Balance?

Hey all. For the longest time I have had decent success battling on WI-FI with a Sandstorm based team emphasizing a Stall-ish sort of battle technique with the proverbial Yache-Chomp "cherry" on top. With his recent bump up to uberdom though I decided it was time to hang up my old team and attempt to create a new one.

Now the title comes from my hope to create a balanced team as opposed to the more popular Stall or All-Out Offense Teams. But if my new team doesn't cut it, expect another RMT with an AOOT theme from me in the near future xD Ok then onto the mons.

Team Overview

dpmfa469.png
Spr_4d_121.png
dpmfa251.png
dpmfa485.png
Spr_4d_130_m.png
dpmfa094.png
________________________________________________


Spr_b_g4_469.png

Yanmega @ Focus Sash
Modest | Speed Boost
6 Defense / 252 Sp. Attack / 252 Speed

- Protect
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power Ground




Arguably the best lead ever. Yanmega makes a fantastic lead for its ability to ruin so many other common leading Pokemon. Bug Buzz on this guy is just downright ridiculous and is immensely useful in taking on two common leads that typically ruin my day : Deoxys and Azelf. DS D-S, which thank God is now "Suspect," ran all over me in a couple of battles. But with Yanmega leading Deoxys is no big deal as they typically go for the Taunt and eat a Bug Buzz. Azelf leads seem to always lay SR down first giving me the chance to smack 'em around a little, and Focus Sash provides extra security for the Dragonfly.

Also im not sure whether to stick with HP Ice or if i should switch to HP Ground. Though Garchomp is NBD anymore, there are plenty of other reasons to run HP Ice (*cough*Salamence).



Spr_b_g4_121.png

Starmie @ Leftovers
Timid | Natural Cure
160 HP / 132 Sp. Attack / 216 Speed

- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Recover




The first part of my Defensive Team is the standard Rapid Spinning Starmie.

Let me take a moment to explain my defensive strategy.

The defensive core of my team is based on the Water/Grass/Fire strategy that seems to be pretty common. Starmie will most likely attract Electric and Grass attacks which are ably handled by my Grass member - Celebi. Celebi will most likely attract Fire and Ghost based attacks which are capably handled by the Defensive Fire Pokemon (Oxymoron?), Heatran. Heatran will probably attract Water and Ground type attacks which Starmie happily take for minimal damage.

The extra Rapid Spin support provided by this guy works wonders as it allows both Gyarados and Yanmega more opportunities to get in and do their thing.


Spr_b_g4_251.png

Celebi @ Leftovers
Bold | Natural Cure
252 HP / 252 Defense / 6 Sp. Defense

- Leech Seed
- Thunder Wave
- Grass Knot
- Recover




Part two of the Defense is Celebi. Its your standard fare, Leech Seeding and Paralyzing anything and everything. Im incredibly tempted to run Psychic over Thunder Wave on this guy, as it might provide me some extra consistent power for various Pokemon. The only downside to Psychic though is the fact that, in general, its a poor attacking type.


Spr_b_g4_485.png

Heatran @ Life Orb
Modest | Flash Fire
252 HP / 96 Defense / 100 Sp. Attack / 60 Sp. Defense

- Earth Power
- Lava Plume
- Rest
- Sleep Talk




Part trois of my legendary trio is Heatran. Rest-Talk Heatran to be precise. Happily absorbs all status, and either Rests it off or gets a Boost from it (WoW). I decided to have this guy sport a Life Orb for some extra bam in his attacks, since he will most likely be Rest-ing off his damage on a consistent basis. Pretty standard and self-explanatory i guess.


Spr_b_g4_130_m.png

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Adamant | Intimidate
72 HP / 252 Attack / 184 Speed

- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquale
- Ice Fang




All-Out Attacking Life Orb Dragon Dance Gyarados scares the poop out of everyone. If it doesn't... well then it should. Thanks to Starmie, this guy wont have to worry too much about the potential problems SR might cause and can freely switch in on the various things it scares (Heatran, Lucario, Etc.). Though Stone Edge seems to be quite popular as of late in the last move-slot, it really only provides me with coverage against other Gyarados. And since Celebi can typically take almost anything opposing Gyarados can dish out im opting for the supreme coverage that Ice Fang will provide.


