ASB Mentoring Program and Self-Reffing

Frosty

Frosty

=_=
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OK, soo...

I am taking over those two programs. #dictator

The Mentoring Program will be broad and cover all aspects of ASB. Inside this program there will be a specific reffing course with some autonomy, but linked to the Mentoring Program as a whole in a way yet to be defined. If you complete the reffing course or is accepted as a tutor for it, you will get permission to do self-reffing as per the council decision.

So the advance of Self-Reffing relies on the advance of the mentoring program, so both subjects are kinda related.

The idea here is that the mentoring program supplies the players with "courses" or "tutoring" about:
a) Starting ASB (from profile creation to batting 101)
b) Reffing
c) High-Level Battling
d) Raids 101
e) RPs and TLR 101
f) Gyms 101
(give or take)

The Program as a whole will be managed by me and each course will have its own manager that will help me out. We won't necessarily begin with all courses open from the get-go. The first two will be open from the very begining and the other 4 (give or take) will open as we get demand and resources to cover them.

The idea is that we have a system that can serve all our userbase and not only the newcomers.

Tutors for each course will be handpicked by me (+ helpers) amongst volunteers. Obviously expect high standards on each area.

Tutors and Managers will be paid in UC. I will figure out the numbers later, but I guarantee that it will be worth your while, provided that you do a good job at it. That last sentence is key btw.

To kick start this thread and considering that it is real late here and I can't figure anything else, I would like to ask you all the following questions. Please answer them as honestly as possible and...brutally (yet in a polite manner please <_<) as possible. I will ask other questions later on as we advance on the discussion.

1) Why did you enter ASB? If by some chance you decided not to enter and is reading this (or decided to leave), answer me why you didn't enter or why you left, k? Thanks.
2) At the begining of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you to get over? as in, which stuff had you thinking "hey, can someone help me out with this?"

(and yes, even if you are very old and even if said difficulty was already covered, I'd like to read everybody's responses on this).

The questions are directed at everyone. Also, This thread will be heavy moderated to prevent derailing, k?

(also before you ask, my goal is to launch the program in one month from now. My personal goal, so take it with a pinch of salt <_<)


- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Feedback thus far:

1)
- Flavor. Watching High-Level Play.
- Pokemon knowing all moves. Roleplays and mechanics.
- Being Anime Style
- Intriguing
- Little details. Intricate interactions provided by the sub/order system
- Smog Article. Viability of the lesser used mons
- Profiles on Sigs. Who would have thought.
- Already into ASB
- New
- Using favourites in battles
- Interesting

2)
- Damage Formula, STAB Effects, Random Buffs, Subs and Combos.
- Maybe Obscure Rulings
- Slow pace and little action one can get. Lack of opportunities to get experience.
- Slow Pace. Learning to Ref was hard and tedious
- Cost of fixing early mistakes. Slow Pace. Lack of clear place to get answers. Differences between ingame and ASB.
- Differences between ingame and ASB
- Cost of fixing Early Mistakes. Difficulty in figuring out which moves are good and which ones aren't.
- Raids. Slow Pace.
- Stuff that were supposed to be set in stone but weren't
- Knowing how to make good teams and good profiles. Berries are useless (AGREED)
- Seriousness of dq times
- Differences between ingame and asb. Damage formula and the offensive ranks.
 
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1) I lurked for a while and the flavor aspect of ASB really appealed to me. Watching gym battles unfold, seeing how people can turn around matches, and looking at high level play was something that was very entertaining for me. I actually lurked wayyy back in 2012 but decided not to join yet as i had alot of things on my plate at that time.

2) The biggest apspect for me was reffing, or more specifically, figuring out the damage formula. Remember the STAB effects and wierd combination and wierd buffs were also really hard to grasp. Figuring out subs and combinations were also something i had alot of trouble with.
 
All hail Frosty.

1) Why did you enter ASB? I don't even know how I got to this forums, but when I did I thought it was pretty cool: Pokémon with a ton of moves duking it out. It was around the time Matezoide's gym match vs Red ended, I think. However, I didn't join at that time: iirc I could't find the information to do so.
Some time later (around the date, you guessed it, I joined) I found this forum again, and found all the information about the game in the Beginner's Guide and the Handbook. After reading all of it (yeah, I read the whole handbook before even starting) I fell in love with the idea: having a game where you could have Pokémon knowing all the moves it could ever learn was something I had always wanted, and this forum combined that with some great mechanics and roleplays and the like. Therefore, I joined.

