When is this change taking place? How could dream world abilities be combined with a move that was only learned in a previous generation?
As a steel type Scizor is resistant to Poison and Dragon attacks. This makes Scizor very important for beating Toxic Spikes (if you can’t reflect them with Espeon) since he can switch in, Substitute, and then Baton Pass to another Pokemon who will avoid the Toxic Spikes if behind the Substitute when entering.
This is actually not true as Substitute does not block Toxic Spikes. I found this to be quite a problem actually, because if I don't get Espeon in as they Toxic Spike, my entire team save Ninjask and Scizor gets poisoned meaning setting up Substitutes and boosting becomes a lot more difficult. Luckily, putting in Venemoth solves this problem.
The problem with Venemoth though, is that it can't really stop Choiced Thunderus-T. If they lead with Politoed and me with Ninjask, they can switch to Thunderus-T on the Protect then proceed to spam Thunder without me being able to pass Venemoth safely to Disable its Thunder or Sleep Powder it. For this reason, Gliscor seems to be a better option as most strong attacks other than Electric types can be dealt with by other members, but a strong Thunder seems unstoppable.
Haruno said:I still don't get how tc is naive enough to believe prankster volbeat will encore a baton pass........ or sableye taunting on a mon with an offense move.
If you have a substitute up when you Baton Pass, the receiving Pokemon is not poisoned. Toxic Spike is normally found on defensive stall teams, so it's very easy to get free boosts off while they set up toxic spikes, and then switch to Espeon and proceed to sweep with Stored Power. If they do manage to break your Substitute while they have Toxic Spikes down, just switch to Vaporeon and get a Substitute off and switch to another (Vaporeon can tank the Poison damage normally) or just use Scizor to get a Substitute up since he is immune to the Poison.
As a Baton Pass lover myself, I tried this team out for a couple hours. It is a great, solid team but the ONE real nitpick I have is that Mr. Mime should use Encore instead of Barrier. I understand your reasoning for using barrier, but I have never needed to use Mr. Mime for defense boosting. Not only this, but you can actually encore Roar (pretty hilarious) and then setup that way. I have also several times taken advantage of Calm Mind/Bulk Up/Curse users by encore locking them and then setting up my own calm mind. The rest of your setup is solid and I love playing it... its the first truly viable BP team I have seen this generation.
One more thing, minimize the attack IVs on anything not using hidden power. This reduces self damage from confusion and damage from Foul Play.
HiImGrey said:http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xs1nxo
Start of turn 2
The foe's Scizor used Substitute!
The foe's Scizor already has a substitute.
Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes!
Poison spikes were scattered all around the feet of JG is ME's team!
Rain continues to fall!
The foe's Scizor's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scizor's Speed rose!
Start of turn 3
The foe's Scizor used Substitute!
The foe's Scizor already has a substitute.
Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes!
Poison spikes were scattered all around the feet of JG is ME's team!
Rain continues to fall!
The foe's Scizor's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Scizor's Speed rose!
Start of turn 4
Tentacruel used Protect!
Tentacruel protected itself!
The foe's Scizor used Baton Pass!
JG is ME called Scizor back!
JG is ME sent out Politoed! (Vaporeon)
Rain continues to fall!
Great Idea about the IV's. Ill definitely do that. I use barrier quite a lot on Mr. Mime, but I see the use in Encore as well. I use Barrier on Mr. Mime when I am already at +6 Calm Minds, or most importantly, when I am trying to deal with Dolphan or Hippowdon. If they don't Roar on my switch then I can still Barrier while blocking Roar.
Hippowdon is pretty easy to deal with. Sub turn 1, Protect Turn 2, pass to your choice of Espeon if you really want to force him out or Mr. Mime, who should use encore. If he refuses to leave, you can eventually force him out anyways when you get to max CM by using Espeon.
Donphan is a tad more annoying, but I have found that the best way to deal with him is to sub turn 1, protect turn two. Then pass to Mr. Mime. If he roared, encore it. If he Ice Sharded, still encore it as it does a pittance to Mr. Mime and then pass to Vaporeon and kill him with Vaporeon.
I have faced this exact team on PS against someone who claimed that they were testing for results to give back to you, and if they were lying, then congrats, you've made a team worth stealing!
I have to say when I faced this, it was so fun to play against. It was hard to fight the instinct of sitting back and watch all the boosting unfurl. But nonetheless, I fought back as hard as I could and relatively easily foresaw the Ninjask being the lead, and countered it with my Mamoswine's Ice Shard on the second turn, relatively easily OHKOing it. The rest of the team was harder to counter as a misplay on my part by not bringing out Genesect as Scizor came out, allowing it to switch out and continue to wreak havoc. The battle ended on a very close 1-0 where my Mew managed to TauntBurn Umbreon to death.