Spr_b_g4_094.png

Gengar @ Leftovers
Hasty | Levitate
184 Attack / 72 Sp. Attack / 252 Speed

- Hypnosis
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Punch




I absolutely am in love with this guy. I stole this set from someone a while back, and it has been a part of my life ever since. The special attack EVs allow for 2HKOs on all your typical fare, such as Salamence and Co, while the attack EVs allow for a 2HKO on the 252/252 Bold Blissey. Gengar can quickly rip through teams that dont suspect its Move-Set and is an explosive Pokemon that the opponent will find difficult to deal with. Though I like the healing benefits of Black Sludge, ive been debating whether or not to place a Life Orb on this fellow in order to enhance his attacking abilities. I do have Vaporeon who could pass Wishes if necessary so opinions would be much appreciated.



Help?

Here are some concerns I have with this team. Hopefully someone can help me resolve them ^^

  • Steath Rock. The lack of SR support on my team is kinda bothersome as it could easily provide me the slight edge neccessary to win a match. So easy to set up and yet I just can't find a place to fit it in.
  • Rapid Spin. I know i only have one Pokemon weak to SR (Yanmega), but Rapid Spin support is always a useful and welcome addition. I thought about using a Spinner Starmie in place of Vaporeon, but the loss of Wish Support would be a significant damper on the team overall. FIXED
  • Blissey. Yeah everyone hates the Pink Blob, but i love it. In fact i should say ive become over-dependent on it. For that reason its absent from this team, though it has been on all of my teams since i started playing. The team lacks the traditional Special Sponge, thus im relying heavily on my prediction skill in order to take most Special Based assaults.
  • Im currently working on the Threat List and will edit that in soon. FIXED


Da Threats

Tyranitar
The beast known as T-Tar can typically be taken down with decent prediction. Especially if its the ever so common Choice Band Tyranitar. Depending upon what it comes in on, I can switch to Gengar or Gyarados to avoid Earthquakes, or Heatran to take the expected Crunch or Stone Edge and immediately threaten with a Earth Power to the face. Dragon Dancers would be a little more difficult to deal with, as are Special Based TTars.

Gyarados
Celebi. Only thing Celebi fears from Gyarados is an all out attacking Life-Orb set. Otherwise, it can Thunder Wave it to ruin any hopes for a sweep or 3HKO it with Grass Knot.

Infernape
Starmie works incredibly well against the standard Mixed Ape and is easily capable of 1HKO-ing with Surf.

Azelf
If it the a lead, Yanmega typically makes quick work of it. If it comes out mid-game, Heatran fares decently against it since it resists all of Azelfs most common attacks (Grass Knot, Flamethrower, Psychic, Explosion).

Electivire
Not too commonly seen, but i have met a few Mixed-Vires lately. Celebi does okay against the any that don't explicitly emphasis Sp.Atk and use Flamethrower. But i guess im kinda weak to a Mild Mixed E-Vire sweep.

Heracross
Like Tyranitar, Heracross requires prediction to take on. Depending on what it comes in on i could use Gengar to avoid the CC, or Heatran to eat up the Stone Edge/Megahorn. Sub-Salac set would be slighty difficult to take on if not dealt with early in the match.

Salamence
Yikes Salamence. This is the main reason im contemplating using HP Ice on Yanmega. Otherwise Salamence has a heyday running amuck through my team. Spec-mence isnt too hard to deal with, but +Speed Mixmence = Dead Team for me.

Togekiss
Celebi can T-Wave the flinch set to ruin that strategy, while Heatran can pretty much take on any choice sets not locked onto Aura Sphere.