2) At the begining of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over? To tell the truth? Nothing. I found everything I needed to know in the handbook. Well, there were some obscure rulings, but most of them were solved by IRC when I finally got into that (I had never used IRC and the mibbit link was (or is?) kind of hidden, so it took a little while).
 
1) Why did you enter ASB?
I was looking for ways to improve my pokemon battling and a community where I can be involved with. Then I ended up in Socialize forum and liked the name Anime Style Battling and thought to myself Why not give it a try. Btw, I never looked at battles before joining. The idea of Anime Style was interesting enough for me to read through the beginner's guide and create my profile. Although IRC really helped and I think it was DF, and one other person who I do not remember now sowwy, who suggested Protowatt and Embirch for me.

2) At the begining of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over?
I still feel I am a beginner as I don't understand certain aspects of ASB yet. Or rather don't have enough experience.
But when I started, the hardest part was the lesser action I would get. I feel that most people learn from practical experience more than Theory. So the more battles you are in, the more you would learn and since when you start you don't have many options other than 3 Battles and Hall. It was difficult for me to understand the mechanics of ASB. But now I don't have that complain any more as there are enough things to have you preoccupied once you have a few FEs and have started reffing. One suggestion that I got for not having enough action was looking through other people's battles. It was a good suggestion and it helps a lot now. But when I started, my lack of experience would make me feel bored of the battles I am watching.

Two things that would have changed the hard part for me while starting.
1) More battles for Beginners or Beginner Battles get a best of three in the same battle. This second part seems like a cool thing to try out.
2) Some highlight battles that beginner's could relate to. Like 1v1 LCs but not the counter farming ones.
 
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1) Why did you enter ASB?
It was just the start and it was something new. I did not have much on my plate at the time so I lurked for a fair bit and got intrigued at it. So I decided to join it as something to do. And the rest is history I guess >_>

2) At the beginning of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over?
The speed of the game at first. How my first battles were stuck with slow referees and everyone else was going at a fast pace... Apart from that it was refereeing since it started to really help me get a grasp on the game. I was self taught and eventually got the hang of it but it was quite hard and tedious.
 
1) I honestly can't tell you what first made me aware of ASB. I read the two smog articles on it and researched it a bit (I can't really tell you much about how other ASBs are run, the lack of transparency/concrete rules is probably why I didn't join them) and finally decided to make a new user name on Smogon to begin ASB (I do have another user name on Smogon but I never use it/visit the rest of the site anymore). Anyway the aspects of ASB that appeal to me are the little details. The Data Audit was fascinating to me, I enjoyed making pokemon profiles (I had many made before I even joined), and I love the intricate interactions provided by the order/sub order system.

2) The hardest part of ASB for me (I won't say was because I am still new and these issues still plague me) is A) the costs in fixing mistakes I made in my initial pokemon selections (namely natures/unpopular selections), B) the length in delay between players posting/referees reffing (my first two matches took nearly 2 months), and most importantly C) lack of a clear place to go for rules questions/not feeling 100% confident when I get answers anyway. I guess a similar tangent would be the confusion caused by strict following of the ingame mechanics in some instances (Fly's evasion) vs ASB unique mechanics (Trace/Shadow Tag/Evasion/ect...).
 
1) Why did you enter ASB?
I saw zarator's article in the Smog. The possibility of a Pokemon-based game where even Aggron and Beedrill could thrive was very intriguing to me. So I signed up, with my Rufflet by my side, and the rest is history.

2) At the beginning of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over?
Unlike most users I reffed a match before I participated in one. I remember it being Butterfree vs Litwick. In that battle I thought Protect & co. worked like in-game ie, having a chance to succeed consecutively. Another thing was type effectiveness; I once had a Blizzard doing x4 damage to a Garchomp as opposed to x2.25 which is what I now know is correct. I was mostly self-taught and picked up the basic gist of the game fairly quickly.
 
