Discussion Awful, Terrible, No-Good Pokemon (and other stuff) Feedback Thread


heralds disaster.
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In this thread, discuss amongst yourselves who the very worst Pokemon available in the game is. This is mainly a metric-taking thread, where the team can see what people value in a Pokemon and what they do not, and see which Pokemon are just unjustifiable currently.

Just to assess what we're working with here, we're looking for help deciding upon the 20-30 worst fully-evolved Pokemon available.

With your submission, please give a brief blurb on why you think your submission is one of the worst available Pokemon.

When submitting Pokemon, keep in mind the following:
  • Certain Pokemon are unsalvageable, such as:wobbuffet:Wobbuffet. This Pokemon is more of a candidate for inclusion in "5.10 Unique Pokemon", if anything. Far, far, far in the future. It's probably for the best that there's never a good version of what Wobbuffet does in BBP.
  • We're not really looking for Pokemon with unique (albiet niche) utility, such as :shedinja:Shedinja and :cramorant:Cramorant. These Pokemon have traits that could realistically make them the best option for a battle or other piece of content. Submissions should have trouble offering anything to teams.
  • We're also not really looking for Pokemon that are competent but outclassed, such as :krookodile:Krookodile or :infernape:Infernape. These Pokemon can be played just fine if they're your favorite, and sometimes fill niches that their competitors cannot. Submissions should struggle to justify themselves over their competitors.
Pokemon in the above categories are still worth mentioning here, but this discussion will focus mainly on the worst of the worst.

Feel free to discuss with each other whether a given Pokemon mentioned by other posters truly qualifies. This is a rather subjective thing to assess, so getting multiple perspectives (or multiple people posting "so true") will be very helpful.
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I'll start by throwing in a personal favourite of mine that I've tried using here a few times, but has always felt underwhelming.


Sylveon, on paper, seems decent, with Pixilate making it a strong mon if you don't want to use or don't have Mega Gardevoir. However, compared to other special fairies, it just feels completely outclassed. Only having 8 SpA means that Pixilate Hyper Voice doesn't even outdamage Moonblast from the 9 SpA special fairies like base Gardevoir or Primarina. The other special fairies that are common (with the exception of Primarina) are also all from substantially earlier than gen 6, resulting in them having better movepools, including much wider coverage. Therefore, there is not really any reason to use Sylveon over something like base Gardevoir if you're looking for offense or utility. Defensively, 95/7/9 after nature is quite good, but Magic Guard combined with a much wider movepool means that even though Clefable's defenses are slightly worse at 95/7/7, Clefable is still a much stronger option. Overall, Sylveon's only real niche over other fairies is Pixilate Hyper Voice, and that is not a very strong niche when it doesn't even get more damage than pokemon like Gardevoir and Primarina.


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:shiinotic: i got the shrigma cause hes a funny little guy. this is one of the most disappointing mons i have ever used. at lower levels the shroom is pretty alright and you can hope to win in some advantageous type matchups. at higher levels it's completely unusable i think. you're incredibly reliant on spore to do anything at all (have fun using this at level 4, where everyone has substitute and is faster). you have no matchup control whatsoever. you have no bulk and no power. every attacker can hit you super effectively, every wall will shrug off your hits. the only thing you can do is attack for meager damage in good matchups and meme with effect spore, which by the way does nothing vs steels.

:alcremie: i wanna get this to level 4 for the gmax, but helping hand and decorate are locked behind level 4 meaning leveling it up to that point via raids (my original plan) will be an absolute slog. cm acid armor recover coverage is at least decent but just feels very linear, not fun at all, and done better by other fairies who at least learn moonblast.

:pyukumuku: lol

:plusle: :minun: :pachirisu: :emolga: :dedenne: a bunch of the pikaclones are definitely down there. makes me wonder if we could expand light ball or something

:cherrim: one of my favorite mons. also primarily a supporter, +4 atk spdef on you and the ally is good but hard to justify when you need cherrim out + sun up, plus they can then just kill cherrim with like 3 fire moves probably. helping hand at level 4 is suffering. so at best you're memeing with weather wars in doubles and staying away from singles at all costs. this only becomes actually justifiable if you get groudon somehow.

:sharpedo-mega: worst mega? strong jaw crunch is good but other dark-types with an item can get the same damage. you have 85/5/5 defenses and die instantly. mega bee also dies to everything but i think adapt uturn spam (with pursuit!) works better here than sharpedo's weird late-game cleaner role.


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I love Spinda, I really do, but it is not a good mon by any means.
Statline is 85/5/5/5/5/60. Yeah. That's, uh. Yeah. It's probably the one thing that holds it back the most.
Pure Normal means you compete against a LOT of potential mons, and almost all of them are better than you.
Your Ability suite is kind of amazing, that is true, but it is also self-conflicting: you cannot reliably proc Own Tempo + Tangled Feet with Berserk Gene if you also have Contrary on, and if you don't have Contrary on you lose a lot of what makes the Pokémon unique in the first place.
The movepool is where this Pokémon shines, and even then it lacks a few tricks to really perform well (Imprison, Power Split, or an offensive pivoting move come to mind).


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I'd like to talk about Tinkaton. This Pokemon is by far my favourite introduced in Scarlet and Violet, yet I've held off on purchasing one since Gen 9 dropped. This is because I just don't see this mon being fun to use in BBP.

I'll start by talking about Tinkaton's most unique trait, Gigaton Hammer. With 16 BAP STAB and the only drawback being it can't be used two steps in a row, it seems very solid on paper, but there are some things holding it back. First, Gigaton Hammer is a level 4 move, which means Tinkaton is left without it for its whole leveling process. Second, the move can be blanked by an opponent ordering first with "IF Gigaton Hammer THEN Protect," due to the move's restriction. Third, the move is very weak to sealed, as Tinkaton's next best option is a huge dropoff in power.

