Baton Pass in SM OU

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It's been like from XY times that I'm asking for a teambuilder ban of BP+any move/item/ability that can boost stats, but finally I figured that an ultra-specific complex ban would not be worth.
I mean, what would stop people from using like Z-Happy Hour + Baton Pass Smeargle (just an example) or whatever and bpass to necrozma/random recipient? Happy Hour isn't a boosting move by itself so it wouldnt be considered in a hypotetical complex ban, and I find too harsh banning Z-Happy Hour while every non-bpass use of it is definitely not broken, so it would just extend this eternal sort of weird fight against banning Baton Pass which is just a waste of time and effort. Just ban Baton Pass and end this issue.

EDIT: I noticed that Z-Happy Hour can't be bpassed with the clause but the issue won't be solved if we put any other +3 Z-Move with Necrozma or any other mon that just needs some boost pass to be effective, so I'm still with a blanket Baton Pass ban

example: many say that just speedpass is broken but if I bp +4/+6 defense to Rock Polish Necrozma what would have actually changed from current situation where you just speedpass to Iron Defense Necrozma
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Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
Punchshroom your complexity argument falls flat on one major facet, that this complexity only exists when using a Z-Crystal on a Baton Pass user. All the "normal" stat boosts are easy to keep track, there's no way "non getting stat boosts" is any more complex than current BP clause, making that a non argument. Meaning the only time teambuilding would become an issue is if you wanted your Drypass user to also be a Z-Move user. In pretty much any case where a Pokemon would want both BP and a Z-Crystal, most of those Pokemon would want to be using stat boosts anyways. It's pretty slim pickings honestly- you're maybe looking at stuff like Decidueye, Togekiss, and Celebi.

Really, the strategy of having a Z-move user that has Baton Pass is too crushed by removal of statpass for it to even be a consideration for complexity. It's like dicussing the viability of Donphan if we werre talking about the status of hazards in SMOU, it's irrelivant and shouldn't impact tierng decisions.

Removing our current clauses and replacing them with stat boost + baton pass ban would massively simplify the BP clause overall, while fixing issues caused by Baton Pass, without needlessly hurting Pokemon like Shedinja that require BP to be viable in the SMOU metagame.

starry blanket

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from all the stuff i've always read about tiering on smogon, one of the main things i've taken away is that complex clauses and bans are meant to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. i back when the original clauses were implemented there were more things to consider: there were more pokemon that utilized drypassing, and passing only 1 stat or w/e was trying to be preserved. we now know that passing stat boosts is a problem (hence this thread), and there are like 3 pokemon that drypass in SM OU, and they aren't really viable at all lol. yes, removing drypassing does remove a bit of creativity or w/e, and yes, it does remove some utility these not-so-viable pokemon had, but i see this collateral as totally justifiable considering: a.) how uncommon and not-so-viable these pokemon are and b.) how having simple bans and clauses is important.

simply put, it isn't necessary to preserve these things. it is necessary to get rid of the problem baton pass presents in the current meta. a complex workaround isn't necessary because these things aren't relevant enough to be worth a complex clause. if an actually decently viable pokemon (like B ranks or above imo) would be affected by this, then yes, i'd say do another clause, but we're talking about shedinja for crying out loud lmfao.

this discussion, like all PR thread discussions, is going to go nowhere because someone decided to bring up a very minor thing that isn't even worth considering and everyone likes to get their 2 cents in (hypocritical ik) and they might as well do it on the thing that everyone is currently talking about.

i do also think this clause should be applied to ORAS for the sake of being both simple and uniform. the effect is the same there: there are very very few pokemon that actually drypass, and even though bpass isn't much of a problem in ORAS, it's still annoying for the same fundamental reasons brought up here.


Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
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As far as I can tell, the Baton Pass Clause never should have happened and you better believe we shouldn't be trying to tweak it for a 4th time just to keep it around. In my experience, Smogon tries to keep its tiering decisions and banlist as simple as possible. Collateral damage is rarely, if ever, taken into account and if it is considered, it's only because the collateral damage is very relevant to the metagame in question. The only collateral damage that I've seen brought up in this entire thread is Shedinja and Pyukumuku. Are we really going to sacrifice one of Smogon's most basic principles (tiering simplicity) just so Shedinja and Pyukumuku can hang on to their relevance by a thread? Even with Baton Pass, whether they have any relevance at all is questionable.

It's ridiculous that this is still being argued. The fewer clauses we have, the better. Ban Baton Pass and be done with it.


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UltiMario Well yeah, StatPass is directly intended to be less complex than the current BP clauses in the first place, but I'm not talking about any comparisons with the current clauses; I'm more speaking on the notion of "looking at every means of stat boosting in combination with Baton Pass" being more complex than simply "looking at Baton Pass itself".

Even accounting for the current BP clauses, turns out that it's not even properly placed into effect: In that game, I was able to use Electric Seed to pass Defense and Speed, bypassing the current BP clause right off the bat and outright disproving your argument that these things are "easy to keep track of". Considering this oversight managed to go through, do you think StatPass will be able to comfortably catch every single possible nuance of stat-boosting + passing? Even if the clause is done right this time around, there's still the issue of teambuilder restriction regarding these complex bans (like the Z-evasion boosting thing) that I would like to avoid altogether; the only way I would compromise on this is if this restriction is translated into move selection during battle instead of pre-battle, and that still seems extremely complex due to very specific instructions that have to be applied to each possible stat-boosting + passing scenario which involve: a couple of items (forgot Adrenaline Orb; yeah forgetting certain ways to bypass the clause is certainly plausible considering my replay already proved the current BP clause can essentially be worked around due to an oversight or two), a number of abilities, over 130 moves with Z-effects, and every stat boosting move. All of these to account for, for the sake of keeping DryPass?

