BH Balanced Hackmons

Chatter got nerfed;

- Gale Wings nerf makes Speed stat alot more important.
- ate nerf reduces its power
- Spectral Punch makes boosting harder
- added electric -ate counters flying types
- Tangled Feet doubles evasion if confused
- 2 viable users; M-Ray and M-Pidgeot.

Its possible still broken but nothing near as much as Gen 6.

1) Gale Wings is actually awesome if you build a team around it. With hazard up you are guaranteed to win speed ties against imposters, and you may totally play around priority yes and priority no to fuck with Dazzling. Of course to kill Chansey you have to be at +6 (+3 if it switches in) and be M-Ray (and be deinvested in your own spdef), but look at this.
+6 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Eviolite Rayquaza-Mega: 654-769 (92.8 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
You can give up sky plate to something else if you run 3 IVs on spdef; you'll accomplish the same OHKO.
2) Aerilate doesn't work that way, it changes normal moves to flying and only these moves get the 1.2 boost (1.3 in gen VI). Chatter gets nothing from that ability.
3) Spectral Thief.
4) Agree, but has limited usage being the only decent users Zekrom, Groudon (for imposterproof reasons) and Xurkitree (never seen actually but its Boomburst hurts like hell).
5) Never seen that ability in BH, and it only works when you are confused, which doesn't happen often right now, except no guard dynamic punches (and it ignores missing chances anyway so the ability does nothing in practice now).
6) Let's not forget Yveltal or Lugia as bulky users.

Chatter is now less broken only because confusion has 33% chance of hurting you. I mean it's awesome to see Deoxys-A committing suicide after a shell smash, but it's very annoying because 1/3 times you lose your turn. Not even Shedinja is a check, as it will fall even with lum berry+recycle eventually.
 
If you're unsure about Chatter, here's a detailed, neutral analysis post of Chatter I wrote that TheImmortal linked to in a post that Flint linked to in a post that motherlove showed a screenshot of. Chatter is nerfed a little bit, but it's still a ridiculous move, IMO, since sheer splashability would make it pretty over-centralizing.

...plus if you guys manage to get Chatter unbanned, I'm bringing back my "Smogon Hell" team and making everyone cry blood with the sheer amount of hax it had. You don't know pain until you've been on the receiving end of Serene Grace Chatter/Nuzzle/Air Slash Mega-Ray. And that's just for starters.[/URL]
 
Weird, I remember reading something that would suggest it being 50%.
Most people who were getting high numbers were not testing in a wi-fi battle situation (i.e. doing tests in the battle tree, or in the wild) from what I was noticing.

Chatter got nerfed;

- Gale Wings nerf makes Speed stat alot more important.
- ate nerf reduces its power
- Spectral Punch makes boosting harder
- added electric -ate counters flying types
- Tangled Feet doubles evasion if confused
- 2 viable users; M-Ray and M-Pidgeot.

Its possible still broken but nothing near as much as Gen 6.
1. support makes this very easy to just not worry about
2. A 1.1x reduction doesn't make -ate that garbage enough to unban anything that would have probably been banned because of -ates output. Also, what everyone else said.
3. You don't need to rely on boosts.
4. Galvanize has few obvious users.
5. No one uses that.
6. You don't need it to be stab. It is a move that you can splash onto a pokemon that cannot be blocked by anything mainstream (if you dont use gw), causes confusion, and deals damage with decent coverage (because this is the first thing it needs).
 
Can't you block Chatter with soundproof? Soundproof is at least a little mainstream, though with the anti-priority moves and the nerf making -ate a lot less common, there is a correspondingly lower use of soundproof users. I'm not trying to advocate for it being unbanned. After all, a 33% chance to hax yourself is high enough to be equivalent to a 50% chance to hax yourself, simply because the point of confusion is that your opponent gets a free switch, and 33% is as good enough to give you a free switch as is 50%.
 
Can't you block Chatter with soundproof? Soundproof is at least a little mainstream, though with the anti-priority moves and the nerf making -ate a lot less common, there is a correspondingly lower use of soundproof users. I'm not trying to advocate for it being unbanned. After all, a 33% chance to hax yourself is high enough to be equivalent to a 50% chance to hax yourself, simply because the point of confusion is that your opponent gets a free switch, and 33% is as good enough to give you a free switch as is 50%.
That's assuming your soundproof mon can even deal with the chatter mon in question, for example the most common (and rather awful) soundproof user last gen was Groudon, while some of the best chatter users were Kyogre and Mega Rayquaza, which both easily handle Groudon.
 
