Anything Goes Resources

Chloe

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The only way I see both parties being happy here would probably be if we did implement an S- Rank, and stored MGar, PDon and Xern there. I don't really see why we shouldn't have an S- Rank, unless it's the old thread's reasoning of "it looks cleaner and more pretty this way". We're trying to make an accurate viability ranking, not a florist.

My suggestion:

S Rank

S Rank
S- Rank
Gengar (Mega)
Groudon (Primal)
Xerneas​

A Rank

A+ Rank
Arceus (Fairy)
Arceus (Ghost)
Ho-Oh
A Rank
This looks pretty enough imo, see three mons in each rank. And it also makes sense!! I think that Smeargle nomination is way too high, I'll write an essay refuting it soon if no one does before me, but busy right now.
Agreeing with Glalie and Shedinja, but Drake please:
i will edit to add arguments a bit busy rn, but i nom GLALIE for B rank
When are you adding arguments? :(

Everyone's opinion on this? Is there an issue with S- that hasn't been addressed?
 

Josh

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S- defeats the purpose of S rank. Pdon Xern and Mgar are not as influential as an S rank should be. I don't appreciate your passive-aggressive-ness but anyways; "We are trying to make an accurate viability ranking, not a florist" would still be accomplished by mgar xern and pdon in A+, there is soo much shit in c that could be combined into 2 ranks very easily because it's all niche and overall mediocre. This debate isn't the mons viability, it's the tier ingredients councils logic, or lack of it right now. Ou doesn't have S- despite Keldeo, Lando-t, and Latios being better than the rest of A+, Ubers has one S+ rank which at 98%+ competitive usage is justified and no S-, Entei/Krook/Sylv are a step above the other A+ yet are still not S-, and Ru/Nu/Pu/LC are the same kinda things. We want AG to be as official as possible, and having while having an S- rank might not seem horrible it's the principle. If you are so adamantly against changing the lower ranks just order S/A ranks by viability, leave lower ranks alphabetical, and be done with it. That way people can clearly see pdon > xern > mgar > either hooh or fairyceus and either ghostceus at the bottom or it alone dropping to A. S rank mons are supposed to define the metagame, there is no middle ground for that which is why S does not have subdivisions. Now, when there's a tier that can't really ban mons with a mon that is nearly essential on every team, that's when you make an exception. Not here.
 

DEG

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I just don't like it when people compares Metas to others and especially if its an OM. Anything Goes isn't just like any tier, there's a lot of different clauses like we don't have both Species and Sleep Clause, this completely changes how a Pokemon is ranked. We have more threats like this, if it wasn't for the Sleep Clause Darkrai wouldn't be as much as a threat as it is now. Anything Goes is a different metagame, so having a sub-rank for S is appreciable since these Pokemon are metagame defining more than other Pokemon are in their respective tier. S+ Pokemon in AG are like, you can splash them on any team once or twice with no opportunity cost (except Mega Rayquaza which has minimal opportunity cost) while S- Pokemon influence the metagame and has roles that can't be accomplished by other Pokemon and aren't that as splashable on the team as much as S+ ranks. Our objective is to simplify and give an accurate Viability Rankings and not copy others.
 

Megazard

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I don't disagree with S- because it takes us closer to OMs and farther away from a tier. Any official tier could make an S- if they wanted to, AG is not an official tier and definitely has problems with certain uncompetitive elements, and if it would fit into their general tiering structure then there wouldn't be an issue. I'm against it because I consider it unnecessary, a way to appease people rather than simply reducing the amount of ranks that we are using to rank a tiny amount of mons outside of TBD. Are these smaller divisions between the set of confirmed higher viability things really so important? Why don't we start ranking by viability rather than alphabetical order until we have a clear list of exactly what's top tier in order for every single mon? I don't think we need to drop either Pdon or Xerneas for the same reason we don't need to move Keldeo, Lando-T, and Latios in OU despite them being clearly better than the rest of A+. They still aren't on S level. A bit of division within ranks is fine if the mons still overall belong in that rank, and I think Pdon and Xerneas still deserve S. This is definitely a subjective call more than an objective call which is why I said if more people supported this I'd be willing to drop Pdon and Xern despite my own feelings, but I haven't /really/ seen that? It's hard to tell when most of the playerbase is just ladder. Still, trying to go S- is just going to create another compromise rather than accepting that some people won't be too happy when they don't get what they want. I promise I won't cry if don or xern drop.

On the bright side, the theorymonning about dropping has made it pretty clear that everybody would support Klefki to A which I agree with, it's definitely fallen out of favor for one reason or another and I don't think a lot is needed to get this through. As for Gengar though... it's not that good. A+ absolutely but I can't really take the nomination seriously when you compare it to every other S rank and see how it's less splashable, reliable, and overall useful. I know spouting that doesn't really help but the nomination literally just listed everything good about it which we already know and why it's really that good or relevant to the metagame to deserve adding another lower-than-the-rest S rank mon, because I don't think it's comparable to don/xern, let alone arc/rai/ray.

As for the glalie and smeargle to ridiculously high ranks (for what they deserve), let's not get ahead of ourselves. Sure, if you get lucky, you can do great. That's just a fact, it's why Moody was banned. However, I 100% disagree with this sentiment
As for unreliable, well, it depends on what you mean. You may lose or win a single match due to hax, but in the long run it's statistics, and it's largely in the Moody user's favor- the fact that Glalie and Smeargle are seriously being nommed for B should tell you how broken Moody is. Over the course of hundreds of ladder games, Evasion boosts saving the Moody user's ass isn't some freak phenomenon/luck/hax, it's simply expected, hence why it works.
Is this serious? If you can win or lose a match depending on Moody boosts which are not in your favor to get evasion, that is not reliable. If I went into a game with the single criteria that getting evasion boost = win and not getting evasion boost = loss (which is far over simplified), I would not expect to win more games than I lost. It's expected you win some games to evasion, but if something has a win rate of 40%? 50%? 60%? that's not a reliable strat to consistently use. And I get that you have better ladder records than that, but so does Amoongus. I dont know how much clearer unreliable could be, sometimes you have games where it completely bails you out, and sometimes you dont get the boosts and lose. I shouldn't need replays to make it clear, that's just how luck works. Overall, the fact that glalie and smeargle are being nommed for B only tells me that people take a mon that isn't splashable, is far from reliable, and still has checks even when they get that evasion boost that really has to work on specific teams and think to themselves that's essentially just as good as Ferrothorn. It's not about them consistently giving high win rates on the ladder, it's about whether you consistently want to use them vs decent teams and that answer once agin seems pretty clear. You are putting your fate into the hands of the rng while they still have the ability to try to play well and overcome problematic boosts even if evasion pops up, and it's not even a particularly favorable roll like the good old swagger 50/50. I've talked to enough people outside of this thread to feel extremely confident in shutting this down, if any of you actually want to post in support then be my guest so it doesn't just look like 2 dudes arguing about moody like it's global warming.
 
