BH Balanced Hackmons

Funbot28

Ayy panini, don't you be a meanie
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This is actually pretty big if this goes through. Playing the Pokemon Online variant of BH (which already has no EV limit), it really changes the pace of the meta and makes it lean towards more bulky offensive playstyles. This is mainly due to defensive pivots now being able to invest in both defenses, creating less risk upon deciding what these mons are able to check. Mixed attackers like Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Diancie, and Mega Rayquaza do appreciate this as well, but from my own experience this change might tip the scale of this offensive orientated meta we have been experimenting at the moment.

Also while we are looking into these things, can we confirm that Arceus actually does not change type? Because I heard through the grape vines that apparently it is able to change without needing Multitype but I could be wrong.

Will edit post when I get the evidence that states the contrary to what he have implemented now, need to find it :p
 
This is actually pretty big if this goes through. Playing the Pokemon Online variant of BH (which already has no EV limit), it really changes the pace of the meta and makes it lean towards more bulky offensive playstyles. This is mainly due to defensive pivots now being able to invest in both defenses, creating less risk upon deciding what these mons are able to check. Mixed attackers like Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Diancie, and Mega Rayquaza do appreciate this as well, but from my own experience this change might tip the scale of this offensive orientated meta we have been experimenting at the moment.
It also makes things like mixed (or just unknown) Shell Smash sets and fast special attackers with psystrike/secret sword much more manageable because you don't have to second guess what moves they'll be carrying or which they'll use. (On a side note makes fast walls, ie. max speed arceus, actually possible so you can use sets that hit with haze/topsy/gastro acid/whatever before many offensive mons can hit without the need for prankster)
Kinda sad that it does remove one element of team building though.
 

ih8ih8sn0w

Koreaboo
is a Researcher Alumnus
If there is a 1536 EV limit, there's no reason not to put full evs into everything, which basically defeats the point of EVs right? I'm not arguing against it, because hackmons is hackmons, but still. lol
Confusion, IO, special attackers, slow pivots, etc. all like low stats fwiw. And strength sap doesn't like low attack stats.
Also while we are looking into these things, can we confirm that Arceus actually does not change type? Because I heard through the grape vines that apparently it is able to change without needing Multitype but I could be wrong.

Will edit post when I get the evidence that states the contrary to what he have implemented now, need to find it :p
Multitype is required for Arceus to change type. The only way it will change type without having Multitype is when you remove/give a plate to an Arceus. This is because the game checks for the form and updates to the form to the correct one (and since abilities are with form data, it resets the ability), but this is all irrelevant in BH since you cannot just give/remove items in a battle. Tl;dr only Multitype Arceus can be something outside of normal type.
 
You guys definitely know 510 EV restriction and no EV restriction make two entirely different metagames. As I personally lead a BH meta without EV restrictions on Pokemon Online (hey no ad :v) I can tell you that few even cares to do smash sash dazzling. And Protean is all the way allowed in gen 7 in this environment and still dominates that meta without EV restrictions.

Just from my view, implementing no EV restrictions on PS actually implies tiering all over again for gen 7: you can still follow to quick ban most of the stuff that was quick-banned, and maybe keep CFZ and Coma-phase banned (which was quick-banned on PO's no EV restriction meta, too, fyi), but Water bubble, APS and even Protean are in a different situation now and it takes some more time to form new opinions from solid experience of the new meta again.

E: In PO BH meta, none of WB and any APS is as popular as protean maybe due to a lack of player base, in conjunction to the Arceus Form glitch that Arceus forms without Multitype is allowed there. In theory, for a meta without 510 EV restriction, the direct power house like Spec Ray, Spec Porge, Band Pdon and Protean MMY(if allowed) would dominate instead of fragile set up sweepers since they are usually more rewarding to run. It should be noted that Imposter Chansey walls way more better in a no EV restriction bulky offense metagame since even Spec Water Spout WB Porge needs 4HKO eviolite Imposter Chansey. Also, fast Arceus with Gastro Acid, however, stops a lot of things from being overpowered on PO, but maybe not PS since no Arceus Form glitch.
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What happens when a plate-less Arceus without the ability Multitype obtains a plate during battle (by trick/switcheroo)?
You simply get a plate, and if you happen to bring Judgment as a move your Judgment will change type accordingly, but the type of you arceus won't change. (If it is Multitype and has plate you can't trick in the first place.)
Well I actually cannot recall if arceus has a plate-trick immunity this generation: it could be coded into multitype, but also possibly hard coded to Arceus so I might be wrong, needs in game testing.
 
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Yah I don't really see water Bubble getting any worse, it was already able to 2HKO fully invested resists through an assault vest. And if anything it only appreciates the meta potentially getting slower / less offence oriented as it will be able to come in on more things and will be easier to support (say with a sub or rain).

I mean when you can do damage like that: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Gyarados-Mega: 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, it doesn't really matter how much defence or attack EVs the recipient has, it dies anyway.
 