As you are probably aware, the team is brilliant all round, and I'm sure that in the hands of a seemingly good player like yourself, you wouldn't make the same greedy decisions as the few representing your team.
What I wanted to do was list threats such as Dragon Tail or status removers like Haze or whatever, but then noticed the threat list and was then downhearted.
So I will end this post by saying, excellent team, extremely well thought out, deserves all the attention it has been getting and can't wait to see it in action in the hands of a better player.
The two solutions for strong electric attacks I could find are yours and run celebi over umbreon with a two attack espeon. Celebi has natural cure to shake off paralysis and like vaporeon can setup on blissey.
You should be impressed that I didn't tl;dr that response haha! Unfortunately there is the numerous amount of unpreventable threats such as held items, etc, but thats something you have to deal with. I reckon the reason this team is such a success is that most teams don't carry counters to a team like this. Although I have noted that a Skill Link Cloyster on your lead can wreck your lead, if you haven't found this out yourself.
And about facing the team, my PS tag is Yeezy D and I'd be quite intimidated if you challenged me as I only one the previous time banking on crits and misplays. Its a bloody dangerous team.
Ran Celebi over Umbreon initially. Biggest problem this causes is that you have three Psychic types on a single team, which makes you very weak to Bug, Dark, and Ghost attacks. As of now, I think Venomoth is still the best bet. But I could try running Celebi again. The old set I used had Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice and Giga Drain. Maybe throwing Recover or Substitute in there wouldn't be a bad idea.
Actually, I cram another move onto Vaporeon's moveset to take care of recovery, Wish. My current team is as stands, it seems to work for me against a variety of threats. The only thing I really fear now is Skarmory, who is not that common. Even when they do have a Skarmory, some smart prediction can get it killed, and leading with Espeon allows me to 2HKO it with HP Fire.
Ninjask @ Mental Herb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Protect
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
The Ninjask is unaltered, aside from maxxing defense over your slight speed investment, which I found pointless considering if you are even slightly uncertain just protect turn 1 and you outspeed eeeeverything. Even choice scarf gengar is outsped, the fastest thing you will realistically see.
Espeon @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Baton Pass
I turn Espeon into the sweeper. You usually only need to bounce roar/whirlwind/taunt once at a time, so you can do a hit and run with Espeon early on when its still too weak to sweep.
Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
Celebi replaces Espeon as the secondary calm mind sweeper and also still fulfills the role of being a CMer that can setup on toss/shade users with its trolltastic 101 HP substitutes. Grass knot allows Celebi to eliminate Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Donphan with ease. Celebi also sets up on Thundurus-T and Magnezone, unless they pack the rare signal beam. HP Fire simply isn't strong enough.
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 244 HP / 228 Def / 36 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Acid Armor
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
I take out Vaporeons only attack, which I rarely if ever used, in exchange for the move Wish. Wish greatly extends the life span of not only vaporeon, but every pokemon on the team... this becomes especially true if the opposing team sets up hazards. Wish is even more potent than it usually is considering that Vaporeon has more health than anything else on the team; as a matter of fact Mr. Mime, who has the least health on the team, recovers 81% of his health when passed Vaporeon's wish, making him able to become fully operational again if he can safely switch in through stealth rock. I think you should seriously consider putting Wish on your Vaporeon, it greatly extends the longevity of the team.
Scizor @ Leftovers
Trait: Light Metal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Scizor is the only thing that hasn't changed at all. Its the same Scizor you use.
Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
Trait: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
This Mr. Mime is similar to the one in your OP, but uses encore over barrier. However, it appears you already made a similar change to your own set.
I hope this feedback helps.
Thanks for the input guys. I'm glad u like the team. The current biggest problem this team faces is choice spec users that have powerful stab attacks. i need a specially defensive pokemon who can deal with Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Thunder, Shadow Ball and Signal Beam. That, or a way to tank the hit and return a 1HKO. Venomoth is decent with disable, but ultimately unreliable and suspect to critical hits. Any ideas?
I have an idea. Use Zapdos instead of Venomoth. This is the set:Thanks for the input guys. I'm glad u like the team. The current biggest problem this team faces is choice spec users that have powerful stab attacks. i need a specially defensive pokemon who can deal with Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Thunder, Shadow Ball and Signal Beam. That, or a way to tank the hit and return a 1HKO. Venomoth is decent with disable, but ultimately unreliable and suspect to critical hits. Any ideas?
