Rejected Arceus in DPP Ubers

[oreo guy]

approved by Taka and Fc

For the past couple years there’s been significant discussion among several notable DPP Ubers players, particularly in the DPP Ubers Discord, about unbanning Farceus. Given the different circumstances the 2020 Farceus suspect was conducted under, how close the vote was, and the Farceus metagame continuing to be played and seeing significant developments, many players feel a re-examination of Farceus’ place in DPP Ubers is long overdue.

As mentioned, Farceus was banned in 2020 under different suspect circumstances. For starters, the ban threshold was 60%, making a ban result easier to attain than all other Ubers suspects, which require a ⅔ supermajority. In addition, the voter requirements in the 2020 Farceus suspect did not necessarily require voters to play any Farceus games; voters could qualify through 2019 standards, which included time periods before Farceus was initially unbanned. Even with these significant differences in the suspect process, which made it easier to ban Farceus, the vote was still very close, only barely clearing the 60% ban threshold with a final ban vote of 62.5%. All of these factors made the 2020 Farceus ban incredibly controversial in recent years.

Despite Farceus being formally banned, the Farceus metagame continued to be played; both through tournaments like the annual Ubers Circuit Farceus Tournament, UWL III, and DPPPL IV/V; and receiving a monthly ladder in February 2024. In that time, the metagame has developed to a very different state from 2020, distinct from regular DPP Ubers. While regular DPP Ubers is dominated by offense and hyper offense, with balance being niche at best, modern Farceus Ubers is very balance-centric, with the once-dominant Extreme Killer sun HO style now relatively niche. The main reason for this is because Farceus, despite its EV restrictions, has an incredible defensive profile that makes it ability to stomach hits from a myriad of offensive Pokemon, including Groudon, Mewtwo, Darkrai, and perhaps most importantly, mixed Dragon-types like Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina-O, making it far easier for bulky teams to stomach their hits over the course of a game. This limiting of offensive styles that dominate regular DPP Ubers allows balance to thrive.

Players in favor of freeing Farceus argue that it’s not broken in the current metagame, as all forms have reliable counterplay and don’t put much strain on teambuilding. Pokémon used to check various forms of Arceus, including but not limited to Kyogre, Dialga, Giratina-O, Groudon, Latias, Skarmory, Blissey, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Giratina, Kabutops, Qwilfish, and other forms of Arceus, are great Pokemon in their own right that see use in the metagame even without Arceus. Keeping Farceus banned is therefore antithetical to the identity of Ubers, which aims to keep bans to a minimum while maintaining a playable metagame. They also believe Farceus is a healthy presence, with its more balance-centric and less offense-heavy nature compared to regular DPP Ubers, improving consistency and emphasizing skillful play as opposed to surprise techs and prep.

However, the idea of unbanning Farceus has always been a sensitive one due to DPP Ubers being one of the most popular metagames of all time. Opponents of a Farceus unban argue the tier is fine as is and that unbanning Farceus makes the tier worse.

The purpose of this thread is to incite actionable discussion about whether or not Farceus should be unbanned from DPP Ubers, as well as conducting a vote on Farceus if there’s enough support.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-817402
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-817420
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-835216
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-857631

 

[oreo guy]

I’ve already gone over the reasons to free Farc in my many discussions over the years about how much better Farc is than reg. Reg DPP has been incredibly unfun to me for a long time, I really dislike how much emphasis it places on offense, trading, and fishing while banning a mon that massively helps with all those issues and puts more emphasis on balance. I wasn’t around when Farc was legal in 2020 so I won’t claim to know if Farc was actually broken or not back then. However, in recent years I have not seen a single person claiming Farceus is broken or uncompetitive, and that’s because it just isn’t. Every form has ample, consistent counterplay, both offensively and defensively, that’s completely reasonable to slot on teams without severely compromising yourself against the metagame at large. It isn’t promoting matchup fishing. It isn’t heavily or entirely abusing luck-based elements, or forcing suboptimal plays just to not lose to it. The only true reason I’ve heard opposing Farc unban is maintaining the status quo but that’s just a horrible way to go about tiering. Whether you like reg or Farc more is subjective, but I see zero reason to keep Farceus banned when it’s not broken or uncompetitive, especially in the very tier that aims to only ban the most egregious offenders.

 

[Tbolt]

I'd like to make a few points towards any counter-arguments to Farceus's inclusion. Farceus Ubers isn't a novel idea; it has been played in the half-decade since the 2020 suspect test and metagame developments have been made since then. These points will hopefully dispel some invalid points made against this:

• "Farceus is overpowered." - This just simply isn't true. Farceus's EV restriction makes it less fast, less bulky, and less powerful than it is in future generations. Extreme Killer is not removing your Normal-resist at 60% the way it does in BW (it's also not even a top 3 Arceus forme). It also is vulnerable to every entry hazard in the game and does not carry Leftovers. Even if you think that Calm Mind Arceus is annoying, it does not show anything that we have not seen from other bulky Calm Minders like Mewtwo, aside from maybe Arceus-Steel's resilience to Toxic Spikes. Even then, Steel is not a particularly gifted offensive typing and struggles into metagame standards like Dialga and Groudon.
• "Farceus makes the metagame worse." - This is more subjective, but I believe the Farceus metagame is simply different, not worse. Unless you count Pokemon that are already middling in DPP Ubers like Shaymin-Sky and Manaphy, Pokemon that are good in regular DPP Ubers are still good in Farceus Ubers. In addition, many Pokemon like Skarmory, Infernape, and Roserade find their niche expanded with the metagame changes. I find that Farceus's defensive presence makes it easier to deal with certain otherwise overwhelming threats (mixed Rayquaza, Darkrai, etc.). Adding another bulky Steel to soak up Draco Meteors is very helpful when your options to do so otherwise are Bronzong and Jirachi. The most notable metagame development is that you really want to have Spikes or Toxic Spikes when playing Farceus and there isn't an abundance of setters. Even then, there still are many great options: Deoxys-S, Forretress, Skarmory, and Qwilfish see the most usage, while Deoxys-D and Roserade are underrated options.
• "Farceus would completely invalidate our DPP Ubers knowledge." - If you haven't kept up with the metagame in the past few years, then maybe this is true. The DPP Ubers community has played Farceus Ubers and developed resources for the tier. Farceus Ubers has also seen play in team tournaments of the past few years. We aren't starting this metagame from scratch, and we can prepare players for any metagame transition. In addition, adding Farceus Ubers does not fundamentally change anything about the metagame; Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina-O are still great Pokemon (depending on Spacial Rend accuracy, of course).

