losing 2-3 mons to Mgar/Y god. It is not even rated too high, it is in the C ranks after considering its flaws in the meta.

If you don't know why something is ranked, try checking the ubers analysis or asking somebody. Don't nominate it for a full rank drop. This isn't directed at a single person, rather multiple people using ignorance as a reason for drops.
I disagree with this entirely. Ubers' analysis are based on what would succeed in Ubers and what is viable in that tier. A fair point was made about Ttar not being as viable in AG because of different types of teams in the meta and Ttar losing vs the most potent threats and the commonly spammed mons, which needed to be discussed. Let's not base AG viability on what succeeded in Ubers, these are two entirely different ballgames.

Edit - Noms like Don to B- from C- and P ogre to B from A are quite big changes, they can't be justified until their viability, or the lack of it, has been established in the near past.
 
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MZ

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No, but if people have literally no idea what something does then it's better for them to check a meta with almost every one of the same threats for a bit of an idea rather than nom them to drop full ranks. Either way "I don't know what this does so let's move it down" was getting on my nerves.
 
Nom -

Lugia A+ = A-

Loses to rocks/status(especially toxic)/taunt far too easily, all of which are common threats. Completely walled by Steel types and bouncers. It can't even guarantee checking e killers, anymore (since magic coat lumceus became a thing). Haven't seen any player use a Lugia properly since ages. A+ seems far too good for it to be in.

Gira-O A- = B+
Not nearly as good in AG as it is in Ubers. Rai/Y-god eat this for breakfast. Going for offensive presence would mean losing out on wisp/toxic, as well as the already lost lefties recovery. Suffers from 4MSS and usually has no spot for any sort of recovery. Can be phazed out quite easily and you end up losing your defogger. It doesn't hold a niche in offensive teams, either. HO being so dominant in AG also makes Gira-O lose its perks of being in a team. Rapid spin being almost non-existent doesn't help its cause, either. Its offensive presence isn't brutal enough for AG and it just ends up being a "jack of all-master of none" sort of mon.

Palkia B- = C/C-
Why is this at B-, again? I can't think of anything it does other than checking ogre, which isn't even that common or that huge a threat. Set up fodder for too many things to count, doesn't have a great offensive typing and lacks coverage for AG, p don + fairies absorb both of its stab moves and it just does nothing to anything (can't even hit p ogre too hard and will quite likely lose to it on a switch in). Noming it for C/C- because a straight jump to D would seem rude.

Landorus-I B- = C+/C
Ohkos P don, xerns and e killers after rocks in theory. In practice, it is fragile AF and can't switch into anything. Complete setup fodder for Mray, while at that. I've used this, I've ditched this. Will fit into no good team.

Greninja C = D
Pls.
 

bp scrub

rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
Arceus-Rock: A- -> B+ or B
What benefit really does Arceus-Rock have that merits it to be in the A tier? What exactly are you hitting with that rock typing, besides Ho oh and Lugia? Rayquaza on the switch before it Mega Evolves? Something you do get is a typing weak to Ground, Water, and Fighting. And while it does resist Dragon Ascent Fire Punch/etc. and Extremespeed, if any of the Pokemon that learn these moves have a boost (or even if they don't, in the case of Groudon P), they can smack it with Earthquake for massive damage.
I don't play AG much but from what Zangooser says in chat, apparently more and more MRays are dropping EQ (Boosting move/Espeed/Dragon Ascent/V-Create).
Although yeah, A does seem a little high
 

Finland

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While I have nothing against the other noms, I want to address these two in particular.
(reasoning)
I haven't seen Drifblim used as a lead too much, but the amount of support it would require if it were to not be a lead makes me agree with you anyways on keeping it there.

On Tyranitar. eh..... My gut still feels like it should be lowered at least a stage, but if its a necessary part of a usable team archetype, and isn't complete garbage outside of that role (looks at Drifblim), I can accept that.

Nom -
Lugia A+ = A-

Gira-O A- = B+

Palkia B- = C/C-

Landorus-I B- = C+/C=

Greninja C = D
I'm starting to use Lugia now, but haven't used it enough recently to have too much of an opinion on it.
Strongly agree.
Strongly agree.
Strongly agree.
Think that a full rank drop is a bit much when Greninja does have usable attributes as a lead (especially Toxic Spikes and Taunt, a combination which it is the only remotely usable Pokemon in AG to have)
 