Here are my thoughts and opinion regarding the recent posts of this thread. To start off, I think S- could be a nice alternative but I don't think it can really fit. S ranks are the top of the tier and if you make a S- that kinda defeats the purpose in my opinion. As for some of the nominations, they're all bullshit. Glalie and Smeargle for B, seriously? Moody is kinda broken, but it is unreliable. Sure, you can win games with it, but you gotta be lucky. They're frail too and whereas Smeargle can set Sticky Web (Which isn't too great to begin with), they don't have any alternatives other than Moody. The replays provided are just games where he did get lucky. Secondly, I think the Shedinja nomination is also stupid. It requires massive amount of support. Although it has been doing well on Shed-Stall teams, individually it doesn't really stand out you know. To add to that, it only checks a handful of pokémon. I'm suprised it got in VR in the first place really, because nearly all viable pokémon beat it, some of the pokémon Shedinja is supposed to check can run a move that beats it, e.g. Hidden Power Rock Xerneas. To add to that, hazards also doesn't make its life any easier. Next, Mega Gengar for S is a no for me. It doesn't really define the meta as much as Mega Rayquaza does. It also doesn't pack much variety in sets, making it somewhat predictable. I find that A+ suits it much better than S. Lastly, to most of the people who want to make a post here. Think before you post. I'm tired of the amount of bullshit nominations lately. It might sound ironic coming from me, but seriously guys, stop making shitty nominations of which you know are very unlikely to get through.
 
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Megazard

Everything pans out
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More announcement stuff: We're bringing daily challenges back! These were pretty popular during the groupchat stage of the AG room and it'll operate something like this. Every day we have some sort of specific objective, something to do with tournaments, like winning the tour with Blaziken or something, with the challenges updating sometime around 10pm PST. Then anybody who does that can report it to one of the roomstaff (driver and up) and we'll report it on this fancy google doc where you can view how many wins you have. Every week the winner will have their names reported in the intro. This doubles as a fun challenge and also incentive to test out some of those TBD ranks, since many of them will be appearing in the challenges and any cool replays could be shared here to help rank them or discussed in the AG ladder thread. If all auth happen to be away when the tour is over and nobody is there to report it, you can just VM me with replay proof and I'll add you in later. As the prize, the winner for the week will get their name in the roomintro. Special thanks to Cryptis for getting us to restart these + all the other room staff that helped and good luck to everyone participating!

oh and if you have an idea for a challenge just VM me/chloe or PM on smogon so we dont get 7000 random posts whenever someone thinks it up thanks
 

Chloe

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I just want to clarify, when I stated my proposal as if it was a compromise, the only reason I had described it as one is because both sides had valid points, that were being held back by a factor yet to be discussed. Now that we actually have a reason not to implement an S- Rank, it makes sense about why the debate was needed in the first place. Unfortunately, I've been quite busy recently with a lot of stuff so I haven't been able to test as much as I would've liked; however, I still have the prior knowledge to argue for and against the following.

Supporting ():
Shedinja to D Rank
This seems quite obvious due to the fact that even the users that were supporting the higher nomination in the first place had agreed that D was a much more suitable rank after the debate that occurred. DoW's argument sums up the majority of the reasoning behind the D rank being most suitable, and while I'd rather leave D rank Pokémon until we've figured out the higher ranks, I feel like we can all agree it's established a large enough place within the metagame to warrant a ranking. I'll update this soon, unless someone proposes a counter argument to the ranking of Shedinja within the next few days.

Refuting (X):
Smeargle to B+/B Rank
I almost fell off my chair when I saw Smeargle for B+ Rank. It's a niche Pokémon at best that provides an essential role on a single, arguably niche playstyle, which can be torn apart by so many potent threats. I regret having Smeargle and Espeon so high prior to the revamp because Baton Pass is such an unreliable and often ineffective playstyle with so many answers. While the Ubers Viability Rankings chooses not to rank these Pokémon, we do, because of how potent it is within the AG metagame with the removal of the Moody and Evasion clauses. To analyse how high we rank these Pokémon, it's important to realise how paramount this playstyle is to the AG metagame and how effective it is within the current metagame. Add this to Megazard's prior argument of how inefficient these Pokémon are, due to their high luck dependency, and you realise Smeargle just isn't the B+/B Rank Pokémon you make it out to be.

Glalie to B Rank
will add arguments later
Just add the earlier arguments on this page to what I'm about to say. wtf drake? "Most people believe Glalie is completely based on luck", "But I disagree. I argue it wins when it gets Speed, respective defense depending on opposing Pokémon or Evasion." This would've made some sense if you didn't contradict yourself in the first sentence. "3/6" is actually 3/7, you're more likely not to get a desirable boost first turn equating to less likely to actually put in any work whatsoever. You fail to mention how a drop on Speed or the respective defense is quite detrimental in total. You fail to realise it's 1/3 the chance not 1/2 the chance to get a simultaneous Protect. You don't realise that the checks and counters you list aren't even required if it doesn't get super lucky, Arceus, Mega Rayquaza, Primal Groudon, Xerneas, Darkrai beat post Protect assuming it doesn't get Speed or Evasion + avoiding on the 1.67. This Pokémon relies solely on luck, and I fail to see how anyone could believe it deserves B rank unless they've obtained terrible luck every time they've faced it.

~

ALSO important announcement regarding the AG room. The challenges have been extended to three day periods to allow for players to build properly without rushing, and have the chance to play in a tournament within this cycle. The user who completes the most challenges within a month gets their name mentioned within the room introduction. This was done after multiple complaints that a day wasn't long enough to build a proper team and test a Pokémon adequately. Thanks for your feedback!
 
