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Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
Shaymin from B- to -> C+
In my opinion, I honestly dont think shaymin needs B-.While other B rank pokemons have certain roles to set Rocks/screen etc.Shaymin's only role is depended on flinches, and almost anything can take it out easily with one hit as it lacks Defense and special defense stats.While, it outspeeds darkrai , maybe even annoying it with serene grace + air slash, but shaymin still loses to a darkrai behind sub and gets beaten by mewtwo very easily.Although it has access to leech seed and healing wish, they arent that helpful most of them games.Finally, it has a bad time vs Ekillers.

Edit:Mega mewtwo X from B+ > B
MMX is one of the best pokemon to deal with arceus, still it is unable to break through common pokemons like Giratina and primal groudon.Non taunt variants loses to lugia.Many pokemons like fairy arceus/xerneas can easily switch in vs it and kill it.The fact that it can do anything much to giratina,lugia or fairy types unless it carries ice punch or iron tail.Well....it does have a reliable recovery in "recover" but it still gets crippled by any statuses and the fact that it takes up a mega slot to work as a good mon.While it has it's niche but B+ looks to high, so I ask a drop from B+ > B
 
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Mega Tyranitar from D to -> C+

Mega TTar is an absolute offense breaker. Hyper Offense just doesn't have a good check. They closest thing it has is support PDon, and that is 2HKOd on the switchin after rocks. The only support Mega TTar needs is rocks, and fodder to kill off to bring it in, although it can often just come in for free. At +1 with rocks up, Mega TTar OHKOs Offense. Bulky Offense struggles as well, often not having many dedicated walls, and the walls it does have, such as Fairyceus and Skarmory, are 2HKOd after rocks. If allowed to set up, it can even get kills vs. Balance, 2HKOing the likes of Giratina. Overall, MTTar is a solid mon, requiring some support to pull off. I personally think it deserves even better things, but I won't push it for now.

Offensive Calcs

+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 398-470 (104.1 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 289-342 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 193-228 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 256-303 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 434-512 (95.3 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Arceus-Fairy: 211-249 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 296-350 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Defensive Calcs
+6 0 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 276-325 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 190-224 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 242-286 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 56-66 (16.4 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Chloe

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Viability Update: August 14th.

B- to C+
C+ to C
Unranked to D
While I somewhat agree with this nomination, your argument lacked substance. "It loses to Giratina", when it has options to parry that; "it loses to Lugia without Taunt" - which isn't completely true. "But it still gets crippled by any status", when it can ward off both of these with Taunt or Substitute; and it's still bulky enough to put in work post paralysis against Extreme Killer, Steel Arceus and other Pokémon that it checks. The only status condition that definitely plagues it is Burn, a status MMX struggles to obtain initially. Of course, it struggles from 4MSS; however, depending on the roles the team members already play, it can remedy this issue with appropriate team support. It also doesn't achieve much even after a Bulk Up, struggles to OHKO Arceus pre-Bulk Up unless running Low Kick, which then struggles from a lack of recovery. This doesn't fit the role description of a B+ pokémon regardless, and based off your other points I'm just going to move it. B+ to B

In regards to other nominations:

Council wants replays :L. I want this moved as badly as you but calcs just aren't suffice especially with the lack of support from any user on these recent nominations.
Arbitrary arguments about Mega Rayquaza outclassing, while the set listed did provide advantages over Mega Rayquaza, it still lacks a reason to use it over Mega Rayquaza. If your team is weak to status, try Lum Berry Mega Rayquaza. Less efficient against many threats and whatnot. I didn't solely refute my own argument, I swear.

If someone makes a nomination, feel free to provide support. How are we supposed to gauge the general consensus if the only posts are people making nominations.
As always, feel free to make nominations; but also feel free to support/refute arguments as well ;~;
 
Nominating
A → B+

I think Mega Diancie is ranked way too high. Even though Giratina's usage has drastically raised, Klefki and Lugia for example aren't as common as it used to be in Anything Goes. Almost every viable Arceus form can switch in and deal with it. The lack of recovery isn't nice for it either, it gets chipped down every time it comes in by Pokémon such as Darkrai and Yveltal. To add to that, its typing also means it can't be hard switched in on many things, usually risking Earthquakes, etc. All this doesn't mean it's a bad pokémon, but I think A rank is too high for it. If you(the council) think B+ is too low, consider A- as well.
Usage July 2015
| 6 | Klefki | 25.63585% | 47255 | 6.061% | 24858 | 5.044% |
| 10 | Lugia | 14.92209% | 33209 | 4.260% | 19316 | 3.920% |
| 35 | Giratina | 2.58633% | 6190 | 0.794% | 3823 | 0.776% |

Usage July 2016
| 6 | Klefki | 20.19794% | 64076 | 5.861% | 32948 | 4.899% |
| 12 | Lugia | 11.84526% | 41833 | 3.826% | 24735 | 3.678% |
| 14 | Giratina | 10.65583% | 11884 | 1.087% | 7714 | 1.147% |

Calcs
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 156-184 (40.9 - 48.2%)
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 62-73 (25.7 - 30.2%)
0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 89-105 (36.9 - 43.5%)
 
I would suggest putting articuno into this ranking, as it has a mind reader + sheer cold combo that forces all pokemon that cannot kill it out, giving it a free turn to land a sheer cold on the pokemon that switches in. Sheer cold also has a 30% chance to hit a pokemon just by itself, and articuno switches into a pokemon that cannot kill it it means that articuno can also just use sheer cold to risk a 30% chance. Furthermore, articuno is really bulky and can take hits and fire off a second sheer cold. Here are some calculations:

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Articuno: 276-326 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Articuno: 296-352 (77 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Articuno: 297-351 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Articuno: 231-273 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Articuno: 286-339 (74.6 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Articuno: 280-330 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And two sheer colds in a row and at least hitting one of them has a high chance of 56%, which isnt too bad considering getting haxed by klefki and not being able to move (counting both confusion and paralysis) also only results in a 62.5%.


Another playstyle that is viable can be snow cloak + double team, which gives it the best evasion in the whole game as well as a never-miss blizzard and a focus sash/sturdy breaker. Articuno also have some great offensive presence that does make the enemy have headaches beating it, and here are the calculations (again):

0 SpA Articuno Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 117-138 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
(which basically means mega diancie have to risk for a non-perfect accuracy move diamond storm to hit in at most two tries against who knows how many evasion boost there are)
0 SpA Articuno Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 228-270 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(not sure if rayquaza wants to switch in)
0 SpA Articuno Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 124-147 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage
(not sure if darkrai can switch into anything anyways lol)

So from these calculations its easy to see that to be able to switch in a boosted articuno is actually quite hard, most times you cannot send your revenge killer on, but have to risk your strongest pokemon into an accuracy battle (sheer cold) in order to kill it once it got some evasion boosts.

At last, articuno is a deadly counter to baton pass teams. With each pass you get a 30 percent chance to be killed, not counting the fact that articuno can also choose to use mind reader and force you out if you are slower, breaking your pass or if you are faster, forcing you to pass without getting any boost in that round.