I actually am not a big fan of this change. Eving mons was a big part of the strategy behind the metagame, ensuring you could live stuff or outspeed stuff, and now a lot of that's gone. I don't know what to do now. I mean it's grat to know that I can always be guaranteed to outspeed a plakia with my diancie if we both run a +spe nature, but I feel like a lot of the strategy and surprise value is now gone..
 
I actually am not a big fan of this change. Eving mons was a big part of the strategy behind the metagame, ensuring you could live stuff or outspeed stuff, and now a lot of that's gone. I don't know what to do now. I mean it's grat to know that I can always be guaranteed to outspeed a plakia with my diancie if we both run a +spe nature, but I feel like a lot of the strategy and surprise value is now gone..
I feel you dude, but it's a game mechanic and not a decision from the council. It won't revert back to EV limit at least until a new game comes out so there's not really any worth complaining about it so the best you could do is suck it up (no offence) and try to get the most of it.

For now starting discussion on what mons or archetype benefit from this change would be a good way to start. The first things I'm probably going to try out are taunt stallbreakers like arceus or regigigas as they hugely benefit from the added bulk and can actually make good use of their superior speed tiers. Something like:


Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Avalanche
- Swords Dance
- Taunt

The idea isn't new but this is quite horrible to fact for fat teams, taunt is a huge problem for most passive mons and avalanche allows it to avoid core enforcer from gira and zyggy, facade does ridiculous damage to anything, sd boosts faster the shift gear which is valuable. Jolly to make sure you outspeed primals and other base 90 / 95. Pair it with a magic bounce steel type and maybe a magnet pull mon to kill opposing steel types.


Arceus @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Moongeist Beam
- Tail Glow
- Taunt

Similar principal but maybe even better. 120 speed jolly means you outspeed specs rayquaza and anything beneath, Boomburst + Moongeist for powerful coverage and killing sheddy, tail glow because it boosts absurdly fast and taunt to piss off any defensive mon or unaware that try to wall you. Same partners as above.

Anyway I wanted to try that before but I feel like they probably got a lot better now so I can't wait to test them. If anyone else has experience or sets they want to share then pls get this discussion started because we all have quite bit of building to do.

EDIT:
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Also in general improofing will be a little difficult bc now all evs that were put will be abused by eviolite as well.

Also motherlove 's sets are now not self-improofable but it needs a seperate mon.

Overall this change, at least for me, is hard to adapt into.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
also just as u new guys complain about no ev limit restrictions we complained about ev limit restriction in the first place just the cycle of things lol. Just get used to it guys nothing to worry about ,just adapt to da new meta.
I know, i started bh in late gen6 and i still heard ev restrictions did not exist previous to that.

While this is new and strange experience to me, it also sounds fun too, one of the reasons are because i think Diancie will be significantly bulkier.

Also we have to decide whether to give 252evs on supports with U-turn or not because Innards Out Chansey will be more prominent.
 
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This makes me happy. I was a staunch supporter for 510 limit back when it came around because I thought it might increase diversity and make things interesting. Instead things became less diverse because the best sweepers got seriously buffed by the limit and you were forced to run sets dedicated to checking offensive sets rather than being able to utilize more general options. That and "mindless" strategies became way, way more effective and, if you couldn't answer them super efficiently, you stood a high chance of losing. It wouldn't have been so bad if we at least got enough defensive options with ORAS and Gen VII to keep pace with offensive, but we didn't. Pre-510 X/Y BH was probably the most balanced state the meta had been in, IMO.

So, hopefully, given a little time, we'll get diversity back as you'll have more general options to deal with stuff. "Oh, I don't need Registeel for Triage M-Ray, my AV Regen Kyo-P tanks it fine enough."


On EVing, yeah, you lose a little bit of creativity there, but not a lot. Honestly, most sets are just 252 X / 252 Y / 4 Z anyway. Besides, EVing isn't entirely gone. You still have tweaking speed to out-speed/slow things but not other things. Or adjusting defenses for certain purposes. Example of the first, I had a Aerodactyl-M who had its defensive and speed EVs tweaked for Imposters of it always get outsped and OHKOed by Manectric-M on my team while still keeping it as fast and bulky as possible.
 
I have an experimental and slightly gimmicky move set for minior (core form). (Don't ask why it's blue, my favorite color is blue).:

Minior-Blue @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Sturdy
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Ascent
- Diamond Storm
- Sunsteel Strike

As you have probably deciphered, the weakness policy and sturdy combination are to boost its stats not unlike unburden, sitrus berry, belly drum. Dragon ascent and diamond storm are its main STAB moves allowing it to OHKO rayquaza and other threats. Sunsteel strike is for ice coverage and can kill sturdy shedinja and imposter chansey. Stealth rock can whittle away at switching in pokemon but baneful bunker could be used to fish for poisoning since sunsteel strike covers shedinja already.

Since parental bond isn't an overpowered version of adaptability anymore, maybe parental bond could be allowed again.
 