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I think that Terrain is really underrated in this meta. There's a couple of solid setters I use and a couple of sweepers that I've used for a few matches.

Zekrom @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Taunt
- Parting Shot
- Core Enforcer

Venusaur-Mega @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Parting Shot
- Skill Swap
- Seed Flare

Deoxys-Speed @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Taunt
- Baton Pass
- Skill Swap

For setters, really just using them as anti-leads with moves to pivot out works fairly well. Zekrom is the best Electric type to use (highest BST, solid defenses) although he could be used interchangably with Mega Ampharos, since Amp has a higher SpA stat and a slow Volt Switch, which is helpful. Venusaur is the best grass type with a bit of bulk to help, and Deoxys is #1 with that tasty base 180 speed.

I also have a list of sweepers I've used and have actually gotten sweeps.

Xurkitree @ Focus Sash
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt
- Thunderbolt
- Tail Glow
- Seed Flare

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Thousand Arrows

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Secret Sword
- Moongeist Beam
- Quiver Dance / Shell Smash

Xurkitree with that much speed and Surge Surger outspeeds Deoxys-S, and basically kills everything with Thunderbolt. 10,000 Volt Thunderbolt is for Dragons that are weak specially (did 98% to Kyurem-W, I'd run the calc but on mobile.)

Kartana can obliterate with Grassy Terrain Banded Wood Hammer or Steelworker Banded Sunsteel Strike, with the other moves for coverage.

Mewtwo is the set-up Simple set, which just becomes even stronger in Psychic Terrain, giving you immunity to priority and a Psystrike that kills literally anything that isn't Dark when boosted.

Can someone tell me if these sets are good, or EV changes, or add some calcs? I love to screw around with Terrain this gen, it's so fun.
 
Relatively new to the meta, so I'm just throwing a set out here that I think is interesting.
  1. Pinsir @ Pinsirite
  2. Ability: Simple
  3. Shiny: Yes
  4. EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  5. Adamant Nature
  6. - Shift Gear
  7. - Extreme Speed
  8. - Sunsteel Strike
  9. - King's Shield/Coverage
Stay normal and set up the mega in to an e-speed or S-Strike. Use King's Shield to help stop other priority from smacking you down.
 
Relatively new to the meta, so I'm just throwing a set out here that I think is interesting.
  1. Pinsir @ Pinsirite
  2. Ability: Simple
  3. Shiny: Yes
  4. EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  5. Adamant Nature
  6. - Shift Gear
  7. - Extreme Speed
  8. - Sunsteel Strike
  9. - King's Shield/Coverage
Stay normal and set up the mega in to an e-speed or S-Strike. Use King's Shield to help stop other priority from smacking you down.
This is all well and good, but Pinsir kind of gets eaten alive by Triage Rayquaza Oblivion Wing. Also, the previous point of priority being nerfed is a valid concern. You also have no way to hit Steel types.
 
This is all well and good, but Pinsir kind of gets eaten alive by Triage Rayquaza Oblivion Wing. Also, the previous point of priority being nerfed is a valid concern. You also have no way to hit Steel types.
Yeah, that's why I put King's shield/coverage. I'm thinking either Thousand Arrows or V-create in that slot. V-create hits so hard, but TA will allow me to hit Skarm and Cele plus Pdon.

Edit: Hit Skarm and Celesteela in heavy rain, that is.
 
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In similar regard to what you did with terrain setters, I did something with weather.
Groudon-Primal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Parting Shot
- Thousand Arrows
The sun setter. Obviously primordial sea users must be removed first. The EVs are to make Groudon-primal as bulky as possible on both sides of the spectrum.
Reshiram @ Draco Plate
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Blue Flare
- Volt Switch
- Moongeist Beam
The sun sweeper. Obviously needs groudon-primal and primordial sea users gone.
 
Not legal? Did non stone Z-Moves get banned finally? Ah well. In that case, maybe replace it with Judgement and replace the item with the Earth Plate to check Chansey a bit better.

CFZs got banned just a few days ago. Post for reference. There's also a vote going on whether to quick ban Comatose + Sleep Talk or take it to suspect, probably after Water Bubble, so that's worth keeping in mind.
 