1) Why did you enter ASB? On accident. I clicked WW's sig by accident, got redirected to his profile, and got curious and joined.
2) At the begining of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over? Well at first I didn't know what moves were good and what moves weren't. Cue me entering ASB with an 11-ish loss streak. Including losing Larvitar vs. fresh Joltik.
My first battles being against experienced players like Objection and Gerard didn't exactly help either.
 
1) Why did you enter ASB?
Was in PS! chat, EspyOwner jumped in and linked Deck's Beedrill vs Destiny Warrior's Cyclohm, and hooked me in, 2 months later. (The 2 months thing is a personal promise, nothing to do with ASB itself). Then realised I was partially fooled, but orcinus and typhon and Simon back then were very nice to me so I stayed.

2) At the begining of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over?
Raids mostly, since Zar was rarely around to ask about it. Also the slowness of the games that absolutely needs to get used to, like IAR said.
 
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1) Why did you enter ASB?
I had experience with a different ASB on TPM, and I was interested.​

2) At the begining of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over?
Mainly adapting from a looser, flavour-orientated ASB to one where things were set in stone - especialy in regards to points which weren't, at the time, set in stone.​
 
1) Why did you enter ASB?
I joined ASB because I was looking for something new to do instead of

2) At the begining of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you get over?
For me, the hardest part to understand was building your pokemon. I thought that building a team entirely around sandstorm would be a great idea, and I made my Riolu Modest and both of my other two (yes, this includes Larvitar) Jolly. I also started with weird movepools on most of my pokemon. Learning to battle wasn't that hard once I figured out how to build an effective team of pokemon, and reffing has never been that hard for me (although I haven't reffed anything triples or greater).
I think that a nice way to help future beginners with making bad teams would be to start new players with an Exp. Share and an Amulet Coin, (maybe a Lucky Egg, too, but I'm not sure we should give so much to beginners), either instead of or in addition to the berries. This way, beginners can train their pokemon more quickly, and get the additional MC needed to fix bad movepools, and the CC needed to fix bad natures, more quickly.
Also, the berries are useless. I've looked at quite a few trainer profiles, and one person used 1 oran berry, one person used 1 Rawst Berry, and one person used a Leppa Berry and both Oran Berries, but most have not used any of the berries (myself included).
 
1) Why did you enter ASB?
I came across ASB while perusing CAP subforums . Although I absolutely abhor the anime, I thought the system looked pretty neat, and very much liked the idea of using some of my favorites in serious-er battles.

2) At the beginning of ASB, what aspect(s) of it were harder for you to get over?
The seriousness of dq times are (still) hard, I think that a lot of newbies have trouble keeping up with the pace a lot of us old ppl set, especially when they arent on irc or super involved.
 
Thought I had earlier, reward for completing the introductory course set is a set of training items

FROSTYEDIT: I am considering doing that from the get-go instead of the berries myself tbh. But yeah that was on the draft the council approved and since I like to give away stuff it should be implemented in a broader manner.
 
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1) Imanalt mentioned it while I was part of the Hackmons scene on Pokemon Showdown (long before Pokemon Showdown have 1000+ users at a time). Looked interesting, decided to give it a try.

2) Understanding the difference between in-cartridge mechanics and ASB mechanics, as well as Stat Ranks not having the value shown (Rank 4 Atk is actually +6 Damage before effectiveness, not +4 damage before effectiveness). Eventually, I started reffing a ton of battles and got the hang of most of the mechanics.
 
1) I played ingame to some degree back at Gen IV and when the shift to Gen V happened, I kinda missed the bus and did poorly on it overall. I ended up lurking more, checking teams and what-not and spending time on other areas, mostly CAP. I found asb, lurked here, said myself I wouldn't enter, entered (happens a lot), stayed some months, disagreed with some decisions and how policy was being led, left, resumed lurking when gyms started, then returned. I wanted to try something new for the most part. Although I probably would never find the forums if I didn't go to cap at the time tbh.

2) When I began this my biggest problems were with the differences of ingame and asb. There wasn't any handbook and data was spread everywhere, so it took me a while and a lot of lurking to realizing how stuff worked here (and I mean a lot of lurking), and even then I started with mons and profiles I stayed months without using competitively. Nowadays the biggest problem is by far the obscure rulings and how we need to memorize rulings from all kinds of sources and how we are heavily reliant on the mood of the ref for stuff like sub legality and combos (and many many other stuff). From a competitive point of view that can be real total drag.