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Since parental bond isn't an overpowered version of adaptability anymore, maybe parental bond could be allowed again.
This is actually discussed before, and since you just started, you may have missed some way of using it that actually makes it broken.
Even the damage boost of parental bond is nerfed, there is no point to unban it since:
Not only the old strategy of Seismic Shade (Seismic Toss/Night Shade/Super Fang) or automatic serene grace persists, Parental Bond with Nature's Madness does 75% to anything, and unlike Seismic Shade Fang, the fairy type move has no immunity. The Seismic Shade Fang was one of the major reason that Parental Bond got banned last gen, and this strategy only becomes more effective, so we should not unban it.
 
Can we get rid of hiding the sprite of an arceus type? Also can someone explain to me how a mega gengars shadow ball was able to hit my normal type?
 
Can we get rid of hiding the sprite of an arceus type? Also can someone explain to me how a mega gengars shadow ball was able to hit my normal type?
The Gengar was probably Normalize. The sprite thing is based on a cartridge mechanic and will not change unless it's discoverer to not happen on the cartridge.
 
I feel like giratina now being an incredibly bulky mixed wall will help it to gain prominence again, recovery some of the popularity it recently lost to it's younger, fatter brother: big zig. The main things in its favour are no 4× weaknesses which means with full EVs it will be very difficult to kill unboosted even with SE coverage, whereas Zygod suffers to ice. Another advantage it has is the ghost typing which gives it immunity to the new and improved PH gigas' Facade allowing it to switch in much more safely, as well as being a spin blocker and immune to (non-scrappy) endeavours and final gambits. STAB spectral thief and ghost curse are also great additions to its overall utility.

Here's a set, by no means created by me:

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Slack Off / whatever recovery you prefer
- Spectral Thief
- Defog

It seems a good answer to a lot of setup, with core enforcer punishing all but the most avalanchey PH users and generally breaking anything that switches in, whilst also being a really reliable STAB move. Defog because this thing often gets lots of chances to switch in and it doesn't care about sticky web or toxic spikes and the poison heal shrugs off the damage from rocks but really this monster of a wall can run basically any support move your team requires or pivoting or phasing moves.
 
Announcement: The EV Limit has been removed from [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-542424887 in which my opponent and I have set maxed EV's (can be verified with calcs)[/proof]
Thank you very much. This is honestly by far the best thing to have ever happened to Pokémon Showdown!'s version of Balanced Hackmons between August 2014 and now. It is truly an uplifting feeling... to witness that which was once the best metagame ever on Pokémon Showdown! rising once again after having descended to and remained in a state of near-unplayability for more than two years. May this tier... that which was once the face of all Other Metagames... bathe again in its former glory!

 
I feel like giratina now being an incredibly bulky mixed wall will help it to gain prominence again, recovery some of the popularity it recently lost to it's younger, fatter brother: big zig. The main things in its favour are no 4× weaknesses which means with full EVs it will be very difficult to kill unboosted even with SE coverage, whereas Zygod suffers to ice. Another advantage it has is the ghost typing which gives it immunity to the new and improved PH gigas' Facade allowing it to switch in much more safely, as well as being a spin blocker and immune to (non-scrappy) endeavours and final gambits. STAB spectral thief and ghost curse are also great additions to its overall utility.

Here's a set, by no means created by me:

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Slack Off / whatever recovery you prefer
- Spectral Thief
- Defog

It seems a good answer to a lot of setup, with core enforcer punishing all but the most avalanchey PH users and generally breaking anything that switches in, whilst also being a really reliable STAB move. Defog because this thing often gets lots of chances to switch in and it doesn't care about sticky web or toxic spikes and the poison heal shrugs off the damage from rocks but really this monster of a wall can run basically any support move your team requires or pivoting or phasing moves.
It's also immune to gengar's trapping which, while already very good, might just potentially see a small rise in usage if bulky team become more prevalent.
 
I've been playing the Gen7 BH meta since it started and with all these powerful and dangerous abilities like Water Bubble, Psychic Surge, Dazzling/QM, Innards Out, etc... and with the rise of Primals, and now with the 252-all-stat-EV allowed, I found I really miss Protean. I mean, each Protean user has a different counter, that's true, but with the rise of Innards Out (Protean Psystrike and Secret Sword users need to be careful), great Assault Vest users like Gyarados-Mega, Registeel, Zygarde Complete, etc...and all the new stuff introduced in the gen 7 people can find new ways to face Protean.

Just remember that Protean wasn't a problem at all back in XY pre-EV limit and the reason it became so overpowered was because the EV limit rule decreasing the bulk that having all 252 EV stat could provide to face an ability like that. In Pokémon Online, for instance, they kept the 252-all-stat-EV for all this time and Protean was never a problem, since it is still usable there.

Tbh, i consider more dangerous and ban-worthy some gen 7 abilities like Dazzling/QM or Psychic Surge than Protean by itself. I think that actually the conditions are met to unban Protean and see what kind of impact it can have in the actual 252-EV meta.

Thanks for reading :)
 

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