OU Are weather teams viable?

[morty123]

Auto-weather in later gens is preferable, sunny day/rain dance requires set-up in this gen, so its not as atractive.
Still, im a bit surprised that smogon doesnt recomend weather on any OU sets around, i mean, its gen 2, everything is bulky, surely there are ways to set up weather reliably?

Wouldnt something like Raikou/Zapdos behind rain +hp ice/water be kinda busted? Even Snorlax would think twice before switching into 2 guaranteed thunders+spikes damage, blissey doesnt see that much play in gen 2, last i've heard.

Anyone found sucess with weather teams in OU?

 

[Deleted User 108547]

Weather as known in newer gens doesn't really work (or at least, I've not heard of any successful team with that concept). What I've seen, although infrequently, is mono weather pokemon i.e. Charizard/Houndoom sunny day + solar beam + STAB fire or defensive Omastar with sandstorm and spikes support.

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

Charizard is more commonly used as a Belly Drummer without Sunny Day. Houndoom uses it occasionally (less than half of the time I would guess). Moltres is probably the best dedicated Sunny Day sweeper in GSC. Entei also uses it pretty much always. Not sure about Typhlosion. I linked the smogon analysis as Sunny Day is indeed listed as recommendation for some of these mons.
As Kaisser mentioned, Sandstorm has been tried e.g. by Conflict in this SPL game but don't expect to see it very often.
I once messed around with a rain team but it worked only mediocre.
For the future I think it is better to ask questions like this in the "Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer" thread.

Edit: one of issues with the rain team was that you are also boosting the accuracy of opposing Thunder and your electrics still get walled by opposing Raikou no matter what. Mons like Vaporeon benefit from the additional attack power under rain, but hate the 100% accurate Thunders from the electrics that are checking it and could also just boost up with Growth.

 

[Heika]

Only use of rain dance, I'm aware of, was on a growth pass team that Lavos used in spl 9 against Conflict, rain dance allowed +5 mystic water starmie to ohko snorlax with Surf.
I'd say the main issue with rain and sun is that they are boosting specially oriented moves, and snorlax being what he is to the tier, those boost most of the time end up not being enough to break thrue, thus a team build around those weither will often have some issue with him. And no one want his team to be lax weak.

 

[morty123]

Snorlax can still die to strong thunders or other boosted special moves though, but its a great special sponge.
I can see why rain dance isnt used in OU now though, as someone mentioned, Raikou hard-walls rain team, sunny day seems to have more potential.

 

[chengduoldsuperbro成都老超哥]

most use is sunnyday

 

[wyc2333]

according to some top GSCers in chinese community including chengduoldsuperbro成都老超哥 above, sunny day teams are the most viable weather teams. among mons that use sunny day, Moltres ranks C2 in GSC OU Viability Rankings in 2020.

| 29 | Moltres | 2 | 2.08% | 100.00% |

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-476239
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-475638

 

[asbdsp]

Hmm, I would say that sandstorm could have some potential, as it does do 1/8 damage per turn, unlike later gens where it only does 1/16. But I've never tried it, and I can't remember anyone else who has. It seems "neat".

 

[Hipmonlee]

TSS existed in GSC before ADV came out. It was a popular style back before people knew how to win games.

I mean I wasnt ever a great GSCer but it always seemed terrible to me. Doesn't mean it couldn't be made to work nowadays.

 

[Empress Mobile]

TSS existed in GSC before ADV came out. It was a popular style back before people knew how to win games.

I mean I wasnt ever a great GSCer but it always seemed terrible to me. Doesn't mean it couldn't be made to work nowadays.

I have to agree that it seems like a pretty underwhelming strategy. I know some of these teams were anchored by Omastar which really struggles with many Lax variants as well as both of the Electrics (and even Jolteon for that matter). The fact that Toxic Skarmory was often the status spreader of choice didn't help matters at all, especially since neither Cloyster nor Forretress can really help much on this matter. Running an emergency Lax check like Machamp or Steelix would really only serve to worsen the playstyle's matchup against Suicune and Vaporeon.

