Baton Pass Teams: Why are they looked down upon by the community?

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XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2

This question was the main reason I created this topic: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47938

So, why are Baton Pass Teams looked down upon by the community? I mean, they may be strong, but they aren't uncounterable by any means, nor do they require extremely specific actions to do so. So why is Baton Pass Mew or Baton Pass Teams in general looked down upon by several members of the community?
 
Because they don't know how to beat them. Or use them, apparently, or at least that's what I gathered from some of the responses in the previous thread.

I'm not sure this necessarily applies towards all BP teams though (although I guess the Deoxys-S ban is related to some extent).
 
Full Baton Pass teams have big problems with most offensive teams, and they depend on working absolutely 100% perfectly to win. Most of the time, once one Poke dies, the user leaves because they have absolutely zero chance of winning. The other times, once someone sets up a full BP chain successfully, their opponent leaves because there's nothing they can do.

BP Chains also don't really take much strategy beyond just picking 5 Pokemon with Baton Pass and a boosting move and then giving their bonuses to a sixth.

Finally, they get torn to shreds by most things. Priority, Taunt, random crits, status. It's very hard to get a full BP done, so they lose more often than they win.

Note that I'm cool with partial BP teams- I used a Lopunny lead to BP to some huge UU threats, and my team kicked some massive ass. It's not really a BP team, just a "here, have some speed" team, and it worked pretty well.
 
Because it requires a lot less skill to use effectively. People tend to despise things that decrease the amount of skill present in pokemon eg. Wobb's banishment, Wifiers banning "hax items", etc. Although D/P is largely luck based as a whole - that's why a fair few "veterans" pick D/P as their least favourite gen.
 
Baton Pass teams are simple not as effective in OU as they are in Ubers. That is not to say they can't work - rather just that they are a lot harder to make work. I don't really understand why this is, to be honest. Initially I thought it was the Mew set that made it broken...

Mew
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
- Taunt
- Baton Pass

... but then I realised that Gliscor can run this exact same set in OU, while retaining considerably better typing and physical defense.

I don't really think Baton Pass teams are frowned on too much, but one reason why some people dislike using them or playing against them is because they employ the same rinse and repeat formula for every battle. The same reason people don't like Breloom, and dislike Garchomp. It apparently takes away the 'skill' in the battle.
 
To me, the main issue with BP chains (note the last term) is that they are (or may be) the strategy with the highest risk/reward rate we have nowadays. As Seven Deadly Sins said, once the chain is broken, the strategy has been rendered useless; if it's not broken and finished successfully, it's gg a good number of times. I don't see any real problem with it, though, just that it's TOO boring to play against one once you realized you can't break it anymore. But that's what the "Leave" button is for!

Of course, I'm talking about OU, I don't play UU/Uber enough to say a thing about BP chains in those metagames.
 
I don't think that many members look down on BP teams. I use one, but have had moderate success, about 4 wins and 2 losses so far.
 
We're not complaining about teams, we're complaining about one BP to an unstoppable force in the Uber game.

A BP team is completly fair, if you mess up, you lose. That's the high risk high reward thing they're going for. You're just using one pokemon that helps another pokemon become something that makes people stop playing the uber metagame.

Also this thread is not worth anyones time. As it is worded incorrectly and the place where the discussion WAS, was on your team itself.

It's worded incorrectly as BP TEAMS are not looked down upon, what you're doing in the uber game many people do look down upon
 
I don't think Baton Pass teams are looked down on from a competitive standpoint.

The problem with them is that once it becomes apparent that they are going to work, the opponent leaves immediately. On the flipside, once it becomes apparent that they are going to fail, the user leaves immediately. It's like going to a baseball game, and one team forfeits in the first inning.

The second problem is the popularity of the move taunt. This amplifies the first problem because you get stuff like

Azelf used taunt!
BPGuy123 has left the room.
You win!

With deoxys gone, maybe they will begin to resurface again, but they are still boring as hell to play against.
 
All these "looked down upon" posts from people appear to be entirely baseless. I'm trying to think of where you could have heard of this and I can't find it. Really, where did you get the idea that serious competitive battlers "look down on" this kind of team? I'm curious

Baton Pass teams are generally thwartable and hard to build, and they don't enjoy as good of a success rate as one might hope they would. The only reason anyone would "look down upon them" is because they "suck" with Taunt, phazing, Perish Song, and whatnot.
 
Chris is me said:
I love all these "looked down upon" posts from people that are entirely baseless. I'm trying to think of wheer you could have heard of this and I can't find it. Really, where did you get the slightest idea that serious competitive battlers "look down on" this kind of team?

Baton Pass teams are generally thwartable and hard to build, and they don't enjoy as good of a success rate as one might hope they would. The only reason anyone would "look down upon them" is because they "suck".
Click to expand...

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47893
 
Baton Pass teams are looked down upon by a lot of players for these reasons:
  1. They are extremely easy to make and use.
  2. If the opponent uses Roar, Taunt, or Encore, then BP has already lost.
  3. If any pokemon on the team faints (including to critical hits), BP has lost.
  4. If your opponent carries priority moves, it is extremely difficult to win.
  5. Despite all the ridiculous downsides, players still use BP, and it forces players to prepare for something that shouldn't be a metagame threat to begin with. This is the same reason we are frustrated by "gimmick" sets that occasionally score a win even though, on average, they perform terribly (e.g. Sub/Salac Dodrio, Focus Sash non-leads).
 