I fail to see any logical reason to keep Arceus banned. If it was already in the tier and we suspect tested it, it wouldn't be banned.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I used to be vehemently against Farceus Ubers when this topic came up in the past. A large portion of my argument was rooted in a concern over making such a sweeping change and the effect that that change would have on returning players. I eventually came to realize that argument is STUPID. Tiers are not for the people who might someday return from the mountains to play them again. They are for the people who are actively playing them.

I eventually started playing almost exclusively Farceus Ubers and it was my main tier in DPPPL for a few years and I won a Farceus tournament or something I think. Ultimately, through playing the tier as much as, if not more, than I played standard Ubers in that timeframe, I just frankly think Farceus is a more enjoyable metagame. That's the only thing I personally care about; other people can argue over the more nuanced arguments.

 

[LBN]

As someone who's played farceus a couple times, winning that solo tour ubers runs on occasion and suffering in turmoil for DPPPL with it, yeah no thanks. On a sentimental standpoint, I think the Pokemon Farceus "boosts" as discussed in the OP like skarmory and blissey are just the antithesis of fun in a tier where getting off spins is harder than it already is in regular DPP. Introducing another comically durable and quality Ghost Type that trades spikes and tspikes immunity for reliable on demand recovery basically makes any prospects of getting spins off die in a fire and taking the Ouija board with it.

This isn't the only annoying effect farceus has on the builder. That addendum of Blissey rising is almost entirely due to the fact that CM arceus forms are stupid into just about everything. That mention of Ekiller being less good is also more of a cosequence of skarm rising out of necessity. For the most part bread and butter Ekiller beats damn near everything else except for like, very healthy Don, Zong, and healthy end Arc-Steel/Ghost. If you want to copy AG players and load Chilan Berry Darkrai, be my guest. But that's cope, and Ekiller doesn't struggle to set up with that natural bulk and Draco Meteor being as spammed as it is. The moment you guys encounter your first Overheat Ekiller and it decks your skarm for 84 minimum you'll be on the Ban camp too, I promise.

I do think some of the Arceus forms are just flat out broken. If there's a timeline we do away with Arc-Steel / Arc-Ghost / Ekiller and can unban the rest then maybe I'd reconsider? But as it stands no, no thanks.

This is a seperate thing, but that mention of suspect unban procedures changing has no bearing on this situation. According to the result of the Natdex Deo-S suspect debacle, any previously suspected ban with a 60% majority, will require that 60% majority to continue on any repeated action. If Farceus had never been suspected before, then you would be able to do a 50%+1 system (i think, frankly I'm still suspicious that isnt how it works because thats an OU rule seperate from ubers). But because farceus achieved 62% last, it's mandated to be the same criteria as last time.

 

[shrang]

Okay, I'll be upfront and air out my biases right from the get-go - as most of you know, I'm a boomer who was (and to an extent, is) pretty much against banning anything from Ubers on principle outside of uncompetitive nonsense like evasion and you'll probably find a 10+ year old thread I made a while back on what I deem to uncompetitive. This mentality does not reflect on what most modern Ubers players think how we should run the tier. However! This is DPP Ubers, a metagame that is almost 20 years old and if we're going to take into account the preferences of the established playerbase (most of whom have been playing this metagame for >10 years), I think it's only fair to take into account my boomer classical Ubers mentality shenanigans lol.
I'll also note that my biases have also shifted in terms of preference in the last 5+ years since the 2020 suspect test - before Farceus was released for about a year, I had not played regular DPP since current generation (2010) and I literally had a 10 year hiatus from the tier; as such, I found Farceus to be a breath of fresh air and liked that metagame more than regular so I was a lot more upset about it being banned. Since then, I've had quite a bit of success in regular DPP Ubers and have been playing it much more and between the two I definitely enjoy and am better at regular over Farceus; that being said, I am a man of PRINCIPLE, and if there's a difference between what is enjoyable and convenient and what is actually the right thing to do, I'm picking right thing to do which is to unban Farceus even if it means I get less enjoyable and less success.

With that out of the way, I actually had a massive dumpster fire text file that I was working on, but because I've been busy with work/medical training, life in general, and honestly laziness, so it's great that Oreo has taken the initiave to take this on - progress is always better than perfection. My main issues with all of this has always been the following - the absolute FARCE(us) that was the 2020 suspect test, and that I genuinely think Farceus is a better metagame from a competitive standpoint, casting aside my own preference for regular DPP Ubers. If it were up to me, we'd have dual representation in all/most DPP or Ubers related events, but that probably means more work, if it had to happen, I would painfully cast aside regular DPP Ubers for Farceus.

Anyway, here's everything in greater detail

shambolic 2020 vote

Problems with the suspect test itself

voters

Just a disclaimer and I'll clarify this. Many of you would know I was very pissed off about not being given a vote for the 2020 vote even though I made semi-finals of the initial Farceus tour because I thought semi-finals locked in a vote. Unfortunately it wasn't Nayrz (who was TL at the time) that told me that, but Staxi, and while I love Staxi (iirc he was council back then? maybe), what he says is probably not the last word. So - apologies to Nayrz if he's still around and I'll take back all the shit about random last minute criteria changes that I directed at him.

