Are you using the best Gliscor?

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Well, I thought you were only allowed to post new set ideas in the Analysis Workshop, but other users have been putting them here, so why not?


I, like every other user, relied a lot on Garchomp in the ladder. He was my main switch-in to Tyranitar, my back-up Lucario counter, and my unstoppable sweeper. However, when I moved over to the Suspect ladder, I was hard pressed to replace him. No matter what pokemon I put in his place, I had problems with Lucario and Tyranitar. I also lacked a good physical attacker. So what did I do? I looked at the other ground type options.

And then I found Gliscor.


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Gliscor @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
Sand Veil (Hyper Cutter if using Stone Edge)

180 HP / 56 Atk / 56 Def / 218 Spe

-Roost
-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge / Ice Fang / Aerial Ace / X-Scissor

You're probably wondering what makes this any better than the analysis set. The magic is in the EVs.

180 HP EVs yields 336 Hit Points. This provides maximum leftovers recovery, and is very, very close to the Defense stat I coupled it with. This gives it maximum physical bulkiness considering the low EV investment. It is a proven fact that having the HP and Defense close together makes you tougher, and this spread takes advantage of that.

56 Atk EVs hits 240 Attack. Does 50% minimum (202 damage) to 252 HP Tyranitar. This coupled with your speed allows you to counter it much more easily than the 252/252 Impish standard, or the frail 120/0 Jolly version.

56 Def EVs hits 330 Defense points, which is not only a bonus point, but matches up very nicely with the HP stat to take big hits easier. The 252/252 Impish version hits a defense tier of 123.399. This spread hits 121.299.

218 Speed EVs provides 280 Speed. This allows you to outrun Lucario, Heatran, Magnezone, and more. This is crucial. Normally these pokemon would be able to OHKO you with Hidden Power Ice, forcing you to switch out or die. Not anymore. Gliscor turns the tables and can kill those HP Ice SDlukes without taking any significant damage.



The main draw of using this Gliscor over other sets is how it actually threatens your opponent. Most of the time, you send in your fighter, you get walled by Gliscor, you switch out to something that can take a 226 attack Earthquake. Swords Dance Gliscor can make use of those free turns by doubling his attack to a respectable 480, transforming him from a passive wall to a substantial threat. It really screws over stall teams, being immune to Sandstorm, Toxic Spikes, and Spikes, and slowly but surely boosting up until it can defeat the opponent.

The choice of the second attacking move depends on what your team needs. Got Gyarados covered, but worry about Celebi and Salamence? Use Ice Fang. Bulky Fliers giving you nightmares? Use Stone Edge. If floaty psychics are causing problems, X-Scissor can dispatch them. Aerial Ace is a generic catch-all move that gets STAB, but it's a lesser option.

EQ + Ice Fang is walled by Bronzong only.

EQ + Stone Edge is walled by Breloom, Torterra, Bronzong, and Claydol.

EQ and X-Scissor is walled by most Flying types, and many levitators such as Weezing.

EQ and Aerial Ace is walled by Skarmory, Bronzong, Zapdos and Aerodactyl.




I'll stop bragging now. On to the DAMAGE CALCULATIONS. It is important to note that Gliscor outruns all the things that will be hitting it in the following section. This means if Lucario Swords Danced as you switched in, you may be able to take it out without receiving ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.




On the defensive! Gliscor takes hits from:​

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Adamant SDluke Close Combat: 26.79-31.55%. 4HKO. (2HKO after Swords Dance)

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Adamant SD Gallade's Close Combat: 26.79-31.55%. 4HKO.

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Jolly SD Gallade's Ice Punch: 80.36-94.64%. 2HKO. Worst case scenario.

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Adamant CB Heracross Stone Edge: 37.20-44.05%. 3HKO.

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Adamant CB Metagross Meteor Mash: 58.93-69.35%. 2HKO. Do not switch into Metagross unless you are sure you can finish it off with Earthquake.

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Adamant Tyranitar's Stone Edge: 58.63-69.05%. 2HKO. This situation is different, as Roost plus Sand Veil allows you to stall it out easily. You can even Swords Dance in it's face. The odds of a Stone Edge hitting you is only 64%.

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Machamp's Dynamicpunch: 19.35-22.92%. 5HKO.

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Machamp's Ice Punch: 76.19-89.88%. 2HKO. However, you DO survive this. Wow.

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Enemy Gliscor's Ice Fang: 39.58-46.73%. 3HKO.