(please keep them coming. the feedback so far is being very helpful)
 
The Reffing mentoring course is advancing somewhat well behind the scenes, just to let you people know.

Based on the feedback so far, we may have to:
1) Change the berries the beginner gets for something more useful like training items;
2) Find a way to give newbies better opportunities to get minimal experience at a good speed when they enter;
3) Support new members to make wise choices for starting pokemon (aka use the viability rankings) and starting moves.
4) Make the differences of ASB and ingame more accessible. At least the major ones
5) Improve how obscure rulings are dealt with.
6) Make it possible for the newbie to get enough currency to correct its own mistakes and advance without having to resort to premature ref-like-a-mad-man behaviour

As well as find a way to cover the basics for newcomers in a more accessible manner. I heard some complaints about the ASB Beginner's Guide being a bit long so maybe revisiting it and keep only the bare essentials may be something to be considered. Although I think that is not up my alley so, I won't mess with it for now.

1 is not related directly to mentoring and not my jurisdiction, so maybe let the council handle it? Or bug iar :D.

2 to 6 will be included on the Beginner's course together with the trivial (what is asb how to battle how to register etc). BTW when I say "course" I mean "some guy will be appointed to babysit accompany the new person during their first week/coupleweeks/month". During that period I am considering...uh...bending some rules on battle slots limitations and self-reffing limitations so points 2 and 6 are dealt with. But I am not sure how yet.

Did I forget anything important to be included on the beginner's course?
 
1) Giving them 1 EXP Share, 1 Lucky Egg, and 1 Amulet Coin is a fair alternative.
2) Increasing Battle Slot limitations will not solve the problem in my opinion. Many newbies don't use the battle slots they already have when starting out. They just stick with one to test the waters. The issue I see here is lack of speedy referees and patient newbies. I have seen newbies get upset that the referee did not ref their battle at 3:30 in the morning referee's time within 2 minutes. I have also seen referees agree to referee a newbie's battle and forget to ref the newbie's battle.
3) This can be done.
4) Yeah, this needs to be done.
5) Can be dealt with by updating the handbook as rulings are made. Something that is supposed to be done currently, but isn't.
6) Let's worry about getting self-reffing up and running before we change it to make lives easier for newbies and potentially harder for everyone else.
 
We can add somewhere a list of moves that tend to be great in catridge and are not so good in ASB, and viceversa. This could help newbies see that Endure is incredibly awesome, D/E are spectacular and that using Nasty Plot shoulnd't be your standard course of action.

Or a list of all the moves with big differences.
 
Any setup move with the exception of Acid Armor, Agility, and Barrier (unless your name is IAR)
Bide, Counter, Metal Burst, Mirror Coat
DE moves (such as Bounce and Dig)
Destiny Bond (much easier to use although it has less payoff)
Disable
Encore
Endeavor
Endure (lasts for 3 actions instead of 1 so it can increase survivability by quite a bit)
Flail and Reversal (See Endure being useful)
Entrainment, Gastro Acid, Skill Swap, Simple Beam, Worry Seed
Hail and Sandstorm (See Endure being useful)
Imprison
Trapping moves (such as Infestation and Whirlpool)
Magnet Rise
Me First
Outrage, Petal Dance, Thrash (The damage boost isn't significant but the confusion definitely is)
Perish Song
Psycho Shift
Charge-up moves (such as Skull Bash and Sky Attack)
Torment
Anything that is situationally useful, since those situations come up and pokemon in ASB have no maximum movepool size (except for knowing every move the line can learn) so knowing the move isn't hurting at all.
I almost certainly missed a few things, but yeah.
 