 

[zf]

This thread got me thinking a bit. classic Sandstorm teams in GSC have primarily focused on defensive play and using multiple sandstorm-immune pokemon - omastar, skarm, forre, piloswine...

What if there’s an approach we’ve been ignoring this entire time? Sandstorm in ADV is largely an offensive tool - it keep bulky setup mons in check (CurseLax, CM Cune) and makes chip damage more permanent on non-immunes - it’s why Pert is ranked higher than Milotic and why CMspams will often lead TTar. Offense needs permanent chip damage and defensive teams need to avoid it as much as possible.

So what if we port that offense-enabling concept over to GSC? The first mon that pops into my mind is Nidoking, as it appreciates chip and is immune to sand. As a 4th slot, Sandstorm enables Nido to 3HKO Lax and Cune, and certainly makes the Zap interaction more skewed in Nido’s favor. I think this could be worth exploring on Nido teams where it would usually run Roar + 3 atks. I guess it could also be interesting with a more “classic” setter a la Omastar to generate offense - Thunder Lax that beat Oma are generally not RestTalk variants that play well against Nido.

This probably can apply to other special sweepers too, although I can’t think of any that should dedicate a slot to running Sandstorm other than Nidoking.

 

[Empress Mobile]

This thread got me thinking a bit. classic Sandstorm teams in GSC have primarily focused on defensive play and using multiple sandstorm-immune pokemon - omastar, skarm, forre, piloswine...

What if there’s an approach we’ve been ignoring this entire time? Sandstorm in ADV is largely an offensive tool - it keep bulky setup mons in check (CurseLax, CM Cune) and makes chip damage more permanent on non-immunes - it’s why Pert is ranked higher than Milotic and why CMspams will often lead TTar. Offense needs permanent chip damage and defensive teams need to avoid it as much as possible.

So what if we port that offense-enabling concept over to GSC? The first mon that pops into my mind is Nidoking, as it appreciates chip and is immune to sand. As a 4th slot, Sandstorm enables Nido to 3HKO Lax and Cune, and certainly makes the Zap interaction more skewed in Nido’s favor. I think this could be worth exploring on Nido teams where it would usually run Roar + 3 atks. I guess it could also be interesting with a more “classic” setter a la Omastar to generate offense - Thunder Lax that beat Oma are generally not RestTalk variants that play well against Nido.

This probably can apply to other special sweepers too, although I can’t think of any that should dedicate a slot to running Sandstorm other than Nidoking.

I might be missing something, but I feel such a team might have issues with Vaporeon still. Though I think you're right, not outright losing to every Thunder Lax team from the word go is definitely preferable. How do you feel about pairing such a Nidoking with HP Water Zapdos to threaten opposing Rhydon and Steelix that could take advantage of the weather you've set? I think it would also take care of the Vaporeon problem as I think Vaporeon is harder for Nidoking to deal with than is Suicune.

 

[asbdsp]

I agree with the overall thrust that passive TSS style sandstorm is bad, but offensive sandstorm could have more potential. Along those lines, I would say Para should definitely be your status of choice over Tox, on such a team.

 

[Sapientia]

according to some top GSCers in chinese community including chengduoldsuperbro成都老超哥 above, sunny day teams are the most viable weather teams. among mons that use sunny day, Moltres ranks C2 in GSC OU Viability Rankings in 2020.

View attachment 245139
| 29 | Moltres | 2 | 2.08% | 100.00% |

replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-476239
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-475638

Dp you know where I can find teams/replays from chinese players? :)

 

[wyc2333]

Dp you know where I can find teams/replays from chinese players? :)

firstly, u should find chinese players on smogon, like chengduoldsuperbro成都老超哥. secondly, u can search their postings like chengduoldsuperbro成都老超哥's win post in The World Cup of Pokémon 2019 - Qualifying Round (Round 2). thirdly, u can search replays in threads where chinese players posted like replay logs thread of The World Cup of Pokémon 2019 - Qualifying Round.