Outside of Gigaton Hammer, Tinkaton just isn't great. Fairy/Steel is a good typing, and its abilities are solid, but its statline is a letdown, and its movepool isn't great. It lacks typical STAB options others of its type get, such as Iron Head, Dazzling Gleam, and Moonblast, and while it has some okay coverage, the low BAP of its moves combined with low stats and no boosts from abilities means it often gets out-raced. Looking at its utility moves, it has some nice options, but no combination of moves so exclusive that you'd pick Tinkaton over something else. 90/6/8 bulk is fine, but not for a mon whose offensive contributions aren't good.

Even in situations where Tinkaton can spam Gigaton to its heart's content, it still has to get there, and while a dedicated effort through the leveling process will eventually get it there, it just doesn't sound like a fun experience to use, and for not a great enough payoff.
ITT: post the worst Pokemon you've used.

:glastrier:: What do you get when you build a Pokemon with a BRT of 41 and a set of powerful attacking Moves, but forget to give it Status Conditions, matchup control, D/E Moves, Abilities, a passable defensive typing, hazards, hazard removal, hazard immunity, screens, Heal Bell, reliable recovery, "tech" moves buffed in the transition to Gen IX, or anything else that makes one look at a Pokemon and think, "I want that"? Glastrier.

It's hard to believe that a Pokemon that reaches the magic damage number of twenty-six with up to six Types could be so bad, but Glastrier is always one to surprise and never one to succeed in its missions. Taunt and Torment are nice yet insufficient in remedying the deep flaws inherent to playing with a completely one-dimensional Pokemon. Glastrier is ultimately a statball that was bad in its own archetype's heyday, and the shift to a varied, support-friendly metagame has only worsened its outlook.


:pidgeot-mega:: Using Mega Pidgeot entails spending your Mega Evolution/Advanced Technique on a Pokemon that's outperformed by Life Orb Flying-types. Moreover, No Guard helps Pidgeot land Hurricanes but leaves it vulnerable to Blizzards, Thunders, Zap Cannon, Sleep Moves, Stone Edges, and more. If one wants a special-attacking Flying-type with Reflect, one should pick a Psychic / Flying-type and use the Advanced Technique saved on a real "X-factor" such as Gardevoir, Gengar, Kangaskhan, or Terastallization.

:toedscruel:: I'm hesitant to bring Toedscruel into this; I haven't had time to test it yet, and it has an objectively phenomenal support movepool, a fun offensive typing for our metagame, and a good stat spread for a speedy supporter. Nonetheless, it deserves discussion because its viability is undermined by its Ability. Toedscruel's best array of opponent-targeting Status Moves consists of Stun Spore, Toxic, Spore, Reflect Type, Leech Seed, Confuse Ray, and Taunt. This means that Mycelium Might will primarily allow Toedscruel to bypass Sap Sipper, Status-immunity Abilities, Overcoat, Unaware, Good as Gold, and Wonder Skin; unfortunately, as such Abilities' bearers have not been established as persistent threats in the current metagame, Mycelium Might offers Toedscruel little benefit while burdening it with a penalty to its attack priority that wastes a significant portion of its power budget.

Now, one might wonder how bad this penalty really is. After all, it allows Toedscruel to ignore faster opponents' D/E Moves when employing its main avenue of attack and maximize the benefit its allies receive from opportunities created by moves such as Spore and Screens; it can't be all bad, right? Well, literally any Pokemon that learns Taunt, Substitute, Safeguard, or Disable can foil Toedscruel's plans with perfect reliability, as Toedscruel just can't act fast enough to avoid such disruptions. Moreover, this drop in priority directly hinders Toedscruel's ability to defend itself with its own status moves: despite its base 100 Speed, Toedscruel cannot use a Screen, Substitute, or Reflect Type before taking a hit, which is especially painful for a Pokemon with a 4x-weakness to a common attacking type; it cannot block dangerous status moves with Taunt; and it cannot save itself by Sporing a slower Pokemon while its own HP are low. A similar problem extends to other last-ditch tactics, as Toedscruel is also denied the privilege of setting a final layer of hazards on the action it Faints that would otherwise be frequently available due to its Speed tier.

There is also the issue of Toedscruel's direct damage output. Toedscruel is basically forced to run a Bold Nature, as its 90/5 unaltered physical bulk crumples against the hits it must survive to support its team. This means that it must decide between using Soft Sand or Life Orb to threaten the average opponent with its better offensive STAB type, or using a defensive Item to preserve its HP throughout a match as it performs its various hazard, screen, and status duties. The result is that Toedscruel is either impotent when faced by one of the aforementioned disruption tools or fragile when faced by the offensive Pokemon it must expect to fight.

Overall, Toedscruel suffers from an unfortunate and contradictory set of attributes. Given the prevalence of Grass-types in the dedicated support or offensive support roles, there's simply little reason to use Toedscruel over its competitors.
If you want something done, you have to do it yourself.

:beautifly: is somehow one of the worst early-game bug-type Pokemon to exist, which is like saying that of all of the month-old meat I'd like to eat, I choosing the chicken, raw. I know outclassed is not the sole determining factor, but I assure you, Beautifly is both outclassed and bad in its own right. In a world where it had no competition, it wouldn't be desired.

Beautifly has 85/5/4/7/4/65 stats. Those of you who have used the damage formula in this game will realize that this is not a good statline. This is almost worst than Spinda, because with 7 SpA, you don't qualify anything like 2022 Harvest King as a Trick o' Treater. Its abilities are also poor- Swarm is okay in that you're going to likely be relying on Bug Buzz anyways, and it won't take long to hit that threshold, but it's also Swarm. Rivalry is a detriment- of the six other Rivalry users, three have STAB SE moves and the others are Haxorus and the Nidos.

