Balanced Hackmons Evasion Clause Vote

[verbatim]

Why Evasion:

Many Smogon oriented Competitive Metagames have utilized an "Evasion Clause" wherein moves that explicitly affect a Pokemon's evasion stat are banned because it adds a significant amount of luck to the game, even moreso than many others. Due it's adaptability, the Balanced Hackmons metagame has a much greater ability to shift to handle pressures that might otherwise strain or break other Smogon metagames, however, due to an increased outcry from players in the suspect discussion thread, it has been made clear that people are still finding trouble with evasion in the BH metagame. For that reason this poll is being made.

Why Evasion first

I have had a very busy time with college and, as a result, the amount of time that I have been able to allocate to working on Pokemon related endeavors has gone down drastically. In posting this I am completely aware that the question of what to do with the -ates abilities is significantly more important than evasion. However, I do not have time at this moment to think on what specific options would be best for a vote on the -ates. You can rest assured that that will be next.

How the poll will be interpreted:

The poll will be closed next Friday, October 16th, at the earliest, with the potential to go through Saturday and Sunday if discussion is heated and or there is a large turnout. If there is a clear winner and more than 50 votes have been cast total, the winning decision will be implemented. If there are less than 50 votes and/or the decisions's have a close number of votes, I reserve the right to extend the poll's length until we reach 50, or, in the event that that does not work, choose a winner from the suspect thread based on quality of arguments.



Edit, for the purposes of Balanced Hackmons, an Evasion Clause will refer to the banning of moves that always increase a Pokemon's evasion such as Minimize or Double Team. Abilities and items will currently not be affected by an Evasion clause if it is voted for, but that could be suspect to change. If you feel strongly about items and abilities with the potential to increase evasion, please post below.

 

[verbatim]

Final Tally

64 for

20 against

The aye's have it, I'll talk to some people about getting the update put in as soon as possible

 

[verbatim]

You may now post/vote

 

[Ransei]

This is just making Balanced Hackmons more legit... I can imagine this turning into slightly hacked ubers or even replaced by ubers which is already there.

 

[MAMP]

While I am generally opposed to bans in BH, I voted yes on this one. Evasion is boring and frustrating to play against, makes the game hinge more on luck, and overall just makes the meta less competitive and less enjoyable to play. Also, introducing an evasion clause will make it easier for players who are more familiar with standard tiers to start playing BH. I do not see any potential downside to introducing an evasion clause.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

Mamp eloquently summed up all of my thoughts on the matter. I'm really tired of the simple Minimize sets all over the low ladder. It's no fun at all to deal with and makes the meta less competitive.

 

[Lcass4919]

i have already expressed all my opinions in the bh suspect discussion thread. however, a small point i want to make is evasion forces ridiculous luck factor and forces many teams to enter "coinflip mode" in which if chansey loses, you lose. but if it wins, you win. i cannot express how mad it makes me, when i have to bank a win on a coin-flip that i cannot control the occurrence of happening in any way even when i am outplaying said person HEAVILY. even if i win 90% of the time since my "vs evasion" luck is godlike. its still an annoying feeling. and its not like you expect minimize. if there was a distinct way to notice evasion users, then yeah, id be skeptical about this ban. but its no more odd to see a shuckle use minimize as it is seeing a mega mewtwo y use it.

you cannot tell me "using minimize requires skill" or "only skilled players can use it properly" because i have been consistantly high on the ladder, and i can't make minimize work. even when my team synergizes well, and i set up to max evasion, i always seem to get the bottom end of the stick using evasion. and my BEST teams have lost to pokemon SOLELY because i couldn't hit them through evasion, and my chansey couldn't hit my opponent, and yet it hit me twice thus ko-ing it.

also adding to what mamp said, there really IS no downside to banning it. or at least, not one justifiable to rethink this decision. i mean, people have shown ways to handle minimize yeah, but no one has given a reason to keep it other then "prankster users can topsy/haze it" or "unawares exist" which god knows unawares are practically more dead then prankster groudon. i mean, if the best checks(they aren't even counters since stored power maims both enless dark type and even then, they can run mold breaker or something to get around unaware and it is impossible to spot a minimize user.) are both slowly dying off in the meta, then obviously there's a problem.

geez, i ended up going off again in a rant.
tldr: if your too lazy to read the above, don't bother, its not super necessary to read or anything.