Regardless - one of the problems with the suspect test are the people who qualified and didn't qualify -> as you can see by the above picture, I was one of the players who thought I qualified to vote and was deemed not eligible because the tour that I thought I qualified through needed finals appearance and not semis. Another player (who will not be named because he's permabanned) who played UPL 8 extensively through that tour was an avid Farceus enjoyer and expected to vote to keep Farceus and unfortunately got banned right at the end of UPL, and that would have been a couple of votes that would have counted toward keeping Farceus in the tier. On the other hand, the ban-voters had players like BKC and Stone_Cold (no disrespect to either of those players) who had no active Farceus tour credentials at the time since they qualified purely from UPL 7 which was regular DPP Ubers only and did not reach any qualification criteria where Farceus was involved (recognising that BKC was the main driver for the Farceus vote in the first place and Stone_Cold was Dracovish manager so both still had extensive experience, but not strictly tournament playing experience which was used). The voter pool was compromised as a result, and with a result as close as it was, that's a very questionable result and any reasonable suspect test should been either repeated or thrown out.

60% vs 2/3

One pretty specific change to the voting for the Farceus suspect test was the fact that it needed a 60% cut-off to ban. While that may already seem like a high-bar, keep in mind that every single suspect test in Ubers has a 2/3 supermajority requirement. This included all the ones held in 2020, with the exception of the BW Evasion Clause suspect, which was also 60%. I don't know why Naryz picked 60% for the old gens votes. Maybe there was a tier-specific or numbers-specific reason (eg numbers were mentioned in Nayrz's post on Evasion suspect because there weren't many players who qualified or voted), but regardless, there was no reason for why 60% was picked for Farceus when every other modern Ubers suspect test was 2/3.
This decreases the legitimacy of the vote given all of our other votes had a different threshold. Ubers threshold, for a long time now, has been 2/3. While it didn't change much for Evasion Clause (there was like 83% ban vote for that one), it very much mattered here because Farceus only got 62.5% - this is despite the change of voting requirements, despite the players voting not having to have met the requirements for playing in Farceus metagames (as mentioned). Despite all the bias (whether intentional or not) present in the voting pool, it cannot reach the standard 66.7% threshold that standard Ubers suspect tests require today.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...d-or-suffer-the-divine-wrath-of-arceus.62722/ => 2009-2010 current gen Ubers standard

So basically, you either judge this on modern Ubers tiering standards which is 2/3 majority, which this does not pass, or you judge this on 2010 mentality (see above link), which prohibits shit from being banned at all. Either way, it should have been a 2/3 majority to ban Arceus since it never fairly had a test, and the only "fair" test this underwent had the level of bullshit that it did. I liken it to Bush vs Gore 2000 levels of closeness, so if anyone thinks it was a clear vote they're being disingenuous.

Okay, with my complaining of the 2020 vote out of the way, lets get into more metagame-related things and which are more relevant. At the end of the day, what matters to tiering (at least now) is 1) metagame is competitive/stable and 2) metagame is enjoyable. The first one has concrete things you can argue, the second one is subjective. Again, to me, I think (1) is in the favour of Farceus and (2) is in favour of regular.

Why I think Farceus is competitively a better metagame:

volatility

Farceus is less volatile -> Regular DPP Ubers is really volatile. This comes two-fold - there's a lot of matchup and lead fishing that goes into the tier, while hax also plays a big factor in games. While it's possible to build something "solid", there's still a lot of things that you're going to have to soft-check because it's not possible to cover everything. MU fishing being prevalent unfortunately not a good hallmark of a metagame, and while it's fun, it's not a healthy thing. Farceus tends to be a bit more balance based, and it's easier to build solid structures like because some of the deficient structures in regular are filled with an Arceus forme. The classic on is something like Skarmbliss in regular - you have to play very correctly vs mixed Dragons and it's hard to really solidly beat something like a MixRay or Mixed Dialga for example. With Arceus around, having something like a support Ghostceus which really help ease predictions for you. This is just one example, but there are a lot of situations where having an Arceus forme helps ease prediction and decrease impact of high stakes predictions. This gives players a bit more room to manoeuvre.

interesting options only possible in a farceus meta

Farceus is unique in all the Arceus metagames because of its EV restrictions and therefore most importantly, its Speed tier. This means there's a host of Pokemon that actually some niche in this metagame when in regular they're kind of overlooked. You'd probably almost never see Infernape or Gengar in regular (okay you do but they are much much worse), Scarftar is much less viable while it is excellent in Farceus. Ditto to Scarf Metagross. Other mons that are interesting in the setting of Farceus are things that check specific Arceus formes getting the limelight. Something like Sableye is actually fringe and niche and cool (while being absolutely worthless in regular), you can run random fat Psychic and Poison types like Grumpig and Swalot are all potentially usable because of their ability to check Fightceus while bringing some other cool applications to the table.
Sure - you can say some things are worse too, but like have you seen what some of those things are? They're stuff like Dialga, Ray, Palkia - things that we don't really need to be better.