"Oh, well, surely it's got something in it no one's seeing. I'm Gemini Taurus and I'm going to innovate the meta. I have definitely not 'been with the plants' too much." you think, more than likely not being Gemini Taurus (although hello if you are!). You go out, you buy a Level 1 Beautifly. What do you have to work with?

Bug Buzz is a decent STAB, Stun Spore and Toxic are good if not perfectly reliable tools, you have Defog so that you can get rid of Stealth Rocks and losing 13% of your HP, and you have moderate coverage- Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Psychic. What you are lacking is a good STAB- Air Cutter is your best STAB, unless you want to physical with Aerial Ace or use Gust for fun. Sunny Day also has potential.
Honestly, not that bad. Your opponent sends out Golem, which you can surely send packing with a 4x eff Energy Ball!

Golem does 96 itemless with three Rock Slides. Over 100 consistently with Muscle Band Stone Edge.
Life Orb Energy Ball (because you're dying anyways) does 26. At 90 HP, that's a 4HKO.
We'll give it a better matchup- Quagsire. Itemless Quagsire deals 20 a Rock Slide. Life Orb deals 26. Your Life Orb Energy Ball does 26 still- so you trade back and forth. After LO recoil, you go 56, 27, 0. Quagsire goes 66, 37, 8. Taking off your Life Orb stops you from being 3HKO'd, but it also prevents you from 4HKOing.

Surely it gets better, right? At level 2, it gets Whirlwind! It also gets Thief, which is an implicit threat to protect yourself from Rock moves with a Rock-Resist berries because you cannot afford to be hit by them. You get Solarbeam, a great move, you get both Roost and Morning Sun so that you can get the type of healing effect that benefits you most at the time, and Venoshock if you use Toxic I guess?

At 3, you get your STAB... Acrobatics? Yep, on the special size, Air Cutter and Gust are what you've got. You also get speed control in Electroweb and Tailwind, Laser Focus for your coverage, and pivoting in U-turn.

Level 4's benefits are Substitute and Quiver Dance. That's kind of it. Even Hyper Beam doesn't combo with anything.

Looking at that... it kind of has some moderate tools to work with! If they were in a better Pokemon's hands, they might be passable!

What don't you have? Besides usable stats, you don't have Taunt. Or Disable. Or many tools outside of manipulating which Pokemon is on the field and healing. You have Stun Spore, but its potency is counterbalanced by that 3/4 chance to hit. But you have little influence on your opponent besides that. It can't do tricky things and it can't fight back effectively. You will lose 80% at least of the matches you fight with this Pokemon.

And the thing is, if you were really dedicated to Bug/Flying, if it was your favorite type growing up and you had formed an even stronger attachment after playing a version of this game with a special item that buffed a Bug/Flying type you identified with (can't imagine that happening), you could just buy... better Beautifly. This guy exists: :butterfree:

Butterfree is Beautifly, but better in nearly every conceivable way. Slightly more speed and SpD, but the real two important things are its abilities and its access to actual Flying STAB from L1. Butterfree gets Air Slash at Level 1, and at Level 2 gets a 91% Accurate Hurricane. Compoundeyes raises the accuracy of Hurricane, but also your X Spores and Air Slash, and even your Supersonic if you wanted to go that route. It also gets Safeguard, Rage, Rain Dance, Bide, Teleport, Baton Pass, and Skill Swap if you wanted to for some reason (secret Mega Mawile counter????).

The one thing Beautifly gets listed above that Buterfree doesn't? Laser Focus. Uses that probiscis as a scope or something I guess.

Also, note that Butterfree is bad. Let alone worse Butterfree.
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We shall bow to neither master nor god
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Then I will tentatively offer two Pokémon to the chopping block. I say 'tentatively' because they're still lv2, thus I have not used them to their full potential.

:volbeat: Volbeat

Volbeat is pretty obviously designed around Tail Glow, which is admittedly a very strong setup move (as Mow can attest). However, Tail Glow is also level 4, and you're stuck with the critter for far longer than that.
  • Stats: the first thing we see is that, given how much of a skew TG is, this Pokémon was toned down significantly. Its best stats are its defenses, at a whopping 6 apiece. The offenses are awful (SpA, its supposedly main attacking stat, is at 4 base! You could equip Choice Specs and still have a subpar stat at the end!)and the other two stats are rather middling. It's not winning any statball contest anytime soon...
  • Abilities: a mixed bag. Illuminate doesn't do much for you and enables happy Fire Blast spamming by your opponent. Swarm is one of the worse pinch Abilities because Bug is a terrible offensive typing, but it could still boost your last Bug Buzz I guess. Now Prankster is really good and synergizes okay with Volbeat's support movepool. The slight problem is that it's its HA, and if you were to buy a lv1 Volbeat today you'd have a truly miserable experience with only the other two.
  • Movepool: on paper Volbeat's movepool is rather expansive. Unfortunately, most of it consists in either weak coverage (Air Cutter, Ominous Wind, Water Pulse, etc.) or physical moves that you probably don't want to use ever (looking at you, Double-Edge and Mega Punch). STAB-wise you get solid options with Bug Buzz, Silver Wind or Bug Bite at lower levels, before grabbing U-Turn and Lunge at lv3 for added utility. And utility is where the movepool finally shows merit. At lower levels you get Counter to automatically remove a sub from physical attackers, as well as Mud-Slap. Then you get Defog and Trick at lv1, which is not very useful right then. At lv2, when Prankster comes online, you get recovery in Roost and Moonlight, trapping in Infestation, an actual pressuring physical move in Focus Punch, Solar Beam, and Thief. Lv3 up the ante and gives you Baton Pass, Encore, Light Screen (but not Reflect), Psych Up and Tailwind, all of those make great use of Prankster. At lv4 you FINALLY get Tail Glow alongside Metronome for boosted priority shenanigans.
tl;dr: Volbeat is probably an alright support mon at higher levels but it is painful to get it there and it suffers heavily by itself.

