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Chloe

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Gone through with the following.
Code:
Landorus-I: TBD to C
Arceus-Fairy: A+ to A
Arceus-Rock: B+ to A-
Kyurem-White: TBD to C
Latias: TBD to C-
Latios: TBD to D
Tyranitar: TBD to C
Mewtwo-Mega-X: TBD to C+
Kyogre: TBD to B-
Excadrill: TBD to C-
Smeargle: TBD to B-
Groudon: B- to B+
Arceus-Ground: A- to A
Amoonguss: C- to D
Arceus-Dark: TBD to C
Salamence-Mega: TBD to B-
We have four days to finish this, so please nominate anything you think should be ranked somewhere else.
Sage, you promised an essay, that's not an essay, smh :[
 
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Even more on this point, for Zekrom to even misplay in the first place it requires Zekrom to want to use either a Dragon move, requiring a team of threats like Giratina and the likes, or BS, requiring Skarmory, Lugia and the likes.
Untrue. Since Electric and Dragon moves are your most powerful and therefore your best wallbreaking tools, you'll want to be using either one 98% of the time, regardless of your opponents team. Does the common Scarf set even run anything not electric or dragon? i guess stone edge or earth power are possibilities, but the former compounds reliability problems and the latter feels gimmicky/weak
Furthermore, it requires a Pokemon to capitalize on that mess-up, thus requiring either Pdon or Xerneas to be on the right team matchup just to capitalize on a little-known Pokemon's mess-up.
(The two ubiquitous mons whose names are) Pdon and Xerneas aren't used to punish Zekrom. That's just an innate and minor part of their role compressions, and either (arceus forbid both) screw with Zek just by being there, regardless of matchup. For example, unless you're superbly confident in your Xern-stopping abilities and have no objection to losing Zekrom guaranteed, the move Outrage basically doesn't exist while an opposing Xerneas lives.
Do you see what I'm getting at? While you've made it out to be a really big probability that Zekrom's going to mess up, it requires a very specific team set-up just to hurt a little-used Pokemon and a good prediction on their part, which at very worst makes the probability 50/50. The idea here is that it's not such a massive likelihood in the first place.
Honestly you don't need prediction that much. Even if your opponent mispredicts and Zekrom nabs a kill, you can just send out Xern/Pdon/Arceus-Ground/Arceus-Fairy on an immunity and forced switch (since Zek is obviously choice-locked), and proceed set up Geo/Polish/SD/CM. I've covered why you don't need a specific team setup or even that good prediction (although good prediction certainly makes Zekrom's life even worse).

Another aspect of this argument is the way you say that the other B+ ranks don't have the issue of being countered to oblivion by Pdon and Xerneas. Let's take a look at that claim.

Dragonceus-Has to pick between switching out to dodge Xerneas's Moonblast or using Roar to phase Xerneas's Geomancy. 50/50, right? This is the exact same as the probability I'm using for Zekrom that I have to stress is most likely worst-case. As such, under this argument, Zekrom performs better than Dragonceus.

Rockceus-Essentially the same thing as before, has to 50/50 between taking an EQ/PB from Pdon or switching out and giving it a free RP. As such, Zekrom performs better.

Gira-O-Has to pick between switching from Xerneas and giving it Geomancy and staying in and taking a Moonblast. 50/50.

Skarmory-Has to choose between Toxic-ing Pdon and taking a Fire Punch, which OHKO's after rocks, or switching out and giving it a Rock Polish. 50/50
According to you, these guys all have 50% chance to come out at least neutrally, a better chance than a choiced outrage/meteor zek has against a xerneas revenge kill. Again, even if Zek does its job and you win the initial 50/50, you have an extra "screwed potential factor" because Zekrom is predictably choice-locked and a revenge killer makes zek's life traumatic. Also, these guys are plauged by either pdon/xerneas, not both.
Deo-A-Not really applicable to this argument, completely different type of Pokemon
agreed

I'm not really sure if I understand what you're saying here, but it seems like you've listed the perks of each Pokemon?
Generally, finding out what advantages (and disadvantages) Zekrom has over a badmon to find its niches (and flaws). I'm being purposefully brief here since i don't want to get bogged down in a zekrom v. rayquaza debate when zekrom is obviously better

Ray doesn't revenge kill-Zekrom can, with Choice Scarf, and Rayquaza can only try to revenge with an Espeed that is, quite frankly, not very strong.
Who says that Ray can't run scarf? Any mon with greater-than-Togekiss speed and solid offense can theoretically slip on a scarf and revenge kill. Zek has electric coverage, and fewer relevant things are hit super effectively by Flying, but Rayquaza has key Water/Fire coverage and is equal to or stronger than Zekrom is by offensive stats.