 

[DinaIsha]

While Evasion itself is unhealthy to the Metagame because of the luck factor, most teams utilize Substitute alongside it to make it even more ridiculous. Skill Swap Chansey can deal with it to some extent, but it's down, then there's no stopping the opponent. I guess if you could convince people not to use Substitute with Evasion, it'd be more manageable. We obviously can't do that, so a ban is well deserved.

 

[JungleB]

As somebody who has attempted to find a way to utilize evasion in a skill based way, evasion is pretty much incompatible with skill.

Due to the fact that you may find yourself relying on evasion, you are more tempted to make riskier plays. This means that should the RNG decide to troll you, you are much more likely to go down.

While evasion itself shouldn't be an issue, (in fact, by making it less likely for each battle to be the same, it should make the meta more interesting... on paper) the issue here is people relying on luck. A bit of luck that doesn't drastically change the outcome of the game is OK. But relying on luck to the point where you need it to win is just asking to be haxed into oblivion.

So, do I think luck is uncompetitive? In small doses, no. But when you use it so much that you need it win, is when you start becoming uncompetitive. And unfortunately, the only way to stop the reliance on luck without a complex ban that prevents you from getting pass +2 evasion or something, is to ban it all together.

to;dr, It is how people rely on in in order to win, and not how dumb or uncompetitive it is that has urged me to say ban evasion.

 

[Filia]

It's been a long time since I went there, kind of awkward.

Well, for sure, Evasion is that one controversial stat since the beginning of competitive plays. We used to know how to deal with it back then, with Unaware, Haze, Perish song [blabla]. But i'm pretty sure that gen6 and the recent changes made those options more likely to be unavailable.

I mean, yeah you can manage to get rid of that mon with the evasion boost, but what did it cost to you ? Half of your team ?

I won't speak much mostly because everyone told the right reasons in my opinion (and because it's quite difficult for me to speak in English without any grammar mistakes :/), so here is the :

tl;dr Counterplays are difficult to effectively use in a well built team because of the lack of power, and the effective speed a minimize user can set up.

 

[Nig Nasty Af]

Ok I dodnt want to get into a rant but evasion is completely uncompetitive but especially in balanced hackmons. The reason it is so cheap is that not only does simple exist doubling how quickly someone can set it up but any pokemon can get magic bounce or even worse ingrain making well executed baton pass teams nearly unstoppable. Even when not used with baton pass its unhealthy so I vote BAN EVASION.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Bro why are we tryna suspect evasion its how i got good in the first place,,,

Evasion isn't luck based for a multitude of reasons-

1. is it really luck that i clicked the evasion boosting move? : I myself made a conscius, skillful, decision to click Double Team (the most skillful boosting move) and if my opponent just happened to be weak to it then oh well.

2. its not broken cuz you can use it too ! : this is the driving force behind my argument of why evasion clearly isn't broken. if ur having trouble with a stored power psychicceus that you cant hit, get a stored power darkceus that they cant hit either. boom ur done! havent you wanted all of your matches to be 5000 turns of you and ur opponent not being able to hit each other. I know Adrian Marin does and you should too if you want to win

3. it doesnt cause 50/50s like aegislash did in ou which was why that was banned. :

100% vs. +1 evasion = 75.19%
100% vs. +2 evasion = 59.88%
100% vs. +3 evasion = 50.00%
100% vs. +4 evasion = 42.91%
100% vs. +5 evasion = 37.45%
100% vs. +6 evasion = 33.33%
100% vs. +6 evasion with Brightpowder = 30.00%
100% vs. +6 evasion + Sand Veil / Snow Cloak + Brightpowder = 24.00%

ok so maybe it does cause 50/50s but only at +3 +2 AND +4 and +6 are the only ones youll ever be at though so i dont get it. there arent any 50/50s like this isnt as broken as aegislash was because your opp has less of a chance to hit than 50% making it more balanced. on the topic of 50/50s why arent inferno and zap cannon banned too. those moves cause 50/50s because of their accuracy and so did aegislash so they should be banned.