Gengar
Scarf-Gar is a problem as i dont have anyone exceptionally fast on my team. But Heatran typically does a good job taking on most of Gengar's movepool not named Focus Blast. But in all honesty nothing can really counter a Gengar :|

Garchomp
Poor Fella.

Lucario
Celebi can take on Lucario's using Aura Sphere or CC, but otherwise has a difficult time with Crunch/Dark Pulse especially if i dont put Psychic in Celebi's moveset. Vise versa goes for Heatran. Gyarados can also make a decent switch in to deal with most the most common SD-Luke set. Luke could be a problem but like everything else is fairly predictable, so if its sporting a Life Orb Lucario can be steadily widdled down.

Starmie
Celebi does well against these guys since it only really fears Ice Beam, which will fail to 1HKO it, and can hit back with Grass Knot. Gengar can also threaten it w/ Shadow Ball.

Weavile
Heatran can deal with the sets that don't include Brick Break and Gyarados can come in with the Intimidate and deal with most attacks Weavile will be carrying. But i need help with this guy.

Dugtrio
Can you really counter a revenge killer? I guess if Celebi is at full health it could try to take one on, but the only hope i really have is to somehow revenge kill it myself :|

Porygon-Z
Heatran works decent against this guy, since Dark Pulse will to paltry damage and even a Nasty Plotted Tri-Attack doesn't 1HKO either. But i do have to watch out for Porygon-Zs running HP Fight.

Machamp
Unless its got Fire Punch/Blast, Celebi will do just fine against it. Especially if T-Wave turns into Psychic.

Snorlax
Can potentially be bad news, but if it doesnt run Crunch Gengar can try its luck with it, or i could send in Celebi to Leech Seed it. Typically Gengar can get in at least one un-expected Focus Punch before the Snorlax user knows whats coming.

Zapdos
Heatran isn't particularly afraid of it, and with HP Ice being relatively rare of WIFI, Celebi can stop it in its tracks as well.

Suicune
Celebi's Grass Knot 2HKOs the standard, or Leech Seed it but otherwise im not too sure what to do against this thing.

Breloom
Yanmega usually makes quick work of Breloom with a 4x Effective Air Slash. But Celebi can handle it as well.

Ninjask
Without any Phazzers, Ninjask could turn out to be a real pain. Another reason Stealth Rock support needs to fit in somewhere.

Metagross
Heatran can come in on any attack other then Earthquake and immediatly threaten with Lava Plume. If i see an EQ on its way i can send out Gengar to try and put it to sleep.

Heatran
Heatran really was the main reason i have HP Ground on my Yanmega, but HP Ice is almost neccessary in order to deal with pokemon such as Salamence. If Yanmega can't get rid of it, i can always send in Gyarados to Waterfall it into next Sunday.

Celebi
Heatran works fine against Celebi resisting both of its STAB attacks and threatening a Burn/Lava Plume. There is that HP Fight Celebi being traded through WIFI though, so i might just have to be slighty cautious of that.

Jirachi
"Heatran's powerful Fire attacks and his resistances to the majority of Jirachi's moves make him an excellent counter."

Dragonite
Another reason HP Ice could be nice on Yanmega. Ice Beam on Starmie can kind of deal with it.

Mamoswine
Who isnt Mamo weak?... Anyway im not quite sure what to do against this guy, other then try to predict its moves and switch to the apporiate pokemon.

Gallade
As stated in the analysis only way i could really beat this is through out-predicting the opponent. Wish me luck :|

Yanmega
Heatran works wonders against this bug as it resists both STAB attacks and the more common HP ICe. Obviously HP Ground would suck. Yet another reason i need to find room for SR.

Kingdra
Mixed Kingdra in the rain sucks. Its one of those pokes that i constantly have a hard time dealing with, but when i use it myself i always get walled. Anyway though Heatran is afraid of a Hydro Pump to the face, i can bring him in if i see a Draco Meteor coming, and then switch to Celebi for the obvious Surf/Hydro Pump that is surely to follow.