:venomoth: Venomoth

I'd say Venomoth is somewhat viable, but heavily outclassed. Bug/Poison is a bad typing that doesn't allow it to make great use of Tinted Lens and it is far too frail to even out in terms of damage.
  • Stats: Unlike Volbeat Venomoth has decent SpA at 7 base and good Speed at 90, though you can't boost both with a Nature so you're stuck picking between a speedy mon that hits like an actual moth or a decently powerful mon that gets outsped by a lot of the meta. 85/5/6 bulk is not good, and if you go Bold you're essentially forgoing your offensive capabilities. It really is a mon that wishes it had one stat usable as-is.
  • Abilities: actually a jackpot here. Most Pokémon would kill for an Ability suite like this one. Shield Dust removes any RNG shenanigans you may face, and Wonder Skin forces your opponent to endure some themselves (not that you'd want to use status moves against it when it's that frail though). Tinted Lens is the star of the show, obviously, letting you ignore resistances and press your advantage, the problem being once again Venomoth's lacking stats and its absence of huge crazy STAB move like Braviary-H can have. Still, it does have a colorful movepool that can potentially allow it to punch above its weight.
  • Movepool: it's not crazy as far as Gen I movepools can go, but there's still plenty of neat tricks here. Sludge Bomb and Bug Buzz are your main STABs, with Psychic and Solar Beam as notable good moves as well. Unfortunately, Steels are a major defensive issue against Venomoth, who can't hit them SE and is forced against regularly effective Tinted Lens moves, which likely won't hit very hard. Other notbale offensive moves include Acid Spray, Razor Wind, Rage, Pounce, Infestation, Venoshock (it gets TSpikes!) and U-Turn. Status moves have some good gems too. It gets all three status Powders, as well as Rage Powder for Doubles plays. Curse(?) and the coveted Quiver Dance (at lv4 though) are your main boosting moves. Finally, it gets a wide array of tricks in Whirlwind, Disable, Morning Sun & Roost, Baton Pass, Bide, Reflect (but not Light Screen), Teleport, and arguably Skill Swap, though given that your Abilities are your strong suite... There's a lot to be used there but I'm not sure Venomoth itself is really made as a tricksy mon.
tl;dr: A good Pokémon on paper held back by an unfortunate typing and middling stats, that cannot use its biggest strength to maximum efficiency.


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i love complaining i could make a career out of this

:klefki: the other other steel/fairy. prankster twave is very funny but then you click it and you stay in for the rest of the round and it slowly dawns on you that you are using klefki. your stats are 80/6/7/6/6/prank. this doesn't even have good confusion-inducing options. at lower levels, to offset your weak damaging options you have at best questionable moves like recycle and switcheroo. later on you at least get imprison torment and dual screens i guess. i just wish fairy lock wasn't a block clone, there are some demon strats on cart with eject button klefki into free kill with fairy lock.

:jumpluff: shiinotic and whimsicott at least have stab moonblast (though it is at level 3). this gets pretty much powders, sd, matchup control, and screens. good moves if your statline wasn't 90/4/5/4/7/110 and you could hit steels. (edit: this is probably alright with lucky egg if you avoid the myriad miserable type matchups. fine, jumpluff. you get a pass)

:sceptile-mega: on second thought this is definitely worse than mega sharpedo. you lose the damage race to dragons. even waters and stuff like rhyperior can put up a fight with ice moves. shark at the end of the day is at least killing psychics (i mean not garde/gallade but like.... in the abstract sense) and dishing out solid damage with fang + giga impact combos. scept is just clicking 10 spa frenzy plant, sitting there with 85/6/6 bulk, and doing absolutely nothing else of note.

:syclant: i wanna get this mon cause its cool but you die to every fire move and most things get a fire move. your damage is solid and coverage options are great but anything youre hitting with eq will kill you in return so there isn't exactly a point. mon hates tail glow being level 4

:toxapex::shuckle: these go in the same boat. you can have a lot of fun vs status-weak mons at lower levels but then everyone gets sub and there's legitimately nothing you can do. mons like the bliss, the mola, and the aud at least have secondary ideas (lucky egg, berserk gene, wish support, etc). these are designed to just sit there and outlast stuff, which is not an idea that works without some form of offensive pressure. carbink at least has meme beam

:gumshoos: stakeout is cringe in this because they can just protect. this mon specifically is also a terrible stakeout user because why would anyone want to switch out against him. doesn't make any sense

:noivern: this is the kind of mon where you dont think about it too much but then you consider it in the context of bbp and just go "oh eww". fast anti-support might work with weavile but this mon is just incapable of winning matchups, you need to specifically fight bugs and grasses in order to not get outdamaged. decent in doubles with like super fang and sub eaters (torment, confusion) i guess but salamence also exists in this game believe it or not

:lumineon: 85/5/6/5/6/91 and you have no tricks, what was the idea here? exists so that there's a water worse than phione in the game

:delcatty: remember when normalize was busted in this lol. 85/5/5/4/4 and your bag of tricks doesn't go much deeper than norm twave, fake out, and i guess assist if you get this mon to level 4. have fun

:ninjask: you get 2 guys for the price of 1 and one is a silly fringe gimmick guy and the other somehow is actually worse. paper defenses, silly coverage (dig????), not enough tricks. i bet you thought this mon gets taunt but it doesn't. if i wanted an sd passer i would use someone who could actually survive like gliscor.