There's little reason to have to look at what is essentially 'everything related to Baton Pass except Baton Pass itself' when we could just go right for the core issue. I'm already tired from listing nearly every single way (I'm definitely not confident I've covered all of them myself) to boost stats, and damn if anyone else should if they want to conform to StatPass clause. The Baton Pass clauses are stupid in the first place anyway and my replay only exemplifies that: that oversight happened because they're simply too much to account for when there is no need to, and StatPass is only "making it simpler" in pretense but is honestly just compounding this issue.
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Californium is PoMMan now.
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Worth emphasising, the entire OU council are all in complete agreement that the move itself should be banned. In any other situation, that would have already happened, and talk of preserving DryPass is, for me, arbitrary as all hell. We dont do it for Pokemon, we should not do it, and aside from BP itself, have not done it for moves. All the other things that were claused (DrizzleSwim, Sand Veil, SleepPerishTrapping) were all either massive parts of the metagame that individually did not deserve to be banned (all Swift Swim users, Gliscor) or were uncompetitive af (Sand Veil and SleepPerishTrapping). Just because we can preserve the tiny, irrelevant (in SM) side effect of Baton Pass, does not mean we should, especially when there are as many different ways of boosting stats as there are for people to keep track of.


Out of Obscurity
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For any arguments sake: Here's the entire list of things you wouldn't be able to use with Baton Pass if statpassing was banned.

Move Stat
Bulk Up Attack ↑
Hone Claws Attack ↑
Howl Attack ↑
Laser Focus Attack ↑
Leer Attack ↑
Meditate Attack ↑
Odor Sleuth Attack ↑
Power Trick Attack ↑
Rototiller Attack ↑
Screech Attack ↑
Sharpen Attack ↑
Tail Whip Attack ↑
Taunt Attack ↑
Topsy-Turvy Attack ↑
Will-O-Wisp Attack ↑
Work Up Attack ↑
Mirror Move Attack ↑↑
Splash Attack ↑↑↑
Aqua Ring Defense ↑
Baby-Doll Eyes Defense ↑
Baneful Bunker Defense ↑
Block Defense ↑
Charm Defense ↑
Defend Order Defense ↑
Fairy Lock Defense ↑
Feather Dance Defense ↑
Flower Shield Defense ↑
Grassy Terrain Defense ↑
Growl Defense ↑
Harden Defense ↑
Mat Block Defense ↑
Noble Roar Defense ↑
Pain Split Defense ↑
Play Nice Defense ↑
Poison Gas Defense ↑
Poison Powder Defense ↑
Quick Guard Defense ↑
Reflect Defense ↑
Roar Defense ↑
Spider Web Defense ↑
Spikes Defense ↑
Spiky Shield Defense ↑
Stealth Rock Defense ↑
Strength Sap Defense ↑
Tearful Look Defense ↑
Tickle Defense ↑
Torment Defense ↑
Toxic Defense ↑
Toxic Spikes Defense ↑
Venom Drench Defense ↑
Wide Guard Defense ↑
Withdraw Defense ↑
Confuse Ray Special Attack ↑
Electrify Special Attack ↑
Embargo Special Attack ↑
Fake Tears Special Attack ↑
Gear Up Special Attack ↑
Gravity Special Attack ↑
Growth Special Attack ↑
Instruct Special Attack ↑
Ion Deluge Special Attack ↑
Metal Sound Special Attack ↑
Mind Reader Special Attack ↑
Miracle Eye Special Attack ↑
Nightmare Special Attack ↑
Psychic Terrain Special Attack ↑
Reflect Type Special Attack ↑
Simple Beam Special Attack ↑
Soak Special Attack ↑
Sweet Kiss Special Attack ↑
Teeter Dance Special Attack ↑
Telekinesis Special Attack ↑
Heal Block Special Attack ↑↑
Psycho Shift Special Attack ↑↑
Charge Special Defense ↑
Confide Special Defense ↑
Cosmic Power Special Defense ↑
Crafty Shield Special Defense ↑
Eerie Impulse Special Defense ↑
Entrainment Special Defense ↑
Flatter Special Defense ↑
Glare Special Defense ↑
Ingrain Special Defense ↑
Light Screen Special Defense ↑
Magic Room Special Defense ↑
Magnetic Flux Special Defense ↑
Mean Look Special Defense ↑
Misty Terrain Special Defense ↑
Mud Sport Special Defense ↑
Spotlight Special Defense ↑
Stun Spore Special Defense ↑
Thunder Wave Special Defense ↑
Water Sport Special Defense ↑
Whirlwind Special Defense ↑
Wish Special Defense ↑
Wonder Room Special Defense ↑
Aromatic Mist Special Defense ↑↑
Captivate Special Defense ↑↑
Imprison Special Defense ↑↑
Magic Coat Special Defense ↑↑
Powder Special Defense ↑↑
After You Speed ↑
Aurora Veil Speed ↑
Electric Terrain Speed ↑
Encore Speed ↑
Gastro Acid Speed ↑
Grass Whistle Speed ↑
Guard Split Speed ↑
Guard Swap Speed ↑
Hail Speed ↑
Hypnosis Speed ↑
Lock-On Speed ↑
Lovely Kiss Speed ↑
Power Split Speed ↑
Power Swap Speed ↑
Quash Speed ↑
Rain Dance Speed ↑
Role Play Speed ↑
Safeguard Speed ↑
Sandstorm Speed ↑
Scary Face Speed ↑
Sing Speed ↑
Skill Swap Speed ↑
Sleep Powder Speed ↑
Speed Swap Speed ↑
Sticky Web Speed ↑
String Shot Speed ↑
Sunny Day Speed ↑
Supersonic Speed ↑
Toxic Thread Speed ↑
Worry Seed Speed ↑
Yawn Speed ↑
Ally Switch Speed ↑↑
Bestow Speed ↑↑
Me First Speed ↑↑
Recycle Speed ↑↑
Snatch Speed ↑↑
Switcheroo Speed ↑↑
Trick Speed ↑↑
Copycat Accuracy ↑
Defense Curl Accuracy ↑
Defog Accuracy ↑
Focus Energy Accuracy ↑
Mimic Accuracy ↑
Sweet Scent Accuracy ↑
Trick Room Accuracy ↑
Camouflage Evasiveness ↑
Detect Evasiveness ↑
Flash Evasiveness ↑
Kinesis Evasiveness ↑
Lucky Chant Evasiveness ↑
Magnet Rise Evasiveness ↑
Sand Attack Evasiveness ↑
Smokescreen Evasiveness ↑
Celebrate All stats ↑
Conversion All stats ↑
Forest’s Curse All stats ↑
Geomancy All stats ↑
Happy Hour All stats ↑
Hold Hands All stats ↑
Purify All stats ↑
Sketch All stats ↑
Trick-or-Treat All stats ↑
Extreme Evoboost All stats ↑
Acupressure Boosts critical-hit ratio
Foresight Boosts critical-hit ratio
Heart Swap Boosts critical-hit ratio
Sleep Talk Boosts critical-hit ratio
Tailwind Boosts critical-hit ratio