So I vote dont BAN EVASION for the reasons listed above. (everyone else already brought up everything needed to be said so i thought i'd humor you.(also if it wasnt clear earlier i am voting ban evasion lol))

 

[daniel 2.0]

it is going to be yes

people do not use it much but it is annoying

 

[JungleB]

So, I figured I would just elaborate more on what I said earlier. So as I said earlier, evasion shouldn't be uncompetative. Key word: shouldn't. However, it's when people start relying on it to win that it becomes uncompetative. People think that having minimize on one of their pokemon is considered a strategy. However, any player would know that putting swords dance on a pokemon isn't considered a strategy. It's swords dance combined with other moves and pokemon that makes it a strategy. But because of how game changing evasion is, people begin to consider it a strategy by itself, when it's using evasion as a backdrop to a pokemon to allow it to set up easier or something, that should be considered a strategy. While I'm not saying all people who use evasion rely on it to win, but a huge amount of people who do use it actually do rely on it. Plus, let's face it, the outcome of a game being decided by an RNG just isn't enjoyable. Nobody wants to lose a game just because they didn't build a team around their moves ACTUALLY HITTING.

So, I recently I made an alt to test out (what I think is) a decent baton pass team. I proceeded to lose my first battle because somebody batton passed max evasion onto this set:
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: ???
??? Nature
- Shell Smash
- Infestation
- Water Shuriken
- Extreme Speed
As you can see, the set was pretty bad. No STAB, no moves over 80 power, the only good part about it was the pokemon itself, and simple shell smash. And yet, despite how horrible the set was, I got swept by it. The rest of his team wasn't exactly what you would call good either. Here's the replay (i'm plz don't forfeit): http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-173296073

 

[AssCatch'm]

First off Balanced Hackmons is not your average meta as Verbatim has said it is highly adaptable. Bans should be absolutely minimal in this tier because that is the spirit of this tier, it is freedom, the only reason something should be banned is if it requires you to make your team in a non-versatile way to counteract one specific problem. For example Wonder Guard, counteracting this required a ridiculous emphasis on it in the construction of your team and it was useless otherwise because immunity is a rare problem, thus taking away from the overall creativity the tier is meant to inspire. Shadow Tag and Arena Trap also required strong countering because it didn't mean "oh add a ghost on your team cause it counters trapping." it wasn't that simple it required every single pokemon on you team to have a countering escape move because whatever pokemon you had out was stuck out and thus had to fend for itself. However Evasion is not one of these cases all the counters to it are rather simple and versatile meaning having something that counters it is not completely useless it is useful in several other situations mostly due to the fact it is a stat. Stats are a big deal in this tier because anything can buff itself at any time which brings me to the most obvious counter Topsy-Turvy, Heart Swap, Curse, Perish Song, even Haze, these moves are useful in nearly every match and put them on a prankster (which I personally think every team should have one) and you'll laugh at evasion or any other stat based build. Another rather obvious one is there are moves (including Topsy-Turvy) that have - for their accuracy stat this means they always hit evasion or not and this is not the most appealing part of these moves most of them are all around good moves such as Aurasphere. Another obvious counter is No Guard which although does counter evasion has far greater uses as well such as the rather popular Zap cannon, Dynamic-Punch, Sing, Mewtwo-Mega-Y build which can sweep but is also "luck" based. Although it is annoying you can counter it rather easily without having to sacrifice any freedom in your team-building. I think the biggest problem with Evasion is simply that people aren't used to it because its not in any other tiers (not saying it should be) overall the people who get mad about things in Balanced Hackmons are the people lower on the ladder who simply don't know enough about pokemon as a whole to make an adequate team with everything in the game at their disposal and those are the kind of people who are quicker to complain and rush to the forums. Actually I can say with assurance that the reason your vote is going so well is because those people are far more likely to run here to vote to get rid of it than everyone else who know what they're doing will take the time to vote no to keep just another part of the game in, its obviously not the first thing on their mind they're busy playing the game without any problems. And the luck based argument is dumb quite frankly you people should know better this game is full of luck you're throwing a coin every time you use a move without 100% accuracy and paralysis and confusion are not any different. These are all things you will see very regularly and those people know what chance they're taking just like anyone who uses evasion knows that at any second they could get hit and killed because it does NOT make you untouchable which some of you seem to forget. But while we're talking about things that require you to build your team around and should be banned i want to mention something for debate that i think is odd that it hasn't been banned yet... Sturdinja. With Endeavor you cannot afford to swap when it is brought in or whatever you swap into will go to 1% hp (except ghost, every team should have one cause they're so useful) so I'm left putting a move like Infestation, Magma Storm, Whirlpool, etc. or some other form indirect dmg on nearly every pokemon just to deal with this annoying thing. It is just as bad as wonderguard if not worse. The only counter for it that is versatile is entry hazards, curse, or Spiky Shield. But a Volt Switch Sturdinja is an indefinite wall that will chip away at you, honestly if it were gone we would see some much more interesting hackmons and that is what this is all about because I don't know about you but I make every single detail of my hackmons count down to the item and fourth move slot its all well thought out and I shouldn't have to worry about adding indirect dmg.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