1) All for it. Also... Could everyone change out their Berries (assuming you still have them) for the Training Items? That would be very nice (what I'm still basically a newbie right? >.>).
2) Really this one comes down to everyone (ref and player alike) giving priority to new players. We could either try to make that a general guideline or have a few designated "newbie helpers/Mentors" that are willing to spend time with them. I volunteer if this idea gets used. I'm not exactly a veteran or anything but I think I do ok on the rules and I have plenty of time to give them. Oh and change the "recommended DQ time" guideline thing in the battle tower from 2-3 days to like 1-2. If there is one thing I've learned its that if you give people a 3 day DQ they will take all 3 days and then some. That nearly killed my first two games having to wait a week or longer between orders, ugh.
3) This could be done via written guides to the various pokes (like what normal competitive pokemon has) or through mentors giving advice.
4&5) Yes please.
6) Giving the training items right away goes a long way to helping them correct messed up move selections. Natures/starting pokes in general are tougher.
 
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After reffing my first battle yesterday, I eagerly anticipate the mentoring program for reffing to start. Until then, I'll answer the above two questions to get things moving:
1)Why did you enter ASB?
I thought that the roleplaying aspect looked like fun, as did the way so many people gave personalities to their pokemon. I had seen the TVTropes page for it, and the intricate storytelling that had been weaved with characters such as Itsumo just seemed fun. The difference between this and most other pokemon roleplaying sites was that the math made the battles fair. That way, nobody could be accused of powerplaying, and I wouldn't be intimidated by the fights, but could instead actually enjoy them. Also, I've really enjoyed creating personalities for my Pokemon- I recently got Photoshop, and I've been drawing some pictures both of them and of their battles here for DeviantArt. Basically, it just seemed like a place with a fun community for roleplaying where you could connect with your pokemon and join in on a larger story.
2) At the beginning of ASB, what aspect(s) were harder for you to get over?
At the same time as the math attracted me by making the battles fair, it also intimidated me with its complexity. Also, my very first battle had gone horribly, and I considered stopping to study a bit before continuing. Then the people here kept on being nice, and I decided that regardless of how many battles I lost, I was just a beginner and to just have fun with it. At first I wasn't sure about what I thought of the slow pace, but after being in some Flash battles and reffing a Flash, I've decided that I like the slow pace. The slow pace gives me the time to think about what I'm doing, and to avoid making the sort of stupid mistakes I made in at least one Flash battle when I was in a rush.
 
The matter of starting items will be discussed on a new thread as soon as someone makes it (hint: council people can and should make them)

The other supportive material/decisions...well I will give it more thought.

So...let's advance here. Here is a draft of the reffing program. Emphasis on "draft". Check Inside and see what can be improved/what I have missed/the gibberish I wrote, while I start figuring out some of the other programs.

The Reffing Program will be a revival of Flora's Referee Tutoring Program, with a few twists though.

There will be two programs in the Reffing Course: Reffing 101 and Reffing 202. The first one teaches you the basics of reffing and the second one goes further into more complex subjects and allows you to get whitelisted for Self-Reffing if your performance is good enough.

For both programs the player fills in the following form:

Course
Timezone:
Reffing Experience (if any):
Why do you want to be tutored:
Any extra comments about yourself:
Click to expand...

And gets into the queue. Normal queue, like with the facilities and such. One of the tutors will get you and get started with the respective course as seen below.

(this is a copy. Credit goes to Flora)

A Tutor Ref will take on an Apprentice Ref (or slightly more if you can handle it) and watch over as he or she refs a battle at the Battle Tower. The Apprentice Ref will pick a battle within his limitations, inform his tutor by PM and start reffing. They will PM the Tutor Ref his or her update of the match before each round begins. The Tutor Ref will look over for errors or mistakes (and flavor if the apprentice asks for that) and send a PM right back at the Apprentice Ref, who will correct them if necessary and then post the update. This will repeat until the match is over.

The round will be looked at and audited for calculations, effects, etc. and PMed back to the Apprentice Ref. The Tutor Ref will also be looking at things like consistency in effects over rounds, any creative elements that could be added/subtracted, and generally anything else that might be important.

If the Apprentice Ref fails to complete the match for whatever reason, it is the duty of the Tutor Ref to finish it up.

Each Tutoring cycle is composed of two battles. After the second battle, the tutor will evaluate the apprentice to see he if got a grip at how reffing works in general (no need for it to be a OMFG GREAT understanding. Just a basic understanding of the bare essentials (read: damage formula) should suffice). If yes, then the apprentice is classified as a Registered Ref. If the first battle went out really well, the tutor may just approve of the apprentice without the need of the second battle (although if the apprentice wants to, he will get the second battle of tutoring).