Offensive Calculations:​

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Earthquake vs 6 HP Lucario: 104.27-122.78%.

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Earthquake vs 6 HP Infernape: 98.63-116.38%.

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Earthquake vs 64 HP Gallade: 69.28-81.57.

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+2 Earthquake on Heracross: 47.44-55.97%.

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+2 Earthquake vs 252 HP Metagross: 95.60-112.64%.

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+2 Earthquake on Blissey: 55.46-65.41%.

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+2 Earthquake vs 252 HP Tyranitar: 99.50-117.33%.

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+2 Earthquake vs 252/252 Bold Vaporeon: 60.34-71.12%.



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+2 Ice Fang vs 252/252 Bold Celebi: 33.66-39.85%.

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+4 Ice Fang: 50.50-59.65%. 80.08% chance to 2HKO.

**And just to show you can Swords Dance in it's face, Celebi's Grass Knot: 24.40-28.87%. 4HKO-5HKO.**

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+2 -1 Ice Fang vs Mixmence: 107.25-126.28%.

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+2 -1 Ice Fang vs 120 HP DDmence: 98.34-115.79%.


There are more interesting things it can beat, though it would take too long to list calculations for all them. Some of the interesting ones are HP Ice Lucario, Non scarfed Heatran, Tentacruel, Skarmory, Togekiss, and other Gliscor. Thanks to it's higher speed and Swords Dance, this Gliscor can make a valuable wall, and a frightening late-game sweeper. With huge defenses, Sand Veil, Roost, and immunity to most passive damage, Gliscor can easily get up three Swords Dances, boosting it's attack to 960, enough to slaughter most walls.

COUNTERS:​

Really bulky Waters can take on Gliscor comfortably. The most significant being Swampert, Slowbro, Suicune, and Cloyster. All of these pokemon take less than 50% from Swords Danced Earthquakes and can kill Gliscor in one or two hits from Ice Beam or Surf. Mamoswine can ward off Gliscor, but is 3HKOed by unboosted Earthquake, so must be careful switching in.
 
Outrunning + Nature Lucario would require Jolly. I could put up an alternate EV spread for that... but I'll have to do some more tweaking.
 
I guess with Swords Dance as the fourth move, and the unusual yet reasonable EVs, this particular Gliscor definately seems like a viable varient. Perhaps the EVs are great in general, despite not really taking any specific investments into a certain stat to survive important attacks.

I feel Roost is the key element to this set, well... in a defensive mind set. This is mainly because you can change times four super effectives hits into times two super effective attacks with Roost, as you're faster than all but Infernape, and perhaps losin some speed-ties to Salamence - as they're well known for running 280 Speed as well as this Gliscor.
 
This set looks pretty good. It functions similar to BulkyMence, doesn't it?

Do you have calcs for Stone Edge against Gyarados, factoring Intimidate?
 
X-act's defensive EV calculator says that 140hp/96def is more optimal than the spread you have.

Really...? Where is this calculator, I would like to try it out. I assumed having the HP and Defense nearest to eachother as possible yielded the highest defense. If this is not true, I have a lot of EV spreads to fix.

EDIT: That's not even a 0.03% difference in defensive prowess. I'm pretty sure getting two more HP per turn from Leftovers helps you more than this would.


+1 Stone Edge vs. 72 HP DD Gyarados: 76.22-89.68%. 100% OHKO with SR up.
 
Not much I am afraid. 40.10-47.21% to Bold 252/252 Slowbro. Earthquake does 37.31-44.16%.

I'll add Slowbro to the counters.
 
Really...? Where is this calculator, I would like to try it out. I assumed having the HP and Defense nearest to eachother as possible yielded the highest defense. If this is not true, I have a lot of EV spreads to fix.

EDIT: That's not even a 0.03% difference in defensive prowess. I'm pretty sure getting two more HP per turn from Leftovers helps you more than this would.


+1 Stone Edge vs. 72 HP DD Gyarados: 76.22-89.68%. 100% OHKO with SR up.

I was always led to believe that the defence would have to be 9/10 of the hp to reach optimal defence/hp value. Anyway I have been using 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe with great succes. I woulden't worry too much about a leftovers number. I would just max out that 75 Base HP. I would like some numbers on what it can do to Dusknoir. I would remove X-Scissor and Ice Fang, and replace them with AA. Flying + Ground have great coverage together, and it guarentees that 2KO on Celebi. I only used Ice Fang for Garchomp anyway, as staying in on Salamence's Specs Draco Meteor isn't a good idea.
 