But while we're talking about things that require you to build your team around and should be banned i want to mention something for debate that i think is odd that it hasn't been banned yet... Sturdinja. With Endeavor you cannot afford to swap when it is brought in or whatever you swap into will go to 1% hp (except ghost, every team should have one cause they're so useful) so I'm left putting a move like Infestation, Magma Storm, Whirlpool, etc. or some other form indirect dmg on nearly every pokemon just to deal with this annoying thing. It is just as bad as wonderguard if not worse. The only counter for it that is versatile is entry hazards, curse, or Spiky Shield. But a Volt Switch Sturdinja is an indefinite wall that will chip away at you, honestly if it were gone we would see some much more interesting hackmons and that is what this is all about because I don't know about you but I make every single detail of my hackmons count down to the item and fourth move slot its all well thought out and I shouldn't have to worry about adding indirect dmg.

Firstly, this isn't the place to talk about additional bans. This is for discussing evasion only. Your part about Shedinja should have been posted in the actual BH thread.
Secondly, I'd argue that Shedinja isn't broken at all. Entry hazards are very very common and enough offensive pressure can make them hard to remove. Curse is a good counter for Shedinja, but I wouldn't say it's the best, in any shape or form. The ever-present Toxic seems to do a much better job, and if they are Lum + Recycle, you just Knock Off their berry. Also, Magma Storm/Infestation/Whirlpool are very good counters for the pesky bug. This is much less common, but I was experimenting with Sand teams recently, and this makes Shedinja very scared. If it's Lum + Recycle, it can't switch in at all when the sand is up. If it's got Safety Goggles, it dies to Knock Off from my Poison Healer.
You mentioned that Volt Switch Shedinja is difficult to deal with because it switches in and then disappears without any harm done to it. If you watch some of the really good players battle against people with Shedinja, you'd notice that they predict the Shedinja switch and use one of the aforementioned Shedinja-killing moves. If the Shedinja switches in the turn Magma Storm was used, assuming the move hits, the bug is dead. Yes it's a centralizing force in the metagame, but so is Chansey and we have already decided that Chansey will never be banned. Shedinja is not hard to counter, you just need to be prepared for it.

 

[Uselesscrab]

First of all, the post was really hard to read. It would have been easier to deal with if structured a bit differently.

Secondly, I was agreeing with your post until I saw this:

overall the people who get mad about things in Balanced Hackmons are the people lower on the ladder who simply don't know enough about pokemon as a whole to make an adequate team with everything in the game at their disposal and those are the kind of people who are quicker to complain and rush to the forums. Actually I can say with assurance that the reason your vote is going so well is because those people are far more likely to run here to vote to get rid of it than everyone else who know what they're doing will take the time to vote no to keep just another part of the game in, its obviously not the first thing on their mind they're busy playing the game without any problems.