Tutor gets UC equal to 3 + UC got by the Apprentice. Apprentice is payed normally. DQ=0 counters.

Matches picked by the apprentice will have their DQ extended by 24h. Apprentice has to PM the tutor the reffing at most at 2/3 the DQ and the remaining 1/3 will be for the tutor to either check the reffing and do it himself. Apprentices that fail to follow DQ won't be approved. Tutors that fail to follow DQ may have their positions revoked.

If the Tutor is DQ'd, the Manager of the program will assign a new asap.
Apprentice faces Tutor on a 5vs5 FE doubles match (well...at least the tutor will use FE mons, preferably strong ones. If the apprentice doesn't have 5 FE mons, he will need to use the best one at his disposal) on ASB Arena with 3 subs, items=yes and standard rules all around. Apprentice will need to order AND ref the match. Tutor sends out pokemon to apprentice, who will then set up the match with his own team as well as order first (send out last). Apprentice and Tutor post orders, apprentice refs and posts on the thread, Tutor lists the errors and suggestions on a hide tag and continue the battle, with the apprentice reffing every round. The tutor would evaluate the apprentice on format, how the information is presented, damage calculations, the errors commited and...well....everything ref-related. If after the battle the tutor finds the reffing acceptable, the apprentice gives whitelisted for self-reffing and may become a tutor too. Apprentice gets counters for reffing and for battling, excluding KOCs and Tutor gets counters (except for KOCs) from the battle and a baseline of 5UC for the checking and all.

The Tutor will be advised to use all the tricks at his disposals, up to and including complex substitutions, strange combos, weird attack interactions and even flavor-based maneuvers. Their goal isn't to win, but to see the extent of the apprentice's capacites at reffing.

Apprentices that don't follow DQ either in battling or in reffing (LoA rules apply) will be reproved, simple as that. They will get a sole warning total. Also, apprentices that treat the match as an opportunity to burn the bellsprout (read: that send out horrible pokemon so the battle is faster or just play suicidal spamming explosion and what-not) and that forfeit at the middle of it will also be reproved. The apprentice will need to show that he can complete that kind of match to the end on normal circunstances.

Whitelisted refs that self-ref really poorly or play really suicidal too much may have their licenses revoked.

Matches from this course will not count towards the 3-slots limitation

If the Tutor is DQ'd, the Apprentice asks for a replacement on the main thread.

There is a one-month cooldown after you finish a course, regardless the result. You are supposed to practice during that cooldown. Also, the management may extend that cooldown further and condition it as they see fit or even, in extreme cases, denying tutoring until further notice, so the same (insecure or...uh...uncapable guy) doesn't keep flooding the queue.


Refs will be classifies in three tiers:
a) Apprentice Refs: Refs that haven't passed the Reffing 101 course or aren't minimally experient on reffing. They can only ref battle tower matches (no gym, no rp, no hlm etc) equal to or shorter than 3vs3 singles and 4vs4 doubles (no triples, no brawls).
b) Registered Refs: Refs that have passed the Reffing 101 course and have some experience on reffing. They can apply to ref any battle (of course, the owner of the RP will need to allow it as well).
c) White-listed Refs (name pending): Refs that have passed Reffing 202 course and/or have a good deal of experience in the field, having proved able to ref adequately and on time battles. They can apply to ref any battle, as well as ref their own battles or become tutors on the reffing program. Depending on the demand, White-listed Refs may be called to act as tutors (even if ad hoc) if the demand is big enough (constant and baseless refusal may lead to their licenses being revoked <_<).
 
Frosty said:
So...let's advance here. Here is a draft of the reffing program. Emphasis on "draft". Check Inside and see what can be improved/what I have missed/the gibberish I wrote, while I start figuring out some of the other programs.
Click to expand...

If we don't find anything wrong with the proposal can we like it? ^_^
Guess so!
 
Uh....I suppose that is an option. As long as you don't just read it and do nothing. I appreciate any kind of feedback.

I will post the other programs when I am done with them.
 
This looks awesome. I like how white-listed refs are more or less required to help tutor. Should move forward with; A+
 
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