Alright, I'll do that, I'll get back to everyone in a few days about it.
I've been playing around lots with the Eon twins in the past few days in various different teams and, to be frank, they're really not that good. They are a good enough defogger but are severely outclassed by the various Arceus forms, especially in the that they can run enough bulk to safely switch into many situations whereas the Eon twins are comparatively fragile. Their offensive capabilities are passable and they can certainly provide a hard check to Pogre and a softer one to Pdon and, with the right prediction, can act as a counter to these two. However, Draco Meteor, the primary move used to KO the Primals is massive set-up bait for pretty much any sweeper in the tier (Geoxern, Ekiller, MRay, etc.). On the other hand, the sort of movesets that the twins both possess, containing moves such as Calm Mind, allowing for possible sweeps, Healing Wish, which is a great support move, and Memento, which gives another mon both a free switch-in and a turn to set up paired with moves such as Psyshock, which deals a solid amount of damage to near any Pokemon, and Draco Meteor, which, with STAB calculated, is next to Ray's V-Create in power and hits a majority of the meta at least neutrally is enough in my eyes to merit a raise to B rank for both of the Eon twins.
 

MZ

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Let's drop Mega Kanga to D. I tried using it and honestly when are you wanting this over some variant of Arceus? It's one of those mons we had on holdover from Ubers vr but the difference there is you can't use Arceus and then a typed version of Arceus. There's no such opportunity cost here. Plus it takes up a mega slot from the 4 really good ones and the other 4 mediocre ones blah blah blah this sucks
 

Finland

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Some other thoughts.

Really thinking about nomming Ho-Oh to A, but I'll think that one over.

Heatran unranked. Heatran doesn't even have a Uber analysis and isn't even ranked in Ubers Vr. there is no way it belongs here, unless you want to take a Groudon P Fire Punch or something and get KOd by Blades 1-2 turns later (depending on whether or not you have bloon).
But, in more seriousness: To have some semblance of reliability it has to run air balloon; it's too unremarkable to run a choice scarf/specs/Lo set and too vulnerable/unthreatening to have the staying power leftovers needs. Even with bloon intact, Arceus KOs with E speed+eq, Darkrai laughs at it, Groudon-P does as Arceus unless it only has ground/Rock, Xern sets up Geo kills with FB and sweeps unless Heatran roars I guess. Etc., etc. It can barely even switch on Mray that has no EQ, which can even ko with a +2 Ascent. The worst problem is that it can barely do anything to anything besides status and roar.

Arceus Fire unranked. Fire is actually a pretty bad type to have as your only offensive type, because really, what you're hitting (Klef, genesect, skarm, ferro) < what you don't hit (Rayquaza mega, groudon p, Arceus water, Arceus Rock, Ho oh, Giratina) by a far margin. Fire of course is poor defensively with weaknesses to common types like ground and rock and near useless resistances like to grass and bug. There's literally almost zero reason to use him.

Edit: and def agreeing with megazard on dropping kanga to D

Tentacruel for unranked. It sets toxic spikes. It uses rapid spin. It's setup bait for literally everything decent (and for physical attackers has a Lum Berry for scald maybe). While its technically in possession of a niche, it's so horrendous I don't think it deserves a spot.
Arc Bug unranked.
Arc Electric to D.

Still Kyogre P to B+ or B
Mewtwo B+ -> B

This actually used to be my favorite mega. However, it just loses to so many top threats. For example, even if you are at +1 and with Poison Jab, Xerneas still destroys you. MMX doesn't just lose these matchups too; becomes setup bait that will cost your team the game. It has no priority and is forced to use a slow and subpar setup move in Bulk Up. It's downsides and opportunity cost make me think it belongs a rung lower than where it is.
Palkia to C (or something)
I think it's been said, but Palkia needs a change. One of its most important niches in Ubers is being a Kyogre/Pogre stop and not having a weakness to Pursuit; all 3 of these are definitely less relevant in AG than they are in Uber. Its odd and not particularly advantageous speed tier combined with OK typing and total lack of priority make it lose to most top threats. This includes Arceus, Darkrai, Groudon-P, and more
 
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chlo

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Some other thoughts.

Really thinking about nomming Ho-Oh to A, but I'll think that one over.

Heatran unranked. Heatran doesn't even have a Uber analysis and isn't even ranked in Ubers Vr. there is no way it belongs here, unless you want to take a Groudon P Fire Punch or something and get KOd by Blades 1-2 turns later (depending on whether or not you have bloon).
But, in more seriousness: To have some semblance of reliability it has to run air balloon; it's too unremarkable to run a choice scarf/specs/Lo set and too vulnerable/unthreatening to have the staying power leftovers needs. Even with bloon intact, Arceus KOs with E speed+eq, Darkrai laughs at it, Groudon-P does as Arceus unless it only has ground/Rock, Xern sets up Geo kills with FB and sweeps unless Heatran roars I guess. Etc., etc. It can barely even switch on Mray that has no EQ, which can even ko with a +2 Ascent. The worst problem is that it can barely do anything to anything besides status and roar.