I was taken aback. All of a sudden you switched from logic to sweeping generalizations regarding the nature of the Smogon userbase. Do you realize that the people who have thus far argued against evasion include some of the most successful and most experienced BH players, and in some cases ones who have topped the ladder numerous times? (E4 Flint and Lcass4919 come to mind.) The point is that these are not "people lower on the ladder," they in fact know quite a bit about Pokemon, and they are only "quicker to complain and rush to the forums" because they are active contributors to them. So maybe you should reconsider your concept of "everyone else who know what they're doing." This sounds harsh, but you can't just say blanket statements like that and expect people not to question them.

Other players, like Kl4ng, have made very valid cases in favor of evasion, too. I'm not going to state my personal thoughts on evasion because I'm undecided as of yet, so I won't address the rest of your argument.

As for this (which belongs in the suspect discussion thread, not here):

i want to mention something for debate that i think is odd that it hasn't been banned yet... Sturdinja. With Endeavor you cannot afford to swap when it is brought in or whatever you swap into will go to 1% hp (except ghost, every team should have one cause they're so useful) so I'm left putting a move like Infestation, Magma Storm, Whirlpool, etc. or some other form indirect dmg on nearly every pokemon just to deal with this annoying thing. It is just as bad as wonderguard if not worse. The only counter for it that is versatile is entry hazards, curse, or Spiky Shield. But a Volt Switch Sturdinja is an indefinite wall that will chip away at you, honestly if it were gone we would see some much more interesting hackmons and that is what this is all about because I don't know about you but I make every single detail of my hackmons count down to the item and fourth move slot its all well thought out and I shouldn't have to worry about adding indirect dmg.

"The only counter for it that is versatile is entry hazards, curse, or Spiky Shield."

I think you're forgetting about things like Mold Breaker, Will-o-Wisp, Sacred Fire, Leech Seed, Rocky Helmet, tricking Black Sludge, and even PP stall. All of these are perfectly viable ways of countering Shedinja and have other uses outside of doing so. Not to mention the ones you stated, which are also quite prevalent and useful. And partial trapping is not useful "just to deal with this annoying thing." It racks up damage on opponents, allows for setup, helps Poison Healers along the lines of Charizard Y, Houndoom-Mega and Mewtwo Y (admittedly, not the most common) deal with Imposters, and helps with Perish Trapping. You should have to worry about adding indirect damage, because Shedinja is just another threat to deal with, and there are many ways of doing so.

edit: ninja'd, but not entirely

 

[AssCatch'm]

Admittedly the Studrinja comment was better put in a more appropriate thread. And I'm sorry for the comment on people who are being more likely to complain because they don't know enough to go complain on the forums I could have worded that differently what I meant if it was not clear was that people are more likely to join the forum if they have something to complain about but that is not saying that all people on the forum are unknowledgeable or just here to complain but most people who play the game without any problems are far more likely to not go on the forums like myself the only reason i was led to this is because I faced someone with a rather good build that utilized evasion and when I complimented him on it he said too bad they're gonna ban it soon and when i asked him about it he linked me to here. I also have a Hackmon that uses evasion that I have used a couple times and often times i find the same people who whine about it when I use it also ask me several times throughout the battle what certain things are such as Thousand Arrows and Refrigerate/Aerilate/Pixilate are simply because they've never faced it before and not knowing often leads to anger not to mention this "lets ban it" has much more of a mob mentality then "lets defend it" so the vote will usually be much more biased to ban especially in a much less populated tier such as Balanced Hackmons. Voting on any teir except for the overly populated teirs like OU or UU is gonna get a much bigger turnout of the protesters rather than the protectors.