After You
Ally Switch
Aqua Ring
Aromatic Mist
Aurora Veil
Baby-Doll Eyes
Baneful Bunker
Bulk Up
Confuse Ray
Cosmic Power
Crafty Shield
Defend Order
Defense Curl
Eerie Impulse
Electric Terrain
Extreme Evoboost
Fairy Lock
Fake Tears
Feather Dance
Flower Shield
Focus Energy
Forest’s Curse
Gastro Acid
Gear Up
Grass Whistle
Grassy Terrain
Guard Split
Guard Swap
Happy Hour
Heal Block
Heart Swap
Hold Hands
Hone Claws
Ion Deluge
Laser Focus
Light Screen
Lovely Kiss
Lucky Chant
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Magnet Rise
Magnetic Flux
Mat Block
Me First
Mean Look
Metal Sound
Mind Reader
Miracle Eye
Mirror Move
Misty Terrain
Mud Sport
Noble Roar
Odor Sleuth
Pain Split
Play Nice
Poison Gas
Poison Powder
Power Split
Power Swap
Power Trick
Psychic Terrain
Psycho Shift
Quick Guard
Rain Dance
Reflect Type
Role Play
Sand Attack
Scary Face
Simple Beam
Skill Swap
Sleep Powder
Sleep Talk
Speed Swap
Spider Web
Spiky Shield
Stealth Rock
Sticky Web
Strength Sap
String Shot
Stun Spore
Sunny Day
Sweet Kiss
Sweet Scent
Tail Whip
Tearful Look
Teeter Dance
Thunder Wave
Toxic Spikes
Toxic Thread
Trick Room
Venom Drench
Water Sport
Wide Guard
Wonder Room
Work Up
Worry Seed

Gear Up
Spectral Thief
Ancient Power
Charge Beam
Diamond Storm
Fell Stinger
Fiery Dance
Flame Charge
Metal Claw
Meteor Mash
Ominous Wind
Power-Up Punch
Silver Wind
Steel Wing

Belly Drum
Flower Shield
Shell Smash
Skill Swap
Role Play
Psych Up
Heart Swap
Focus Energy

Acid Armor
Aromatic Mist
Bulk Up
Calm Mind
Cosmic Power
Cotton Guard
Defend Order
Defense Curl
Double Team
Dragon Dance
Hone Claws
Iron Defense
Magnetic Flux
Nasty Plot
Noble Roar
Quiver Dance
Rock Polish
Shift Gear
Skull Bash
Swords Dance
Tail Glow
Work Up

Apicot Berry
Kee Berry
Ganlon Berry
Lansat Berry
Liechi Berry
Maranga Berry
Petaya Berry
Salac Berry
Starf Berry
Weakness Policy
Adrenaline Orb
Absorb Bulb
Cell Battery
Electric Seed
Grassy Seed
Misty Seed
Psychic Seed
Luminous Moss

Anger Point
Beast Boost
Lightning Rod
Motor Drive
Sap Sipper
Speed Boost
Storm Drain
Water Compaction

Resources like Veekun made this list pretty easy to compile, I spent more time formatting it than I did looking for the information. The only way to statpass with this list should be if your opponent boosts stats for you (Flatter, TG Heart Swap Manaphy, etc).

I compiled this so people can see what the whole list of baton pass + this bans would look like. No more theory crafting about how many interactions we need to cover or how realistic it is or not. Of course, I'm only human, but I'm pretty sure I nailed everything, at least assuming the Move/Item/Ability resources I used were entirely comprehensive. I won't personally make an argument over if this is "too much" or whatever, but for those worried about having to compile the actual comprehensive list being the barrier to stat + pass, I've pretty much erased that. Enjoy.
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Shedinja would be fucked anyway man, no swords dance/hone claws and not even will-o-wisp :v
Any sr/spikes/taunt/wish user as well

I mean I would be ok as long as bp cant pass stats anymore but is this complex ban worth of the effort and is it worth to be a further exception from standard smogon policy? Exactly for preserving what actual useful mon/strategy? Subpass?
People here have already echoed most of my thoughts on the matter, but something that hasn't especially been mentioned is why Smogon prefers a simple banlist over a complex one. There are a few reasons, but I think one of the most important is to justify the system for players trying to get into the community. A simple banlist is easier to comprehend and appears more justified and logical. Outsiders have a lot of skepticism for Smogon's banning system, often because of ignorance (ex: Why is Articuno legal in every tier if its a legendary? or Why is Blaziken banned if it's just a starter Pokemon that any player can use, just like Swampert and Sceptile?) but that criticism seems more valid when people can point out other, clearer inconsistencies in banning policy. If the OU council went insane for a day and banned something stupid like Toxic + Protect one one Pokemon, but Toxic + Spiky Shield is okay, then quickbanning Landorus-I at the start of the generation would begin to look illogical and hasty just by association. Every item on a banlist needs to be warranted and comprehensive for the institution of a banlist itself to hold any water.