:ariados: this is for sure worse than venomoth

:mr mime: this mon is notable for avoiding the 80 hp curse by instead having 75 hp. other stats arent too bad and you get a ton of crazy moves but i hate guys who use 3 crazy moves and then die instantly
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:Parasect:: I guess I'll say it, then.

Bug / Grass is one of the worst possible offensive and defensive typings. 85/7/6/5/6/30 is a terrible stat spread in the current meta. These shortcomings could be forgiven if Parasect possessed any factor that made it more of a lethal joke than a pure joke, as do certain "weak" Pokemon such as Beedrill, Unown, and Smeargle, but such an attribute is unfortunately missing from Parasect's kit.

You might think that Effect Spore would give Parasect its necessary competitive edge, as a newly revamped and respectably powerful Ability. However, consider that this Ability incentivizes fighting not only opponents that use contact attacks, but specifically those that have already been afflicted with a kind of Poison before they can hit the ESpore user; the Paralysis and Sleep effects are significantly stronger than a 1DPA Poison condition, meaning that you don't want to waste an ESpore proc on a pittance of damage, and the fact that Pokemon generally don't survive more than four hits without tanking their own damage outputs makes even a single "missed" Paralysis or Sleep infliction quite painful. Why is this important? Well, although Parasect possesses the support movepool to start a fight with a timely status condition, it also has a base 30 Speed stat that prevents it from outspeeding enough of the game to actually use this strategy, and its aforementioned defensive shortcomings mean that it'll usually faint from three hits. Moreover, as a Pokemon with 7/5/30 offenses, weak reliable STAB-boosted attacks, and poor coverage, Parasect relies on passive damage in the form of Toxic, Leech Seed, and Infestation to make progress against tougher opponents; regular Poison's mutual exclusivity with Bad Poison means Parasect is denied one of its stronger pressuring tools as a "reward" for activating its own Ability.

Parasect also loses hard to Substitute and Taunt without resorting to shenanigans like Loaded Dice Bullet Seed, which comprises the longevity of a Pokemon that is designed to stick around and spread status conditions.

Finally, because this will be a fun point, I'll briefly mention that much can be inferred about a Pokemon's viability from its interactions with Pokemon that should be their worst matchups by merit of stats or typing. Examples of this idea include Mega Gardevoir in Gen VI/VII, which didn't really lose to the premier, contemporary, Steel-type beatstick Mega Aggron because Garde had access to fast Skill Swap, Disable, Will-O-Wisp, and Pain Split; or Mega Gengar, which doesn't really lose to Alolan Muk because Gengar has Reflect Type, an immunity to trapping, and more matchup-reversing tools in its movepool than players have substitutions. In contrast, Parasect is 2HKOed by Wise Glasses-boosted Armor Cannon from Modest Armarouge and is 3HKOed by Muscle Band-boosted Fly from any Flying-type Pokemon with at least Rank 8 Attack. The strongest Fire- and Flying-type attackers can even 2HKO Parasect if it Spores them on the first hit. It's hard to want to use a Pokemon that performs so terribly in its bad matchups when it also lacks potency in its neutral or positive matchups.

:quagsire:: Mediocre stats, niche Abilities, and low damage output hurt Quagsire's viability. Access to Yawn, Toxic, and three kinds of Entry Hazards is nice, as is a Water / Ground defensive typing, but can't overcome these flaws. If you've purchased a Quagsire, you've probably just sought to exploit its most notable niche as a partner for Mawile in the Battle Tree.

:clodsire:: It's good at setting hazards and surviving multiple rounds, but little else. Clodsire's offensive presence is built upon Toxic, Acid Spray, and Earthquake, which means that it struggles to defeat the ubiquitous Substitute. Also, Clodsire lacks any form of matchup control, which places it in a rare category of Pokemon that is actively anti-fun to use in Singles.

Moreover, Poison Point greatly interferes with Clodsire's gameplan. Although the slowest, bulkiest, least tricky Poison Point user that also happens to be least proficient at all-out attacking roles should logically see the greatest benefit from the new "free" power penalty, Clodsire's abysmal Speed stifles the fulfillment of this idea. It's easy for an opposing Pokemon to touch Clodsire before it can respond, accept a trivially harmful 1DPA Poison status that simultaneously limits the defensive benefits offered by Poison Point and topples a pillar of Clodsire's offense, and then return to their general strategy. Offensive Pokemon are free to throw out Earthquakes, Icicle Crashes, Icicle Spears, or any special Psychic-, Ice-, or Ground-type attack, while defensive Pokemon are given the opportunity to inoculate themselves against Toxic for the remainder of the battle.


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I'll take a different approach by discussing an ability that I feel like could use some love: Aftermath.

First, let's look at the ability itself. It offers +10 BAP to self-sacrificing moves. Barring a Revival Blessing play, you get the chance to use this once. However, it isn't overwhelmingly challenging to prevent a self-sacrificing move from being attempted, or from being effective if it's executed. Personally, I find this ability rather underwhelming. Moreover, it doesn't even become an ability until Level 3.

Next, let's look at its users. :drifblim: Drifblim, :electrode: Electrode, :electrode-hisui: Electrode-Hisui, :garbodor: Garbodor, and :skuntank: Skuntank. There aren't any world beaters here. Drifblim probably holds the title for the strongest, and that says something.

:drifblim: Drifblim, in fact, proves to be quite effective, and probably doesn't require buffs on its own. However, I don't believe it's overwhelming enough to stop an Aftermath change. It can quickly become an offensive presence with Unburden and Flare Boost, or take a slower approach with its 115 HP and suite of ghost tricks. It does have some notable weaknesses, such as the low BAP of its moves and frail defenses, making its bulk more akin to average without any item support.