Ray doesn't break physical walls without setting up lots first, which can be destroyed by WoW or Roar, whereas Zekrom can often OHKO walls or at least KO a weakened one.
Wow basically makes Zekrom a non-entity (at least when you consider wow-ing a ray you know lum berry is a technical possibility), band/lo ray is quite a bit stronger than scarf zekrom is, and doesn't have the matchup on things like lugia/yveltal/giratina but does on things like pdon/arceus-steel/neutral targets[/hide]

I probably haven't touched on everything there, but I would make the argument that Zekrom outweighs Rayquaza by a fairly large amount, enough to justify B+ or at least B.
I'd say it outweighs by about full rank, roughly putting it at c=, but not by two
 
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DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Is there anything that makes Zekrom stand out compared to Kyu-W? I didn't read through both your posts in great detail, but kyu-w does the same or more damage to the threats you mentioned, and while it doesn't like Ho-Oh I think its ability to more reliably just use one move (Ice beam, which against S-ranks is more reliable than either bolt strike, outrage or draco) would make up for not having volt switch.
 
Some noms on tbd things
Espeon/Drifblim to C=
Important to a semi-decent playstyle is the niche meriting them the rank, severe lack of other niches and that playstyle's dubious security to many common strategies prevent them from going higher
Scolipede to C+
The former except that it also has toxic spikes, speed boost, and endeavor, which gives it some kind of an extant niche outside of BP that slips it up a subrank
Rayquaza to D/C-
Strong offenses, above 90 speed, versatility, and coverage give it advantages, but it's pretty hard to justify using it on a team when it's better self is a face of the tier, Ho-Oh is a way better band/lo Flying mon, and super hard to switch in, rather frail, has big problems with opposing priority and Scarf mons
Despite these difficulties, I think it's advantages/niche as a versatile and powerful Flying mon merit a rank
 
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We're still only discussing the viability of mons in Gen VI.

But to answer your question - there will certainly a big drop in its viability (almost useless as compared to rn). I don't really think it will be all that relevant in Gen 7 to the point that every team needs to run a check; which is the case rn; since that accuracy is just way too bad (you could run hypnosis but even that has 60% accuracy, pp is definitely a + tho).

It can still be troublesome for stall, that is if stall exists in Gen7.

I'd say, and most people would agree I think, that it will probably drop to OU from Ubers.
 
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Untrue. Since Electric and Dragon moves are your most powerful and therefore your best wallbreaking tools, you'll want to be using either one 98% of the time, regardless of your opponents team. Does the common Scarf set even run anything not electric or dragon? i guess stone edge or earth power are possibilities, but the former compounds reliability problems and the latter feels gimmicky/weak

(The two ubiquitous mons whose names are) Pdon and Xerneas aren't used to punish Zekrom. That's just an innate and minor part of their role compressions, and either (arceus forbid both) screw with Zek just by being there, regardless of matchup. For example, unless you're superbly confident in your Xern-stopping abilities and have no objection to losing Zekrom guaranteed, the move Outrage basically doesn't exist while an opposing Xerneas lives.

Honestly you don't need prediction that much. Even if your opponent mispredicts and Zekrom nabs a kill, you can just send out Xern/Pdon/Arceus-Ground/Arceus-Fairy on an immunity and forced switch (since Zek is obviously choice-locked), and proceed set up Geo/Polish/SD/CM. I've covered why you don't need a specific team setup or even that good prediction (although good prediction certainly makes Zekrom's life even worse).


According to you, these guys all have 50% chance to come out at least neutrally, a better chance than a choiced outrage/meteor zek has against a xerneas revenge kill. Again, even if Zek does its job and you win the initial 50/50, you have an extra "screwed potential factor" because Zekrom is predictably choice-locked and a revenge killer makes zek's life traumatic. Also, these guys are plauged by either pdon/xerneas, not both.

agreed


Generally, finding out what advantages (and disadvantages) Zekrom has over a badmon to find its niches (and flaws). I'm being purposefully brief here since i don't want to get bogged down in a zekrom v. rayquaza debate when zekrom is obviously better


Who says that Ray can't run scarf? Any mon with greater-than-Togekiss speed and solid offense can theoretically slip on a scarf and revenge kill. Zek has electric coverage, and fewer relevant things are hit super effectively by Flying, but Rayquaza has key Water/Fire coverage and is equal to or stronger than Zekrom is by offensive stats.


Wow basically makes Zekrom a non-entity (at least when you consider wow-ing a ray you know lum berry is a technical possibility), band/lo ray is quite a bit stronger than scarf zekrom is, and doesn't have the matchup on things like lugia/yveltal/giratina but does on things like pdon/arceus-steel/neutral targets[/hide]


I'd say it outweighs by about full rank, roughly putting it at c=, but not by two
welp.
Altering my argument to put Zekrom in B-
Reasoning-I believe that this is a much more reasonable claim to have made and I would've made it in the first place but, you know what they say-Shoot for the moon and even if you miss, you'll land among the stars. However, I think a decent point has been made in the ccomparison between Zekrom and the B+ rank, showing that, despite being proposed for two ranks lower, Zekrom can still hold it's own.

Your first three points I suppose are correct, I forfeit them to you, I should've thought of that in the first place. However, I'd just like to mention that there are still multiple Pokemon throughout the B ranks that are akin to your point in 3, for instance Ferrothorn with Pdon, which can just switch in for free and set up. As such, I think that, while true, it's equaly true for many of the Pokemon across the B ranks and as such shouldn't put Zekrom down too much.