Apologies for double post, but when digging up a replay for the suspect thread, I came across this gem from early Gen VI, a tournament battle where I used a completely off-the-wall team to secure victory against Ranger Mike (who either changed his name or I'm not sure he plays anymore?). This one just makes me grin from all the reactions to the stuff I'm using and shows that, if you understand the current meta and put a lot of care and time into building a team, you can go very unconventional and be successful with it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-113733510


Disclaimer: this team would probably fall flat on its face in the current meta. I think I still have it somewhere if anyone wants to see the sets.
 
Apologies for double post, but when digging up a replay for the suspect thread, I came across this gem from early Gen VI, a tournament battle where I used a completely off-the-wall team to secure victory against Ranger Mike (who either changed his name or I'm not sure he plays anymore?). This one just makes me grin from all the reactions to the stuff I'm using and shows that, if you understand the current meta and put a lot of care and time into building a team, you can go very unconventional and be successful with it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-113733510


Disclaimer: this team would probably fall flat on its face in the current meta. I think I still have it somewhere if anyone wants to see the sets.
Cool, but why did you run Wide Lens Thunder (110 power, 77% accuracy) over Zap Plate Thunderbolt (108 power, 100% accuracy)? Especially in Trick Room, where Thunder's increased chance of paralysis could be a bad thing.
 
Cool, but why did you run Wide Lens Thunder (110 power, 77% accuracy) over Zap Plate Thunderbolt (108 power, 100% accuracy)? Especially in Trick Room, where Thunder's increased chance of paralysis could be a bad thing.


I dunno, ask me two years ago. I had a reason then that I don't remember now.
 
Sorry if this sounds a bit pessimistic but I feel like BH isn't much fun to play right now. It seems like people are just throwing Shell Smash + Power Trip + Dazzling on something and calling it a "sweeper", and other people are using Innards Out to "counter" it. Because of how you can do this with any physical attacker and put any moves on it, there's no real reliable counter besides Chansey, and even then it's just a 1 for 1. The metagame in general seems to be centralized around these two things, and it's just not very enjoyable for me.
 
Sorry if this sounds a bit pessimistic but I feel like BH isn't much fun to play right now. It seems like people are just throwing Shell Smash + Power Trip + Dazzling on something and calling it a "sweeper", and other people are using Innards Out to "counter" it. Because of how you can do this with any physical attacker and put any moves on it, there's no real reliable counter besides Chansey, and even then it's just a 1 for 1. The metagame in general seems to be centralized around these two things, and it's just not very enjoyable for me.

I wrote something about Innhards out for suspect topic but it fits better here.


Innhards Out

Looking at Innhards out means looking at what it does and which abilities have similar functions.
In my opinion it is a sweep stopping ability. So we are looking at counterplay if an enemy has set up.

1. -ate
Are countered by Psychic Terrain/Queenly Majesty, 10% weaker in power

2. Prankster
Fails on Dark type, Destiny Bond is no longer spamable

3. Unaware
Overwhelmed by Power Trip / Water Bubble, can not wall Sunsteel & Moongeist

4 Sturdinja
Gets 1HKO by Sunsteel & Moongeist, more Hazards

5. Sash Magic Guard (untouched)

6. Imposter (untouched)

7. Innhards Out (Gen 7 addition)


Sash Magic Guard is not allowed to take any pre hit.
Imposter has always been a copy with benefits.
Innards out is the only proactive stop to a sweep.

If Innhards Out would have existed in Gen6 it would be outclassed due better alternatives,
this alone proves the point for me that Innards out is not banworthy.


Yes, BH Gen 7 got too simple in my opinion, i dont play it atm.
I miss those -ate Mind Games with Kings Shield, Destiny Bond predictions,
Unaware stopping mindless set upping and Sturdinja walling perfect coverage sweepers.

Power Trip is so much better than Stored Power, best offensive typing, no immunities, and physical.
It really reminds me of Gen1 Psychic type, it resists only itself (bar Fairy).

Edit: i forgot Fighting typing but there is no good one vs dark type.
(MMX is neutral and Lucario cant take a resisted hit;
+2 252 Atk Greninja-Ash Power Trip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario-Mega: 276-324 (98.2 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO)



You forgot the biggest nerf: confusion has dropped from 50% chance of hitting yourself in Gen 6 to 33% chance in Gen 7, which means there's a pretty good chance that the target will snap out of its confusion before it ever hits itself. Not saying Chatter should be unbanned, just throwing that out there.