Arceus Fire unranked. Fire is actually a pretty bad type to have as your only offensive type, because really, what you're hitting (Klef, genesect, skarm, ferro) < what you don't hit (Rayquaza mega, groudon p, Arceus water, Arceus Rock, Ho oh, Giratina) by a far margin. Fire of course is poor defensively with weaknesses to common types like ground and rock and near useless resistances like to grass and bug. There's literally almost zero reason to use him.

Edit: and def agreeing with megazard on dropping kanga

To not be clunky and make a ton of posts, more ideas:
Tentacruel for unranked. It sets toxic spikes. It uses rapid spin. It's setup bait for literally everything decent (and for physical attackers has a Lum Berry for scald maybe). While its technically in possession of a niche, it's so horrendous I don't think it deserves a spot.

Arc Bug unranked.
Arc Electric to D.
Still Kyogre P to B+ or B
Ho-Oh is the best pokémon in A+, what are you even saying?
Heatran enables a stop to regular Support Don, which can be extremely useful for some teams, the fire immunity is also extremely nice as it allows Pokémon like Skarmory to avoid V-create in very specific scenarios. While these points may not be enough to justify its rank of D, I feel as if you were underrating it.
Arceus-Fire resists all of Xerneas' attacks and allows it to come in and Psych Up, force Geomancy Xerneas out and potentially sweep. As lethal as Xerneas is within the metagame I can only force myself to believe that this mon should keep its D rank solely for that purpose. However, its an Arceus forme with some additional capability compared to the likes of Psychic Arceus.
Kang I agree. Fake Out is nice on a GeoXern if you have no other checks however this is somewhat redundant s you should have the checks, Nvm this point is stupid.
Tentacruel I agree I think.
Arceus-Bug has a decent physical set which allows baiting common threats such as Ho-Oh due to most players being unaware of the Stone Edge coverage. That's not the reason I'm arguing to keep it at D though. It arguably has more use than some other D ranks, as it is an Arceus forme hence it has so much capability.
Arceus-Electric I agree I think.
Kyogre, I'll leave for now.
 

Finland

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Ho-Oh is the best pokémon in A+, what are you even saying?
Heatran enables a stop to regular Support Don, which can be extremely useful for some teams, the fire immunity is also extremely nice as it allows Pokémon like Skarmory to avoid V-create in very specific scenarios. While these points may not be enough to justify its rank of D, I feel as if you were underrating it.
Arceus-Fire resists all of Xerneas' attacks and allows it to come in and Psych Up, force Geomancy Xerneas out and potentially sweep. As lethal as Xerneas is within the metagame I can only force myself to believe that this mon should keep its D rank solely for that purpose. However, its an Arceus forme with some additional capability compared to the likes of Psychic Arceus.
Kang I agree. Fake Out is nice on a GeoXern if you have no other checks however this is somewhat redundant s you should have the checks, Nvm this point is stupid.
Tentacruel I agree I think.
Arceus-Bug has a decent physical set which allows baiting common threats such as Ho-Oh due to most players being unaware of the Stone Edge coverage. That's not the reason I'm arguing to keep it at D though. It arguably has more use than some other D ranks, as it is an Arceus forme hence it has so much capability.
Arceus-Electric I agree I think.
Kyogre, I'll leave for now.
Well, I see Ho-Oh may not have been the best idea lol. Perhaps I should play with it more and learn about it more in depth.

Heatran... perhaps I am underestimating it, but stopping standard support regDon is kinda not as impressive as stopping GeoXern, and I doubt we're moving Arceus-Fire out of D rank. All it can really do once it is is toxic, which is something, but it's not "setting up and killing your dudes". Speaking of that... I'll presume V-Create from M-Ray. I do admit that i forgot Heatran could run 252 Bold, but even with that, unless you get some great Lava Plume hax, what prevents this from happening in 3 turns (generously assuming Mray hasn't set up at all yet)?
+2 252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 190-224 (49.2 - 58%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I see where you're coming from in keeping non-complete-trash Arceus formes (looking at you psychic) outside of unranked, and I agree. However, I'm not sure a mon deserves D just because it defeats a top tier threat (Numel). And I'm kinda unsure about what you are saying with Xern so... Arc Fire definitely can't switch in on an already Geod Xerneas, and will come out of the affair missing a huge chunk of its HP if Xern doesnt switch out, making it very susceptible to priority moves (especially omnipresent extreme speed). Well, assuming Arc Fire survives. Maybe I have some of the spreads run, since I haven't really seen what Arceus Fire runs, but anyways...
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast/HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fire: 247-291 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 207-244 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
I guess that you would run judgement over overheat if you're thinking of sweeping.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast/HP Ground vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fire: 124-146 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

If Xern can land three Focus Blast/HP Grounds, Arceus Fire is no more. I'm also kind of wondering why Ditto wouldn't just be better. I don't know of any Xerneas that runs 252+ speed, and while it lacks Arceus-y utility, Ditto deters many more threats from setting up.