You said something along the lines of "these are only plagued by either Pdon or Xern", sorry for no quote, I'm a lazy shit. While this is true none of these Pokemon can offer the almost unique potential Zekrom has for physical wall breaking. As such, I believe that this double-edged sword scenario is more than acceptable, as Zekrom is a team weakness but can be utilized as a team strength.

"Who says that Ray can't run scarf" I think here that, if Rayquaza runs scarf it loses many of the perks you pointed out such as coverage and slips significantly below Zekrom, at least in my opinion. As such, I ignored this possibility. Considering it, ScarfRay is quick but has pathetic power, rarely hits with a super-effective move and is pretty much reduced to revenge killing or cleaning a weakened team, whereas a scarfed Zekrom can do this in addition to being able to smash through walls, a superb asset for offensive teams.

Either way, I get what you were doing here, it's not whether or not Zekrom is better than Ray, but by how much, as Ray is a good standpoint to compare things to. Zekrom provides two great role compressions in contrast to ray, which I'll quickly outline
-Wallsmashererer, it doesn't seem like this is being appreciated as much as it should be. Zekrom provides superb wall breaking compression as per physical walls, smashing through nearly all of them with relative ease. Pokemon such as Ray simply can't get close to that. It was brought up that WoW destroys Zek, true on most teams-Zek is meant to be played offensively, but not to the degree at which it risks burns. Many of it's targets, as a result, don't carry WoW, like Skarm and Lugia
-GottaGoFast, Zekrom is quick without sacrificing viability, whereas a scarfed Ray is perhaps one of the least viable sets out there.

Finally, a point that seems to get being missed is that, while Zekrom is apparently awful, it actually fits in really well with the rest of B rank, performing similarly. Is it really reasonable to keep a Pokemon that has the same strategic potential as B-ranked threats inside of C-rank? If someone would mind debunking this it would be much appreciated.

"What does Zekrom do better than Kyu-W?"
While Kyu-W's attacks are more spamable they are, on the whole, less relevant to the metagame. Zekrom has a specific role in smashing physical roles, whereas Kyu-W justs hits everything with IB+DM, not really picking up any critical usefullness.

Thanks for reading another boring Zekrom rant!
 
We're still only discussing the viability of mons in Gen VI.

But to answer your question - there will certainly a big drop in its viability (almost useless as compared to rn). I don't really think it will be all that relevant in Gen 7 to the point that every team needs to run a check; which is the case rn; since that accuracy is just way too bad (you could run hypnosis but even that has 60% accuracy, pp is definitely a + tho).

It can still be troublesome for stall, that is if stall exists in Gen7.

I'd say, and most people would agree I think, that it will probably drop to OU from Ubers.
Ahh okay thanks, I was just wondering if Lum Berry would still be as prevalent as now with Darkrai most likely gone
 
Yeah, Lum Berry usage will definitely get further reduced on Arcs. Dual-Lum or Lum-Coatceus were predominantly used as Rai checks (in some specific cases to play around walls) and with Rai not as much of a threat anymore non lum arceus variants will certainly get a boost. But I wonder if ES arceus will be as popular in Gen7 (due to psychic terrain).

If you're talking about other lum mons such as M-Ray (Yes, LO and Band variants aren't the only sets around), it won't be affected much since they carry lum to set-up on walls which depend upon burning it to handle it better rather than checking Rai.

BTW, Lum Ho-oh is just BAD
 
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Yeah, Lum Berry usage will definitely get further reduced on Arcs. Dual-Lum or Lum-Coatceus were predominantly used as Rai checks (in some specific cases to play around walls) and with Rai not as much of a threat anymore non lum arceus variants will certainly get a boost. But I wonder if ES arceus will be as popular in Gen7 (due to psychic terrain).

If you're talking about other lum mons such as M-Ray (Yes, LO and Band variants aren't the only sets around), it won't be affected much since they carry lum to set-up on walls which depend upon burning it to handle it better rather than checking Rai.

BTW, Lum Ho-oh is just BAD
What about Scarf-Oh
 

Chloe

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Moderator
Code:
Arceus (Fighting) - D
Cloyster - D 
Dialga - B 
Drifblim - C
Espeon - C 
Glalie - C 
Gliscor - D 
Rayquaza - C- 
Scolipede - C 
Tyranitar (Mega) - D
Whimsicott - D
Wobbuffet - C-
And everything else was unranked. We decided that Pokémon that see absolutely no usage within the metagame ultimately shouldn't be ranked. Ranking them at random places, based on arbitrary arguments that can't be proven, really doesn't make sense. So the revamp is now over, just in time for Generation 7.

What about Scarf-Oh
nop

Altering my argument to put Zekrom in B-
nop

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this resource in the previous fourteen months, and also to Funbot's previous iteration. I feel as if we have done a great job in expanding the community and impacting the competitive aspect of the metagame. I hope we can continue to create an accurate viability ranking next generation!
 

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