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Alright, I was able to play around a lot with this thing in the daily challenge period, so I'm ready to nominate it.
Aegislash
to C+

Lots of people believe that all Aegislash can do is provide a hard counter to fairy-type Pokemon. This is extremely wrong. To sum up quickly, I've outlined some of the main aspects to Aegislash. These will all be explained.
-Hard Counter to Fairys
-Not as passive as people think
-Very few nice switch-ins
-Varied possible sets, unpredictability

-Hard counter to Fairys-duh. Ok, Aegislash-Shield, assuming the stock-standard stall-ish set, carries Toxic, Gyro Ball, good typing vs Fairy and high defenses. This means that no Fairy likes to stay in on it. This includes a set-up Geoxern, which Aegislash can tank a hit from and then proceed to KO with either Gyro Ball, or Gyro Ball+Shadow Sneak. It treats Fairyceus even worse, as it can tank an Earth Power before retaliating with a strong Gyro Ball+Shadow Sneak. This assumes the stally set. With the Banded set, Gyro Ball picks up heavy damage/OHKO. Still, nothing to be laughed at.
-Not as passive as people think-Most people assume that Aegislash only carries one viable set. Wrong. Introducing below Antacool's Offensive Aegislash:
Haxcalibur (Aegislash) @ Choice Band
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Head Smash
- Shadow Sneak​
This Aegislash hits with ridiculous power. Nothing likes coming in on this, not even Pdon, who doesn't have the recovery to just heal off what damage it takes. Gyro Ball does absurd amounts of damage when Aegislash has been paralyzed, but still hits respectably hard without it. Here are some calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 382-451 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 297-349 (71.3 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Arceus-Ground: 321-378 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
Sacred Sword eats up any Steelceus, Ferro or whatever that thinks it can come in and sit pretty, being immune to Toxic. It OHKO's Mega Kangaroo, not relevant too much but still nice to know. Head Smash is an easy OHKO on Ho-Oh, who can usually switch in imperviously, and also takes out Yveltal and Salamence, which can both generally switch in without too much trouble. Shadow Sneak, with Band, revenge kills so much it's not funny. It does 55% to Espeed Ghostceus, can take out most weakened Espeed sweepers outside of Ekiller, OHKO's Mgar and does 40% to Timid POgre, which is very repectable. The point here is that, with the right set, Aegislash is far from passive. (I ran +1 over Band in the calcs because I'm lazy and a tortoise, it means Band.)
-Very few nice switch-ins-Really just building on the previous point, nothing likes switching into that sort of damage. Nothing. With the right predictions and plays and hopefully a little luck Aegislash can, in addition to being a major Geomancy detterant, pick up a few surprise KO's throughout a match, from revenge killing to hitting things on the switch.
-Varied possible sets-Apart from Arceus, I believe that Aegislash has one of the most varied sets that it can run, from an extremely passive stally one to an extremely aggresive 4-attacks one. This sets Aegislash apart from other Pokemon, who can simply be switched into because you know what it's running-Aegislash cannot be predicted nicely. At least, if this extremely viable offensive set was more commonly used, you can't switch into it safely.

So, seeing how cool Aegislash is, why isn't it at S+? Here are the reasons:
Awful Speed:It's slow as shit. It's not going to outspeed anything apart from Shuckle.
No Recovery:For a Pokemon that claims stall as one of it's best sets, it's very bad at it.
Warn down quickly:Really under the last point. In order to counter Xerneas it needs to be at high health, Rocks+Spikes can wear it down really quickly to a zone at which it can be Ko'ed.
Passive w/ orthodox sets:Unless you're creative and cool Aegislash is quite passive+easy to switch into. However, Toxic's still not nice to wear throughout a battle.

Well, that's it! Comment on how you feel about it, even if it's just to say you agree, comments mean a lot more than likes.
 
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Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
I have to disagree with Aegislash going to C+, that's too high imo.

-Hard Counter to Fairys
Agreed to just this, because it's the best geoxern counter i see.

-Not as passive as people think
I dont like the set you presented, i understand there are offensive variants of aegislash but what is choice band doing there?You mentioned how it creates diffuculities for mons to switch in, yes.But when they do, you can be the one in trouble.It's not that powerful in comparison to other ubers mons.Plus, you don't have King shield, which is such a useful move to safeguard aegislash (not always, but lowering physical attacks does help it).Shadow sneak is a good move to pick up kills on weaken mons but I dont think you can go 1v1 with any ghost types.

Also, you set is incapable of doing anything after recieving a burn from fairyceus, it's rare but still it makes you uneffective

+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 382-451 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 297-349 (71.3 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Arceus-Ground: 321-378 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
First off, where are you getting the "+1" from?Secondly, why did you mention paralyses in your calcs?So, you switch in vs t wave user called p don?Bad idea.
Secondly, aegislash does a lot less than the above calcs, here a clear example:

252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (64 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 63-75 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

-Very few nice switch-ins
Eh, stuffs can easily switch into (bar head smash) with a little bit of prediction, and I forgot to mention how slow aegi is.That means, half of the times you'll be mostly dead even before doing anything.Not to mention that bulky poisonceus can easily switch in on your and cripple you further with Will-o-wisp

-Varied possible sets-
I disagree.I do like you being innovative with aegi and running a CB set, but I dont think it can be anything more than a Ho-oh lure set plus you have no way of recovery.I think defensive variant of aegislash is the only mention we should give.Although, the defensive set isnt attractive at all but it does provide a pretty good geoxern check.

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 143-169 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery <-Even thunder cant 2ohko

Taking about the c+ ranks mons, I dont think Aegislash can be a part of it.The reasons are
  • Not impressive speed stats for a C+ mon,
  • lack of recovery (
    and
    gets wish while gene and ditto Do not, but they funtion more as revenge killers)
  • Loses to CM formes, like ghostceus
  • Mega gengar can easily trap and remove it while mega rayquaza can take any it to set up on it, hence it needs solid support to work against setup sweepers
I think a C/C- fits Aegislash more.
Since this is my first argument, please point out if I had said something wrong or irrelevant
 
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I have to disagree with Aegislash going to C+, that's too high imo.



Agreed to just this, because it's the best geoxern counter i see.



I dont like the set you presented, i understand there are offensive variants of aegislash but what is choice band doing there?You mentioned how it creates diffuculities for mons to switch in, yes.But when they do, you can be the one in trouble.It's not that powerful in comparison to other ubers mons.Plus, you don't have King shield, which is such a useful move to safeguard aegislash (not always, but lowering physical attacks does help it).Shadow sneak is a good move to pick up kills on weaken mons but I dont think you can go 1v1 with any ghost types.

Also, you set is incapable of doing anything after recieving a burn from fairyceus, it's rare but still it makes you uneffective



First off, where are you getting the "+1" from?Secondly, why did you mention paralyses in your calcs?So, you switch in vs t wave user called p don?Bad idea.
Secondly, aegislash does a lot less than the above calcs, here a clear example:

252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (64 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 63-75 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery


Eh, stuffs can easily switch into (bar head smash) with a little bit of prediction, and I forgot to mention how slow aegi is.That means, half of the times you'll be mostly dead even before doing anything.Not to mention that bulky poisonceus can easily switch in on your and cripple you further with Will-o-wisp


I disagree.I do like you being innovative with aegi and running a CB set, but I dont think it can be anything more than a Ho-oh lure set plus you have no way of recovery.I think defensive variant of aegislash is the only mention we should give.Although, the defensive set isnt attractive at all but it does provide a pretty good geoxern check.