As a conclusion, although articuno is not a perfect reliable pokemon as most others, it is really powerful against a lot of teams and it rarely becomes dead weight.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
I would suggest putting articuno into this ranking, as it has a mind reader + sheer cold combo that forces all pokemon that cannot kill it out, giving it a free turn to land a sheer cold on the pokemon that switches in. Sheer cold also has a 30% chance to hit a pokemon just by itself, and articuno switches into a pokemon that cannot kill it it means that articuno can also just use sheer cold to risk a 30% chance. Furthermore, articuno is really bulky and can take hits and fire off a second sheer cold. Here are some calculations:

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Articuno: 276-326 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Articuno: 296-352 (77 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Articuno: 297-351 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Articuno: 231-273 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Articuno: 286-339 (74.6 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Articuno: 280-330 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And two sheer colds in a row and at least hitting one of them has a high chance of 56%, which isnt too bad considering getting haxed by klefki and not being able to move (counting both confusion and paralysis) also only results in a 62.5%.


Another playstyle that is viable can be snow cloak + double team, which gives it the best evasion in the whole game as well as a never-miss blizzard and a focus sash/sturdy breaker. Articuno also have some great offensive presence that does make the enemy have headaches beating it, and here are the calculations (again):

0 SpA Articuno Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 117-138 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
(which basically means mega diancie have to risk for a non-perfect accuracy move diamond storm to hit in at most two tries against who knows how many evasion boost there are)
0 SpA Articuno Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 228-270 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(not sure if rayquaza wants to switch in)
0 SpA Articuno Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 124-147 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage
(not sure if darkrai can switch into anything anyways lol)

So from these calculations its easy to see that to be able to switch in a boosted articuno is actually quite hard, most times you cannot send your revenge killer on, but have to risk your strongest pokemon into an accuracy battle (sheer cold) in order to kill it once it got some evasion boosts.

At last, articuno is a deadly counter to baton pass teams. With each pass you get a 30 percent chance to be killed, not counting the fact that articuno can also choose to use mind reader and force you out if you are slower, breaking your pass or if you are faster, forcing you to pass without getting any boost in that round.

As a conclusion, although articuno is not a perfect reliable pokemon as most others, it is really powerful against a lot of teams and it rarely becomes dead weight.
Articuno is a bad gimmick. It doesn't beat BP teams reliably because they will carry Substitute on basically everything, and thus be able to stall out your Sheer Cold PP. I don't think it is worthy of a rank.
 
Nominating
A → B+

I think Mega Diancie is ranked way too high. Even though Giratina's usage has drastically raised, Klefki and Lugia for example aren't as common as it used to be in Anything Goes. Almost every viable Arceus form can switch in and deal with it. The lack of recovery isn't nice for it either, it gets chipped down every time it comes in by Pokémon such as Darkrai and Yveltal. To add to that, its typing also means it can't be hard switched in on many things, usually risking Earthquakes, etc. All this doesn't mean it's a bad pokémon, but I think A rank is too high for it. If you(the council) think B+ is too low, consider A- as well.
Usage July 2015
| 6 | Klefki | 25.63585% | 47255 | 6.061% | 24858 | 5.044% |
| 10 | Lugia | 14.92209% | 33209 | 4.260% | 19316 | 3.920% |
| 35 | Giratina | 2.58633% | 6190 | 0.794% | 3823 | 0.776% |

Usage July 2016
| 6 | Klefki | 20.19794% | 64076 | 5.861% | 32948 | 4.899% |
| 12 | Lugia | 11.84526% | 41833 | 3.826% | 24735 | 3.678% |
| 14 | Giratina | 10.65583% | 11884 | 1.087% | 7714 | 1.147% |

Calcs
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 156-184 (40.9 - 48.2%)
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 62-73 (25.7 - 30.2%)
0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 89-105 (36.9 - 43.5%)
This seems reasonable, but I would think that A- is the better fit of the two. Diancie is a better rock type than, say, Aceus rock, which resides in the B+ tier. Giratina-O is also there, and while this is says more about Tina than Diancie the two really aren't really comparable.



As for myself, I'd like to support Clefable to B-, maybe B.
While Clefable is primarily a stallmon, it has an enviable role compression and matchup, especially vs high ranked mons.
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 179-212 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 241-285 (61.3 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 286-337 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 72-86 (18.3 - 21.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Bad Dreams damage
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 216-254 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

8 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 165-195 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 195-231 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 163-193 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Mewtwo X Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-181 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo X: 198-234 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 216-254 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fairy Aura Xerneas: 133-157 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 3HKO

+6 252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 158-186 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Bad Dreams damage
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 52-62 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Bad Dreams damage
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 216-254 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD knocked off Clefable: 146-173 (37.1 - 44%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 222-264 (52.1 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 144-169 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Heck, it can even live a gengar sludge wave and get chip damage in:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 294-348 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Of course, a wall of calcs isn't everything. Clefable is also an excellent glue- it's a cleric, it has wishpassing, it drains PP and scouts with protect, it absorbs status with magic guard, it can restore vital pokemon with healing wish, it can set rocks if you absolutely require it, especially since it forces out Mega Sableye, and it even ignores evasion and stats boosts if you find the need.
 
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Chloe

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Quantum Tesseract

How exactly is Mega Diancie a better Rock-type than Rock Arceus? Because it checks Darkrai temporarily and walls most Klefki? Rock Arceus actually has a lot going for it where I can make an argument against that. The most solid Ho-Oh check in the game, a great switch-in to any Mega Rayquaza set (bar EQ DD), resists the omnipresent Extreme Speed, has access to reliable recovery, isn't limited to running a mixed set to function effectively, e.t.c are only some of the reasons I'd actually choose to run Rock Arceus when building a team. Honestly, if we're going to make the argument that Mega Diancie counters Darkrai and Klefki, let's remember it can only take so many Dark Pulses and Foul Plays. It is so susceptible to slowly getting whittled down and being too heavily relied on as a Darkrai check. Its offensive presence is what makes it better than its Dark/Ghost bounce-counterpart arguably; however, there are other Pokémon that can utilise a similar set such as All-Out Attacker Xerneas and not waste a mega slot, as well as not giving away their set from the get go. Mega Diancie doesn't have a lot of options. Sure it can run more bulk, slot on Stealth Rock or Heal Bell over one of its essential coverage or give up Protect and disallow it from setting up its Mega Forme against Primal Groudon, Mega Rayquaza and Arceus; but does this really count as versatility? I'd really argue for this to go down to B+, it's just overhyped as sht. I just want to see arguments that make sense if I'm to be convinced otherwise. I'm not commenting on Clefable just yet since I'd like to test, but I don't know if a Pokémon limited to a single uncommon playstyle is really worthy of such a high rank.
 