Roserade
Heatran can handle everything Roserade can dish out, since the best it can muster up is ~30% damage with a Leaf Storm. That is unless its packing HP Ground...

Scizor
and Heatran. But i have to be careful of Brick Break on this guy.

Conclusion

Like I previously stated, this is a completely new team so it is more then likely ive overlooked many things that are obvious yet crucial. Id really like it if you all could help me fix various things so that i can start tearing up the WIFI Battle Scene. And Thanks for taking the time to read this.
 
I'm pretty sure this is just something you inadvertently forgot, but you should change Lucario's nature and EVs to be oriented towards a physical set.

Don't use Life Orb on Gengar; the HP loss with Life Orb, combined with Substitute and the possible Stealth Rock and Sandstorm, will ensure that Gengar dies very quickly. In fact, use Leftovers over Black Sludge, because while Black Sludge can damage Trick users, it also gives them the chance to Trick it onto another of your Pokemon. Also, Psychic isn't that great on Celebi, since the main things you'll be hitting, Infernape and Gengar, are crippled by paralysis anyways. Celebi beats most other Fighting-types anyways, and doesn't have any business against Heracross to begin with.
 
If there is any reason to use Sun Punching Gar, then it would be to lure in Blissey whom Lucario takes out anyway, but Bliss switches out against Luke anyway. And if my theory is correct, you want to set up Yanmega for a sweep? I assume not since there is no indication of any pokemon getting set up for a sweep, and the fact that Yanmega is leading. That said, just use Focus Blast over Punch and switch the EVs from Atk to SpA and change nature to Timid. But it's only something to consider as Focus Punch Gar makes a great Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice lure who all wall Yanmega significantly.

Ice Beam over Toxic definitely, and also I will suggest HP Ground over Ice, as I think Vaporeon will do fine against any form of Salamence especially due to Protect, and you can hit Heatran and save the trouble for Vappy having to deal with more threats.
 
Thank you Stalefish. If i can keep Yanmega alive for longer then the first three or so turns of the match it poses as a great poke to sweep with late-game. And as you stated, i kind of use Gengar to deal with the common special walls, Bliss/Snorlax/Regice making it easier for my special based defense team to widdle down the opponent. Also, as you mentioned, Yanmega is then free to wreak havoc. But i see what your saying about Luke doing this job well too. I kinda keep him as my ace in the whole though so i do my best not to show it until its completely necessary. But i have been considering switching to Timid/Focus Blast since Focus Blast does a ton more damage to things like Heatran.

On Vaporeon, your absolutely right. Thanks.

On Yanmega HP Ground is what i had originally to provide extra back-up Ice. But with the way you put Vappy's effectiveness against Salamence and such im going to change it back.
 
Since you lack a spinner, Yanmega's appearences will be limited, so Lucario is there as a backup to kill those said special walls if the lure fails to do so.

Still, Vappy will be your only source of taking out Mence in the first place, especially to the fact that you lack your own SR thus Lucario unable to priority revenge kill. Right now there are so many options for the last slot on Celebi. Either of the Screens can be tested. SR can be tested. Or if none of those options do you any good, then stick with T-Wave. But any team has to have worries, and I think the team is as far as it gets, meaning it's at a point where making changes could go against you.
 
I've been working with the Celetran-Vaporeon combo for the last week or so. I've noticed that your team is especially weak to subgar, especially lead subgar. Not knowing if it is scarfed or not, mosy yanmegas protect first turn, at which point gengar will sub up. It will then be able to absolutely destroy your team. This team is also quite weak to the pur offensive LO/CM Suicune. I managed to play around that by either sleeping it or exploding on it with heatran, which your heatran lacks. Lastly, there is quite the Raikou weakness. If it sets up either a calm mind or a sub, it's game over.
 
Looking at the team, I noticed an extreme Life Orb Hasty Heatran weakness and it proved to be true when I saw no Hidden Power Ground on Yanmega as well as your own Heatran being Life Orbed and Modest. Vaporeon is the only "safe switch-in" although Heatran can still Explode or switch out. Gengar can't switch in, although may be able to sleep Heatran (although 70% is very risky for trying to win the game). Also don't forget that another Pokemon could be put to sleep. Lucario is your last hope and must be used as a revenge killer, meaning something is probably dying.