I did not know that, i have only found that topic after seeing the link here.
 
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I wrote something about Innhards out for suspect topic but it fits better here.


Innhards Out

Looking at Innhards out means looking at what it does and which abilities have similar functions.
In my opinion it is a sweep stopping ability. So we are looking at counterplay if an enemy has set up.

1. -ate
Are countered by Psychic Terrain/Queenly Majesty, 10% weaker in power

2. Prankster
Fails on Dark type, Destiny Bond is no longer spamable

3. Unaware
Overwhelmed by Power Trip / Water Bubble, can not wall Sunsteel & Moongeist

4 Sturdinja
Gets 1HKO by Sunsteel & Moongeist, more Hazards

5. Sash Magic Guard (untouched)

6. Imposter (untouched)

7. Innhards Out (Gen 7 addition)


Sash Magic Guard is not allowed to take any pre hit.
Imposter has always been a copy with benefits.
Innards out is the only proactive stop to a sweep.

If Innhards Out would have existed in Gen6 it would be outclassed due better alternatives,
this alone proves the point for me that Innards out is not banworthy.


Yes, BH Gen 7 got too simple in my opinion, i dont play it atm.
I miss those -ate Mind Games with Kings Shield, Destiny Bond predictions,
Unaware stopping mindless set upping and Sturdinja walling perfect coverage sweepers.

Power Trip is so much better than Stored Power, best offensive typing, no immunities, and physical.
It really reminds me of Gen1 Psychic type, it resists only itself (bar Fairy).

Edit: i forgot Fighting typing but there is no good one vs dark type.
(MMX is neutral and Lucario cant take a resisted hit;
+2 252 Atk Greninja-Ash Power Trip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario-Mega: 276-324 (98.2 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO)





I did not know that, i have only found that topic after seeing the link here.
If you don't play, how can you talk about it?
 
Wasn't Coma phase banned by a 79% vote? Well, it's not implemented on the server and it really annoys me right now that it's still around.

On an unrelated note, Prankster Assist Primal Groudon is still as annoying as ever. You need something that can stop priority at the very least, but even then the Groudon user can just click Thousand Arrows and kill you anyway, since the move is totally unresisted and has stab. You don't even need prankster if you slap a choice scarf on to it. I've seen teams of 6 groudons with 1500+ ratings spamming prankster assist and landsliding their opponents. It's just wild!
 
Wasn't Coma phase banned by a 79% vote? Well, it's not implemented on the server and it really annoys me right now that it's still around.

On an unrelated note, Prankster Assist Primal Groudon is still as annoying as ever. You need something that can stop priority at the very least, but even then the Groudon user can just click Thousand Arrows and kill you anyway, since the move is totally unresisted and has stab. You don't even need prankster if you slap a choice scarf on to it. I've seen teams of 6 groudons with 1500+ ratings spamming prankster assist and landsliding their opponents. It's just wild!

They are currently busy with the work from the release of bank but the clause is being worked on.
 
Fun set:
mewtwo-megay.png

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Psychium Z
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Baton Pass / Aura Sphere
- Hypnosis
- Tail Glow

Z-Hypnosis for --% accuracy sleep that isn't blocked by Safety Goggles, and it doubles speed. Free Tail Glow while they're asleep. There are a couple threats that need to be put down before this set can wreak havoc, but I've won many games due to a sweep from this powerhouse. Baton Pass and Aura Sphere is preference whether you wanna have MMY sweep or have a teammate sweep. A fun partner for the Baton Pass variant is Water Bubble Primal Kyogre.
 
Fun set:
mewtwo-megay.png

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Psychium Z
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Baton Pass / Aura Sphere
- Hypnosis
- Tail Glow

Z-Hypnosis for --% accuracy sleep that isn't blocked by Safety Goggles, and it doubles speed. Free Tail Glow while they're asleep. There are a couple threats that need to be put down before this set can wreak havoc, but I've won many games due to a sweep from this powerhouse. Baton Pass and Aura Sphere is preference whether you wanna have MMY sweep or have a teammate sweep. A fun partner for the Baton Pass variant is Water Bubble Primal Kyogre.
Z-Hypnosis has the same accuracy as regular Hypnosis, consider yourself lucky that you didn't find this out the hard way :(
 
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