roles filled by Farceus formes that can't be done in regular

Key things that Farceus provides that regular Ubers really needs:
- A true mixed Dragon switch-in - as mentioned in the above example - something like MixRay has not true switch-in. The closest things you're going to get are like Cresselia, but even that gets 2HKOed by Draco Meteor, and something like Lugia loses to Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock. Heatran also works but it's generally 1) on select teams (sun) and 2) EQ and Brick Break still appear on MixRay sets so not totally safe either. You really need to be able to hope you get your own Stealth Rock up to limit Ray switch-ins and distribute your damage out like get some damage on Support Groudon, or switch Blissey or a Steel into Draco Meteor (risk getting Outraged or Fire Blasted). A wrong prediction can mean your key Pokemon is just gone, and unfortunately nothing truly can switch into MixRay. Mixed Dialga is similar. In Farceus - Arc-Ghost can always switch into Draco Meteor outside of a crit if it's healthy and avoid getting 2HKOed. The standard Arc-Fighting/Ground risks getting 2HKOed by Draco + Espeed, but at least you can tank one to protect your core, and have a chance to come back later and Recover off the damage.
- An decent offensive Steel-type - I've whined repeatedly about the lack of good Steel-types in regular Ubers. To summarise - all the Steels in regular Ubers either sap offensive momentum (eg Bronzong and defensive defensive Steels like Forretress and Skarmory or fat Jirachi that is usually Groudon setup bait) or just very mediocre mons in general (Scizor, Lucario, Metagross), or is a Scarf Jirachi (which is not bad but a lot of the time it doesn't discourage Dragon spam all all). With Farceus - Steelceus is a fantastic Steel-type that avoid being a momentum sink because it can threaten things straight away, setup in 2 different ways, or click Roar to shuffle Spikes damage. Having a good Steel-type makes the Dragon spamming a bit more manageable
- A spinblocker that doesn't sap offensive momentum - I've recently written a 3 part exploration on Ghost-types in DPP Ubers so I'm not going to this in too much detail (see here, here and here), but essentially, we literally only have Giratina-O as a an offensive spinblocker, and it's actually a bit of a momentum sink (see the first part of that exploration) because of how easily it is threatened by more absurd offensive threats. There are other very fringe and very niche options (which I detail in part 2 and 3). Ghostceus, on the other hand, is very solid offensively (even though it still has problems) but a lot less weak against common Dragon types that rule the tier.
- A true special Fighting or Ground-type, and by extension, a non-Groudon Bulk Up Dialga counter -> this affects a few different archetypes, most notably rain BO/defensive. Fat Bulk Up Dialga is very often a game winner against fat rain because they don't have anything that really does enough damage to it outside of like Palkia and Giratina-O who can't really KO it. There aren't any really good direct ways and you have to resort to getting a lot residual hazard damage onto it and positioning something to put overwhelming damage to it when it's sleeping or before it gets to Rest, and this is often really hard to do. Your only other of good Ground or Fighitng-type that doesn't instantly die to +1 Outrage is like... Lucario, which by all measures of this current metagame is lackluster at best.
- The above also means we pretty much have very close to a true Dialga counter, since the only real way Dialga can beat Fight or Groundceus is through shit like Thunder Wave hax, maybe Toxic and Protect stalling or Specs Roar of Time (lol). No such thing exists in regular since you can still smash things like Blissey with Bulk Up Outrage, CB Outrage while it has all the coverage to take down everything else.
- A decent Perish Song user - similar to the Bulk Up Dialga story -> a lot of modern regular DPP lack counterplay to last mon mono-attackers (think SubCM Giratina-A, SubCM Ho-oh, yes - Bulk Up Dialga too) and quite frankly can't fit counterplay even if they wanted to because they just can't fit the slot in. Think Eclipse, Highlord Rain Stall, sunstall with Lugia - what can these teams even replace with a Perish Song user? Against something like Bulk Up Dialga or the rarer CM mono Latias - Trick is an option, but if the BU Dialga has Sub (or against SubCM Gira-A or Ho-oh) then that's not an option either. Arceus gives you a very reliable out against all of these and there's very little opportunity cost to doing it. Something like a support Ghostceus can easily just fit Judgement/Wisp/Perish Song/Recover and fit that role without any difficulty whatsoever. In regular DPP, your best option is like... Celebi, which while has some potential, is a pretty lackluster mon.
- A good non-Kyogre bulky Water - not every team that wants a bulky Water can fit a Kyogre (think sun teams looking to absorb Ho-oh and Heatran but Kyogre would remove weather). Palkia is not really an option because it isn't inherently that defensive, gets totalled by Ho-oh in the sun and lacks recovery and is weak to Dragon moves. With Arceus, Waterceus is actually a pretty low ranked mon and is mostly slandered, but is actually not a bad Ho-oh pivot at all while still being able to pivot into Ogre and out again so give you time to bring sun back in.
- As close to a true Darkrai counter as you'll ever get - I'm starting this off to say that Fightceus is not a true Darkrai counter because if you haven't sleep absorbed, they can still sleep you and set up and win, and Psychic Darkrai also exists, but it is in practice the most solid counter you'll get to Darkrai you can threaten to kill them at any time and they have much less chances to cheese you like they can cheese other things (eg fat Ogre through flinch)
- Another decent Toxic Spikes absorber - Poisonceus is pretty mid to be fair, but if you really want a Toxic Spikes absorber it is very reliable and can do other things outside of just switching to absorb then die. Have you seen the current list of candidates in regular DPP? You have Qwilfish which is pretty rain reliant, Tentacruel which hardly ever fits outside of lead, and a handful of other mediocre stuff - see list here. At least Poisonceus can remove Tspikes, and then you can either threaten to CM sweep something late game or be useful with a support set, at the cost of running a generally better Farceus forme.

some counterarguments

Going to debunk a few common arguments that

Ekiller is broken - this is actually one of those arguments that was used back in 2020 which I personally think is a litmus to check if you actually know anything about modern Farceus at all -> if I see you using this in 2026 it pretty much tells me you know fuck all, really. I don't think anyone who plays Farceus in 2026 believe this. Most people don't even use Ekiller unless you're an HO main like me. There are so many ways to stop Ekiller these days that I don't hardly even register it in my teambuilding threats any more. Most teams have a Fight/Ghost/Steelceus that instantly semi-checks Ekiller already, most of them have something fat like a Groudon, Scarf Dialga is probably the most or 2nd most common Scarfer in the tier, most teams have a fat Steel like Skarm/Forry/Zong that threatens to do nasty things to Ekiller, and on top of that, the fact that it only has 331 Atk means that it hits like a wet noodle even with SD up means that it actually struggles to do much most of the time, and without careful planning around getting rid of its obstacles (which you already do in reg for things like RP Groudon or DD Ray) it is not doing anything significant at all. Most teams are prepared for Ekiller already without needing to put in any effort at all. If anything, Ekiller's presence is actually a positive one because it offers offense teams (which are viable but far worse in Farceus) a defensive option that doesn't slow down your momentum because Espeed is so useful for offense teams to speed check things.