Which brings me to this: if a new player appears in the OU lobby and asks the following three questions, how do you answer them?

Why is Double Team banned but Bright Powder is legal?
Why is Blaziken banned instead of Speed Boost + Blaziken?
Why is Baton Pass legal but you can't pass boosts with it?

Anyone familiar with Smogon's policies can rattle off three answers pretty quickly. The problem is no combination of three answers paints a consistent picture about why we ban things. If you say Bright Powder is legal because it isn't as effective as Evasion moves despite sharing a similar base, why is Blaze Blaziken considered a threat just because it shares a similar base to Speed Boost Blaziken? Well, obviously that's because we can't make exceptions just to preserve niche aspects of the game just because that specific combination isn't broken, but then here we are at Baton Pass again. The biggest difference between these three questions is that they deal with an item, a Pokemon, and a move--but why do we assess our standards for banning based on that? If Baton Pass were a Pokemon (don't think about that too hard) it would have been banned ages ago.

As a thought experiment for people asking for a stat boost + Baton Pass ban rather than a wholesale ban on the move, think about why in particular dry pass is worth "preserving." For instance, what if Baton Pass's non stat-pass effect was even more niche than dry pass?

Baton Pass' : Switches out user and retains any boosts/some special effects for the next Pokemon. If the user has none of these effects, they do not switch out, but the PP of every move they have is restored by 1.

Is Baton Pass' worth preserving in this case? Does the fact that the alternate effect is basically useless make you feel more or less comfortable about banning the whole move? Would you have proposed a specific clause that only bans stat-pass if all you were "preserving" was a niche PP restoration mechanic? Now, let's flip the switch--what if Baton Pass' non stat-pass effect was less niche than dry pass?

Baton Pass'' : Switches out user and retains any boosts/some special effects for the next Pokemon. If the user has none of these effects, they do not switch out, but the opposing Pokemon takes 60% of their current HP in damage.

Is Baton Pass'' worth preserving in this case? Does the fact that the alternate effect is really good make you feel more or less comfortable about banning the whole move? Would you have proposed a specific clause that only bans stat-pass if it preserves a mechanic that may meta-shaping, albeit probably not bannable on its own merits?

Finally, and I know this will ruffle some feathers, I really think OU needs to fall in line with UU in cases like this. Perceived hierarchy of tier importance aside, having different tiers with different bans should follow some sort of logic, like Victini being too strong in the UU meta but really pretty bad in the OU meta, landing it in BL. Let's jump back to that new user in the lobby, and they ask this question:

Why is Baton Pass banned in UU but not OU?

Because, as I see it Baton Pass isn't more powerful in UU than OU. If we're using the "preservation" argument, then popular dry passers are more widely used in UU than OU (Pyukumuku and Shedinja are both legal there, but UU also has more Celebi, Syvelon, Espeon, etc.) and thus there is simply less to be preserved. The only real answer to that question is "OU and UU have different councils with different philosophies," but even that really isn't a reasonable claim at this point, because the start of this thread was the announcement that the OU council is unanimous in wanting to ban the move, straight up. Unless you're a diehard Pyukumuku fanboy (shoutout to itzGator) then I see no argument to try and hold together this broken mechanic.

The buck stops here. Or should I say, the baton. Ban the move already.



Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
Shedinja would be fucked anyway man, no swords dance/hone claws and not even will-o-wisp :v
Any sr/spikes/taunt/wish user as well

I mean I would be ok as long as bp cant pass stats anymore but is this complex ban worth of the effort and is it worth to be a further exception from standard smogon policy? Exactly for preserving what actual useful mon/strategy? Subpass?
Do note those moves would only be banned with Baton Pass if the user had a Z-Crystal matching the type of those moves. So no, you couldn't use Firium Z WoW Baton Pass Shedinja, but you could use Focus Sash WoW Baton Pass Shedinja. We already implement this type of ban for Evasion Clause, allowing Pokemon to use moves with a +evasion Z-Move effect as long as they don't have a Z-Crystal of a matching type to actually use the Z-Move with.


Banned deucer.
I'm not gonna bother reading some of the arguments in this thread so if I'm saying anything repeated, I apologies. I did not mean to "steal your shit" as I voice my opinion on this subject.

I am in 100% full support of neutering Baton Pass, but I do not think it is fair to completely remove it from the tier as well as future tiers. The main catalysis for this discussion was obviously the use of stat passing, being Scolipede + friends, Mew + Friends, etc. Over the course of duration of this topic, we have always tried changing the BP clause to consistently limit the use of "brokenness" of Baton Pass. This has obviously not worked so well, but the main reason of why we kept changing the clause is because, as I'm sure everyone knows, using the move Baton Pass alone is not deemed broken and in the past we wanted to keep this strategy alive. Just using Baton Pass by itself (termed "drypassing") is a very effective strategy in terms of gaining momentum vs the opponent. It is literally U-turn/Volt Switch without dealing damage, yet you don't see anyone having complaints with either of these moves. Using Baton Pass like this to make a prediction IS competitive and not broken. Shedinja is a great example of this to lure in TTar/Heatran to BP on the switch and then you can trap it with Dugtrio to remove Shedinjas checks. You can also implement this strategy on any pokemon that can learn BP and you are allowed to use this move for creative sets in terms of implementing your strategy of gaining momentum through gameplay. One example of this kind of creativity can be Baton Pass Mega Medicham, who can effectively lure in fat psychic types and Mega Sableye. You can use Baton Pass to switch out versus these and go into something that takes advantage of their switch, like Specs Ash Greninja, Banded Bulu, etc. This kind of strategy should be encouraged. This is what keeps the game competitive, which is what smogon is all about.