 

[Kit Kasai]

text wall

This is really not to discuss the method of going through a suspect / ban phase, rather discussing the suspect / ban itself. verbatim has stressed many times that he would like to keep the tier as open and community oriented as possible. That's the whole reason we're having a a vote in the first place. People have already asked him about perhaps making a council of several skilled players in the meta and he has refused that idea. If you really have a problem with having a vote, bring it up with verbatim, don't clutter this thread.

The whole point of a vote is to see what people want the tier to be. If it looks like people seem to side with wanting evasion banned, that's what they'll get.

 

[Lcass4919]

First off Balanced Hackmons is not your average meta as Verbatim has said it is highly adaptable. Bans should be absolutely minimal in this tier because that is the spirit of this tier, it is freedom, the only reason something should be banned is if it requires you to make your team in a non-versatile way to counteract one specific problem. For example Wonder Guard, counteracting this required a ridiculous emphasis on it in the construction of your team and it was useless otherwise because immunity is a rare problem, thus taking away from the overall creativity the tier is meant to inspire. Shadow Tag and Arena Trap also required strong countering because it didn't mean "oh add a ghost on your team cause it counters trapping." it wasn't that simple it required every single pokemon on you team to have a countering escape move because whatever pokemon you had out was stuck out and thus had to fend for itself. However Evasion is not one of these cases all the counters to it are rather simple and versatile meaning having something that counters it is not completely useless it is useful in several other situations mostly due to the fact it is a stat. Stats are a big deal in this tier because anything can buff itself at any time which brings me to the most obvious counter Topsy-Turvy, Heart Swap, Curse, Perish Song, even Haze, these moves are useful in nearly every match and put them on a prankster (which I personally think every team should have one) and you'll laugh at evasion or any other stat based build. Another rather obvious one is there are moves (including Topsy-Turvy) that have - for their accuracy stat this means they always hit evasion or not and this is not the most appealing part of these moves most of them are all around good moves such as Aurasphere. Another obvious counter is No Guard which although does counter evasion has far greater uses as well such as the rather popular Zap cannon, Dynamic-Punch, Sing, Mewtwo-Mega-Y build which can sweep but is also "luck" based. Although it is annoying you can counter it rather easily without having to sacrifice any freedom in your team-building. I think the biggest problem with Evasion is simply that people aren't used to it because its not in any other tiers (not saying it should be) overall the people who get mad about things in Balanced Hackmons are the people lower on the ladder who simply don't know enough about pokemon as a whole to make an adequate team with everything in the game at their disposal and those are the kind of people who are quicker to complain and rush to the forums. Actually I can say with assurance that the reason your vote is going so well is because those people are far more likely to run here to vote to get rid of it than everyone else who know what they're doing will take the time to vote no to keep just another part of the game in, its obviously not the first thing on their mind they're busy playing the game without any problems. And the luck based argument is dumb quite frankly you people should know better this game is full of luck you're throwing a coin every time you use a move without 100% accuracy and paralysis and confusion are not any different. These are all things you will see very regularly and those people know what chance they're taking just like anyone who uses evasion knows that at any second they could get hit and killed because it does NOT make you untouchable which some of you seem to forget. But while we're talking about things that require you to build your team around and should be banned i want to mention something for debate that i think is odd that it hasn't been banned yet... Sturdinja. With Endeavor you cannot afford to swap when it is brought in or whatever you swap into will go to 1% hp (except ghost, every team should have one cause they're so useful) so I'm left putting a move like Infestation, Magma Storm, Whirlpool, etc. or some other form indirect dmg on nearly every pokemon just to deal with this annoying thing. It is just as bad as wonderguard if not worse. The only counter for it that is versatile is entry hazards, curse, or Spiky Shield. But a Volt Switch Sturdinja is an indefinite wall that will chip away at you, honestly if it were gone we would see some much more interesting hackmons and that is what this is all about because I don't know about you but I make every single detail of my hackmons count down to the item and fourth move slot its all well thought out and I shouldn't have to worry about adding indirect dmg.

first things first. from now on i shall make sure to use tldrs, since this comment was an eyesore and with my low attention span found it hard to read. also from what crab posted, i'm completely ignoring the rest of the post since idrc about shedinja ban atm.