Quantum Tesseract

How exactly is Mega Diancie a better Rock-type than Rock Arceus? Because it checks Darkrai temporarily and walls most Klefki? Rock Arceus actually has a lot going for it where I can make an argument against that. The most solid Ho-Oh check in the game, a great switch-in to any Mega Rayquaza set (bar EQ DD), resists the omnipresent Extreme Speed, has access to reliable recovery, isn't limited to running a mixed set to function effectively, e.t.c are only some of the reasons I'd actually choose to run Rock Arceus when building a team. Honestly, if we're going to make the argument that Mega Diancie counters Darkrai and Klefki, let's remember it can only take so many Dark Pulses and Foul Plays. It is so susceptible to slowly getting whittled down and being too heavily relied on as a Darkrai check. Its offensive presence is what makes it better than its Dark/Ghost bounce-counterpart arguably; however, there are other Pokémon that can utilise a similar set such as All-Out Attacker Xerneas and not waste a mega slot, as well as not giving away their set from the get go. Mega Diancie doesn't have a lot of options. Sure it can run more bulk, slot on Stealth Rock or Heal Bell over one of its essential coverage or give up Protect and disallow it from setting up its Mega Forme against Primal Groudon, Mega Rayquaza and Arceus; but does this really count as versatility? I'd really argue for this to go down to B+, it's just overhyped as sht. I just want to see arguments that make sense if I'm to be convinced otherwise. I'm not commenting on Clefable just yet since I'd like to test, but I don't know if a Pokémon limited to a single uncommon playstyle is really worthy of such a high rank.
A couple or reasons why its better:
#1: Taking on rai/keys. That's not enough by itself, but its still important
#2: A second stab. Extremely helpful, regardless of what it is
#3: Ability to stop Mray from setting up/1v1 it premega. If rockceus wants to do this, it needs to run spacial rend/ice beam
#4: Ability to block hazards and status for rest of the team
#5: Fairy typing to resist dark (Yveltal) and fighting Nuetral (Mewtwos, Deo-A has to psycho and drop Spa)
#6: Diamond Storm/Heal Bell

Advantages of Rockceus:
  • Bulk
  • Recovery
  • Speed
  • Mega Slot
  • Alternative (Nonground) coverage

Admittedly, the Mega Slot makes it far more even, but Diancie is much better than rockceus in absolute terms. Probably not as much better as I implied, but there are definite and major advantages.


As far as Clefable goes, I don't think the commonality of the playstyle should impact it overmuch- if anything, the fact that the playstyle is rare makes it better because people aren't prepared. For B-, Giratina is still ranked higher, and if giratina redeems itself by being more useful against PDon Clefable is almost as neccesary for stall. B is probably pushing it, but I see it as similar to Deo-s: Great on one uncommon playstyle, mediocre/useless elsewhere. (Not to say that Deo-S is bad, but suicide leads are rare)
 

Kris

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A couple or reasons why its better:
#1: Taking on rai/keys. That's not enough by itself, but its still important
#2: A second stab. Extremely helpful, regardless of what it is
#3: Ability to stop Mray from setting up/1v1 it premega. If rockceus wants to do this, it needs to run spacial rend/ice beam
#4: Ability to block hazards and status for rest of the team
#5: Fairy typing to resist dark (Yveltal) and fighting Nuetral (Mewtwos, Deo-A has to psycho and drop Spa)
#6: Diamond Storm/Heal Bell

Advantages of Rockceus:
  • Bulk
  • Recovery
  • Speed
  • Mega Slot
  • Alternative (Nonground) coverage

Admittedly, the Mega Slot makes it far more even, but Diancie is much better than rockceus in absolute terms. Probably not as much better as I implied, but there are definite and major advantages.


As far as Clefable goes, I don't think the commonality of the playstyle should impact it overmuch- if anything, the fact that the playstyle is rare makes it better because people aren't prepared. For B-, Giratina is still ranked higher, and if giratina redeems itself by being more useful against PDon Clefable is almost as neccesary for stall. B is probably pushing it, but I see it as similar to Deo-s: Great on one uncommon playstyle, mediocre/useless elsewhere. (Not to say that Deo-S is bad, but suicide leads are rare)
#1: Zang already explained about why this doesn't matter. Can you not read?
#2: A second STAB means a second type, which results in the same amount of weaknesses, yet more vulnerability to said weaknesses, and it also means Mega Diancie is hit neutrally by more types. This is already bad for comparing Mega Diancie to Rockceus, considering Rockceus at least has more bulk.
#3: Firstly, Mega Diancie can't even switch in on Rayquaza pre-Mega (regarding this, when the fuck do you not immediately evolve Rayquaza?) Rockceus can easily switch in on Mega Rayquaza, and it doesn't fucking need Spacial Rend or Ice Beam to hit it, considering Rockceus gets a 180 Base Power move in Judgment after Rock Plate and STAB, and with the right EVs, can OHKO after -1 SpD.
#4: Even though Magic Bounce is good for deflecting hazards and status, most of the users of said things have moves that can OHKO Mega Diancie, which means you're running on a 50/50 most of the time. This means that Defog is much more useful and reliable.
#5: Rockceus can easily switch in on any Yveltal set anyways, and Mewtwo is not common, and its Psystrike has a chance to OHKO Diancie (252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 222-263 (92.1 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO ?!?), and Psycho Boost from Deoxys-A OHKOes Mega Diancie anyways.
#6: What argument is "Diamond Storm/Heal Bell"? Firstly, Diamond Storm's meager 150 (after STAB) Base Power is nothing compared to Rockceus's 180 Base Power Judgment, and lol, "Heal Bell Mega Diancie". That doesn't exist.

Advantages of Rockceus:

Elaborate please. Don't just say "Bulk" and vague terms that try to better your case for Mega Diancie. Rockceus has 120/120/120 bulk, which is far more superior to Mega Diancie's 50/110/110 bulk. It gets reliable recovery, whereas Mega Diancie only gets Rest. This also means that Rockceus is can survive throughout the match longer, which Mega Diancie cannot do unless it gets Healing Wish passed to it (which isn't common). Yes, base 120 Speed. More Speed than Mega Diancie. Can outspeed more Pokemon. Correct. It doesn't waste a Mega Slot is good too. This means you can run more reliable teammates like Mega Rayuaza, which you cannot get with Mega Diancie. The amount of coverage that Rockceus gets is insanely good and a lot better than Mega Diancie.

tl;dr mega diancie is not better lol

idc about clefable
 
#1: Zang already explained about why this doesn't matter. Can you not read?
#2: A second STAB means a second type, which results in the same amount of weaknesses, yet more vulnerability to said weaknesses, and it also means Mega Diancie is hit neutrally by more types. This is already bad for comparing Mega Diancie to Rockceus, considering Rockceus at least has more bulk.
#3: Firstly, Mega Diancie can't even switch in on Rayquaza pre-Mega (regarding this, when the fuck do you not immediately evolve Rayquaza?) Rockceus can easily switch in on Mega Rayquaza, and it doesn't fucking need Spacial Rend or Ice Beam to hit it, considering Rockceus gets a 180 Base Power move in Judgment after Rock Plate and STAB, and with the right EVs, can OHKO after -1 SpD.
#4: Even though Magic Bounce is good for deflecting hazards and status, most of the users of said things have moves that can OHKO Mega Diancie, which means you're running on a 50/50 most of the time. This means that Defog is much more useful and reliable.
#5: Rockceus can easily switch in on any Yveltal set anyways, and Mewtwo is not common, and its Psystrike has a chance to OHKO Diancie (252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 222-263 (92.1 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO ?!?), and Psycho Boost from Deoxys-A OHKOes Mega Diancie anyways.
#6: What argument is "Diamond Storm/Heal Bell"? Firstly, Diamond Storm's meager 150 (after STAB) Base Power is nothing compared to Rockceus's 180 Base Power Judgment, and lol, "Heal Bell Mega Diancie". That doesn't exist.