During my past discussions with people outside of this thread, I feel like just straight up banning the move is a lazy way of dealing with Baton Pass. I have a proposal for this situation as I'm sure some people have already mentioned (like I said I'm not gonna read arguments here), to implement the clause of just banning stat passing. This would remove the access of speed passing from Scolipede, Fat passing from mew (Barrier/Amnesia), etc. while keeping the move for momentum gaining advantages during gameplay. There has been arguments about making an implementation that having a stat boosting move, item, or ability with Baton Pass is just going to make the clause more "complex." I understand that people really just want to remove the move completely to avoid "complexity," but I feel like adding one final change to the clause is the best way to approach this. The argument of complexity from my standpoint is just everyone whining and not wanting to deal with the situation rather than approach it in a different perspective. I think people are forgetting that Zarel or whoever is in charge of the teambuilder can implement a rule change with moves, items, and abilities that are paired with Baton Pass to make the tier stay consistent with the updated clause I have mentioned earlier. Preferred ruling would be this: if you receive a stat boost via move, item, or ability and the move Baton Pass is presented within your set after this boost, the move Baton Pass will be BARRED from use until that particular stat boost has been removed. Example being, if you used Barrier on Mew and you have BP, you cannot BP unless your Defense boosts were hazed away or were dropped by an attacking move (i.e haze from tapu fini, shadow bone from marowak). That way, you can still bring a set involving Swords Dance + Baton Pass on something like Gliscor (no clue why), it can be allowed for usage as long as it doesn't interfere with the clause during gameplay. This will also make sure that drypass will be the only way to use Baton Pass, keeping it as a momentum gaining move in your builds. You are also not limited on items or abilities within this ruling, which people also have an issue about for some reason.

I really don't appreciate the fact that people want to remove Baton Pass entirely because of their frustration towards speed pass teams. The main culprit of that frustration is literally just stat pass, not the move itself. You are never gonna hear people bitching about Celebi using BP to avoid getting pursuit trapped (likewise with Shedinja), this thread is would have never been created due to something like that. The creation of this was Stat pass, that is the strategy we want gone, not the move. You can disagree with me as much as you want, however it is fact. I also don't like that there are arguments about wanting to ban the move to kill away shed stall, when that strategy isn't even awful and it's not broken. I feel this should be re-visualized and approached a different way rather than jumping the "ban BP" bandwagoning that is going on right now. Thank you for your time.
Banning stat pass and not Baton Pass itself makes absolutely no sense. Why are we literally bending over backwards to keep this move in the game, going as far as to nerf it to the point where it is simply a shell of its former self simply to preserve some niche strategies that are hardly even used in the game? Banning the passing of any stat boosts would obviously solve any lingering issues about Baton Pass's ability to be a 'cheap' and potentially broken strategy, but why bother? The text of the move says, "The user switches places with a party Pokémon in waiting and passes along any stat changes." So why are we just arbitrarily deciding to axe the second part of the move? We don't do this with any other attack. What if we unbanned Double Team, but nerfed it to where you're only allowed to use it if your Evasion is currently at -1 or lower. If your opponent uses Defog on your Pokemon, or sets up Gravity, then your Pokemon is allowed to use Double Team, but only until its Evasion once again becomes +0 or the equivalent of +0. In any other instance, the Pokemon in question is not allowed to use it. Now, this example obviously isn't a direct parallel, but it's impossible to really craft a perfect mirror for this scenario since Baton Pass is a very unique move. Regardless, the point still stands. Why bother with altering the fundamental properties of the move, continuing to tinker with it for generations, and not just ban the move itself? Obviously, banning stat passing would remedy all issues, but that's not really the main point here. The primary point is that the entire concept of nerfing Baton Pass and not simply outright banning it was an idiotic idea in the first place, and we should ultimately just make up for our past failures and end the lifespan of this move as soon as possible.


Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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Quoting myself because why do we need to discuss this for like the 9th time

I'm pretty sure you don't need anything complex to justify Baton Pass isn't broken.

Baton Pass is not broken whatsoever on any user not also using boosting moves. Baton Pass is not broken on many (in fact most) Pokémon while they do use boosting moves.

The only sense in banning Baton Pass is if it in isolation is a broken move, i.e. Broken on any reasonable Pokémon within the tier. It isn't.

Suppose Landorus-T was broken with double dance sets and that SD or RP was signature to Lando. We would never ban the signature move, we'd ban the Pokemon.

Now we didn't do that for Baton Pass for very good reason, but we've now claused it down to one Baton Pass user that can't pass speed and other stats. There are others who are willing to make it that you can't even pass speed. That that alone can be too much. That's ok and I think most agree with that.

But anything beyond that point is like my Lando-T example. Anything further (ie totally banning Baton Pass) is unreasonably limiting numerous other users who are not remotely broken for the sake of preserving one or two mons.

We don't ban blanket ban individual moves to preserve Pokemon. We've never done it before. Period.
Smogon first and foremost tiers Pokemon. Outright bans of moves are an absolute last resort, not compatible with this philosophy.

Because Smogon tiers Pokemon, we should only ban a move when it allows that many more Pokemon to be legal. Totally banning OHKO moves lets us not ban Articuno, Rhyperior, etc etc (long list). Totally banning Baton Pass would free up... well nothing, compared to our current clause. UU would maybe get back Scolipede (though they chose not to) and if they didn't ban Baton Pass maybe would have banned Celebi. So that's 2 mons. I don't know of any others that are currently BL that would drop or are currently in a tier but will get banned if we don't change. Please enlighten me if there are others. XY came and went and the baton pass clause worked quite well and could be even further limited if necessary by a reasonable proposal. A few edge cases do not amount to enough to affect 100 other Pokemon.


best birb
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The problem with Baton Pass is that it really isn't comparable to other moves. I would argue no move reaches the level of complexity and has as many contingencies, entire team styles, and uses that Baton Pass does. I would put Substitute at number 2 for most complex move, and a distant one at that.

I think we've reached the point to where trying to limit it in some way is no longer an option. It worked in ADV with banning Ingrain + Baton Pass Smeargle, because that allowed one of the major ways that most teams had of combating BP chains (phazing) to actually work without having to "bend over backward" to not get creamed by them. Some people would argue BP is still broken in ADV, but it is definitely now manageable with the Ingrain ban.