Because of reasons including defensive fraility, very lacking speed (that cannot be boosted, no rock polish for you), no way to boost its special offense 2 stages in a turn, and acute vulnerability to things like Pdon and Geoxern, Pogre should still drop, but that's your call ofc.

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 385-454 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (so close but so far!)
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 352-416 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

If it has even the tiniest chip damage or is resting, Xerneas can pounce. And of course Groudon-P sends a non-boosted Pogre out and can SD/RP/Rocks/attack in the free turn.
 
Ok, some nominations.

Lugia A+ -> A
When taking into account that Lugia is walled by Steel types, made vulnerable by Stealth Rock, cannot outspeed many of its counters (Darkrai, Mega Gengar, multiple Arc forms) and is crippled by any status move I believe that it is easy to see why Lugia no longer merits a position in A+.

Arceus-Rock A- -> B+
I'm not sure if I'm simply misinterpreting what Arc-Rock is supposed to do, but all I can see is that it acts as a switch-in to Ho-Oh. However, seeing as Ho-Oh generally carries EQ and that all other Arceus forms can also carry SE/RS without the crippling weaknesses that Rock comes with.

Ferrothorn B- -> B
Ferrothorn can effectively stall and wall a majority of the meta and, with Gyro Ball, is not entirely bait for taunt users. It can heal quickly with Leech Seed and can set up hazards with Stealth Rock. It's threats can be scouted out with protect and, generally, easily switched into as many Pokemon resist Fire and Fight.

Some other thoughts.
Really thinking about nomming Ho-Oh to A, but I'll think that one over.
I personally wouldn't mind this too much, I know other people would disagree with me but I think that Ho-Oh is definitely overrated. It can hit hard, that is certain, but it carries a weakness to SR that creates a need for support from the rest of the team as well as being OHKO'ed by any Rock type move. Regenerator is fun to use, but it still doesn't merit an A+ rank, at least in my eyes.

Some other thoughts.
Palkia to C (or something)
I think it's been said, but Palkia needs a change. One of its most important niches in Ubers is being a Kyogre/Pogre stop and not having a weakness to Pursuit; all 3 of these are definitely less relevant in AG than they are in Uber. Its odd and not particularly advantageous speed tier combined with OK typing and total lack of priority make it lose to most top threats. This includes Arceus, Darkrai, Groudon-P, and more
I definitely disagree with Palkia dropping. Water resist has been what it is generally used for in the past, but the sort of power it carries when holding a lustrous orb shouldn't be ignored. It can run a bulky build that allows it to switch into many attacks and follow through with Spacial Rend or Hydro Pump, both of which carry significant amounts of power. I'm not claiming that it's great, just that it doesn't deserve a demotion in my opinion.
 
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Finland

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Ok, some nominations.
Lugia A+ -> A
When taking into account that Lugia is walled by Steel types, made vulnerable by Stealth Rock, cannot outspeed many of its counters (Darkrai, Mega Gengar, multiple Arc forms) and is crippled by any status move I believe that it is easy to see why Lugia no longer merits a position in A+.

Arceus-Rock A- -> B+
I'm not sure if I'm simply misinterpreting what Arc-Rock is supposed to do, but all I can see is that it acts as a switch-in to Ho-Oh. However, seeing as Ho-Oh generally carries EQ and that all other Arceus forms can also carry SE/RS without the crippling weaknesses that Rock comes with.

Ferrothorn B- -> B
Ferrothorn can effectively stall and wall a majority of the meta and, with Gyro Ball, is not entirely bait for taunt users. It can heal quickly with Leech Seed and can set up hazards with Stealth Rock. It's threats can be scouted out with protect and, generally, easily switched into as many Pokemon resist Fire and Fight.

I definitely disagree with Palkia dropping. Water resist has been what it is generally used for in the past, but the sort of power it carries when holding a lustrous orb shouldn't be ignored. It can run a bulky build that allows it to switch into many attacks and follow through with Spacial Rend or Hydro Pump, both of which carry significant amounts of power. I'm not claiming that it's great, just that it doesn't deserve a demotion in my opinion.