Advantages of Rockceus:

Elaborate please. Don't just say "Bulk" and vague terms that try to better your case for Mega Diancie. Rockceus has 120/120/120 bulk, which is far more superior to Mega Diancie's 50/110/110 bulk. It gets reliable recovery, whereas Mega Diancie only gets Rest. This also means that Rockceus is can survive throughout the match longer, which Mega Diancie cannot do unless it gets Healing Wish passed to it (which isn't common). Yes, base 120 Speed. More Speed than Mega Diancie. Can outspeed more Pokemon. Correct. It doesn't waste a Mega Slot is good too. This means you can run more reliable teammates like Mega Rayuaza, which you cannot get with Mega Diancie. The amount of coverage that Rockceus gets is insanely good and a lot better than Mega Diancie.

tl;dr mega diancie is not better lol

idc about clefable
1. It totally still matters. If switching in on rai and keys wasn't important, diancie really wouldn't even still be usable. What zangooser said was that you can't just rely on it to take them on all game because it's easily chipped, and while this is completely true it doesn't change the fact that even that matchup is worlds better than what Rockies does vs them: that Is die if it doesn't waste a slot on mcoat and predict properly.
2. What? Diancie has fewer weaknesses than pure rock types (water/ground/steel vs water/ground/steel/fight), and it isn't being compared to fairy types. Am I just really misunderstanding this?
3. That's not what 1v1 means, at all; it means that if the two are in diancie wins. Premega is because MRay can run jolly earthquake and win that way, or band after rocks, or specs hp steel ala Zangooseer, and I didn't want to just list specific cases. Where are you getting the ko lol? t needs modes, which is absolute trash, to have a chance to do so: 252+ SpA Stone Plate Arceus-Rock Judgment vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 304-358 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO. Rockceus cant switch in at all, seeing as choice band ohkos it and lo sets up in its face. Sure diancie can't either, but that's not an advantage for rockceus like you make it out to be.
4. Sr normalceus, deoxys-s, skarmory, tyranitar, and blissey do not, spikes skarmory, klefki, deoxys, and scolipede do not, and many status-using pokemon such as MSable, Giratina, Lugia, and Dragonceus do not either. If we take OHKO literally, there is also support poisonceus, support fairyceus, and support Ghostceus. It's not that bad, although pokemon like Dialga, PDon and Steelceus certainly are disadvantages.
5. 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Rock: 214-253 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO. Yveltal either keeps pulsing while you hit recover, wearing you down, or it thwacks you with a sucker punch should you attack, 28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 165-195 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, totallying up to a potential KO even without stealth rock.
6. 8 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 139-165 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO vs 8 SpA Stone Plate Arceus-Rock Judgment vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Diancie's superior attacking stats renders the stone plate unnecesary, and diamond storm is a better move for both of them. For rockceus, it would have that same 180 bp while also raising defense, while on Diancie judgment is useless. Heal Bell has it's uses, and it's nicheness is why it's in the second slash of the bottom reason.

Meanwhile, for arceus rock:
This isn't an official analysis, and I figured that everyone would either know arceus statline or probably not have anything to contribute. Yes, that extra bulk is noticeable and helpful, but It's not as useful as being a darkrai switch is, which is Diancie's main selling point. I don't have much to argue with for the next bit, but as far as coverage goes Arceus-Rocks is mostly theoretical. As far as offensive sets go, its mostly using ep (which diancie has), with maybe a side note of grass knot or fire blast, neither of which are game changing unless you really hate ferrothorn.



So that I'm doing something other than arguing: Should barely usable pokemon like Landot and MegaBro really be listed in the role compendium? At the very least, we could do with something like what OU does, and split them into viable/niche. Looking into choice scarf, say, and seeing kyuw isn't really representative of viable scarfers. I know that its mostly sorted by usability in the row, but its easy to get the wrong impression after seing MRay listed after Mdiancie, or PDon as a worse SD mon than Poisonceus.
 
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Megazard

The turtle moves
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Ok hold up please. Let's get a few things straight. The comparison to Rockceus was dumb, they fundamentally perform different functions. That being said, there's a lot of ignorance on what the two actually do and I'd hate to see us do anything rash like decide that rockceus is significantly better than Mega Diancie. Having extensively used both, it's blatantly obvious that this is not the case. You have one solid offensive mon that people like to scorn because it's not terribly bulky and can't counter Darkrai forever as if that's something it or anything else can do, and you have one defensive mon people are bringing up has more speed and power than mega diancie rather than looking at it in practical terms of defensive and bulky CM sets.
Honestly, if we're going to make the argument that Mega Diancie counters Darkrai and Klefki, let's remember it can only take so many Dark Pulses and Foul Plays. It is so susceptible to slowly getting whittled down and being too heavily relied on as a Darkrai check. Its offensive presence is what makes it better than its Dark/Ghost bounce-counterpart arguably; however, there are other Pokémon that can utilise a similar set such as All-Out Attacker Xerneas and not waste a mega slot, as well as not giving away their set from the get go. Mega Diancie doesn't have a lot of options. Sure it can run more bulk, slot on Stealth Rock or Heal Bell over one of its essential coverage or give up Protect and disallow it from setting up its Mega Forme against Primal Groudon, Mega Rayquaza and Arceus; but does this really count as versatility?
I think this stuff is just key in ignoring how diancie actually functions. No, Diancie doesn't counter Darkrai and Klefki. Offensive checks are things that do something similar but with less permanency and more utility for offensive teams that can pivot into threatening shit and deal with them. Magic Bounce and typing don't mean you should expect Diancie to counter everything, they just provide a scary offensive mon (because really in most games your best switchins are bulky arceus formes taking half that need to stay healthy unless u have something specific like mega scizor) the opportunity to come in and have more defensive utility. AoA Xern doesn't have the speed to beat most ray or pivot into keys and rai effectively, that's no more an effective comparison than rockceus. Versatility isn't the strongest for Diancie, but it's not like you have to have different sets. I get that its huge but with how effective Diancie's single set is when bolstered by the possibility of slotting in secondary options over protect (the best) like Heal Bell (useable), Rocks (sucks, slap it on somth else), or CM (remember those defensive arceus switchins? or stall teams?) it doesn't exactly need to be super versatile.