BP is currently supremely limited and still a problem as deemed by the people that know this metagame best. BP chains (or lack thereof, BP quick passers may be better) have too many tools at their disposal to make combating the chain/teamstyle unmanageable for current teams that also have to deal with the huge number of Pokemon and team types currently available.

I personally think it would be worth pursuing unlimiting BP and instead suspecting Espeon and Scolipede (or whichever most prominent user that makes the chain(s) unmanageable), but if that is not a desired course of action I don't think it'd be unreasonable to pursue banning the move Baton Pass as a whole, using the same uncompetitiveness logic as Swagger.


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So first off, shoutouts to UltiMario for compiling that list, though I'd have to argue Micle Berry being on that list, since its accuracy boost only applies to the user's next move so I assume it cannot be passed off as the effect is merely temporary.

On another note, this is exactly what I mean when I said that "StatPass clause seems straightforward but only makes things simpler by pretense", because holy shit, all of these factors to account for makes StatPass clause far more complex than the previous Baton Pass clauses combined; even the most recent BP clause narrows it down a little by preventing Speed + other stat pass while still permitting stuff like CoilPass, but StatPass clause targets pretty much everything that even has the potential to boost stats, unintentional or not. Not to mention there remains the issue of how the moves are going to be handled:
Do note those moves would only be banned with Baton Pass if the user had a Z-Crystal matching the type of those moves. So no, you couldn't use Firium Z WoW Baton Pass Shedinja, but you could use Focus Sash WoW Baton Pass Shedinja. We already implement this type of ban for Evasion Clause, allowing Pokemon to use moves with a +evasion Z-Move effect as long as they don't have a Z-Crystal of a matching type to actually use the Z-Move with.
By the way, this is actually the biggest reason I am opposed to the StatPass clause, as I've hinted at many times by pointing out 'teambuilding restriction': Pokemon that merely include that combination by chance would be unable to be brought into battle even if the Z-crystal were to be intended to be used for other purposes. Although regardless, whether the clause be "move + Baton Pass" or "move + Z-crystal + Baton Pass", either would very likely lead to more than a few teambuilding conflicts later down the line.

Merely looking at the list of moves + items + abilities that would be barred from being used alongside Baton Pass is already indicating toward the fact that if all of those restrictions are necessary to maintain StatPass clause as a whole (so the clause would not be selective/bias) in order to keep Baton Pass from going out of control for the umpteenth time, then maybe there is something inherently wrong about Baton Pass itself after all. Oglemi is right in that Baton Pass has developed to the point where banning the possible combinations of StatPass is beginning to look more unreasonable than banning Baton Pass.


Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
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It does not matter that Baton Pass without stat boosts isn't broken. That argument is entirely irrelevant. Aegislash without King's Shield wasn't broken in XY (as a noob I made that argument personally and was quickly put in my place) yet Aegislash was banned because Aegislash was broken with all its most notable aspects in tact. Baton Pass is broken with all its most notable aspects in tact, so Baton Pass should be banned. Why are we bending over backwards to preserve what little remains of this move? It baffles me that this is even a debate.

Literally the entire OU council is in agreement that Baton Pass should be banned. Let them ban it.


One Active Dawg
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I don't know how realistic it would be but would stat decreases be affected by such a change? Just because I could see a situation where a few stat decreases could be passed to a topsy turvy mon or something similar.


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I don't know how realistic it would be but would stat decreases be affected by such a change? Just because I could see a situation where a few stat decreases could be passed to a topsy turvy mon or something similar.
There are a few issues with this situation - currently, the only Topsy-Turvy mons are Malamar, Inkay, and Smeargle, all of which are woefully unviable in that role. In addition, should a viable Topsy-Turvy mon be released in the future, a baton passer would have to successfully pass them negative stats and the topsy-turvy user would have to spend a turn with negative stats to successfully activate Topsy-Turvy, during which either the baton passer or recipient could be easily killed or in the case of +def -atk swaps, easily revenge killed.


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I wasn’t going to bother myself posting in this thread because fighting for a lost cause seems pointless (most people seem to agree that bp should be outright banned, including at least 3 council members), but after seeing ZAMROCK, of all people, defending bp… that really really blew my mind, like LOL FOR DAMN REAL???!!! So, I guess I will post something after all.

Firstly, I wanna say that I feel extremely disappointed with myself. As the guy that proposed “limit 1 bp user per team, can’t pass spe”, I felt so stupid for letting other people convince me that pure speed pass would have been fine. I FUCKING KNEW IT WASN’T FINE, but I still agreed. If the bp clause was exactly as my original proposal, I doubt we would have had any of these issues over the last few years (my clause was made in 2014 iirc?).

I’m going to be honest with the community and make a confession after all these years. The main reason why I helped the council in 2014 regarding the bp issue is because I wanted my geopass team to be eternized as a team that was my greatest masterpiece (seriously, that was indeed my most creative team I ever made in my life) and was deemed too broken for the metagame to handle. But then my intentions changed. Once I took part of the discussion I realized I was doing something even greater, I was about to change a current clause of the most played official tier that was massively played on PS. I knew I would change history forever, so I couldn’t screw up. Trying to come up with a balanced way to preserve the move was a hard task that took me a few days and a lot of effort, and then others just came in and tried to convince me to modify my original proposal, and yeeeeeeah I got easily “manipulated” (idk the right word here, apologies... english isn’t my main language). I was happy with anything at that point, anything to speed up the process to get my own team(s) banned. I feel so dumb when I think about that right now… I was so naive lol but that’s a lesson I won’t ever forget. IF YOU THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG, JUST SAY IT OUT LOUD: “NO! I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT, FUCKER”.