:electrode::electrode-hisui: They're similar enough so I'll touch on them at the same time. Electrode-H trades eight generations of moves for being part Grass-type. They have some wicked Electro Balls and can get support moves out before disruption, but otherwise they lack bulk and have predictable offensive tools.

:garbodor: It has come cool stuff like Pain Split, the new Weak Armor, lots of hazards, and some compelling coverage options, but its stats are mediocre, and it doesn't really carve out any particular niche.

:skuntank: Skuntank directly competes with Drapion as a Poison/Dark Keen Eye user (same generation even!), and I think Drapion clears quite comfortably. That's not even considering Overqwil and Muk-A if you prefer a defensive Poison/Dark type.
:ledian:: I swear that this thread could be populated exclusively with Bug-types.

Bug / Flying is a tragically bad defensive typing, and although Flying is a good offensive type, Ledian's only usable Flying STAB option is the middlingly powerful Air Slash. Ledian also lacks a threatening coverage movepool, making it struggle to meaningfully impact a match through direct damage.

Although difficult, it is possible for a Pokemon to overcome the disadvantages of its typing and movepool with a strong statline or Ability set, but Ledian is an exception. Pinch Abilities like Swarm are niche and unreliable, especially for mediocre attacking types like Bug, and Iron Fist only encourages Ledian to use its Rank 3 Attack stat. That isn't its only bad stat, though, as Ledian also boasts a truly impressive 80/3/4/4/8/85 stat line. Wow! I thought Parasect was the worst purchasable Pokemon, excluding gimmicks like Wobbuffet, but at least Parasect doesn't have 80/4 bulk on the side that has more moves of the typing that exploits its greatest weakness.

This Pokemon actually enters the territory of comical forgettability. In Gen VII, Ledian's counterpart Ariados received a signature Move, Toxic Thread. What did Ledian receive in its last appearance in a main series title to date? That's right: nothing! Compounding this neglect, the generation of Ledian's removal also saw the introduction of Orbeetle, an early-game Bug-type ladybird Pokemon with a space motif; a semi-fast, specially biased, and defensively-oriented stat distribution; a movepool built around team support, stat boosting moves, and Baton Pass; and a competitively usable 505 BST. It's like GameFreak liked Ledian's concept but wanted to forget about the Pokemon itself.

Not even our own pastime of BBP is immune to this habit. While Ariados's Toxic Thread received a huge buff to incentivize the Pokemon's use, Ledian's treatment followed a different path. If you were tasked with identifying the Iron Fist with access to the largest amount of burst healing, you'd probably pick Infernape because you're trained to (rationally) prioritize usable Pokemon. Nevertheless, Ledian can match Infernape's Slack Off with Roost or exceed it by 50% with Early Bird Rest. You might think that this has potential for cool interactions with the newly buffed Iron Fist, and you'd be right because it really does. However, what's really uncool is the fact that Iron Fist inherently jeopardizes Ledian's longevity by incentivizing play against Pokemon weak by Ledian's punch Moves despite the fact that this group unequivocally destroys Ledian. Good luck showing off that enticing power bonus of ten (10) against Tyranitar, Galarian Darmanitan, Hisuian Arcanine, Stratagem, Aggron, Weavile, Garchomp, or Gliscor! Even the average 8-Attack, Muscle Band-wielding Normal- or Water-type Pokemon can deal 30 damage to Ledian with a coverage Stone Edge, which exactly cancels Ledian's Recovery Move.

If you really want a laugh, I'll note that Ledian holds a certain ignominious honor. One of the highest possible single-action damage outputs with Rock-type attacks is Choice Band neutral-Natured Archeops's Head Smash, which deals 62 damage to a Pokemon with Rank 4 Defense and a x4 weakness to Rock; with Stealth Rock and Tatsugiri support—which are realistically achievable in the "Bring N Pick M" format favored by competitive venues—it instead deals 81 damage. Now, what Pokemon do we know that has Rank 4 Defense, a Bug / Flying typing, and 80 HP?

In conclusion, Ledian is a bad joke that somehow manages to miserably lose matchups in which each of its Recovery Moves is worth 60 HP across both Pokemon. I basically only remember this thing's existence because I included Ledyba in the flavor text of my old Flying Gym arenas. GameFreak could have saved us considerable trouble by just making Orbeetle a cross-generational Ledian evolution.

(Early Bird is admittedly a boon, as is access to Toxic, Knock Off, and Screens, but these factors can't redeem a Pokemon with Ledian's striking flaws.)


heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Remember this?
As we've approached a year of Generation 9 BBP, we mods have been cooking a balance pass for the game to make sure we're living up to the fantasy of using (almost) any Pokemon for something, somewhere. Now's as good a time as any to get your feedback in, while we're busy with opening facilities. It can be a good reminder as to which mons need somewhere to Level Up!

Also, we're broadening this thread to also encompass any other game piece — items, conditions, moves, and more. We don't promise to act on every suggestion, but we promise to read them all. Beisdes, this is BBP. Surely you can find something to complain about in public, given the chance?

(With a 40 HP Early Bird Rest, we'll have to see if Iron Fist can save Ledian yet.)
You know, if Power Weight worked on Abilities, Ledian could max out Iron Fist's boost in a single turn. Although the broader ramifications on things such as Hospitality / Regenerator (i.e. Tangrowth) and multi-battle Water Absorb and friends might be undesirable, it would certainly be funny to see our ladybug friend earn a spread of 120 net damage against punch-weak opponents with only one Move.

Now, let's see what complaints can be raised tonight.