second, bh is adaptable. but...you cant adapt to luck. sure, that argument doesnt always hold, lets just...play along with your blockade of words. firstly, "prankster and which you think everyone should use one" so your agreeing evasion is a as broken as wonder guard and shadow tag? seeing how both only had one viable counterability and had very minor other counters which are currently common in the metagame? seeing how you only pointed out stuff viable on a prankster user, which up in the higher ladder ( hi, ive maintained a top 10 ranking since the start of bh but i guess since i'm opposing evasion that makes me bad at the tier eh?) prankster isn't ALWAYS a common sight, since due to the ev limit, pranksters MAIN niche (countering sweepers) is a bit harder when they can 2hko on a surprise setup sweep. i mean yeah theres noguard, but when a pokes allready set up, i doubt a noguard poke will be able to stop it.

in all honesty, my undefeated team lost to a evasion user yesterday(note i lost twice to e4 flint, whom is probably the best bh player in the teir, and lost to piccolo mainly due to a crit bolt strike ;~;). my team has lost to 3 people so far out of over 100 games, and guess what. i was WINNING until he used it and i got unlucky, and i mean it was a potential 6-0 in the making. i'm sorry, but if a strategy can turn a otherwise GUARENTEED WIN, into a joke match, then that is something to consider banning. and id really rather not "suck it up and accept that if i dont run a prankster user on every one of my teams this strategy will let TERRIBLE PLAYERS (not that the guy i lost too was terrible)win" then really, whats the point of bh even being competitive.

all spite aside, i apologise and i guess i'm still a bit salty over the evasion loss i got. but come on, if you lose because of luck and not skill, wouldn't YOU be salty. even in the slightest.

tldr: SUPER SALT MODE ACTIVATE

 

[Kingslayer2779]

think the biggest problem with Evasion is simply that people aren't used to it because its not in any other tiers (not saying it should be) overall the people who get mad about things in Balanced Hackmons are the people lower on the ladder who simply don't know enough about pokemon as a whole to make an adequate team with everything in the game at their disposal and those are the kind of people who are quicker to complain and rush to the forums. Actually I can say with assurance that the reason your vote is going so well is because those people are far more likely to run here to vote to get rid of it than everyone else who know what they're doing will take the time to vote no to keep just another part of the game in

Debates gain nothing from personal attacks. You can argue against our opinions but implying the users who argue pro ban are lower ladder players is just absurd.

And the luck based argument is dumb quite frankly you people should know better this game is full of luck you're throwing a coin every time you use a move without 100% accuracy and paralysis and confusion are not any different.

The difference between confusion+para and evasion is massive. para+confuse can be fixed with simple viable options like Poison Heal, Lum Berry, and Aromatherapy. Not to mention the fact that a double boost in evasion basically creates a 50-50 just with one move. The main and best argument against evasion is that it is useful in any players hands regardless of skill. It is too easy too force an situation in which a player can get a +2 evasion. This is uncompetitive and unhealthy for the meta.

I also have a Hackmon that uses evasion that I have used a couple times

This quote shows you misunderstand the point of balanced hackmons and pure hackmons. Pure Hackmons is a meta where you may use any move, ability, or pokemon of your choice. Their are no bans in Pure Hackmons because the meta isn't trying to create a balanced competitive metagame. That is the point of Balanced Hackmons. To create a balanced competitive metagame.

Voting on any teir except for the overly populated teirs like OU or UU is gonna get a much bigger turnout of the protesters rather than the protectors.

Again personal attacks have no place in a debate. The people who organized this vote discussed this at length and understand the purpose of the metagame and have played countless matches. Trust me this vote was not made lightly.