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 143-169 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery <-Even thunder cant 2ohko

Taking about the c+ ranks mons, I dont think Aegislash can be a part of it.The reasons are
  • Not impressive speed stats for a C+ mon,
  • lack of recovery (
    and
    gets wish while gene and ditto Do not, but they funtion more as revenge killers)
  • Loses to CM formes, like ghostceus
  • Mega gengar can easily trap and remove it while mega rayquaza can take any it to set up on it, hence it needs solid support to work against setup sweepers
I think a C/C- fits Aegislash more.
Since this is my first argument, please point out if I had said something wrong or irrelevant
Alright, rebuttal time

Not as passive as people think-I'm willing to concede the majority of this point, I do believe that I over-represented Aegislash in this aspect, as it's not often that Aegislash can get paralyzed and the majority of Aegislash sets don't carry the relevant power. I also see that Aegislash would not be forcing much out at all. However, assuming that it is paralyzed, and assuming it does get the opportunity to attack, it does hit with significant power. That's not great, I know, but I think that it is C+ worthy.

Very few nice switch-ins-Yes, it has significant trouble forcing anything out in the first place in order to get an attack, but once it does, it hits with great strength. Once again, poor grounds here, very hard to switch something out, but if it can, it hits hard.

Varied Sets-Ok, here's the bulk of my counter-argument. While defensive Aegislash is probably more viable I do not believe that this is grounds on which to completely disregard an offensive set. Considering not only the power it brings but the surprise factor, as Yveltal/Ho-Oh frequently switches in on the standard Aegislash, I think that it can stand on its own as perhaps a less viable, but still useful set. Particularly due to the way this alternate set differs so drastically from the norm, I believe that this adds further viability, on sheer surprise factor+bad plays.

Comparision to other C+-I'll break this up into parts.
-Not impressive speed stats for a C+ mon-Not arguing on the basis of speed, anyone can see that Aegislash could be outran by a mildly agitated snail. However, Aegislash fits a very different role from the rest of the C+ers. Going through it-
Clefable In terms of the stall set, Clefable probably does better, having a kool ability. However, Aegislash doesn't have to worry about Toxic as much. Furthermore, Clefable has Moonblast, but no truly viable offensive set, whereas I hope I have proven by now that Aegislash, under the right opportunities, has the potential to be a very threatening physical threat. threatening threat don't laugh at me I'm tired.
Ditto Completely different mon, no way to compare the two.
Genesect Much better offensive potential, can also hit Darkrai nicely. Aegislash can't do half as well, but Genesect has no chance at running stall.
Jirachi Has semi-viable stall and hax sets and plays nicely with GeoXern. Aegislash does even better with GeoXern but doesn't have as good offensive sets.

All in all, through this comparison, Aegislash seems to be a really good fit into C+, as it performs in a similarly bad capacity to all of the other C+ers.

Loses to CMceus-Not going to contest this, it's true.
Mgar traps, Mray sets up on it-True for the defensive sets, but the offensiv one, taking that surprise factor I talked about, can flip this on it's head, with an OHKO on Mgar and dealing significant damage to Mray.

I hope I addressed everything in a semi-coherent way, just tell me about any clear wrongs or contradictions.
 
-Hard counter to Fairys-duh. Ok, Aegislash-Shield, assuming the stock-standard stall-ish set, carries Toxic, Gyro Ball, good typing vs Fairy and high defenses. This means that no Fairy likes to stay in on it. This includes a set-up Geoxern, which Aegislash can tank a hit from and then proceed to KO with either Gyro Ball, or Gyro Ball+Shadow Sneak. It treats Fairyceus even worse, as it can tank an Earth Power before retaliating with a strong Gyro Ball+Shadow Sneak. This assumes the stally set. With the Banded set, Gyro Ball picks up heavy damage/OHKO. Still, nothing to be laughed at.
-Not as passive as people think-Most people assume that Aegislash only carries one viable set. Wrong. Introducing below Antacool's Offensive Aegislash:
Haxcalibur (Aegislash) @ Choice Band
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Head Smash
- Shadow Sneak​
This Aegislash hits with ridiculous power. Nothing likes coming in on this, not even Pdon, who doesn't have the recovery to just heal off what damage it takes. Gyro Ball does absurd amounts of damage when Aegislash has been paralyzed, but still hits respectably hard without it. Here are some calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 382-451 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 297-349 (71.3 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Arceus-Ground: 321-378 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
Sacred Sword eats up any Steelceus, Ferro or whatever that thinks it can come in and sit pretty, being immune to Toxic. It OHKO's Mega Kangaroo, not relevant too much but still nice to know. Head Smash is an easy OHKO on Ho-Oh, who can usually switch in imperviously, and also takes out Yveltal and Salamence, which can both generally switch in without too much trouble. Shadow Sneak, with Band, revenge kills so much it's not funny. It does 55% to Espeed Ghostceus, can take out most weakened Espeed sweepers outside of Ekiller, OHKO's Mgar and does 40% to Timid POgre, which is very repectable. The point here is that, with the right set, Aegislash is far from passive. (I ran +1 over Band in the calcs because I'm lazy and a tortoise, it means Band.)
-Very few nice switch-ins-Really just building on the previous point, nothing likes switching into that sort of damage. Nothing. With the right predictions and plays and hopefully a little luck Aegislash can, in addition to being a major Geomancy detterant, pick up a few surprise KO's throughout a match, from revenge killing to hitting things on the switch.
-Varied possible sets-Apart from Arceus, I believe that Aegislash has one of the most varied sets that it can run, from an extremely passive stally one to an extremely aggresive 4-attacks one. This sets Aegislash apart from other Pokemon, who can simply be switched into because you know what it's running-Aegislash cannot be predicted nicely. At least, if this extremely viable offensive set was more commonly used, you can't switch into it safely.
I'm not opposed to AG/ being ranked in principle, but I think your vastly overselling it.
1. First off, Fairy Arceus and Mega Diancie exist. They can use WoW/Iron Def/Ep or Ep to take out any aegislash stupid enough to switch in.
3. I'd posit that things do, in fact, come in, such as Defensive PDon, Arceus Ground, regular Groudon, Giratina (252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 190-224 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), Lugia (roosts it off), Skarmory, other Aegislash, Cresselia, and Quagsire, while offense just straight up KOes it
I have to disagree with Aegislash going to C+, that's too high imo.



  • Mega gengar can easily trap and remove it while mega rayquaza can take any it to set up on it, hence it needs solid support to work against setup sweepers
GoS is right, fam: Aegislash cant be trapped by mgar.
Alright, rebuttal time

-Not impressive speed stats for a C+ mon-Not arguing on the basis of speed, anyone can see that Aegislash could be outran by a mildly agitated snail.
actually, magcargo is slower
While that's true, this was specifically in response to MGar trapping it.
 