I think it’s too late to come back to my original proposal because it’s embarrassing to say “lol smogon is going to make a bp clause v4”. I mean I don’t even play mons that much anymore, so I guess you guys can just outright ban the move. The current clause is really fucking messy, remove it asap. Yeah, all my hard work for nothing, right? xD

Once again, I just posted something here because of zamrock (love you man) and because making the bp clause was a fun experience that I will remember forever, and sharing some thoughts was a pretty cool way to finally say good bye to the thing that made me grow the passion I had for mons for so many years. cheers.
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One Active Dawg
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There are a few issues with this situation - currently, the only Topsy-Turvy mons are Malamar, Inkay, and Smeargle, all of which are woefully unviable in that role. In addition, should a viable Topsy-Turvy mon be released in the future, a baton passer would have to successfully pass them negative stats and the topsy-turvy user would have to spend a turn with negative stats to successfully activate Topsy-Turvy, during which either the baton passer or recipient could be easily killed or in the case of +def -atk swaps, easily revenge killed.
Oh I'm not asking about the viability of such a combo. I was just curious if stat decreases would be included under this no stat pass idea. A minor detail but still good to know since if it is included, things like intimidate would wreck dry/sub pass.


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Oh I'm not asking about the viability of such a combo. I was just curious if stat decreases would be included under this no stat pass idea. A minor detail but still good to know since if it is included, things like intimidate would wreck dry/sub pass.
My list currently factors thing you can do without your opponent's help, which would be a teambuilder ban. Since Topsy Turvy only works on the opponent, you'd have to drop your stats and then have your opponent cooperate with you to pass stats. You could do this much more easily just by using Flatter.

I already factored in methods that would let you abuse your opponents abilities and moves to get stat boosts in the list (Contrary vs stat drops, Flatter vs Magic Bounce/Coat, etc), and mentioned in that post that the only way to pass boosted stats would be total cooperation with your opponent, by having them give you the bonuses and then having you pass them. Passing something like a Tail Glow Heart Swapped to you, negative bonuses Topsy Turvy'd on you, or even a Flatter used on you will never happen in a serious OU game. The only option to do this through a statpass ban would require just greying out the button, which is obviously a lot less ideal compared to a teambuilder ban.

Also thanks for noticing Micle Berry not being a passable effect. It's removed from the list.

Deck Knight

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If I may offer a radical proposal -

We have been operating with a sort of hobbled versiom of Baton Pass since at least the last generation. Why not fo a single suspect test on totally unfettered Baton Pass.
No limits on number of users or what you can pass, just the move as it naturally exists.

I know I can already hear the groans, but my argument is this: With Z-Moves and Terrain, KO'ing a Pokemon mid-chain is a lot easier than it used to be. Several more Pokemon have access to Mold Breaker with Phazing capabilities (or Haze / Clear Smog) than in prior generations, and lets say this unfettered metagame is broken and unplayable.

Baton Pass then gets banned based on its natural state rather than some hobbled version of it that we're trying to keep around, with people wondering if there's some non-broken element of it.

Colonel M

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That is by far the dumbest proposal I've read in this thread, and I had to read some pretty stupid shit in here from eyesore users already.

We already know the capabilities of Smash Passing, GeoPass, EeveePass (which btw fuck this thing in Ubers), Quiver Pass, Baton Pass chains, etc, from previous generations. We really do not need to explore in greater detail on no frills Baton Pass; especially now that Baton Pass has received more abusers in the forms of Necrozma and Power Trip Krookodile.

I get that people don't want to completely ban Baton Pass for the sake of preserving DryPass, but why preserve for such a strategy that only saves two Pokemon in OU when UU on down has strictly banned any form of Baton Pass? Not to mention that Drypassing is actually more beneficial in lower tiers for Pokemon such as Espeon and co. Personally, I am not a fan of complex bans barring very rare exceptions, and I do not think to solely preserve an incredibly small userbase of Shedinja Stall nor stall with Pyukumuku justifies keeping Drypass. I doubt Pyukumuku would even be considered for stall with only drypassing allowed since its niche is not only being an Unaware wall, but also Cursepassing to threats such as Calm Mind Mega Sableye and Calm Mind Blissey.

There's also no need to Suspect this thing either as far as a Suspect Test. That is also an absurd suggestion I see floating around in Discord, OU Room, and here.

Tl;dr - Ban Baton Pass and screw making the clause more complex for two Cish ranked Pokemon in OU.


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Why is Baton Pass banworthy?

In SM, with the introduction of Necrozma and Magearna, Baton Pass practically got the two best Speed Pass recipients seen in Pokemon thus far. In all my time using and playing Baton Pass teams, the only thing to reach anywhere near the same level as efficiency these two is Manaphy in ORAS, which has plenty of all out stops. Nothing else even comes close to the amount of games these two just win after freely receiving speed boosts.

With a few speed boosts behind it, Necrozma becomes one of the most potent set up sweepers in the game. While it most surely cannot break past a Dark-type, when paired with a Dugtrio, it becomes incredibly simple to remove every viable Dark-type from the match via a death fodder. Outside of this, Necrozma quickly and surely gathers boosts and is capable of nailing every possible form of counterplay with a boosted Stored Power. Pokemon can attempt to status Necrozma, but 1) they must be able to survive a boosted Stored Power and 2) must force the player to send in Necrozma rather than Espeon somehow. In matchups where there is evidently something carrying Toxic that can trouble Necrozma, Espeon will be passed to instead. Necrozma quickly gathers defense boosts, allowing it to take hits from either side, and, thanks to its ability, is able to shrug off even super effective attacks after a boost or two.

The other threatening sweeper, Magearna, is quite different than the previously mentioned Necrozma. While Magearna's ability makes it harder to stop once it gets going, it also takes less to get going than Necrozma does. Thanks to Z Moves, Magearna's base SpA and movepool, it is capable of nabbing a quick kill with a Twinkle Tackle, and then gaining a boost and becoming incredibly troubling to handle afterwards. Magearna also can set up, should it find the opportunity to do so, with Calm Mind. While Magearna is a lot more threatening due to its immediate firepower, it does have hardstops that it cannot get past, unlike Necrozma.