Agree; I think that's the perfect place for it.

Considering i also suggested that lol, I agree.

Eh. Protect takes away a moveslot and leaves it vulnerable to setup. Because if Ho oh or something comes in, it can predict that ferro will do something passive, so unless its trying to set up Flame Charge or something you've basically wasted a turn. Neutral overall about the nom.

A bulky build means that basically everything non-Ferro speed outruns it and hits weak 90/100 defense (since AG is predominantly physical).Especially with the abundance of setup moves in AG, it has a hard time switching into things and making an impact, especially since it has poor matches against the top end of the tier. It really struggles to distinguish itself in a very competitive metagame, making it worthy of falling to C imo. At least Dialga has that nice Steel typing. Not only does it have a hard time switching in on threats, it even has a hard time finding 1v1 matches to win.

Anyways, out of the intro into the actual argument. After running the calcs, I'm in serious doubt anything besides a 252 HP 252+ Special Attack bulky spread is viable (besides maybe choice scarf/specs, but using a STAB move lets xern/pdon switch in and use geo/rock polish or sd respectively for free) because its still outsped by most relevant things no matter what speed it runs (besides scarf obviously) and it really needs that bulk to have a chance to have a chance in 1v1 matchups. Defensive spreads could seem plausible, but the Primals just do those much better, and it has enough worries about competition with Pogre for a teamslot anyways. Without that bulk, it loses a lot of key matchups, such as v. Ekiller Arceus that has at least one of LO/Return/Adamant and v. Mega Diancie. Even with this bulk investment, if it loses as little as 15-20% of its health, it becomes much more vulnerable.

Matchup Summaries:
Darkrai kills it unless it gets unlucky with DV
Pdon kills it (and can set up an SD)
Xerneas kills (and can set up Geomancy)
Conservative Ekiller Arceus (Lum, Jolly, no Return) requires ~30% chip damage to setup on it and kill
Hardcore Ekiller Arceus (LO/Silk Scarf, Adamant, Return) kills it (and sets up SD)
Arceus-Fairy kills it (and can set up CM if it has it)
CM Arceus-Ghost sets up CM and stalls/kills it unless crithax
SD Arceus Ghost sets up SD and kills it, but does rely on Shadow Force to do so
Ho-Oh loses more often than not, but CB Ho-Oh with at least ~100 speed investment wins with ~15% chip damage
Klefki has no particular problems against it
Lugia shuts it down and kills it with Toxic

So against the top 10 threats of the tier, it basically loses to 8-9/10, depending on your viewpoints on some of the less set in stone matchups and what sets actually get run. Except for maybe Ho-Oh, it can't switch into any of these.

Another problem is; basically whatever Palkia runs, it will be outclassed, especially by Kyogre-Primal. If Palkia has advantages, they are niche and befitting a C rank Pokemon. Here's a basic comparison between the two.

Typing Differences:
Palkia: 4x resist fire, 4x resist water, 2x weak dragon, 2x weak fairy
Pogre: Immunity to fire, 1.4x resist water (taking primordial sea into account), 2x resist ice, 2x weak electric, 2x weak grass
Advantage: Pretty balanced. Grass is kind of irrelevant this meta, and while only resisting water 1.4x isn't awesome, the ice resistance and lack of a fairy weakness make up for it. Thunder pops up occasionally, though, which is something to look out for.

Physical bulk: Basically even. 90/100 versus 100/90. Eh. A smidgen in Palkia's favor, i suppose.
Special bulk: Kyogre by a long shot. 90/120 versus 100/160.
Speed: Eh. Palkia can't afford to run much speed, so its not like it will be outspeeding 252 neutral base 90s anyways.
Offense: Definitely Kyogre. Against a random neutral target:
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Palkia has an advantage with an alternate STAB and decent move to use it with (albeit a type that gets very few super effective hits), but Kyogre counters with the ability to burn everything not named Primal Groudon with Scald, increasing the risk of switching into it.

TLDR:
Forced to run max HP to be usable, and even with it, its OK at best defensively and relies on having full HP to function despite having no recovery
Even with its power and bulk investment, loses a lot of important matchups and becomes setup bait, way too often to be in B tier
Fierce competition (and lack of species clause) limits its usability.
 
Agree; I think that's the perfect place for it.

Considering i also suggested that lol, I agree.

Eh. Protect takes away a moveslot and leaves it vulnerable to setup. Because if Ho oh or something comes in, it can predict that ferro will do something passive, so unless its trying to set up Flame Charge or something you've basically wasted a turn. Neutral overall about the nom.