:dipplin:: It has good Abilities, but its other attributes prevent it from fully utilizing this strength. The longevity afforded to Dipplin by its combination of Sticky Hold, Gluttony, and Leftovers is compromised by the unfortunate weaknesses to common attacking types. Moreover, Dipplin can't really do anything with this prolonged lifetime; stage-boosting Moves—especially single-stage boosters like Dipplin's Growth—and Defense Curl + Rollout are now too expensive to use repeatedly, which restricts Dipplin's offensive presence to Grass- and Dragon-type Moves and Gyro Ball launched from 6/7/40 offenses without the aid of an Item. This problem would be lessened if Dipplin could leverage its survivability with access to hazards or a better source of passive damage than Infestation, but Dipplin is given no such luxury. It's easily the worst of Applin's evolutions, none of which are particularly good, as it lacks the potential x-factor granted by such traits as Hustle, IronPress, Grav Apple/Apple Acid, or even Ripen.

As this is the generation of Pokemon defined by unique custom elements, I would be remiss not to mention Dipplin's exclusive offerings. Dipplin's Movepool is generally too accurate to gain much use from Supersweet Syrup, relegating the Move to multi-battles and Raids. Syrup Bomb's harsh, persistent debuff is a potentially effective method of forcing switches and augmenting Dipplin's natural bulk, but Dipplin's vulnerability to the ubiquitous Bad Poison status blunts the Move's effectiveness in traditional formats. Although not as much of a "Free Win" button as Toxic Thread would have been for Ariados, this Move would have at least given Dipplin a unique and powerful role in Raids as a defensive support 'mon that could quickly, meaningfully, and permanently increase its entire team's survivability against solo bosses...until the Raid Frontier emerged from its testing phase with a rule that limited the duration of non-Major Status conditions used on Bosses to a single round.

I'll probably still buy one because bad Grass-types and insane speculation on the future worth of mediocre Pokemon are two pleasures of this game that I rarely find the opportunity to indulge, but this shouldn't be interpreted as a genuine endorsement of Dipplin's viability.

Most Self-Sacrificing Moves: In order to be good, a Move from this category must return a value that is disproportionately related to its user's HP in a manner that favors its user or that equals an opponent's entire remaining health bar. Explosion is the prime example: regardless of their Pokemon's remaining HP, a player can order Explosion to remove ~1/4 to 1/3 of the opposing Pokemon's health. In contrast, the remaining Self-Sacrificing Moves are fundamentally incapable of accomplishing the same goal.
  • By restoring less HP than its user paid to perform the Move, Healing Wish's net value is always negative because Energy KO's are fleetingly rare and KO subs are ubiquitous and costless, giving every slower opponent the opportunity to set up, heal themselves, or lay hazards as the Healing Wish user faints.
  • Memento is designed to facilitate a setup sweeper's role fulfillment, but the reduced value of stage changes in BBP as compared to cartridge games means that Memento fails to meaningfully enable an extended boosting process against a resisting opponent.
  • Bluntly, Final Gambit was excessively nerfed as collateral damage when its strongest user enjoyed an irreproducible performance during a perfect storm of Pokemon unfamiliarity and positive matchups in a unique format that also gave it 20 extra HP and equalized its opponents maximum health to its own. To optimize the value of a Final Gambit user, the Move must be used in the neighborhood of its HP cap; the problem is that this is 2HKO territory for virtually all matchups, so let's examine a user's options at that point.
    • If the Final Gambit user is slower than its opponent and has Speed control, it can generally earn at least 40 HP in value by slowing its opponent and then using a super-effective attack, status condition, or hazard, which can also be used strategically to allow a formerly slower teammate to KO the user's opponent in revenge.
    • If the Final Gambit user is slower than its opponent but lacks Speed control, it will take enough damage on the action it uses Final Gambit that the Move's value will drop to ~10-17 HP, which is nearly always inferior to the amount of HP value offered by a regular attack or status condition. Moreover, if the Final Gambit user has access to Priority attacks, Final Gambit becomes less attractive still because its potential user can then double the Move's value with a second attack or combo.
    • If the Final Gambit user is faster than its opponent, it will often find at least 40 HP in value in a pairing of two Moves from the categories mentioned in the first case.
This is to say that Final Gambit's value never exceeds that of simply ordering normally in the vast majority of matchups; unless you're using something like Ninjask, which is so atrociously bad by its own merits that it can fairly be excluded from a discussion of Final Gambit's competitive use, it's plainly better to use the rest of a Pokemon's movepool.

Recovery Moves: These Moves have suffered from severe power creep as the generations have passed. Recovery Moves were designed for a period of the game in which the average strong attacker's damage fell within the 20-27 range, and Pyroak, with its 15-BAP STAB Weight-based Moves, was practically the only Pokemon that could reliably 3HKO its opponents. By Generation IX, the same archetype is now threatening 27-30+ damage per hit; Recovery Moves just can't compete in this faster metagame. Power Weight helps, but the fact that Recovery Moves are a limited resource makes the game-long sacrifice of a Pokemon's Item slot for the benefit of something that can only be used twice unappealing.

Endure: It currently does little to benefit the game. Even in aggregate, passive damage isn't threatening enough to warrant exchanging an action for Endure's first effect, so the Move is limited in scope to providing an emergency exit to the emergency exit provided by OHKO Moves, which I don't exactly believe are healthy game elements for reasons outside of the scope of this thread.
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I'm going to try to avoid mentioning all the usual stuff, with the exception of "so where are you supposed to level Unown exactly".

Instead have some new and exciting complaints!