Chloe

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Okay, so we have under two months to complete this so I'm going to give my input on a few of the TBD mons I've been testing recently.
Make yourself a Coffee to enjoy while you read this one~


Kangaskhan-Mega to C-/D:
- Offensive sets outclassed by Extreme Killer Arceus.
- Defensive sets aren't bulky enough to withstand pressure of most attackers.
- This renders Defensive the only logical set to run; however, still takes up mega slot.
- Outclassed by Chansey, Blissey, Alomomola and Clefable as Wish passer.
- Has higher damage output at a solid 200 each time (Seismic Toss), which gives it an acceptable niche.
- This damage isn't enough to 2HKO most prevalent threats within the metagame, and becomes excessively useless against anything that bears a recovery move.
- Loses 1v1 to all five S ranks, bar Xerneas depending on set and still requires predictions; however, this is only for the Offensive Kang set, which I've stated is outclassed by standard EK Arc.
- Pretty much no reason to use on any playstyle when superior megas work that aren't outclassed by so many things.


Aegislash to C/C-:
- Effective counter to Xerneas and Fairy Arceus; however, Jirachi and Poison Arceus perform this better.
- Required to King's Shield every second turn to achieve the bulk it requires to do this aforementioned task.
- Banded Aegislash sets remove any defensive utility it provides, therefore hindering its capability to counter the two threats listed above.
- Banded Aegislash seems to be the equivalent to Specs Deoxys-Attack in this regard, quite useless except this is literally the greatest set up fodder in the game if it mispredicts, at least Specs Deoxys-A isn't equal to forfeiting your opportunity to win.
- TheHungrySage: Not as passive as people think, here's a Banded set.
- Why do all the calcs show Aegislash as paralysed? Who in their right mind paralyses an Aegislash?
- You state it hits hard without, hmm.
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 382-451 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (66 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 169-199 (44.2 - 52%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
- Do you understand why this logic is flawed though? It literally requires paralysis to obtain these desirable calcs.

+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 297-349 (71.3 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Requires paralysis, doesn't take Multiscale into account, only hits 75% of the time because of Paralysis; adjusted calc:
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 198-233 (47.5 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hits 80% of the time, Lugia can stall out with Roost since Head Smash has low PP; however, if you opted for the move you stated:
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (51 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 51-60 (12.2 - 14.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Arceus-Ground: 321-378 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What is this Ground Arceus set? A frailer version of the Support set listed? + Paralysis again.
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (50 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 96-114 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO

+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
Why would anyone believe these calcs lol??!
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (34 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 30-36 (7.4 - 8.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
- Megaqwer was completely correct in saying what he said, yet Sage got three likes compared to Megaqwer getting one. Then you say you forfeit this point later on, yet it's like 90% of your entire post. :?
- That being said you also forfeit the next point, because it relies on things switching in (which they evidently can)
- "Varied possible sets" - throw this out the window too, it has one set that can sometimes run Pursuit > Toxic or Sacred Sword > Toxic; that's not really enough to cut it.
- So by getting rid of that one point, you've essentially thrown out all your arguments bar the first "A counter to fairies", which really isn't enough to justify C+ when much more useful Pokémon such as Jirachi and Clefable make up this rank.
- By the way, Sage. It's not called a rebuttal if you just concede all your points lol.

- Comparison to other C+ Pokémon:
- Clefable - Walls Arceus (EK and Plated), Darkrai, Yveltal and/or Xerneas depending on set; provides much needed Aromatherapy support, Wish, Access to Minimize and has more than one usable set. Also checks Mega Rayquaza, surviving Ascent even when Clefable has no investment in PhysDef.
- Ditto - Acts as a prevention for any setup sweepers, just having this in the back can be so useful. Blanket checks almost any offensive Pokémon. Has only one set, but as you said earlier "not comparable".
- Genesect - Great U-turn pivot, Access to nice coverage, Bug Buzz to check Darkrai, soft checks Xerneas, Reaches nice speed tier when equiped with a Scarf. Has access to Explosion which can OHKO Ho-Oh after acquiring the Attack boost. Variety of alternate Scarf sets it can run, but pretty monotonous in terms of amount of sets it can run since it's usually limited to Scarf.
- Jirachi - While it isn't necessarily as good at checking Xerneas as Aegislash, it provides enough utility to efficiently do so anyway. Enough = Xerneas doesn't require such a dedicated check in Aegislash. Jirachi can run an Offensive Scarf set or a Specially Defensive utility set. Access to Healing Wish, Trick, Thunder Wave. Serene Grace allows Jirachi to just become a nuisance as well; however, relying on flinches isn't an absolute necessity.
Compare this to Aegislash
- Aegislash - Walls fairy Pokémon, Toxic stalls somewhat decently, Niche Protect that allows Status to come through. Unlike others has access to set-up; however, still piss weak and can't OHKO anything at +2. (Shit defensive typing means this is a necessity).​
- Forget to mention how it loses to the other four S Ranks very easily, plus 4/5 A+ Ranks.
- Will-O-Wisp Fairyceus (the most common Fairyceus set...) pretty much hard checks Aegislash (assuming it hits).
- Clefable is slow enough to take less than half from Gyro, stalls out with Wish/Moonlight/Softboiled.
- TheHungrySage, speaking of essays; how's the Zekrom one coming along?


Blissey to C+:
- Walls the majority of Special attackers within the metagame (CM Arceus formes, Xerneas, Kyogre (Primal and non) and sometimes even Mega Gengar and Darkrai depending on the set.
- Access to Thunder Wave, Toxic, Wish, Soft-boiled, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, Seismic Toss, Natural Cure, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish (I guess?!?).
- Most effective Special wall in the metagame bar Ho-Oh and Lugia, as the former provides substantial offensive utility and the latter has incredible natural bulk when paired with an ability in Multiscale. Still these two are heavily crippled by status, while Blissey is not.
- Unlike other Special walls, isn't trapped and disfigured by PerishTrap Mega Gengar.
- Walls Klefki without any team support.
- Shakes off Klefki's status ailments thanks to Natural Cure and Confusion's non permanence.
- Unfortunately, held back by lack of Physical bulk and requirement to run Shed Shell.
- Opts for 248 HP / 252+ SpD set, which unfortunately is needed to survive 2x Primal Water Spout from full guaranteed.
- Here's a proper counter to fairies (bar Diancie) TheHungrySage :)
- Calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 265-313 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 338-398 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 301-355 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 220-261 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- 65.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 98-116 (13.7 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Iron Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 88-105 (12.3 - 14.7%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Iron Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 109-129 (15.2 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 79-94 (11 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 111-132 (15.5 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 146-173 (20.4 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 221-260 (30.9 - 36.4%) -- 65.7% chance to 3HKO​
- Replays:
vs HunterStorm (AG Tour Final)
vs Team RocketScience (AG Tour Semi-Final)
vs WhiteLion (AG Tour Round 3)
vs DoW (AG Minitour Semi-Final)
vs Naruto94 (AG Minitour Round 2)
vs AM (AG Minitour Round 3)
vs cuzzie (AG Tour Round 4)
vs Rayzark (AG Tour Round 1)
vs Donno (OM Frontier)
vs Megaqwer (OM Frontier)​
- Also because of the increasing rarity of Taunt / Perish Song Mega Gengar within the metagame, would it be a bright idea to rank Chansey as well? Ubers have done it for reasons that also make sense here, and while I don't like comparing our metagame to Ubers, or basing our ranking decisions based off Ubers; I believe ranking Chansey truly makes sense especially with the way the current metagame is going. TBD fine?