Now, while Lucario, Gengar, and Vaporeon can all try and take down Heatran, only Vaporeon has a really safe opportunity of doing it and if Vaporeon is taken out early, you are in trouble. I really think another Heatran counter could fit in well, being able to take him out. A few possible choices:

- Gyarados
- Salamence
- Blissey
- Moltres

I listed Moltres for a reason, one that I will get back to later. To identify which Pokemon you need, You really need to look at the other weaknesses as well.

Another Pokemon I found extremely dangerous to this team was Lucario @ SD / CC / Bullet Punch / Extremespeed

You really don't even have a counter to him, as 2/3 of the team is ohkoed by a SD Close Combat or Bullet Punch and Celebi and Yanmega (the 1/3 who might actually stand a chance, are still 2hkoed by SD Extremespeed (although Celebi may put up a fight). However, any well constructed team using Lucario and Stealth Rock will rip right through you and easily defeat you.

Speed is the third major problem, as fast threats such as Weavile or Alakazam could really rip through the team. The fact that your fastest threat is 350 Speed and the next fastest relies on Speed Boosts worries me. Scarf Gengar can really be a problem, especially if the opponents prediction skills are tuned.

Now with all of these weaknesses, we come back to our earlier list:

- Gyarados
- Salamence
- Blissey
- Moltres

Strike out Blissey, Lucario eats her up too easily. Salamence is too easily beaten by Weavile. Moltres would give you 2 Pokemon taking extreme damage from Stealth Rock. In fact, a Rapid Spinner seems to be needed on this team. If you include one (preferablly Starmie) be sure to put it over Vaporeon to ensure you still have a Heatran counter. However for now, let's stick to Gyarados who counters all of the above threats. Scarf Gengar is a problem still but the team can't be perfect. Fine prediction skill and constant switching will quickly wear it down.

Gyarados could fit in over 1. Lucario or 2. Celebi. A strong Life Orb set could be a serious threat and would be a perfect addition to the team.
 
Looking at the team, I noticed an extreme Life Orb Hasty Heatran weakness and it proved to be true when I saw no Hidden Power Ground on Yanmega as well as your own Heatran being Life Orbed and Modest. Vaporeon is the only "safe switch-in" although Heatran can still Explode or switch out. Gengar can't switch in, although may be able to sleep Heatran (although 70% is very risky for trying to win the game). Also don't forget that another Pokemon could be put to sleep. Lucario is your last hope and must be used as a revenge killer, meaning something is probably dying.

Now, while Lucario, Gengar, and Vaporeon can all try and take down Heatran, only Vaporeon has a really safe opportunity of doing it and if Vaporeon is taken out early, you are in trouble. I really think another Heatran counter could fit in well, being able to take him out. A few possible choices:

- Gyarados
- Salamence
- Blissey
- Moltres

I listed Moltres for a reason, one that I will get back to later. To identify which Pokemon you need, You really need to look at the other weaknesses as well.

Another Pokemon I found extremely dangerous to this team was Lucario @ SD / CC / Bullet Punch / Extremespeed

You really don't even have a counter to him, as 2/3 of the team is ohkoed by a SD Close Combat or Bullet Punch and Celebi and Yanmega (the 1/3 who might actually stand a chance, are still 2hkoed by SD Extremespeed (although Celebi may put up a fight). However, any well constructed team using Lucario and Stealth Rock will rip right through you and easily defeat you.

Speed is the third major problem, as fast threats such as Weavile or Alakazam could really rip through the team. The fact that your fastest threat is 350 Speed and the next fastest relies on Speed Boosts worries me. Scarf Gengar can really be a problem, especially if the opponents prediction skills are tuned.