Rockceus has a ton of other advantages, but it's really not as godlike at coming in on everything like people have suggested. Catching stray EQs sucks, it honestly doesn't have very good defensive typing outside of that flying resist where so many top offensive mons like Pdon, Pogre, etc just laugh at it, and it's "insanely good coverage" is not as good as Diancie's. Yes, you have a ton of crazy stuff. But in 3 strong moves, Diancie essentially covers the whole meta with everything it needs to. Rockceus doesn't have the strong offensive presence that Diancie does, that's just a fact. Honestly, Rockceus just doesn't function the same way that Diancie does, I'm pretty disappointed that the whole "it's an offensive mon" thing hasn't caught on with people trying to argue diancie should have more defensive prowess while also claiming that rockceus has better coverage and offensive presence. I don't want to see Diancie below Rockceus because it's just one of those underutilized things people like to shit on for having a bad ekiller mu, and the highly tangential arguments that don't really seem to come from much personal experience (and I'm not trying to blame anyone but just read this lol) just seem to back that up. B+ seems slightly low for diancie, I'll take it if everyone else really wants it to fall but it needs someone supporting it who doesn't immediately compare it to Rockceus because that argument just got dumb.
So that I'm doing something other than arguing: Should barely usable pokemon like Landot and MegaBro really be listed in the role compendium? At the very least, we could do with something like what OU does, and split them into viable/niche. Looking into choice scarf, say, and seeing kyuw isn't really representative of viable scarfers. I know that its mostly sorted by usability in the row, but its easy to get the wrong impression after seing MRay listed after Mdiancie, or PDon as a worse SD mon than Poisonceus.
Hi, I did the compendium. It's not ordered by viability, anybody can clearly tell that since Poisonceus is ahead of Pdon. All the Arceus formes are first for the most part. I agree that Mega Slowbro probably isn't worth it, Lando is less niche than you might think and probably fine to stay but that's kind of irrelevant. Sure, AG resources could use some work, and if some people want to get on updating the role compendium even further that'd be cool. But it's really not a top priority, for the most part it's pretty good right now unless I'm missing something and we have legitimate issues like how bad lower rank VR is (I'll get into this in a sec)
This seems reasonable, but I would think that A- is the better fit of the two. Diancie is a better rock type than, say, Aceus rock, which resides in the B+ tier. Giratina-O is also there, and while this is says more about Tina than Diancie the two really aren't really comparable.



As for myself, I'd like to support Clefable to B-, maybe B.
While Clefable is primarily a stallmon, it has an enviable role compression and matchup, especially vs high ranked mons.
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 179-212 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 241-285 (61.3 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 286-337 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 72-86 (18.3 - 21.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Bad Dreams damage
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 216-254 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

8 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 165-195 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 195-231 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 163-193 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Mewtwo X Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-181 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo X: 198-234 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 216-254 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Fairy Aura Xerneas: 133-157 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 35.5% chance to 3HKO

+6 252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 158-186 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Bad Dreams damage
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 52-62 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Bad Dreams damage
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 216-254 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD knocked off Clefable: 146-173 (37.1 - 44%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 222-264 (52.1 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 144-169 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Heck, it can even live a gengar sludge wave and get chip damage in:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 294-348 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Of course, a wall of calcs isn't everything. Clefable is also an excellent glue- it's a cleric, it has wishpassing, it drains PP and scouts with protect, it absorbs status with magic guard, it can restore vital pokemon with healing wish, it can set rocks if you absolutely require it, especially since it forces out Mega Sableye, and it even ignores evasion and stats boosts if you find the need.
Just to answer this first, I think you're overestimating how good clef is by a long shot. It's a solid glue but as soon as you calc sets other than defensive unaware (seriously what's the point of calc'ing magic guard, not only is it unviable but I'm pretty sure those are OU EVs) you've overstated how many sets it can run. That being said, I'm not against a B- rise. The thing is, right now our lower ranks are really bad, everything below B+ really terribly organized. Stuff that has seen a fair amount of usage like clefable and jirachi in the same rank as blaziken because we've carried so much over from ubers and people really want to keep stuff around. I think clefable performs a lot more solidly than the surrounding stuff, and moving things like clef and rachi is what we need to do unless we actually drop some of the lower ranks, which I'll go into now.

this is the actually important stuff for you people skipping big posts
Basically, there's a ton of mons that you don't see too much. This list isn't definite and please don't reply saying you see a ton of x mon unless there's something relevant, but we have mons that need to drop because of how they don't get used and yet still manage to stay in the same rank as far better and more common shit.
Scolipede (tspikes overrated, BP doesn't need that high ranking when espeon is only C+), Smeargle (not good, you know it's true), Zekrom (not awful, not B), Kyogre (scarf is ass), Blaziken (not good and not used is a good combo), ditto (lol), Aegislash (lol), Garchomp (probably should be unranked but it's the same rank as latias), Mega Kanga (needs usage), Lando-I/T (not awful in theory but need usage), Mega Meta/Lucario (not the worst shit but not good especially meta), regular ray/megamence (very outclassed and don't get the usage to show why they deserve a non-D ranking), Wobbuffet (usage), and basically everything in the lower ranks that doesn't get touched.
It's blatantly clear that a lot of this stuff doesn't get used, and it's hard when so much of the community is on ladder and in the room rather than actually on VR. But, in the meantime, we have to work with what we've got. I don't want to leave these mons based on guesses and opinions, I'd much rather actually do something with the ranks. If we take away all the stuff that doesn't get used / should obviously drop and just ignore it for a while, where does everything else fall? You can clearly see some issues like genesect and jirachi ranked together or how weird B rank gets. This deserves a lot more discussion both in the council and in the thread but what I'd like to do is remove all the stuff that you don't see, don't think about, don't use, don't know, and slap it in a separate listing like "to be determined". Then we can focus on ranking the shit we do know and then go back and start working with all the to be determined stuff with more significant testing. It'd be a long and somewhat more annoying process, but the upshot is having a truly accurate VR rather than working with a rank with both blaziken and jirachi. I'd love to hear opinions on this, I think the lower ranks really do suck but maybe not everyone agrees with that or there's a better way to run the system or something.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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So I got like 8 likes and then nobody actually commented. But that does not mean the council has been idle! First off, because of the absence of both Hunterstorm and Gunner Rohan, we have added Thimo to the council! Everyone spam him from VMs. But, more seriously, you might notice that the second post with the viability rankings looks a bit weird and that's what I'm here to explain.

If you read my above proposal then you'll have a general idea about this, but our viability rankings were wildly inaccurate with tons of mons there taking up space without seeing pretty much any use at all. These mons have been shifted to the TBD rank, where we are going to slowly begin the process of improving the VR from the bottom up by testing and figuring out exactly where they really belong. This includes all of C rank and below save Quagsire and a few choice mons from higher up that seemed wrongly placed or didn't get much usage. Since this thread has been fairly lacking in VR discussion once we really fleshed out the higher ranks, we're hoping that we can boost activity a little bit. The council is still only 3 members with real lives and we can't test everything fully ourselves, which is why we're encouraging everybody to pick one or more of their favorite mons, play around with them, and report back here. Replays vs actually decent opponents are incredibly valuable for determining where the mon should go. We will be trying to promote discussion and testing in the Anything Goes room, and we are also trying to implement the next round of daily challenges, back from our group chat stage by popular demand. These will likely include many of the TBD mons to promote more people using them as much as possible so we can really paint an accurate picture of how these mons function. Additionally, we will be watching the thread and noting users with helpful contributions. If you have any questions, feel free to PM one of the council members, and good luck testing!

oh and we also put diancie in a-
 

Josh

=P
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since we are already revamping a ton, can we please fix s rank? mray/ekiller/rai are a clear step ahead of xern and pdon, those 2 being dropped to a+ would be much better, with the rest of a being lowered as you see fit. i personally see ho-oh and fairyceus staying a+, with the rest dropping. i brought up that i suggested this a while ago in the ag room and got complete support so im renomming in the thread.
 