A bulky build means that basically everything non-Ferro speed outruns it and hits weak 90/100 defense (since AG is predominantly physical).Especially with the abundance of setup moves in AG, it has a hard time switching into things and making an impact, especially since it has poor matches against the top end of the tier. It really struggles to distinguish itself in a very competitive metagame, making it worthy of falling to C imo. At least Dialga has that nice Steel typing. Not only does it have a hard time switching in on threats, it even has a hard time finding 1v1 matches to win.

Anyways, out of the intro into the actual argument. After running the calcs, I'm in serious doubt anything besides a 252 HP 252+ Special Attack bulky spread is viable (besides maybe choice scarf/specs, but using a STAB move lets xern/pdon switch in and use geo/rock polish or sd respectively for free) because its still outsped by most relevant things no matter what speed it runs (besides scarf obviously) and it really needs that bulk to have a chance to have a chance in 1v1 matchups. Defensive spreads could seem plausible, but the Primals just do those much better, and it has enough worries about competition with Pogre for a teamslot anyways. Without that bulk, it loses a lot of key matchups, such as v. Ekiller Arceus that has at least one of LO/Return/Adamant and v. Mega Diancie. Even with this bulk investment, if it loses as little as 15-20% of its health, it becomes much more vulnerable.

Matchup Summaries:
Darkrai kills it unless it gets unlucky with DV
Pdon kills it (and can set up an SD)
Xerneas kills (and can set up Geomancy)
Conservative Ekiller Arceus (Lum, Jolly, no Return) requires ~30% chip damage to setup on it and kill
Hardcore Ekiller Arceus (LO/Silk Scarf, Adamant, Return) kills it (and sets up SD)
Arceus-Fairy kills it (and can set up CM if it has it)
CM Arceus-Ghost sets up CM and stalls/kills it unless crithax
SD Arceus Ghost sets up SD and kills it, but does rely on Shadow Force to do so
Ho-Oh loses more often than not, but CB Ho-Oh with at least ~100 speed investment wins with ~15% chip damage
Klefki has no particular problems against it
Lugia shuts it down and kills it with Toxic

So against the top 10 threats of the tier, it basically loses to 8-9/10, depending on your viewpoints on some of the less set in stone matchups and what sets actually get run. Except for maybe Ho-Oh, it can't switch into any of these.

Another problem is; basically whatever Palkia runs, it will be outclassed, especially by Kyogre-Primal. If Palkia has advantages, they are niche and befitting a C rank Pokemon. Here's a basic comparison between the two.

Typing Differences:
Palkia: 4x resist fire, 4x resist water, 2x weak dragon, 2x weak fairy
Pogre: Immunity to fire, 1.4x resist water (taking primordial sea into account), 2x resist ice, 2x weak electric, 2x weak grass
Advantage: Pretty balanced. Grass is kind of irrelevant this meta, and while only resisting water 1.4x isn't awesome, the ice resistance and lack of a fairy weakness make up for it. Thunder pops up occasionally, though, which is something to look out for.

Physical bulk: Basically even. 90/100 versus 100/90. Eh. A smidgen in Palkia's favor, i suppose.
Special bulk: Kyogre by a long shot. 90/120 versus 100/160.
Speed: Eh. Palkia can't afford to run much speed, so its not like it will be outspeeding 252 neutral base 90s anyways.
Offense: Definitely Kyogre. Against a random neutral target:
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Palkia has an advantage with an alternate STAB and decent move to use it with (albeit a type that gets very few super effective hits), but Kyogre counters with the ability to burn everything not named Primal Groudon with Scald, increasing the risk of switching into it.

TLDR:
Forced to run max HP to be usable, and even with it, its OK at best defensively and relies on having full HP to function despite having no recovery
Even with its power and bulk investment, loses a lot of important matchups and becomes setup bait, way too often to be in B tier
Fierce competition (and lack of species clause) limits its usability.
Ok, I guess I do agree with most of your Palkia argument, and that I suppose B is too high. Just one thing that annoyed me though is your use of the term usuability in context with viability. SImply because some other Pokemon does the job better doesn't mean the the Pokemon in question should be penalized. I still disagree with Palkia being C material however. Perhaps a C+ ranking would be better suited?
 

chlo

:P
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Change time!
Code:
Latias B- to C
Latios C+ to C-
Clefable to C
Mega Gengar A- to A
Groudon C to C+
Palkia B- to C-
Greninja C to D
Landorus I B- to C
Arceus Rock A- to B+
Mega Mawile D to Unranked
Tentacruel D to Unranked
Quagsire D to C
Arceus Bug D to Unranked
TheHungrySage, Ho-Oh isn't overrated in my honest opinion. I'll write an essay later.
Any changes you disagree with, feel free to voice your opinion.
The council decided on these based off the input in the thread.
 