Greninja to D/Unranked:
- Subpar Toxic Spikes setter
- While it carries with it a pleasant offensive movepool and presence, its lack of bulk doesn't allow it to survive much, usually setting one spike.
- Carries Taunt to prevent Stealth Rock setup from Primal Groudon and whatnot; however, is outclassed by Cloyster in almost every way.
- Scolipede and Tentacruel are also more potent than Greninja, as they can actually take hits / deal damage.
- While Greninja has a nice attack stat and coverage, it is OHKOd by the most common Pokémon in the metagame, while loses 1v1 to the other four S Ranks.​
- Protean borderline useless in AG, especially for a Pokémon that is only used as a Toxic Spikes setter.
- Has access to bad typing priority in Water Shuriken, and while Shadow Sneak is nice, it's just too weak when considering Greninja's lowish Attack stat (when compared to other Pokémon within the metagame).
- There's almost no reason to use this over other Toxic Spikes users.


Shaymin-Sky to C:
- Only real comparison is Jirachi as the two perform quite similar roles.
- Weak to most common move in the metagame, Extreme Speed, while Jirachi resists it.
- Has access to Leech Seed, and hence can abuse SubSeed sets, but then again is too weak to the omnipresent priority to function efficiently.
- Jirachi has access to Trick, and can run a few viable sets, so can Shaymin-Sky however.
- Jirachi is a check to Fairies, while Shaymin-Sky doesn't really check anything.
- Relies on flinching to succeed, Jirachi isn't this monotonous in its functionality.
- Jirachi has access to Thunder Wave to gain Speed control it needs to make up for Speed difference, while has the bulk and typing to actually do something.
- Jirachi's flinchy flinchy doesn't miss.
- While the majority of this argument is outlining the flaws Skymin has in comparison to Jirachi, a solo argument could be made just off of how weak it is to priority.
- 2/5 S Ranks run Priority on 95% of their sets, 1/5 runs a Scarf set almost 50% of the time that OHKOs this, the other two just win if Air Slash doesn't flinch or misses. (By using usage to support this argument, the five S ranks are also the five most used Pokémon in AG)
- Like this thing just dies first turn 40% of the time if an opponent decides to take their chances.
- Support it if you will, I'm not good at arguing about this Pokémon.
- TL;DR: Jirachi is a check for fairies and rocks while being able to flinchy flinchy, Shaymin-Sky is just a flinchy flinchy mon.


Arceus-Grass to D:
- Checks Primal Kyogre + Water Arceus + Ground Arceus + Primal Groudon if it isn't running Fire Punch / Plume / Eruption
- Soft check for Smeargle (because no one runs Dark Void)
- Can lure Ho-Oh I guess? but then you're required to run 144 Atk EVs to always OHKO and that doesn't allow Grassceus to take 2 Ice Beams.
- Absorbs powder moves / leech seed lol? This makes it a Ferrothorn check if it runs Fire coverage I guess.
- But it's bad, because defensive typing and almost useless in most cases.
- Somewhat outclassed by Lati formes even.
- Has anyone even used this seriously? I don't see a reason why anyone would.


Palkia to C-/D:
- Awful offensive typing, awful defensive typing
- Suboptimal offensive and defensive stats.
- Checks Kyogre, and that's it!
- Loses to all five S ranks 1v1
- Positive for once: Scares away Mega Rayquaza pre-Mega, as well as providing a somewhat nice offensive presence (if I'm being generous).
- Primal Groudon / Xerneas / Arc-Fairy prevalence just makes this thing's life hell.
- All three can switchin and OHKO while Palkia can't barely do anything in return.​
- Oh I found another Pokémon Grass Arceus can check :P
- There's no threat within the metagame in which this Pokémon can capitalise off of, it just does a poor job against anything really.
- It sucks, why do I need to argue for this?
- I don't have a proper argument for Palkia I admit, I was kind of exhausted after writing the rest of this post. I just want to hurry the obvious things up so we have stuff to base other nominations off / we can finish on time.

thanks for reading!!
n_n
 
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Aegislash to C/C-:
- Effective counter to Xerneas and Fairy Arceus; however, Jirachi and Poison Arceus perform this better.
- Required to King's Shield every second turn to achieve the bulk it requires to do this aforementioned task.
- Banded Aegislash sets remove any defensive utility it provides, therefore hindering its capability to counter the two threats listed above.
- Banded Aegislash seems to be the equivalent to Specs Deoxys-Attack in this regard, quite useless except this is literally the greatest set up fodder in the game if it mispredicts, at least Specs Deoxys-A isn't equal to forfeiting your opportunity to win.
- TheHungrySage: Not as passive as people think, here's a Banded set.
- Why do all the calcs show Aegislash as paralysed? Who in their right mind paralyses an Aegislash?
- You state it hits hard without, hmm.
+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 382-451 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (66 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 169-199 (44.2 - 52%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
- Do you understand why this logic is flawed though? It literally requires paralysis to obtain these desirable calcs.

+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 297-349 (71.3 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Requires paralysis, doesn't take Multiscale into account, only hits 75% of the time because of Paralysis; adjusted calc:
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 198-233 (47.5 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hits 80% of the time, Lugia can stall out with Roost since Head Smash has low PP; however, if you opted for the move you stated:
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (51 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 51-60 (12.2 - 14.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Arceus-Ground: 321-378 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What is this Ground Arceus set? A frailer version of the Support set listed? + Paralysis again.
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (50 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 96-114 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO

+1 252+ Atk Paralyzed Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
Why would anyone believe these calcs lol??!
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (34 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 30-36 (7.4 - 8.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
- Megaqwer was completely correct in saying what he said, yet Sage got three likes compared to Megaqwer getting one. Then you say you forfeit this point later on, yet it's like 90% of your entire post. :?
- That being said you also forfeit the next point, because it relies on things switching in (which they evidently can)
- "Varied possible sets" - throw this out the window too, it has one set that can sometimes run Pursuit > Toxic or Sacred Sword > Toxic; that's not really enough to cut it.
- So by getting rid of that one point, you've essentially thrown out all your arguments bar the first "A counter to fairies", which really isn't enough to justify C+ when much more useful Pokémon such as Jirachi and Clefable make up this rank.
- By the way, Sage. It's not called a rebuttal if you just concede all your points lol.