Infatuation from Cute Charm and Destiny Knot currently just doesn't work at low levels, because if the enemy doesn't know the move Attract, they are immune to these as well. (and it doesn't work at all in raids, for the same reason.) I like the immunity setup overall, but if it's going to be a lv3 move, I feel like the status should say something like "Pokemon whose species does not learn Attract are unaffected by this move" instead.

Pamtre Berry & friends don't feel worthwhile to me; I think the global change of as many berries as possible to start of round is good, but it means that if you fail to both inflict a status and hit them twice after in the first round you're out you got a strictly worse gem.

Type Weakness Berries might be fine, but I'd actually like to see them add two additional resistances (halving damage, like in-game). I'd say overall this still compares unfavourably to Jaboca.

I would really like Power Lens to be good, but I just don't think it is. I don't have a real argument on this one other than "I bought one and was excited for it and then have never found a place to use it".

Forewarn also hasn't felt useful to me so far; I think the inability to add extra clauses makes it very hard to use safely/without getting exploited.

Think that's all I have for now.
Here are some more thoughts.

Mirror Herb: This would be a good Item if it wasn't automatically consumed at the start of a round. While I can understand the logic of giving the Item an immediate use to prevent its holder from "wasting" an Item slot for the entire game, I posit that a situation in which a player needs to equip Mirror Herb is one in which the threat posed by a specific stat-boosting opponent is sufficiently great that it cannot be allowed to occur successfully at any point in the game. Mirror Herb fails to deter such threats because its single-round duration can be easily stalled; if its timing were like those of Type-Resist Berries, though, it would effectively be able to ward off such threats for its holder's entire lifespan.

Mental Herb: Similarly to the above situation, a Pokemon that needs to hold a Mental Herb is usually so greatly dependent on its Other Moves that it cannot afford to be deprived of them for even a single round. A Mental Herb that grants a round of protection against Taunt and friends would effectively deter opponents from using such Moves for the entire game, but a Mental Herb that indiscriminately activates upon sendout can be stalled out and abused.
Also, Fresh-Start Mochi technically provides superior Taunt protection because it guarantees your opponent will use an action sub-optimally before being able to disable your Other Moves.

Light Clay: The loss of all combinations was already too great of a price to pay for extra turns of halved damage, so Light Clay certainly won't see use now that Screens' protective capabilities have been nerfed.

Weak Armor: It once had minor yet consistent uses in giving Mandibuzz free Speed boosts, amplifying Armorouge's Stored Powers, and conditionally allowing other users to swing certain matchups against physical attackers. Now it's basically a dead Ability because its users generally find (Special) Defense boosting Moves inefficient or unlearnable.

Choice Items: Choice Band and Choice Specs are only viable in two situations: pre-Teal Mask Level 0-1 battles, in which substitution-worthy Moves were scarce, and Raids, in which opponents' orders are predictable and automated. In other scenarios, the loss of two substitutions is too severe of a cost to justify these Items' use. Meanwhile, Choice Scarf is a forgettable Item that seems to be outclassed by Quick Claw as a tool for quick hits.


heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
I think you should look at ongoing and prior circuits before writing off Choice Band or Specs... They're together among the most attached and the most winning items in the format.

I also think most players are quite high on Weak Armor as well.
I couldn't call myself by any means an expert on this game, or the balance thereof, but there is one particular game piece I've found to be consistently underwhelming...

:flygon::mismagius::carnivine:Mono-Levitate has got to be up there as one of the worst ability sets in the game. In a format where mons regularly have two or even three useful abilities, being saddled with this piece of garbage as your one and only ability feels miserable. Whereas on cart it at least provides its users with a helpful capacity to safely switch in on ground-type moves, here it only serves to turn off ground-type stabs that opponents wouldn't be clicking against you anyways, as it's simply better to aim for weaknesses.

Now, it isn't so bad on mons like Eelektross, where it patches up a weakness (in its case, its only weakness). However, the majority of mono-Levitate users do not have a ground type weakness, and one even has a ground-type resistance. In such cases, you might as well have no ability at all; In fact, it would at times be actively better to have no ability than to have Levitate, as it can turn into a liability in certain cases (for example, using Role Play against Flygon turns off its ground moves, and it obnoxiously is one of the ground types that doesn't get Smack Down).

It's my understanding that Hydreigon as well as certain unreleased legendaries are gatekeeping mono-Levitate from receiving any useful buffs. However, I would be inclined to question why these mons need to have effectively no ability, when other similarly statted mons are allowed to have good or even excellent abilities (see, for example, every other pseudo-legendary). Even Pressure has some degree of usefulness despite gamefreak slapping it on every legendary ever. Would it truly be game-breaking for mono-Levitate to have something, anything, that makes it legitimately useful?

--Signed, a person with 5 mono-Levitate mons
I think you should look at ongoing and prior circuits before writing off Choice Band or Specs... They're together among the most attached and the most winning items in the format.
Okay, that was a good suggestion. What impressed me about the League Circuit data is not so much the usage/win rates of Choice Band and Choice Specs, though, but rather the ease with which a player can minimize the risk involved in ordering first with one of those Items or bypass first order entirely.

To remain on topic, I'll point out that Curious Medicine is an empty slot outside of certain Realgam simulations, that Propeller Tail and Stalwart are even less applicable than Curious Medicine because said simulations don't guarantee the event of fighting a foe that can redirect attacks, and that Rotom-S can't even pretend that Levitate is a limited version of Telepathy for Raids as can the other mono-Levitate Pokemon.
I really like the utility effects added to moves like Ember/Thunder Shock/Vine Whip/Water Gun, moves that otherwise would have no real use. There are other moves that are similarly pointless but without the utility (Leafage/Tackle/a handful of others probably). Is there potential for us to chime in with potential effects for these, are they going to be left useless, or is there some other grand plan for these moves?

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