Spikes is more important - I mean, this is true even for reg Ubers, but this is pretty subjective on whether that it's definitely a good or bad thing. I'm sure some people find the extra emphasis on Spikes a good thing. Like would you say BW is terrible even though lots of games start literally with 2 Ferrothorns facing each other and setting up 3 layers of Spikes then Knocking each other's Leftovers off before any game is played?
Anyway, despite the format getting an extra great spinblocker (Ghostceus), spinning is not necessarily more difficult in Farceus than in regular DPP Ubers, mainly because of the pace of the game. Regular tends to be much faster, so opportunity is arguably less for you to spin because everything threatens a sweep so quickly. In Farceus, the game tends to run a lot slower, so you get a chance to breathe a spin a lot more. Ghostceus is actually relatively hazard weak itself so like Forry actually has a decent MU against it because you Toxic it on the switch-in and it comes into a layer of Rocks and Spikes it's not spinblocking for very long...

Calm Mind wars - yes this is a problem and it's definitely worse in Farceus than in reg, but hey - it still happens commonly enough in reg Ubers with stupid fat shit Mewtwo anyway. That being said, if your answer to CM Arceus is your own CM Arceus you probably need to do something about your team (like adding Twave and Taunt, using Ho-oh, using CM Kyogre, adding a CM Latias which stomps a lot of CM Arc formes, using PERISH SONG which Farceus now makes possible, etc etc). But yes - it is a legit complaint but there are definitely ways to minimise it.

Anyway, thanks Oreo - I spent a whole day working on this even though the 2020 suspect test section I had done already before this :(
If you really want a tl;dr of my position (as a person who plays both reg and Farceus extensively) is that I think Farceus is by competitive metrics (and therefore SHOULD be by extension policy) a richer and more competitive metagame and if we were serious about tiering policy should have been the default DPP metagame 16 years ago when HGSS came out. It is only through inertia and preference (which I will be perfectly willing to accept that I'm part of this) that we are in this position where the current regular DPP metagame is the default and continues to be the default. Again, in terms of personal preference I like the current situation more because I like reg over Farceus, but if we're really honest with ourselves and tiering policy, we're not doing the right thing. Ideally we have dual representation because to lose regular DPP Ubers would be a huge shame but if we had to pick one over the other, I'm a man of principle and I'd pick Farceus. There is what is right and what is convenient/fun.

 

[carbene]

farc deserves more presentation but totally unban is too wild. reg dpp and farc are very different tiers, they have different feature mons and playstyles. both formats are good and removing either one is a loss. why farc is considered as "small player base" is just b/c it doesnt have much presentation in competitive scenes. hence, we could add more farc tours

at least we should open a suspect test for those who love farc have a chance to enjoy this tier again

Dr. Shrange: we need good image

 

[Nineveh]

As Jabba points out, are we meant to make a tier enjoyable for people that played it a decade ago or for the people playing it in current day? Farceus vote is about to turn 6 years old this year and players have changed. We got 2020 Ban and DNB voters quitting, some of them still playing with their mind possibly changed and we also got people with join dates post 2020 that are active today and have a very much educated opinion on whether Farceus should be free or not, so why should we still listen to the oldest group?

Farceus being an actively played metagame in the Ubers Community AND during multiple tournaments (it's quite literally awarding points for Ubers Ribbon?) is a testimony of how functional and liked the tier is. No one is still playing SS Ubers + Zacian-C for the very same reason we are not seeing a thread to free it within the next years. We are not even going blind into what we assume would be a positive change for the tier, we have the resources, and players that already KNOW they like it. Give its players a chance at least.

On a side note, I might be very out of the loop with both DPP and Farceus meta, but I highly doubt it's overwhelmingly busted now. Saying Ghostceus "makes any prospects of getting spins off die in a fire" is very misleading - spinning is hardly a thing in DPP Ubers to begin with, and in fact Ghostceus doesn't exacerbate the situation for a few reasons; it's grounded/weak to hazards, and the only forry set that has any chance of spinning at all (toxic + tect) can actually contend with it. Keep in mind that forry gets more turns in farceus, and ghostceus can't always fit coverage for it, especially on support sets - giratina-O in standard will always have some kind of coverage for it, and forry typically gets beaten down first by thunder + spikes against HO. The plethora of things annoying Ekiller (including the fact it loses to every other popular Arc) still seem to be used. I was of the opinion that Farceus was not broken in 2020 and reading this post comforts me in the idea it still isn't today.

farc deserves more presentation but totally unban is too wild. reg dpp and farc are very different tiers, they have different feature mons and playstyles. both formats are good and removing either one is a loss. why farc is considered as "small player base" is just b/c it doesnt have much presentation in competitive scenes. hence, we could add more farc tours

at least we should open a suspect test for those who love farc have a chance to enjoy this tier again

Dr. Shrange: we need good image

View attachment 825619
View attachment 825620

Click to collapse...

It's hard to expect more representation of Farceus without outright it replacing current DPP Ubers I believe. Ubers Winter League III only managed to fit it because every gen had 2 slots, and now DPP PL is cutting the Farceus slot mostly because it cannot sustain two different Ubers slots (Kristyl's words, not mine). The yearly Farceus cup is ultimately a very low stakes tournament, with low interest outside of players that already like it - it does not even have the added benefit of being a qualifier to Ubers Classic like DPP Cup is. People will always gravitate more towards the tier being played in big tours like UPL and I doubt it's very feasible to just include both in this.