Smeargle (not good, you know it's true)
I'd contest that. I peaked #5 in March with a team of Scoli/Arceus-Fairy/3 Smeargles/Espeon, here's the RMT. I'm pretty sure I could get a similar ranking if I laddered with that team again. There are plenty of high-ladder replays there, including one with Curve and iirc I 6-0'd Zangooser but can't find the replay. BP/Moody spam is boring to play and annoying to play against, so you don't see it much on the ladder, but it's a legitimately threatening playstyle that you specifically have to prepare for, and play carefully against. I'd push for no lower than B+ or B for Smeargle.
 
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Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
I'd contest that. I peaked #5 in March with a team of Scoli/Arceus-Fairy/3 Smeargles/Espeon, here's the RMT. I'm pretty sure I could get a similar ranking if I laddered with that team again. There are plenty of high-ladder replays there, including one with Curve and iirc I 6-0'd Zangooser but can't find the replay. Moody spam is boring to play and annoying to play against, so you don't see it much on the ladder, but it's a legitimately threatening playstyle that you specifically have to prepare for, and play carefully against. I'd push for no lower than B+ or B for Smeargle.
I can agree you have made a well team around Smeargle, but when just "peaking" won't be enough here imo.We need to see it that mon is also getting usage and it it's viable in general or not.For moody, I can just say it's unreliable and (though rare) perish song users do give you a hard time.

Zangooser too peaked with Amoonguss but that doesn't mean it's more viable all of a sudden.(It's just, she made a good team around it)Not to mention the terrakion peak
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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since we are already revamping a ton, can we please fix s rank? mray/ekiller/rai are a clear step ahead of xern and pdon, those 2 being dropped to a+ would be much better, with the rest of a being lowered as you see fit. i personally see ho-oh and fairyceus staying a+, with the rest dropping. i brought up that i suggested this a while ago in the ag room and got complete support so im renomming in the thread.
We've been discussing this in the room, and here's my general thoughts on the topic. I agree, ray rai arc are clearly a step above the other two. However, xern and don are themselves a clear step above A+, which itself has a bit of a disparity between its mons. Obviously the creation of a S- rank has been brought up, but I'd rather not because we have so few top tier mons that separating them into yet another sub rank seems completely unnecessary. My top choice remains doing nothing, I think don and xern have enough of a lead to earn their place in S even if it's not as strong a place as the others. However, if there is enough support for them dropping and most people are convinced they need to be lowered, I would accept dropping them to A+ and then dropping klefki and ghostceus down to A. Keys should be self explanatory, Ghostceus is honestly underrated in that I see so little SD or CM sets when they're far superior to the crappy lead one. This isn't my preferred option but there is definitely some rank inflation so it's worth discussing.

And smeargle still sucks, most of the games came down to very specific, unprepared matchups or happening to get multiple evasion boosts which is so unreliable compared to the cost of running it (you can't put it on any old team, your rmt is probably pretty well optimized but it's a very specific, niche BP build rather than something I could use commonly). Its unreliability and frailty should've precluded it from being in the same rank as giratina long ago
 

dragonite drake

i go by zanglooser on ps
i will edit to add arguments a bit busy rn, but i nom GLALIE for B rank
while u wait have some fun with these replays

thats all for now
e:arguments:
Most people believe glalies is completly based of luck and only wins when evasion. But i disagree. i argue it wins when it gets speed, respectivve defense depending on opposing mon or evasion.lets say you are facing a physical mon. so on the first turn you use protect, a +2 defense helps it tank hits(most of the time) and setup sub. a +2 spe allows it to outspeed opposing mon and spam subs, and +2 evasion is evasion.so in most senarios 3/6 possible boost will give you an atvantage, or to say 1/2. now 1.2 is already gret, but theres more. if u got an non ideal boost u can go for a double protect.without taking into account the negative boost(might complicate this) we would havve a 1/2 chance of double protect and another 1/2 chance of getting desired boost. so on first turn i have 1/2 chance and incase fail on the second i have a 1/4th chance. i could say i have a 3/4th chance of getting ideal boosts in just 2 turns. this is enough for me to be convinced this is relaible.

now what happens after you get inside a substitute. most probable cas, the opp will break it as soon as u enter sub. but it will give more turn for moody to build up. as we have seen iby 2nd turn we already have such a great chance of boost. imagine 4th turn. and so on. slowly we build up stats, specailly evasion. we can start sweeping, and having a great typing for stab and good pp, glalie can quite easily do that.

sure even after perfect setup it can be stopped. the unaware users are the first to com eto mind. while the new freeze dry variants i have been trying kills quag, clef is a pain , luckily mega gengar exists.diance would have been a great stop if not for its fraility. ngl sable is almost unbeatable , specailly when carrying taunt, but if glalie manages to get to good spa it can beat sablye.
so considering how it is more relaible then one would think, how it can sweep after setup, and how its c&c can all be beaton one way or another, i believe it deserves B rank
 
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I'd like for Shedinja to be reranked in C-/C. It's a lot more effective than it sounds, especially since it takes on so many high ranked mons. It functions, in many cases, as a better unaware, and is the only switchin for Genesect that doesn't just get uturned out of. It beats Xerneas, CM Arceus, Deoxys-Attack, Mewtwo, MMY/X, Regular Don (although rocks go up so its not really a win), and some support forms.
Replays are in My RMT http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/does-this-even-work-ag-rmt-peak-1.3581822/, although I'll link the better ones here for convenience.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-433791725


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432489520
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432386570
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432986251
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432994128
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-433014393
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-433786546
 
I can agree you have made a well team around Smeargle, but when just "peaking" won't be enough here imo.We need to see it that mon is also getting usage and it it's viable in general or not.For moody, I can just say it's unreliable and (though rare) perish song users do give you a hard time.

Zangooser too peaked with Amoonguss but that doesn't mean it's more viable all of a sudden.(It's just, she made a good team around it)Not to mention the terrakion peak
Smeargle is at a respectable #15 at 1760+ ELO, above all current B ranks but Giratina and Deoxys-A, so I don't know why you brought usage up (edit: welp apparently I brought it up first, sorry). Either way, usage =/= viability, so that's a moot point. I'm not advocating for a high ranking for Smeargle because I got a high up ladder with it or something (I'm sure there are better players that have done better with Smeargle/BP anyway), but because BP/Moody spam is a potent and threatening playstyle that you have to keep in mind when teambuilding to succeed, and the rankings should reflect that.

And smeargle still sucks, most of the games came down to very specific, unprepared matchups or happening to get multiple evasion boosts which is so unreliable compared to the cost of running it (you can't put it on any old team, your rmt is probably pretty well optimized but it's a very specific, niche BP build rather than something I could use commonly). Its unreliability and frailty should've precluded it from being in the same rank as giratina long ago
"very specific, unprepared matchups"? With that team I stand a good chance against all teams that lack Perish Song. I could swap one Smeargle for Mr Mime or Magic Coat for Taunt, in which case I'd be trading a Perish Song weakness for a fast Taunt weakness. Either way, there are only several moves that threaten BP/Moody Spam (Perish Song, Haze, Taunt, phazing, strong priority) and different builds are possible to cover each of these to a degree. It doesn't need very specific matchups, if anything, it forces the opponent to use specific counters (i.e. Perish Song Arceus high ladder).