Interesting, everything I wanted to say has been said.

BUT

Is anyone else surprised Infernape isn't guaranteed to be OHKOd by EQ?

Edit: X-Acts defenses calculator is linked in X-Act's signature.
 
I've been using Impish with similar EVs (same speed, no attack, more HP and Defense) with Earthquake/Stealth Rock/U-Turn/Roost with good results so far, if I ever decided to go with Swords Dance I'd definitely go Jolly, with enough speed to get the jump on +Speed Lucario, Salamence, and the slower Jirachi variants.

On the Swords Dancing set, of the three "secondary attacks" that you listed, Stone Edge definitely seems to be the most viable. X-Scissor is really only useful if you fear Celebi a lot, and without Garchomp, Ice Fang doesn't really do much that Stone Edge doesn't.
 
Hmmmm, maybe Lucario's defenses aren't as good as people make them out to be... it takes more damage than the "frail" Infernape.

And I wouldn't lower the Attack on this set at all. Having any less than 240 attack means that you don't 2HKO 252/0 Tyranitar, and also Lucario might survive, Infernape has a 50% chance of surviving, and your chances of 2HKOing Celebi are slim.

And I looked at the calculator. It's interesting, but some guys are really messed up. No matter what I asked for for Masquerien it always used max HP and no defenses.

EDIT: Since there seems to be demand for a Jolly version, running 116 HP / 56 Atk / 120 Def / 218 Spe works well. Hits 320 HP, 240 Attack, 316 Defense, and 308 Speed.

X-Act's calculator said 128 HP and 108 Def is better, but it's wrong. 320 X 316 is more than 323 X 313. There is also Leftovers recovery to consider.
 
I calculated the difference between 252 HP / 42 Def / 216 Speed Jolly and 180 HP / 114 Def / 216 Speed Jolly, and according to Metalkid, the difference is between one third and one half of one percent. So this "maximizing defenses" is not all that it's cracked up to be, especially when you consider that more HP means you can at least take a weaker special hit if you have to.

An inability to 2HKO Tyranitar isn't really an issue, since I always find myself U-Turning out the first time I face it anyways, just to make sure it's not carrying Ice Beam.

Lucario does not survive an EQ from 226 attack, according to my calculations.
 
According to the link you just gave me:

Heracross' CB Close Combat vs. Jolly 180 HP / 114 Def: 118 - 139 (35.12% - 41.37%)

Heracross' CB Close Combat vs. Jolly 252 HP / 42 Def: 125 - 147 (35.31% - 41.53%)

So as you can see, it's really a non-issue, especially when that extra HP may help it take a special hit now and then that it needs to take.

Also, according to that calculator, Gliscor requires a grand total of 16 EVs in attack to guarantee an OHKO on 6 HP / 0 Def Lucario. Infernape has the same base Defense as Lucario, but 12 extra points of HP, hence why it takes more to kill it.
 
Actually Infernape has base 71 defense... so that's 2 more defense points, but that's just a minor nitpick.

Anyways, I'm going to do some Special Attack calculations, and if there is anything significant that it could survive easier with more HP less Defense, I will change it, but for now, I'm leaving the EV spread "as is"
 
Hmmmm, maybe Lucario's defenses aren't as good as people make them out to be... it takes more damage than the "frail" Infernape.

Lucario doesn't have better defenses, just better typing. Also, there are plenty of good grounds that can cover for Garchomp: Gliscor, Mamoswine, Hippowdon, even Metagross can offer a reliable earthquake. Gliscor and Mamoswine are probably the best of them though.
 
Mamoswine was a beast before the new ladder, still is. Also, don't forget Swampert, with an Adamant nature that thing packs quite a punch and can still take hits.
 
You used this against me, and I agree that it is quite an effective set.

Stone Edge should definitely be the primary option, because Rock/Ground gets better coverage than Ice/Ground on everything besides Celebi and Breloom, with only the latter being important (as it can Seed Bomb while you Roost, being slower). Ice Fang is significantly weaker when neutral than Stone Edge, in our battle I switched Gengar into the +2 Ice Fang and it lived (and it had taken prior damage).
 
I've been using this spread for a while now, but I've really only noticed its popularity with the addition of the Suspect ladder. I've found this particular spread, although I used a more support oriented set without Swords Dance, to be effective without sacrificing much Defensive ability.
 
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