 

[Fc]

Only my opinions not actual tiering decision. Finally able to make a post here, and I'm gonna say that I disagree with this thread and would not want to unban arceus. A few years ago I probably would have said the opposite, and I was always willing to allow another farceus PR thread once I became TL since I can acknowledge the thoughts of the playerbase and the previous suspect test being a little weird. That said, The reason to retest this is ultimately just preference, since this tier is over 15 years old at this point and we've tried arceus before, so it just goes through phases of what people prefer. As of now I'd just say that I prefer regular dpp, and wouldn't vote to unban arceus. I've been playing a lot more dpp recently for revival, and I find it to be an okay metagame right now. I'm not a stranger to farceus either I made finals of the last farceus tour, but can't say it makes a meaningful improvement to dpp in my eyes to warrant such a change. If I would say arceus is broken is a different story, I think it definitely can be argued since all the different sets it has warps the metagame an insane amount, and with its versatility sometimes you can just lose to it, but each individual type maybe not. Arguing something objective here is gonna be kinda unimportant for me I think since it seems the opinion is split as is on if it's broken or not, then even past that it's split on if people actually like arceus regardless of how they think it is competitively. There's no concrete way to put it other than preference for me, and I think I prefer reg dpp while also thinking farc doesn't make a meaningful enough improvement while being potentially polarizing to warrant an unban.

 

[Highlord]

It's difficult to objectively determine whether standard DPP Ubers or Arceus DPP Ubers is superior—i.e., which better favors builder creativity and in-game decision-making in a way that rewards the more competent player. My personal stance is that Arceus stabilizes matchup variance and requires more calculated positioning for progression, but I think people in the Arceus camp sometimes overlook how the element of surprise and builder techs (aspects more relevant in standard DPP Ubers) also reward the more skilled player. If I had to bet which is "objectively" better, I’d put my money on Arceus.

But rather than speculating about metagame dynamics, it’s more practical to focus on tiering framework, which suggests we should aim to be as inclusive as possible without significantly harming competitiveness. It is clear that Arceus is not broken, and concerns from the previous vote, such as "Ekiller is broken" or "matchups devolve into whose Arceus typing is better," appear to be unfounded based on recent metagame developments. Moreover, DPP Ubers (both Arceus and standard) has evolved tremendously over the past five years to maximize consistency, to the point where I’d estimate that 90–99% of teams created before 2021 can’t compete with the consistency of modern builds. From this perspective, a retest, and consequentially an unban is warranted.

As for players who want to preserve the DPP Ubers they love, I mean get it. I’ve been involved with DPP Ubers continuously since 2015, playing thousands of games in a tier that doesn’t even have a ladder. It still makes me sad to see things like Bulk Up Dialga becoming more niche after Arceus’s inclusion, and to think that the hundreds of teams I’ve built over the years would become obsolete. That said, I also believe in embracing change and focusing on the present. A retest is definitely the correct step to take.

EDIT:
PS: If you feel that certain Arceus forms are genuinely broken, I'd like to see replays and/or team-building trends showcasing this. After winning two annual Arceus tours and going 8-1 across two DPPPLs, nothing felt overbearing on the builder besides maybe Ho-oh, which ironically is overbearing in standard too. Also, the notion that Skarmory rose out of necessity to combat Ekiller is completely wrong, and you can check the latest Arceus tour to verify that the usage rate isn't crazy. A more nuanced take is that Arceus forms can sponge powerful hits from Dragons, so you have the luxury to use a Steel that does poorly into Thunder. In standard, we're forced to use Bronzong at alarmingly high usage rates to solve this. And to be completely honest, Bronzong and Forretress are around the same level as Skarmory with Arceus legal, if not better.

EDIT #2:
Reread LBN's post above and wow, just about every comment he made about the metagame is outdated, flat out wrong, or misleading. Not a fan of elitism but that's the type of post that makes me reconsider it lol. My ranked teammates type shit.

 

[Taka]

Since discussion has died down, just wanted to tag players who would potentially be interested to contribute to this topic before we take further action:

Tags for those who didn't post already

Tagged all players who got 2 or more wins in the following tours in either DPP Ubers or DPP Farceus:
UWC IV
Ainzcrad
Django
Piyu
TyCarter
eldids
evakiyama!
shrang
Ulti Bastion

UPL XIII
Highlord
squinn
robjr
Dave

UWTT III Ubers
Milkshook
FatFighter2

UWTT III Farceus
rookierobbie
Seldanna


UPL XII
Inspirited
susciety
London Beats
64 Squares

DPPPL V Ubers
crying
Plague
LBN
Lasen
eden

DPPPL V Farceus
Evuelf
Mashing
JabbaTheGriffin
magialice
Planet
oreo guy

DPP Ubers Cup X - Quarterfinals
Spreek
mipc
mitana
sylvea
Supraz

DPP Ubers Cup IX - Quarterfinals
Indulge in dreams
gephicka

DPP Farceus Tour V - Quarterfinals
Remnonc
Dry Defender
jjjnkn
DKM
Premonitions

 

[magialice]

i think farceus would be good to have in dpp ubers, i enjoy the bulky skarmbliss balance games that the tier has and it does feel more varied than current dpp ubers. i dont have much else to add sorry

 

[gephicka]

personally i greatly prefer building and playing farc as it feels much more dynamic & skill-based to me. i prefer the dynamics arceus introduces to the tier and how it stabilizes an otherwise highly volatile and matchup-reliant tier. i definitely don't think arceus is actually broken by any metric— especially not any based on ubers tiering.

dont have much else to say, free farceus

 

[eden]

farc ubers is a diff tier imo

ultimately whatever everyone says is just pref end of the day - i'm all for keeping it as is

 

[Premonitions]

Hey everyone!