As for unreliable, well, it depends on what you mean. You may lose or win a single match due to hax, but in the long run it's statistics, and it's largely in the Moody user's favor- the fact that Glalie and Smeargle are seriously being nommed for B should tell you how broken Moody is. Over the course of hundreds of ladder games, Evasion boosts saving the Moody user's ass isn't some freak phenomenon/luck/hax, it's simply expected, hence why it works. It's unreliable in the sense that you might not want to play a tourney with it, but not in the sense that using it won't consistently give you high win rates, even though you may lose a match you should've won or vica versa. It does require a specific playstyle (but so does Mega Sable, for example) and it's not splashable, I concede, but that's why I'm nominating it to B+/B and not higher.
 
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DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
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[13:16:00] +Chloe: i dare u



I'm here to nominate Mega Gengar to S rank. Looking at the A+ rank Pokemon I really do feel Mega Gengar doesn't belong here, it is blessed with great traits for Anything Goes. Firstly, its Speed stat after mega evolving surpass various threats in Anything Goes especially Darkrai, Arceus and, Mega Rayquaza which is huge feat since these three are top threats in the Anything Goes metagame. Additionally, it's Special Attacking stats is simply amazing when combined with its great STAB moves and coverage in Focus Blast is able to nail the OHKO on these threats. Furthermore, its typing in Ghost / Poison achieves a lot for Mega Gengar, most importantly its immunity to Extreme Speed which is an important move on all offensive Arceus Forms plus Mega Rayquaza, its resistance to Fairy one of the best defensive typing in the game, allowing it to easily take on Arceus-Fairy, Clefable and, Xerneas. Ghost typing is an amazing offensive and defensive typing allowing it to take on Arceus-Ghost and Lugia. Its ability in Shadow Tag assures that nothing is going to leave the field before its OHKOed making it an amazing offensive revenge killer and a stall killer. The abundance of Ho-Oh and Yveltal sure hinders it but it can make use of Destiny Bond allowing it to take the foe with it, and they won't switch in directly to Mega Gengar since Shadow Tag. It can also make use of different moves such as Protect allowing it to automatically gain more speed upon mega evolving and not die to faster Pokemon, Disable if combined with Protect can also be great use, Perish Song is also an okay move to use on Mega Gengar if you really need to dismantle some balance and stall cores. Its only problem is Mega Evolving against these fast threats but with the right team support it can be scary to face. And this isn't a counter argument for the nomination, since Arceus and Xerneas also needs good team support to function and not get walled by their checks but they are probably less predictable, Mega Gengar balances that with Shadow Tag. All these positive traits that are much more more weighted than the negative traits make Mega Gengar a deserving Pokemon for the S rank.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
I'd like for Shedinja to be reranked in C-/C. It's a lot more effective than it sounds, especially since it takes on so many high ranked mons. It functions, in many cases, as a better unaware, and is the only switchin for Genesect that doesn't just get uturned out of. It beats Xerneas, CM Arceus, Deoxys-Attack, Mewtwo, MMY/X, Regular Don (although rocks go up so its not really a win), and some support forms.
Replays are in My RMT http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/does-this-even-work-ag-rmt-peak-1.3581822/, although I'll link the better ones here for convenience.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-433791725


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432489520
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432386570
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432986251
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432994128
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-433014393
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-433786546
I have to say I disagree with this. I've used Shedinja a little, and while it can be fun to use I'd certainly never consider bringing it in a serious game. While it's cool to have so solid an answer to most Xern, Ogre, CM Arc and so forth, I've found it to be both very difficult to use against a good opponent, and outclassed by other mons.

The first problem with the mon is the vast number of ways in which it dies to things. You say it beats Xern, Deo-A, Mewtwo formes, and regular don, but this isn't quite right: Xern occasionally runs rock slide for ho-oh, generally on scarf sets (though you don't know if it's scarf until it's used a move, and if that move was rock slide on shed then rip). 40% of Deo-a run knock off, 30% of MMY run Shadow Ball and 20% run Flamethrower, with only slightly lower numbers for regular mewtwo, and I've run rock slide on mmx for ho-oh in the past. I run Lava Plume on my Lum Don because the burns are nice and it catches things like skarm and ferro. CM Arc formes can rarely do anything to you, but at the same time the best you can do in return is burn them then wait for them to run out of PP. Two of them and you're gonna need a second answer.
This is all on top of the usual problems - obviously Stealth Rock is very nasty to try and stop when they've got a setter like lando-i that can beat m-sab, but even if sab walls their setter you can quite often wear it down to a point where the SR mon beats it 1v1 and then you've got problems - generally you need two forms of hazard prevention, which means it requires a huge amount of support. There's also things like ekillers using magic coat as you try to wow them, or rocky helmet mons being brought in as you shadow sneak.
And even then, that's ignoring the worst thing - that M-ray, P-don, rai, keys, Ho-Oh, Arc-Ghost and Yveltal are all within top 10 on the 1760 usage chart, and great though baton pass is for providing momentum, at some point they're going to predict you and and then something dies. Let's not forget how useful rocks are against M-ray, Ho-Oh and Yveltal, and chances are you won't have rocks up because you had to use defog.

But even so, Shedinja would probably have a niche as a mon that can beat the vast majority of xern, ogre, CM Arc and so forth. And while it's easily taken out with the right weapons, at least it can't be worn down over time unlike more common checks such as ferro. The reason I wouldn't consider using it in a competitive game is that it's outclassed. Ferrothorn, which I mentioned earlier, may be easier to wear down but in general is just far better, being able to come in on a number of big threats, be generally annoying with leech seed and gyro ball, and also serves as a rocks setter. I'd also argue that Amoonguss entirely outclasses Shedinja, as Regen allows it to effectively deal with the things that beat both ferrothorn and shedinja: hazards don't affect it much, things like HP fire xern don't affect it much, and things like burns don't affect it much.

tl;dr I've found shedinja to have far too many weaknesses to be worth using, as to use it effectively takes a huge amount of team support. I've also found it to be outclassed by mons like Ferrothorn and Amoonguss, so I don't see any reason it should go higher than D rank.

And since you provided so many replays displaying its effectiveness, here's one displaying how it can be played around: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-432376919
 

Pigeons

pidge pidge
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AG Circuit Champion
I have to say I disagree with this. I've used Shedinja a little, and while it can be fun to use I'd certainly never consider bringing it in a serious game. While it's cool to have so solid an answer to most Xern, Ogre, CM Arc and so forth, I've found it to be both very difficult to use against a good opponent, and outclassed by other mons.
I've used Sheddy quite extensively and while I'm still not 100% sure about its ranking, I don't agree with some of what you said.