Now, what exactly is broken about Baton Pass?
  • Baton Pass grants these aforementioned Pokemon with free boosts, without requiring they run a Speed boosting move such as Rock Polish or Shift Gear.
  • Baton Pass teams give the user the choice to send the specific boosts to a certain Pokemon; while a Pokemon could potentially obtain the same boosts, it necessitates they set up on Pokemon that potentially can eliminate them, while the boosts come to them safe of harm.
  • Baton Pass teams do not require skill to win; one of the biggest points in our Tiering philosophy is that the better player should win more often than not, and Baton Pass severely hurts this idea.
  • Baton Pass has incredibly limited counterplay. While there are ways to be 100% well prepared for Baton Pass teams, they simply have no practicality outside of being used to beat these teams. While metagame adaptation is not something we shun, having some form of counterplay does not mean a Pokemon shouldn't be banned. Every Pokemon has some surefire counter, even those banished to Ubers, however, even though this specified counterplay may be legal in OU, does not mean the banished Uber would be OK in OU just due to the existence of a counter.
Some Replays of Baton Pass in action:

Why ban Baton Pass rather than Stat Passing / Speed Passing / Scolipede?

I'd like to preface this bit by stating clearly that I think the past editions of the Baton Pass clause were simply mistakes. I was not apart of the Council at the time; in fact everyone on the current Council aside from M Dragon wasn't, and I do not wish to defame them for following through with the decision they made, but I definitely do not agree with it being the right one. Our tiering is meant to be simple, straightforward, and efficient. Our previous clause was none of these things and was only put in place to save collateral damage, which completely goes against past decisions made and is not something I wish to do ourselves. Did we ban Speed Boost off of Blaziken? No. Did we ban Protean off of Greninja? No. Did we ban King's Shield off of Aegislash? No. The list goes on and on. Personally, I do not care in the slightest about what should happen do Pokemon that get effected by the loss of Dry Pass, nor should they be taken into account for this decision. Albeit, loads of people surely disagree with this sentiment and philosophy, however it is the way we've done things in the past and is the way the current OU Council wishes to do things now. We should not create silly and unnecessary clauses to preserve a Pokemon's ability to run a certain set. I previously made a post reiterating what I have inside of this post; nerfing an aspect of a move that inherently has broken aspects is simply foolish. Banning a part of Baton Pass would lead to an ability being banned off of a Pokemon, an item being banned off of a Pokemon, and so forth until we have an absurd amount of ridiculous bans that really don't make sense practically.

Baton Pass, as a whole, has very uncompetitive and overpowered aspects that can be abused to similar levels of efficiency regardless of what Pokemon runs it. Meaning, Baton Pass, the move, is broken, in the opinion of the OU Council, a very large portion of the community, and myself. The move itself has issues surrounding it that make it unfit for the metagame. We are not going to restrict the move itself when it in itself is the issue and should be banned. While our most recent variation of the clause did do this, to a lesser extent, we believe it was the wrong philosophy and a mistake. This is a move that certain Pokemon abuse; while not every Pokemon that abuses this move is banworthy while using it, it is not only one Pokemon that can use the move to the extent it will be brought up as banworthy.

To make things abundantly clear; Scolipede is not the only viable Baton Passer that can lead to unfair strategies. In fact, earlier on in the generation we saw ben gay's Mew Pass team as much as we did Scolipede pass. While it isn't quite as effective as the standard Baton Pass roaming around currently, it still has the same traits as standard, providing players with mindless autowin scenarios, uncompetitive strategies, and simply being flat out broken. This in of itself pretty much negates any discussion of anything beyond Stat Passing, which is not something we shall be doing, not an option. Should this in itself not convince you, I also urge you to consider the lesser Speed Passers than Scolipede. Ninjask, Rock Polish Mew, Rock Polish Gliscor, and even Combusken would see usage in OU should Scolipede find itself banned because of the move Baton Pass. Should Speed Passing as a whole be banned, other means would be abused, such as Defense passing with Mew and the like. Scolipede is not the reason Baton Pass is as effective as it is; the abusers presented to it in Sun and Moon have pushed it over the edge and would continue to be broken even if the extent of stats being passed were changed.

Why a Quick Ban instead of a Suspect Test?

Due to the fact the last version of Baton Pass was simply decided amongst the OU Council, I believe it to be fit to follow up this decision with refinement. We do not see a Suspect Test providing unexpected results, and we have heard a large amount of community input, between this thread and the loads of discussion brought up to us about Baton Pass. As such, we simply do not seek to waste time and would rather make a quick decision.

With all of the above considered, Baton Pass is now BANNED from SM OU.

What of Baton Pass in ORAS and BW?

While tiering with old generations is always an awkward discussion, as there is no active Council for said generation, it is not something we simply have ignored. While discussion on the tiering of Baton Pass in past generations is more than welcome, we will not be making a decision on it at this point in time. While I do believe the current Council should be more than free to make a decision on tiering in ORAS, considering all of our members were active players of this generation and most were apart of the Council towards the tailend of the generation, I do not however see reason to make a hasty decision when there is little unanimity. Simply put, I do not find Baton Pass in ORAS, at this point in time, to be broken or banworthy. While I do entirely disagree with the clause put in place, making a change to it is not necessary considering the effectiveness for current Baton Pass in ORAS OU. The primary sweepers in this generation, Manaphy and Espeon, meet themselves with issues and potential hard stops that are far more difficult to work around than Baton Pass in SM. Their counters are not easily circumvented.

While this is mostly my opinion, I'm not going to rule out a potential discussion should one come to be, however I do not agree with any action being taken against BP in ORAS. A sub-optimal clause that functions to an acceptable level does not warrant fixing. Should there be disagreement in regards to this philosophy or the degree of 'brokeness' of Baton Pass in ORAS or BW, feel free to create a discussion on this.
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