baconbagon

free stabmons
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i hate posting in ag but this made me mad

Mewtwo B+ -> B
This actually used to be my favorite mega.
hi could you actually name mmx if you're going to talk about it in your nom

However, it just loses to so many top threats. For example, even if you are at +1 and with Poison Jab, Xerneas still destroys you.
mfw running poison jab when iron tail exists

+1 252 Atk Mega Mewtwo X Iron Tail vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 442-520 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

MMX doesn't just lose these matchups too; becomes setup bait that will cost your team the game.
mega mewtwo x has base 130 speed. it learns both taunt and will-o-wisp. at what point does it become setup bait for anything?

It has no priority
darkrai doesn't have priority and cannot boost its speed. ho-oh doesn't have priority and cannot boost its speed outside of the awful flame charge. mega gengar doesn't have priority and cannot boost its speed. when does not having priority hold back a pokemon from succeeding? you're going to have to expand on your thought process a little lol

and is forced to use a slow and subpar setup move in Bulk Up.
mmx has never been forced to use bulk up at all, it's universally considered a bad set.

It's downsides and opportunity cost make me think it belongs a rung lower than where it is.
this pokemon can ohko ekiller with ease, 2hko defensive pdon after stealth rock, murder ho-oh, ohko mega rayquaza 56.3% of the time, 2hko xerneas, outspeed and ohko darkrai, cripple all physical attackers with a fast wisp, prevent setup and stallbreak with taunt, and even run special sets that hit yveltal hard with focus blast if it wants. of course, this is all completely unpredictable and it can run whatever it wants depending on its team. all it needs is a defensive backbone and some hazards up, and it can absolutely rip through teams. is it really that bad?
 

chlo

:P
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Discussion Topics:
Chansey/Blissey to C?
Heatran D to Unranked?
Tyranitar C+ to C?
Lugia A+ to A?
Giratina-O A- to B+?

Also if we're going to debate Blissey > Chansey. Here's my argument.
Mega Gengar is common on all strands of the ladder, but even more high ladder. Usually Blissey or Chansey is your special backbone, hence if you see Mega Gengar and you have Chansey; you almost lose on matchup.

Chansey requires immense team support to work against MGar. You're required to run a pursuit trapper such as Tyranitar. You can't run Chansey by itself, and hence are required to run two pokémon for a purpose that Blissey would achieve in one.

Hence I believe Blissey is the superior mon.
 

Finland

TRUE!
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absolute shattering of my reasoning
Not gonna lie
Discussion Topics:
Chansey/Blissey to C?
Heatran D to Unranked?
Tyranitar C+ to C?
Lugia A+ to A?
Giratina-O A- to B+?

Also if we're going to debate Blissey > Chansey. Here's my argument.
Mega Gengar is common on all strands of the ladder, but even more high ladder. Usually Blissey or Chansey is your special backbone, hence if you see Mega Gengar and you have Chansey; you almost lose on matchup.

Chansey requires immense team support to work against MGar. You're required to run a pursuit trapper such as Tyranitar. You can't run Chansey by itself, and hence are required to run two pokémon for a purpose that Blissey would achieve in one.

Hence I believe Blissey is the superior mon.
I think we should put Blissey in C and Chansey in C-, bc I completely share your line of thought.
Agree fully with all the rest.
 
Scizor to C

Scizor’s a pretty great Xerneas and Arceus check (probably one of the more obviously reliable), but aside from that it has terrible matchup issues against now even more common mons with Fire-type coverage or neutral special attacks. Scizor is not strong too because it’s often forced to run Pursuit and U-turn, and fares badly against some stall Pokemon.
A probably more practical reason is that since it’s already C+ in the Ubers VR, it should drop a lot here too.

Excadrill deserves a rise too (probably to the C ranks). I know how it has a bad speed tier and is checked by P-don and all, but it doesn't have many switchins (to be fair, it has a hard time switching in itself) and hits one of the best unboosted speed tiers in sand.

TheTiksiBranch You don't need to elaborate on every aspect of the 'mon; just important attributes and why it should drop. I appreciate the effort but it makes your posts clunky and not concise. Also one-liners are arbitrary most of the time.
 

chlo

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A probably more practical reason is that since it’s already C+ in the Ubers VR, it should drop a lot here too.
You'll never change :^)

but aside from that it has terrible matchup issues against now even more common mons with Fire-type coverage or neutral special attacks
Rayquaza has terrible matchup issues against fairies, Ho-Oh has terrible matchup issues against Rock-type coverage; I do not see how this warrants a drop. Even though I believe it should drop, it requires reasoning that isn't lacking in content, or has no content at all.

hits one of the best unboosted speed tiers in sand.
Sand the dominant AG playstyle, clearly the sole reason anyone would use an Excadrill. I think you're missing what Excadrill does within the metagame that allows for its rank in the first place. It's a suicide lead capable of setting up rocks on even Diancie, with Rapid Spin capabilities to enable to rocks being set up on its side of the field.
 