Firstly, you said that Shedinja is outclassed by other mons. I'd like to know what mons you think outclass Shedinja, as nothing else checks the mentioned threats as well is it can, and nothing even comes close to being able to grab as much momentum off of said threats like Shedinja can. You mentioned Ferrothorn as a mon that outclasses Shedinja but it absolutely doesn't. Firstly, Ferrothorn is a horrible Xerneas check, as Focus Blast is run on 38% of Xerneas and will 1HKO Ferro after a Geomancy. In addition, Ferrothorn actually takes a lot of damage from Water Spout POgre and even though it won't usually 2HKO, Ferrothorn can only switch in so many times. On top of that, Ferrothorn can't gain nearly as much momentum as Shedinja vs. the things it can wall, you're forced to either double switch or take an attack from a Ho-Oh or Rayquaza that could easily switch in. The same goes for Amoonguss, Foul Play hardly discourages those threats from coming in and lets them get off a free attack. You mention HP Fire Xern, but HP Fire is sitting at 6% usage (below trash like Flash Cannon) while Psyshock, which beats Amoonguss, is at 13%. Shedinja's role, however niche, is certainly a unique one, and it's definitely not outclassed by either of the things you mentioned.

You raise a fair point, Shedinja can get hit with random coverage moves that render it unable to check something. However, Shedinja often has 2 ways to prevent this. Firstly, most Shedinja carry a Focus Sash to mitigate that issue (unless you're Thimo and are running TTar Sheddy Stall (absolutely disgusting), so even if the opponent is carrying some weird coverage move, Sheddy can stick around for a while longer. In addition, Shedinja also carries Protect to stall and scout for random coverage. Random moves are certainly an issue, but they're not the end of all things like you make them out to be. A little side note, I agree Shedinja isn't really a check to MMY or Deo-A, but it does forces mindgames with those Pokemon if they want to predict a switch, which could work to a Shedinja player's advantage. Not really part of my argument, but something to consider.

You also mentioned that Shedinja's only option vs CM Arceus forms is to stall them out, and while this is true to some extent, stalling them out is quite doable. With Baton Pass, you'll go second vs Arceus, meaning Shedinja can absorb the hit then go to a teammate. Afterwards, Shedinja is free to hard switch back in. As predictable as this is (you did mention Ray being able to predict you, which is an issue), the BP+switch loop alone has an effective 128 PP, combine that with Protect, Shadow Sneak and hard switching out of Shedinja on predicted Recovers and stalling even 2 CM Arceus becomes doable.

Entry hazards and Shedinja are always a fun topic. Again, I 100% agree that Shedinja requires a ton of team support. In fact, the amount of support it needs is one reason why I'm still unsure about where Shedinja fits in the rankings. Lando-I wasn't the best example for a SR mon but more offensive PDon can break MSab and MDiancie loses even worse to PDon. It's still manageable in battles (at least with the team I run) but requires half the team to be dedicated to hazard removal/prevention.

Sheddy's an interesting case, even if I disagree with some of your statements I still think D is about right for the ranking (though I can see C-, C is definitely too high). Shedinja is extremely niche and requires most of the team to be built around supporting it. Losing to common wallbreakers like Ray, Ho-Oh and PDon also sucks a lot for a stall Pokemon, even though it can pivot around with BP, it's easy to get into a predictable cycle that allows the opponent to make a read and get Ray or Ho-Oh in for free. If you'd like to see the team I used, the RMT is in my sig. For anyone else wanting to see Sheddy in action, feel free to challenge me on Showdown (I'll be on the accounts Erotic Shrikes and Erotic Pigeons today).

[13:16:00] +Chloe: i dare u



I'm here to nominate Mega Gengar to S rank.
I was unsure at first, but I feel confident now seconding this nom. Mega Gengar has huge utility vs all playstyles, and effectively no counterplay thanks to Shadow Tag. Against Stall, Gengar can remove defensive Pokemon like Skarmory, Clefable and some support Arceus forms, opening the way for many sweepers. vs offense, Gengar's high Speed and Special Attack let it eliminate a Mega Rayquaza after a few DA drops, as well as EKiller (provided Focus Blast), Xerneas, Darkrai (Focus Blast 1HKOs, Sludge Wave comes close) and can force a trade with Destiny Bond against pretty much anything. Mega Gengar pairs well with so many mons it's ridiculous, Darkrai appreciates Fairies gone, EKiller likes having Lugia or Skarmory removed and Xerneas appreciates the removal of Ho-Oh or PDon (you need to sack Gengar for this though). A really cool combination is running U-turn Yveltal to lure in and trap Fairies. The point is, Gengar can fit on many offence teams, and I've been thinking about trying it on stall (get rid of a threatening sweeper or 2 to ease the load on the rest of the team) but idk how that'll work out. DEG covered it fairly well so I don't have too much more to say, but yeah Gengar is fire.
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
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tfw Dream Eater Gengar ninja's ur nom:

Naw but to be serious though Mega Gengar has always been an S-Rank threat in my eyes. It gives unparalleled offensive utility to many setup sweepers such as Ekiller, Geoxern, DD Mega Rayquaza, Dual Dance Primal Groudon, etc.. by easily removing their checks/counters due to Mega Gar's great offensive coverage in Thunder, Focus Blast, HP Fire and its great STAB moves. It also pertains nice support options with things such like Destiny Bond, Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, etc.. that can help it cripple more defensive walls which also helps boosts its utility for offensive teams. Now the most obvious argument against this nom is the "Mega Rayquaza opportunity cost" because people still feel that Mega Ray is the best mega in the meta (for some valid reasonings don't get me wrong), however I feel the current meta has really grown to deal with Mega Ray in the form of Arceus-Fairy being everywhere and Ekiller being prominent and still being a problem to it. Like DEG stated, Mega Gengar really seems out of place in compared to the other A+ mons and should rise because of this.

My quick opinions on the current slate:
A+ -> A: Agree Klefki has really been lacking as of recently, especially with the increase usage of Sub Taunt Darkrai which really screws up Klefki's RNG shenanigans. Lum Berry and Magic Coat Ekiller also acts as a great way to deal with Klefki now and many players have been utilizing these strats to great success. Klefki just isn't as consistent as it used to be, which is why I can see it go down to A-rank.

&
S -> A+:
Disagree I am sorry but I cannot see either of these two massive threats go down to A+. Although not as good as compared to its Ubers counterpart, Primal Groudon still remains to be a top threat due to it being one of the most reliable SR setters and its Dual Dance sweeper set just easily breaking down offense and stall teams so easily. Xerneas is in the same boat as well, its better in Ubers compared to AG, but GeoXern will always remain to be something that every team needs at least 2 checks to deal with. It is also one of the best if not the best Darkrai answers with its Scarf Sleep Talk set, which is also nice to run through offensive teams as well. I can see the arguments that they may not be on the same level as Mega Ray, Darkrai and Ekiller, which is why I can only see them being placed in a newly created S- Rank.
Unranked -> B:
Agree Moody is honestly so stupid and I feel Glalie is the best abuser of it thanks to Frost Breath + Substitute + Taunt messing up so much stuff. Not much else to say lol, its annoying af = good in AG.

Never used or seen Sheddy yet so no opinion on that. Also gonna be trying out the unranked mons to leave my opinion on them as well.
 

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