I personally, really enjoy playing farceus. I do understand that it is a big shift from the current DPP Ubers. One of the things that got me into playing ubers as a whole was watching replays from dpppl and being inspired by how creative people could get with teams and the skill expression that came with that. I would randomly make teams for like the ROA spotlight tour and the yearly farceus circuit tour that felt like I was having a level of fun that just seemed out of reach with base DPP Ubers. Things didn't feel rigid or sometimes fustrating. Really unique comps that are possible with farceus felt like exploring a new map in a video game for the first time and then it becomes something that you enjoy going to everytime you pick up the game. I would support farceus.

Thanks!

 

[Bobsican]

Not that I'm a Gen 4 player or have any authority here (so this is just my opinion), but I'd want to add some food for thought:

For some reason everyone is acting like the only possible outcomes to consider at all are either Arceus as a whole being banned or unbanned, but looking at more recent tiering precedents there's some more nuance to consider for it, more specifically, strictly speaking each Arceus forme is tiered independently, case in point, look no further than Silvally, a Pokemon with a type-changing gimmick directly inspired from our favorite llama stuck on a fence (and exact same movepool / abilities / stats across formes bar a type-changing signature move), having formes across different tiers.

Therefore, just freeing most of them should be a fair alternative, for example a ton of counterpoints against freeing Arceus focus quite a lot on Extreme Killer, so if Arceus formes are freed except for the Normal-type one, then it'd be possible to reach an approach that satisfies more of the userbase than an all-or-nothing direction would.

 

[Fc]

For some reason everyone is acting like the only possible outcomes to consider at all are either Arceus as a whole being banned or unbanned

Click to collapse...

They are the only options we are considering for this test

 

[Emeral]

The current Ubers metagame is limited to specific team compositions and structures. Not necessarily a bad thing; but I suppose unbanning it would make the metagame more diverse and lets say... colorful.
Balance kind of teams will be able to breath for real without feeling broken is my point of view. I also believe that the set that was controversial at the time; E-killer was high over rated and in current standards is much more manageable. Still gonna be an immense threat, but it will require specific planing and skillfull plays / teambuilding which is alright. Surely Arceus will be the strongest mon in the tier overall, but all of his forms are different pokemons, enabling different kind of strategies and playstyles which would be cool to see.
Obivously this opinion is purely subjective and im not trying to influence any of you.
From my spectator point of view; unbanning arceus would possibly make it more entertaining to watch.

 

[Taka]

hello, also entirely posting own opinion here separate of ubers tiering; I don't have a particularly nuanced take, but I have played DPP Ubers and Farceus to relative success over the last few years while helping support the slot over a few UPLs. I don't think either side is necessarily wrong in wanting a specific version of DPP to exist, but I generally do enjoy the builder variety and pace of the metagame that comes with Farceus over current DPP. I can understand why others don't, but this is purely preference on my end that as both an occasional player and viewer, Farceus has felt more enjoyable. I think at minimum, between no action and a vote to free Arceus, I would prefer to take action and judge how the current playerbase / voterbase feels about the tier.

I would like to clarify that any sort of action is not wholly set or permanent. At the end of the day, Arceus is always going to cause a large shift in not only the tier, but the people who desire to play it. The actions taken would include not only an initial vote to free Arceus, but an additional re-test in a few months to follow up with the playerbase and see how it feels. Whether or not freeing Arceus is correct, this suspect will allow us to observe any potential changes for an extended period of time.

 

[Inspirited]

Hi. I have no wish to rob people of places to play match-up meteors if they want to. However, I do wish for more places to play Farceus as the couple times it is represented usually come at very bad points of the year for me (outside of DPPPL before this year).

If it wasn't clear by the last statement, I greatly dislike standard at the moment. No set of teams is solid enough to stop match-up from winning far too many games by itself or by giving such a big advantage that play aimed at clawing back ground almost doesn't matter. Deoxys-S is one of the biggest causes of this issue. Arceus does seem to fix this to where when I lose a game, I have done something wrong to have earned that loss beyond clicking the challenge or find a battle button. There is far more to both of these points but that is beyond the scope of this thread I think.

 

[Spreek]

Been holding off on writing anything here until I got a bit more experience with Farc. I'm a newcomer to both tiers so I don't necessarily have the benefit of all the history, but on the other hand I think I have a good idea of what it is like to learn both Farc and Reg in 2026.

A few observations first then my thoughts:

1. Farceus has an unusually active and passionate playerbase for what is effectively an OM. In particular, there are a substantial number of players who like Farc and don't like Reg. There is an asymmetry here where most people who prefer Reg have only a slight preference and many people who prefer Farc have a very strong preference. This may include a number of players who don't play Farc currently due to its unofficial status but would play it if it were the default and included in UPL, DPPPL, etc.

2. The split is causing problems. It's harder to find games in the format that you want to play/practice teams in, the resources are often split between the two sometimes in jarring ways (experienced DPP ubers players are usually fluent in both and switch easily between the two, but it is not so easy to follow sometimes. picture someone writing 4 paragraphs in Spanish, then 1 in Portuguese, then back to Spanish, etc.), its a pain to maintain a builder with two sets of teams, there's a significantly higher workload for someone trying to pick up the tier(s) etc.

3. It seems as though the past votes were held at a time when Reg was held in extremely high regard, maybe an impossibly high standard held up by nostalgia and rose tinted glasses. Something to be preserved at all costs. Today, I think there is a far more mixed view of Reg. At a minimum, we can say that people recognize it has both good aspects and bad aspects as a metagame.

4. To the extent that we should care about history/continuity, the metagame of Reg has shifted so much since 2019 that oldheads experience/meta knowledge/teams from before that era is unlikely to be of much use.

5. Without the historical quirks and context, there is little doubt in my mind that Farceus would be the default. It doesn't remotely approach the power levels or unhealthiness that define other mons typically banned from Ubers tiers, particularly from this era.