You'll never change :^)


Rayquaza has terrible matchup issues against fairies, Ho-Oh has terrible matchup issues against Rock-type coverage; I do not see how this warrants a drop. Even though I believe it should drop, it requires reasoning that isn't lacking in content, or has no content at all.


Sand the dominant AG playstyle, clearly the sole reason anyone would use an Excadrill. I think you're missing what Excadrill does within the metagame that allows for its rank in the first place. It's a suicide lead capable of setting up rocks on even Diancie, with Rapid Spin capabilities to enable to rocks being set up on its side of the field.
You misunderstand (no offense). Ubers is the most analogous tier to AG still (clauses and mray diff only); Scizor is worse in AG than here purely because it's a mega too (and AG is harder on everything). Admittedly I was trying to flesh out my comment.
I was a little mehd when I saw the thing about sand. The main thing is that you can pair it with T-tar without losing much; Excadrill provides a) a sweeper; b) a check for some of T-tar's counters/checks (e.g. Xerneas). T-tar and Exca in general is a lot worse here but Excadrill should at most be one or two ranks below T-tar.
edit: kind of anxious, so I'll say sorry in advance for my rudeness.
reply at below: Scizor functions as a Xerneas check mainly in AG still (and can endure a few attacks from ray), and Excadrill a lot worse in ag because of mons like klefki and ray. Though AG is totally different from Ubers a lot of the specific check mons are at least fairly comparable. Sorry though, I should think through my comments. (though you remind me of me nitpicking :/)
 
Last edited:
You misunderstand (no offense). Ubers is the most analogous tier to AG still (clauses and mray diff only); Scizor is worse in AG than here purely because it's a mega too (and AG is harder on everything). Admittedly I was trying to flesh out my comment.
I was a little mehd when I saw the thing about sand. The main thing is that you can pair it with T-tar without losing much; Excadrill provides a) a sweeper; b) a check for some of T-tar's counters/checks (e.g. Xerneas). T-tar and Exca in general is a lot worse here but Excadrill should at most be one or two ranks below T-tar.
edit: kind of anxious, so I'll say sorry in advance for my rudeness.
Comparing AG to Ubers is going to make people not like you, so please don't do it. Saying that Ubers is most analogous to AG is like saying that RU is most analogous to OU-sure, it might be, but the metagames are two completely different things and it just makes you look stupid.
 
You misunderstand (no offense). Ubers is the most analogous tier to AG still (clauses and mray diff only); Scizor is worse in AG than here purely because it's a mega too (and AG is harder on everything). Admittedly I was trying to flesh out my comment.
I was a little mehd when I saw the thing about sand. The main thing is that you can pair it with T-tar without losing much; Excadrill provides a) a sweeper; b) a check for some of T-tar's counters/checks (e.g. Xerneas). T-tar and Exca in general is a lot worse here but Excadrill should at most be one or two ranks below T-tar.
edit: kind of anxious, so I'll say sorry in advance for my rudeness.
reply at below: Scizor functions as a Xerneas check mainly in AG still (and can endure a few attacks from ray), and Excadrill a lot worse in ag because of mons like klefki and ray. Though AG is totally different from Ubers a lot of the specific check mons are at least fairly comparable. Sorry though, I should think through my comments. (though you remind me of me nitpicking :/)
Wait, having the rare Rapid Spin + Mold Breaker along with support moves like Stealth Rocks and Toxic is worse than T-tar, who's Sand Stream is easily negated by the weather trio? Even if T-tar has Stealth Rock, many mons can do is better. If it opts for Pursuit, I think T-tar almost pretty much needs to run Choice Band or Life Orb (unless I'm seriously underestimating it) and that means using Stealth Rocks is going to be harder too. Sandstorm also doesn't hurt much in a meta where stall is fairly uncommon, and even if it does hurt the opponent, you'll be likely finding that you're hurting your own teammates in the process too. As for Exca, it completely shatters the opponent's Magic Bounce, does chunks of damage with its great STAB move, and gives you the option to use Rapid Spin, a move that doesn't remove your own hazards. It also has a pretty nice 88 speed tier, allowing it to outspeed the common Primal Mons and hit both of them hard with Earthquake if needed. I think Exca is better than T-tar.
 

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