Now with all of these weaknesses, we come back to our earlier list:

- Gyarados
- Salamence
- Blissey
- Moltres

Strike out Blissey, Lucario eats her up too easily. Salamence is too easily beaten by Weavile. Moltres would give you 2 Pokemon taking extreme damage from Stealth Rock. In fact, a Rapid Spinner seems to be needed on this team. If you include one (preferablly Starmie) be sure to put it over Vaporeon to ensure you still have a Heatran counter. However for now, let's stick to Gyarados who counters all of the above threats. Scarf Gengar is a problem still but the team can't be perfect. Fine prediction skill and constant switching will quickly wear it down.

Gyarados could fit in over 1. Lucario or 2. Celebi. A strong Life Orb set could be a serious threat and would be a perfect addition to the team.

You are basically sacrificing his only electric resist for another electric weak

An electric type would be able to hurt anything on this team
 
Stalefish : yeah the lack of Rapid Spin is kinda disheartening, but its the reason i limited the team to one SR weak poke. Im actually going to try and see if SR will work decently over Thunder Wave on Celebi, but im pretty sure im addicted to the mazz Paralysis Celebi usually causes to my opponents team xD Thank you for the suggestions.


scofield : i pretty much always lead with a Bug Buzz on anything that doesnt resist, because people ALWAYS expect a Protect. But that could go horribly wrong for me if im over predicting. As for Raikou and Suicune, i really hate both of them lol, my best bet is like you said.. try to sleep it and attempt prediction. Vaporeon does well against Suicune, but Raikou could spell trouble. any suggestions. Thanks for the help.


KD24 : You're absolutely correct. As i was going through the threat list, Heatran stuck out like a sore thumb. I changed back Yanmega to HP Ground but still some extra coverage couldn't hurt...

You are also correct about Scarf-Gar. I too noticed early on that no one on my team could really out-speed/kill a well predicting Scarf-Gar user. Ill have to bank on the fact that the opponent will assume im not running Bullet Punch on Lucario and attempt a revenge kill with it. But as you mentioned teams can't be 100% fool-proof so im not too sure what to do.

As for Lucario, yikes i knew i was weak but didnt realize how bad it was. 4/6 dead pokes doesnt sound like a good place to start. Celebi would be my initial switch in to T-Wave/Leech Seed to help steadily reduce his HP but other then that there isnt much i can do.

Your replacement suggestions seem to perfectly fit into the team. Since Celebi is a integral portion of my defensive strategy, im going to be switching Gyarados in and subbing out Lucario. Like you said Gyarados will work perfectly to take on the threat of Heatran/Lucario w/ STAB Waterfall and Intimidate/Earthquake respectively.

With the introduction of Gyarados though, im pretty much going to have to have a Spinner. As you suggested, Starmie will fit this role perfectly. Though the extra Wish Support will be missed sorely, I cant risk SR ruining the chances of a clean sweep from either Yanmega or Gyarados.

But with these two introductions Scarf-Gar is going to be even more trouble lol.

Thank You so much for the critical analysis, I really appreciate you taking the time to delve so deeply into the analysis and helping me work on my team. BTW i think the Sub-Punching Gengar i have was taken from you xD So thanks for that too!


HotPocket : ill be keeping Celebi since like you mentioned, an Electric Poke would pose a problem.
 
Ok so i've been playing around with this team for quite a bit now. Was hoping people could provide some insight into the final few decisions/adjustments id like to make.

1st ) The slot currently occupied by Starmie is something Im debating. I've been switching back and forth between Wish Passing Vaporeon and Spinning Starmie. While Vaporeon not only provides Wish support, it helps a lot in dealing with that damn Outrage Mence. Starmie falls too fast to that thing. But with two Pokemon severely weakened by SR, the spinning ability of Starmie is really nice to have... See the conundrum? :|

2nd ) Gengar. Gengars are trouble for me and i need something to remedy this. Any sort really seems to hamper my team unless i predict them turn for turn.


Id really appreciate some final insight. thanks all!
 
Back
Top