I have an idea. Use Zapdos instead of Venomoth. This is the set:
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Roar
- Baton Pass
This solves the Tornadus and Skarmory issue to an extent. Tornadus-T is OHKOed by thunderbolt after a round of LO recoil. You will hardly ever see choice specs shadow ball/dark pulse. It can tank hurricane and signal beam. It can also tank by choice specs thunder by using roost to gain an electric resistance. You can heal up and then roar them out. You can use agility over thunderbolt in order to boost speed if ninjask in down.
Here is another recommendation:
Politoed (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Armor
- Substitute
- Aqua Ring
- Baton Pass
With Aqua ring, your baton pass team will be able to stop losing health if a substitute is broken in two or more hits. The 40 speed ivs are to outspeed Choice Scarf Latios at +3. I also had to tweak the hp evs of your pokemon so that they are exactly divisible by 16. This enables them to use substitute with no health loss over two turns. Moverover, Scizor no longer needs to use roost. The team also heals hp when up against a sandstorm/hail team.
I also use red card on espeon. That also means that I use morning sun instead of rest+chesto berry. The reaspn behind this is that I can encore a set up move with Mr.Mime, put up a sub and then switch to Espeon to phaze them. This also helps you to beat Calm Mind Jrachi. You can boost alongside it with Encore+Calm Mind and then switch to Espeon. Red Card allows you to phaze Skarmory once if it tried to Brave Bird Espeon. By the way, have you thought about using Hidden Power Fire and Signal beam to turn espeon into a sweeper?
Here is the importable of your team with my changes:
Scizor (Ninjask) (F) @ Mental Herb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spd
Bold Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Baton Pass
Umbreon (Espeon) (F) @ Red Card
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Stored Power
- Morning Sun
- Baton Pass
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Agility
- Baton Pass
Politoed (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Armor
- Substitute
- Aqua Ring
- Baton Pass
Slowbro (Mr. Mime) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Soundproof
EVs: 204 HP / 252 SDef / 52 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
Skarmory (Scizor) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 220 HP / 248 Def / 40 Spd
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Iron Defense
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
very interesting. Thanks for the EV tweaks. Right now I am currently experimenting with two others, like Zapdos. Have you considered a specially defensive jolteon? Volt Absorb and resistance to Hurricane (and STAB Thunderbolt to 1HKO Tornudus) makes it every legit. It also has access to Wish to provide some sustain to the team. The problem I have with this current setup, and a problem I foresee with your Zapdos team, is that Mr. Mime is the only specially boosting Pokemon. An alternative solution I am currently experimenting with is using Emogla. With access to Charge, Thunderbolt, Roost, Encore, Substitute, there seems to be a viable set somewhere in there!
I'll test your team before I make assumptions, but without Substitute I feel Zapdos is weak to critical hits. Likewise, using Roar to phase doesn't really solve the problem. If I Roar, then Baton Pass to Mr. Mime, and they switch the Pokemon back in, then I am force to switch back to Zapdos, heal up, and Roar again. Actually, you can get one calm mind with Mr.Mime after they switch back their pokemon in. This would continue and I wouldn't be able to do much and likely die to a critical hit.
Hello,
Your team is really interesting, and well explained.
I love using what I would call defensive baton pass (that means no smash pass), but I don't appreciate having only one reliable sweeper.
I think it's really important to hva a few attacks somewhere, because espeon is quite frail, and at the beginning i can't come on anything to sweep. So I think having scald on Vaporeon (grabbing a burn is amazing to set-up easily) and thunder on M.mime. I use thunderbolt on my M.mime, but thunder seems better, as m.mime is mostly used against rain teams).
I see a few weakness on your team, tell me how you face them please. Sorry if I made mistakes analysing your weaknesses.
First of all, some rarely used dark pokemon seems to be a pain. Sash Zoroark lead (and often disguised) or Weavile, who can both learn taunt, are hard to face for Ninjask and espeon won't like switching in, even with a speed boost. Hydregon with taunt or choice spec can be a pain too.
I also think Volcarona lead with Giga drain can be hurt only by toxik, and it might be even worse if it is the chesto rest or substitute (I still see them sometimes).
Maybe the worse threat if Ninjask have to go out quickly (maybe fearing a roar from ninetailes) is nasty plot Shiftry under the sun, can oko your whole team with his stabs and hp fire. Happily, very few people use it.
Another one could be Gyarados, because of it versatility. If you mispredict the set, then it's game over. Dragon dance, substitute, dragon tail and especially roar and taunt are useful tools that can ruin your sweep.
Good luck for trying to seek the perfect baton pass team.
You just gave me a very good idea. Use Charge instead of Roar on Zapdos. By the way, the red card on Espeon can help you out of many tight situations: against those pokemon who use calm mind(Jirachi is the most problematic).
Here is a replay showing aqua ring's usefulness: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou4247778
LOL! The guy could have lead with his cloyster.