---

My thoughts:

I like both metagames. There is certainly a charm to the faster paced and more "builder tech" heavy Reg meta, though I think it has demonstrated a concerning trend of polarizing heavily between hard offense and hard stall that is historically a warning sign for a detiorating meta. There were a lot of creative teams in the recent DPP Ubers Revival tournament and I think concerns of it being extremely stale are probably unfounded at the moment. Farceus maybe has a little less of the magic of DPP ubers, but also is generally more competitive in my view. Games are less often decided by RNG or 95-5 on preview.

That being said, with observations 1-5 above, I think that I (and anyone else in a similar spot that likes both metagames around equally) should vote to Unban.

 

[shrang]

So this thread has been up for almost 3 months now, and while I know our Farceus community is probably one of the laziest on the planet, it seems like there's quite decent reception to Farceus from the look of this thread? I count 14 posts either for or neutral to Farceus and only 2 posts that really are "against" or clearly "I prefer regular DPP over Farceus" from the posts that we have so far.
I think when we were discussing this with Fc earlier that we were thinking of doing this in stages, where if there's enough interest that we open to polling for a suspect, then there would be a proper suspect test if passes that poll? Is this still the case? Like I get there aren't many posts in here in general but we got ORAS Ubers BP moved through much faster and they didn't need a double process.

Anyway, just to add a bit more to this discussion - I've been playing reg and Farceus on a regular competitive basis for probably the last 2-3 months or so in some way or another, and it really cements to me that Farceus is just less volatile compared to reg DPP. The last couple of rounds that I've played in the Farceus Tournament that's happening at the moment I've had a good going amount of hax but I feel it's been a bit more possible for me to claw back and win those games. Yes, I've also had some stupid game ending hax in the Grand Tour PL that's been going on too but by and large I feel that's just more wriggle room for hax in Farceus.

Anyway, back to what we're here for - Fc Taka are we okay to move this along to the next step?

 

[Fc]

Mentioned it in DPP Ubers cord but will post here as well, we've been discussing things behind the scenes and will have a proper response after UPL concludes. Looking like we will go forward with the first vote, but to avoid conflict with the 2 biggest team tours for DPP Ubers (upl and dpppl), we've waited a bit to expand the voter pool and also not possibly change a format like this mid tournament given it's an old gen and how big a shake up this would be.

I don't think it was mentioned anywhere but after speaking with tiering admins, should a vote happen, it would go this way:

the first vote would happen soon, in which it would be a supermajority needed to unban arceus. In which case we will give it a trial period (probably 1 or 2 years, undecided and depends on number of tournaments) for people to play the tier, get accustomed to the new metagame for comparisons with the old one, and to build a voter pool of people who've actually played farceus.

A second vote would then follow on if the playerbase wants to keep arceus in the tier after that trial period, which would finalize the state of dpp ubers.

I think the points raised in the OP about the process of the last suspect test are very fair, despite all the people who voted generally knowing what they were talking about with dpp ubers, you didn't actually have to play a single game of farceus to vote in the last one. The two stage voting that this test would have looks to remove that issue, giving tournaments enough time to run with farceus and only giving reqs to those who have actually played the metagame. This is similar to how in current gen suspect tests you must ladder in a metagame with the pokemon already in it if you want to suspect something back in, since the only way to truly ensure people understand and form personal beliefs on the state of the metagame while playing, and aren't just voting on preconceived notions about what arceus may be like in their heads.

Full news will follow the conclusion of UPL as we still iron out a few things and finalize a voter pool as mentioned. More posts are always welcome and encouraged, of course. This has always been a very controversial topic so as many opinions as possible are good, since we want to do what the current playerbase wants the most and also finally have a definitive test run by the proper methods through every stage.

 

[Taka]

Ubers has decided to continue with a suspect vote on Arceus in DPP Ubers.

Qualifying Requirements:
The following requirements will determine our voter pool:
- Won at least 2 games of DPP Ubers in Ubers Premier League XIV, XIII or XII
- Won at least 2 games of DPP Ubers in Ubers World Cup IV
- Won at least 2 games of DPP Ubers / Farceus in Ubers Winter Team Tournament III
- Won at least 2 games of DPP Ubers / Farceus in DPPPL V or DPPPL VI
- Placed in top 8 of DPP Ubers Cup IX or DPP Ubers Cup X
- Placed in top 8 of DPP Farceus Tour VI or DPP Farceus Tour V

Voter Tags

UWC IV
Ainzcrad
Django
Piyu
TyCarter
eldids
evakiyama!
shrang
Ulti Bastion

UPL XIV
magialice
robjr
Spreek
carbene
Dave

UPL XIII
Highlord
squinn

UWTT III Ubers
Milkshook
FatFighter2

UWTT III Farceus
rookierobbie
Seldanna

UPL XII
Inspirited
susciety
London Beats
64 Squares

DPPPL VI Ubers
LBN
DonBoneJones
Splendid Silver Star
awyp
Mashing

DPPPL V Ubers
crying
Plague
Lasen
eden

DPPPL V Farceus
Evuelf
JabbaTheGriffin
magialice
Planet
oreo guy

DPP Ubers Cup X - Quarterfinals
Spreek
mipc
mitana
Song of Fallen
Supraz

DPP Ubers Cup IX - Quarterfinals
Indulge in dreams
gephicka

DPP Farceus Tour V - Quarterfinals
Remnonc
Dry Defender
jjjnkn
DKM
Premonitions

DPP Farceus Tour VI - Quarterfinals
Proszz
Yelou
LifeOnEnceladus
EB

A supermajority (>=66%, at least 34 out of 51 votes if everyone voted) will be required to unban Arceus. Following a successful supermajority vote, Arceus will be unbanned for a trial period of 1 year and then revoted on.

The suspect vote will be open from now until <t:1788753540:f>

https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/246

 

[Luigi]

i won more than 2 dpp ubers games in the last uwc and am not in the list. I think the spreadsheet stopped being updated after round 1 so you need to double check it