- Comparison to other C+ Pokémon:
- Clefable - Walls Arceus (EK and Plated), Darkrai, Yveltal and/or Xerneas depending on set; provides much needed Aromatherapy support, Wish, Access to Minimize and has more than one usable set. Also checks Mega Rayquaza, surviving Ascent even when Clefable has no investment in PhysDef.
- Ditto - Acts as a prevention for any setup sweepers, just having this in the back can be so useful. Blanket checks almost any offensive Pokémon. Has only one set, but as you said earlier "not comparable".
- Genesect - Great U-turn pivot, Access to nice coverage, Bug Buzz to check Darkrai, soft checks Xerneas, Reaches nice speed tier when equiped with a Scarf. Has access to Explosion which can OHKO Ho-Oh after acquiring the Attack boost. Variety of alternate Scarf sets it can run, but pretty monotonous in terms of amount of sets it can run since it's usually limited to Scarf.
- Jirachi - While it isn't necessarily as good at checking Xerneas as Aegislash, it provides enough utility to efficiently do so anyway. Enough = Xerneas doesn't require such a dedicated check in Aegislash. Jirachi can run an Offensive Scarf set or a Specially Defensive utility set. Access to Healing Wish, Trick, Thunder Wave. Serene Grace allows Jirachi to just become a nuisance as well; however, relying on flinches isn't an absolute necessity.
Compare this to Aegislash
- Aegislash - Walls fairy Pokémon, Toxic stalls somewhat decently, Niche Protect that allows Status to come through. Unlike others has access to set-up; however, still piss weak and can't OHKO anything at +2. (Shit defensive typing means this is a necessity).​
- Forget to mention how it loses to the other four S Ranks very easily, plus 4/5 A+ Ranks.
- Will-O-Wisp Fairyceus (the most common Fairyceus set...) pretty much hard checks Aegislash (assuming it hits).
- Clefable is slow enough to take less than half from Gyro, stalls out with Wish/Moonlight/Softboiled.
- TheHungrySage, speaking of essays; how's the Zekrom one coming along?
n_n
I give up, Megaqwer actually rebutted everything really well, nobody noticed though. Aegislash is an awful Pokemon, not even a wall of strangely skewed calcs could make it look good.
 

Josh

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Agree with all of that, especially unranking Greninja. However, I'd like to go one step further and say Unrank Kangaroo. It is not viable in AG. We've established its offensive set is outclassed by ekiller and its support set is outclassed by other fat shit. In Ubers its not great but with the limit of 1 Arceus it can still find its way onto team when people wanna run some other arc, but not here. I have not seen this mon used once in a tour game or even in a good rmt, EVER. I get its an uber but its not viable and there's no reason to pollute our vr with it.
 

Chloe

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Okay, after discussion with fellow council members and taking into consideration what's happened in the thread recently, we've gone through with the following changes.
Code:
Aegislash: TBD to C-
Arceus-Grass: TBD to D
Blissey: TBD to C+
Greninja: TBD to Unranked
Kangaskhan-Mega: TBD to Unranked
Klefki: A+ to A
Palkia: TBD to D
Shaymin-Sky: TBD to C
More discussion on Glalie, Mega Gengar and Smeargle would be appreciated.
The Groudon-Primal / Xerneas movement didn't reach a decision either.

Remember these decisions aren't final and can be moved, so if you're unhappy with a change or placement, please speak up!
Continue to discuss. :x
 

Josh

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Blissey and Chansey should be same rank imo. It's basically trading 1 matchup (mgar) for every mon mgar team, which leaves them about equal. There's also the fact chansey is actually a kyogre answer, and specs/primal are devastating stall breakers atm. This debate comes up all the time but there really is a fairly large bulk difference so the mgar matchup isn't always worth it. I could see them both up in the B ranks somewhere but let's see what you guys rank other stuff at first. Don't forget sm is soon and this should be finalized by then.

The answer to pdon and xern is simple. Drop everything a rank and make them sole a+ or with whatever people nom, or leave them s. Do not create s- or a+. The decision is on you guys, we've expressed thoughts.
 
C+ -> B-

I'm nominating Jirachi for B- rank. While it might seem bad on paper, Jirachi is a surprisingly decent Pokemon due to its ability and moveset. In particular, Jirachi's Choice Scarf set is very good for causing Pokemon to flinch and for outspeeding and KOing Choice Scarf Xerneas, as well as living a hit from GeoXern and KOing it in return. Jirachi also has an advantage over other Choice Scarf Steel-types like Genesect by having more bulk, Speed, and a better typing at the cost of less Attack. Jirachi can use Trick to cripple Pokemon by locking them into moves that its teammates take advantage of, such as locking a Pokemon into Earthquake and switching into Mega Rayquaza to let it set up. It can also run Healing Wish to fully heal one of its teammates when it is low on health with little risk due to Choice Scarf letting it outspeed most everything. U-turn lets Jirachi pivot into more useful teammates, regardless of the situation that it is in. Finally, Jirachi's Iron Head is better than that of Genesect's because of the boost that it gets from Serene Grace, allowing it to cause the foe to flinch almost to death. Unlike other Choice Scarf Steel-types, Jirachi also isn't limited to the four aforementioned moves, meaning that it has near-unlimited possibilities to perform various roles.



-----------------------------------


also join my tour: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/there-goes-anything-goes-signups.3583501/
 

Josh

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Lol you literally just splurted facts about Rachi out. This is a rank nom, not a mini analysis ft. lots of exaggeration. Actually say what made it get better or worse. But I'd really like the ranks to be more complete, nomming stuff rn doesn't work well because there's no points of reference. :/
 
Lol you literally just splurted facts about Rachi out. This is a rank nom, not a mini analysis ft. lots of exaggeration. Actually say what made it get better or worse. But I'd really like the ranks to be more complete, nomming stuff rn doesn't work well because there's no points of reference. :/
you obviously dont know how noms work either. nomming a pokemon up or down a rank all depends on facts about said pokemon that put it above other or at the same rank as or below certain pokemon. so if you want to go ahead and deny my nom, try "splurting" out facts about why jirachi shouldnt move up instead of trying to make this a personal attack about how i dont know how to do this.
 