 

[E4 Flint]

AssCatch'm You can see my complete counterarguments against all of those points on the main suspect discussion here and elsewhere in the thread. However, I would like to take a moment to address something about your argument:

However Evasion is not one of these cases all the counters to it are rather simple and versatile meaning having something that counters it is not completely useless it is useful in several other situations mostly due to the fact it is a stat. Stats are a big deal in this tier because anything can buff itself at any time which brings me to the most obvious counter Topsy-Turvy, Heart Swap, Curse, Perish Song, even Haze, these moves are useful in nearly every match and put them on a prankster (which I personally think every team should have one) and you'll laugh at evasion or any other stat based build. Another rather obvious one is there are moves (including Topsy-Turvy) that have - for their accuracy stat this means they always hit evasion or not and this is not the most appealing part of these moves most of them are all around good moves such as Aurasphere. Another obvious counter is No Guard which although does counter evasion has far greater uses as well such as the rather popular Zap cannon, Dynamic-Punch, Sing, Mewtwo-Mega-Y build which can sweep but is also "luck" based. Although it is annoying you can counter it rather easily without having to sacrifice any freedom in your team-building.

Ignoring for a second that it is your opinion and not a fact that these are things are "useful in several other situation" (I personally don't think so, read my comments again in the thread), this argument you have put forward is somewhat at odds with

i want to mention something for debate that i think is odd that it hasn't been banned yet... Sturdinja. With Endeavor you cannot afford to swap when it is brought in or whatever you swap into will go to 1% hp (except ghost, every team should have one cause they're so useful) so I'm left putting a move like Infestation, Magma Storm, Whirlpool, etc. or some other form indirect dmg on nearly every pokemon just to deal with this annoying thing. It is just as bad as wonderguard if not worse. The only counter for it that is versatile is entry hazards, curse, or Spiky Shield. But a Volt Switch Sturdinja is an indefinite wall that will chip away at you, honestly if it were gone we would see some much more interesting hackmons and that is what this is all about because I don't know about you but I make every single detail of my hackmons count down to the item and fourth move slot its all well thought out and I shouldn't have to worry about adding indirect dmg.

where the moves you mention can be argued just as easily as being "useful in other scenarios", along with the infinite other status moves, curse, leech seed, hazards mold breaker etc available to you, along with you countering your own point with the comment about a ghost type. The point you make about "more interesting hackmons" is exactly the point I made about the addition of an evasion clause. If nothing else, if you want to keep evasion, I can't imagine why you specifically want Shedinja banned because, after all:

the people who get mad about things in Balanced Hackmons are the people lower on the ladder who simply don't know enough about pokemon as a whole to make an adequate team with everything in the game at their disposal and those are the kind of people who are quicker to complain and rush to the forums

In any case, I have argued about this in the thread and it would be dumb to repeat all those points here, but I also have compared evasion to shedinja in them. I did not hear any satisfactory counterarguments to what I mentioned there. Once again, check out the suspect thread if you wish to address something.

Please structure your text into paragraphs.

 

[E4 Flint]

will let TERRIBLE PLAYERS (not that the guy i lost too was terrible)win"

lel sure Lcass4919 we know what you're thinking

 

[Lcass4919]

double posting is bad flint. kek

 

[AssCatch'm]

Oh trust me losing because of luck would make anyone mad, I've missed alot of fireblasts and hydro pumps that could have been game makers before and had para activate 3-4 turns in a row but luck is indeed a big part of the game trying to avoid it is something a good skilled player will do by only using moves with 100% accuracy and so on but avoiding the luck factor in your team building does not remove it from the game mechanics and when someone uses evasion or even an accuracy lowering move or para you are reminded that luck component is there I'm sure you've put alot into your team building considering your ranking however you have to take how others build their teams into account as well so fitting a topsy-turvy in there couldnt hurt and it doesnt have to be prankster as long as its faster or can take the hit of whatever is hitting it long enough to get off the topsy turvy but saying that its useless if the pokemon has enough time to set up however you can only set up evasion in one move meaning it doesnt have any sort of attack boost or anything to worry about once theyve used the evasion you know to swap to whatever can handle it. And the top player on the ladder uses a prankster with topsy turvy he would be able to handle evasion without a problem and that wasn't even the main intention to carry that pokemon, he uses aegislash my prankster preference is Heatran both bulky pokemon that can take a hit no problem (except maybe a thousand arrows to the face).