Josh

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Jesus christ why are you getting so defensive and whiny, "a personal attack" literally made me lol. Stop playing the victim. Do you want me to list all of the things that beat jirachi? Because based on your nom stating facts is a reason for stuff to rise. This isn't a personal attack but all that post shouts is that you don't know how to nom properly. Stating that jirachi outspeeds xerneas with a choice scarf does not attest to its viability because it's always been able to do that. Actually compare it to stuff if you're going to ignore meta trends: I'd argue it is actually the worst thing in c+ except for maybe ditto. Clefable and genesect are rare genuine answers to darkrai while both offer other positives too, the former being a great ekiller and support arc answer for bulkier teams while the latter is arguably the best darkrai counter for offense while also having a strong u-turn. (Bliss/Chans)ey is a critical part of stall as the staple special wall and glue, while making a great cote with Tina. Everyomr knows what ditto does. Jirachi is not bad, but I certainly don't see at better than these things and if anything it's actually worse now because it does little against bulkier teams past hopefully tricking something. The stuff in b- is all much better except deo-s which could drop because it's bad.

And seriously, stop playing the victim jfc I replied to a shitty nom, I didn't egg your mom's car
 
Jesus christ why are you getting so defensive and whiny, "a personal attack" literally made me lol. Stop playing the victim. Do you want me to list all of the things that beat jirachi? Because based on your nom stating facts is a reason for stuff to rise. This isn't a personal attack but all that post shouts is that you don't know how to nom properly. Stating that jirachi outspeeds xerneas with a choice scarf does not attest to its viability because it's always been able to do that. Actually compare it to stuff if you're going to ignore meta trends: I'd argue it is actually the worst thing in c+ except for maybe ditto. Clefable and genesect are rare genuine answers to darkrai while both offer other positives too, the former being a great ekiller and support arc answer for bulkier teams while the latter is arguably the best darkrai counter for offense while also having a strong u-turn. (Bliss/Chans)ey is a critical part of stall as the staple special wall and glue, while making a great cote with Tina. Everyomr knows what ditto does. Jirachi is not bad, but I certainly don't see at better than these things and if anything it's actually worse now because it does little against bulkier teams past hopefully tricking something. The stuff in b- is all much better except deo-s which could drop because it's bad.

And seriously, stop playing the victim jfc I replied to a shitty nom, I didn't egg your mom's car
Okay my bad for not doing this before. I ran the nom by Chloe and she said it was fine. Lol I didn't know any better there was no need for you to be an asshead. Don't tell me to not play victim when i wasn't in the first place. You were calling out my nom in a half-assed way that focused more on the fact that I was new to this and how to prove me wrong instead of actually informing me on how to do it in a polite manner and not being psychotic.

If you would argue that Jirachi is arguably the worst C+, then you need to get your brain checked. Ditto is worse yes, but what does Genesect? The same role with less chance to flinch? Cool it gets Extreme Speed and Jirachi doesn't, but what does that have to do with anything? My bad for being new to nominating something, honestly, but no need for you to be a genuine asshole. Now that you've clarified this to me in a very condescending way, I'll elaborate more.

The Niche Scarf Genesect, while still being able to outspeed most Scarf Xern, is more frail and loses to GeoXern. its 20 higher base Attack is more helpful yes, but its ability is very difficult to play around considering some Xern sets run higher defense just to boost Genesect's wrong stat. What else is there? Choice Band Genesect? lol. That hits a lot harder yes, but it cannot do nearly as much crippling to the same Pokemon that Jirachi does. Yes Jirachi outspeeds Scarf Xerneas. What else though? Not only does it outspeed, it leaves it almost incapable of attacking because even if Xerneas lives an Iron Head from Jirachi, it will most likely flinch and be rendered useless. This is something Genesect has a tough time doing. Why are you comparing Jirachi to Chansey/Blissey? They perform entirely separate roles. They are used as walls and can easily stall out something, whereas Jirachi is used more offensively to cripple most attackers severely. Again, Clefable does something different. Yes, Clefable is a __rare__ answer to Darkrai, but it needs to run a niche Flame Orb set with no recovery outside of Soft-Boiled to function, and Jirachi doesn't need to rely on passive recovery or anything of the like. A lot of times, I don't even see Darkrai up against a Jirachi unless Darkrai has a sub up and Jirachi is U-turning out, or when there is no Sub up and Jirachi forces out Darkrai. Genesect, by the way, is a mediocre-at-best Ekiller. It is outclassed as an EKiller by Mega Rayquaza and Arceus, a Scarf Steel-type by Jirachi, and a Choice Band user again by Mega Rayquaza and Ho-Oh. Yesm Ho-Oh and Genesect are barely similar, but that doesnt factor out the fact that it is outclassed in a lot of its roles besides a pivotal Bug-type, in which it is the only Pokemon that is half-viable in AG to do that.

Scarf Jirachi can revenge kill MMY very easily, never goes in on Groudon, is obvious in what it does against Poisonceus, and yeah Deo-S sucks. So I hope this elaborated everything more. I introduced opinion, more knowledge, and a bit of everything i appeared to be lacking. Just don't call me the victim again Josh. That was a pathetic play on your part ant you know it.
 
Jirachi is offense's best check to Xern IMO. It can reliably switch in on the standard 44 Speed Xerneas, which many people still run, and flinch it down. It fits well on offense, providing momentum in U-Turn, stall breaking potential in Trick, and support in Healing Wish and Thunder Wave. I would argue that it is as good a check to Xerneas as Giratina-O is to Primal Don. Giratina can come in and get rid of the rocks that PDon has just set up, and proceed to phase it or status it and then Hex it down. Jirachi can also come in on Xern after it sets up, and proceed to paralyze it or flinch it down. It can be EVd to live a Focus Blast after SR, and this doesn't affect it's stats too much as it isn't really muscling through much, it is just flinching things down. Now, I wouldn't say that Rachi is a B+ mon, as Gira-O has much more utility, but I would say that the ability to check an S(?) rank so easily warrants a bit higher than a C+. Obviously you can argue that Xern is capable of running more speed, but ~25% of Xerns run 44 Speed or less, and that isn't accounting for the 58% of Xerns not counted as popular enough spreads in the Usage Stats. The two most common spreads call for very little speed, allowing an unprepared opponent to be caught off guard. Even if the opponent does carry more speed, so long as you don't switch into a Focus Blast, you can still paralyze the Xern. One last thing that has to be taken into account is the fact that only ~38% of Xerns actually run Focus Blast, so you are beating 60% right off the bat. Jirachi is a great support mon, and it's biggest attraction is it's ability to just shit on Xern. I agree with Kris' nom for B-.

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 64 SpD Jirachi: 271-319 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

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