Tricking anything screws up BP teams like nothing else.

A BP team in D/P is much easier to win against than a BP team was in R/S/E.
 
no one is looking down on Baton Pass TEAMS
Ive had a moderately successful baton pass OU team that invovled Acid Armor Vaporeon/Agility Zapdos that somehow led to Medicham, but thats a different story.

You see how at any given point in the chain, If I were to get Roared/Whirlwinded by the likes of Skarmory/Hippowdon, I lose, which is fair.

Instead, what your asking/doing in Ubers isnt a Baton Pass team at all, Its just a team designed to help out ONE pokemon in particular, in this case Mew.

Then, you see if an Giratina/Lugia came in, you would taunt them immediately?

Legacy Rider brought up that Gliscor has same moveset, but the difference is that Gliscor simply does not have as many oppurtunities to set up as Mew, even behind screens because Brick Break is actually more common in OU, and the amount of Ice Atks/Special Atkers, while probably porportionally less common than Ubers, is still quite daunting. Gliscor won't enjoy eating Ice Beams, even from the likes of something like Starmie, whereas Mew can survive Specs Kyogre Water Spouts behind a light screen, which is ridiculous as it is.

That, and as many people have stated, are alot easier to make/use, and therefore take less skill.
 
I've seen BP teams work really, really well at times, and others that haven't. Making a GOOD baton pass team is not as easy as people have said here and it usually comes down to who can outpredict the other one best.

But like people have said here, it usually just completely takes the fun out of the game. If the chain fully works, the opponent (usually) leaves, but if it doesn't the user of the BP team (usually) does.

And about the roar/whirlwind things, there is a move called ingrain and abilities like suction cups and soundproof. Most smart BP team users WILL have those moves.
 
What you people dont realize is that he's not referring to Baton Pass chains, hes using Baton Pass Mew as a standalone, which isnt even a Baton Pass team.

Its a team that happens to contain a Pokemon that uses Baton Pass, which isnt nearly the same thing

TAY said:
Baton Pass teams are looked down upon by a lot of players for these reasons:
  1. They are extremely easy to make and use.
  2. If the opponent uses Roar, Taunt, or Encore, then BP has already lost.
  3. If any pokemon on the team faints (including to critical hits), BP has lost.
  4. If your opponent carries priority moves, it is extremely difficult to win.
  5. Despite all the ridiculous downsides, players still use BP, and it forces players to prepare for something that shouldn't be a metagame threat to begin with. This is the same reason we are frustrated by "gimmick" sets that occasionally score a win even though, on average, they perform terribly (e.g. Sub/Salac Dodrio, Focus Sash non-leads).
Click to expand...

QFTW
 
I don't know where everyone is getting their data from, but Baton Pass teams in D/P are really really difficult to use. They are even more difficult to use really well. Since D/P is so offensive, there are much fewer chances to set up and there are many more counters to each individual BPer. They may have been really easy to pull off in ADV, but things have changed...unfortunately the attitude towards them hasn't caught up. Basically, why use 20 turns to set up when things like Lucario and Garchomp only need one turn to wreak just as much havoc?

The only real exception to this are the metagames with Deoxys-Speed, since the dual screen set basically guarantees that you are going to pass at least 2 boosts. In OU, this is no longer a problem and in Ubers there are still ways to stop it. Usually, the best way is just to power through them but things like Taunt (the best move in the game) also do wonders.

Baton Pass is actually much tougher to pull off than most other strategies in D/P. I commend anybody who is successful with one. I doubt that anybody in this thread that despises OU Baton Pass has actually used a bp team this gen.
 
Jrrr, the thing is though you either need to predict the Mew is coming or it gets the Rock Polish up and taunts you before you can taunt/sleep/anything it. Then you either switch out or stay in and TRY to deal damage too it, while it just Swords Dances up and then passes to the force that is Groudon.
 
I understand that Mew is a potent threat even in the Ubers metagame, Gen. Empoleon. I don't know why you even bothered making that post.

I'm not saying that they are completely vulnerable and beatable, but it is hard to deny the fact that Baton Pass has taken huge steps back in D/P. Between all of the priority moves, the new high-powered moves because of the physical/special splits, etc, it is much harder than it looks.

If this thread is specifically about Ubers, then yeah Mew is pretty great. It is still beatable though.

Oh and about Tay's point about "forcing you to carry a counter for something that shouldnt exist", apparently you've never heard of "the element of surprise"? The fact that OTHER things force you to carry a counter is what causes this problem, it is perfectly legitimate to take advantage of your opponent's lack of preparation. Also, who are you to determine what should and should not exist? lol
 
Baton pass only works because it's an uncommon threat, phasing moves are uncommon nowadays simply because often times you can't afford to take a hit in order to use it, and taunt really ruins all attempts at a phase anyways.

Taunt improvements are really the only thing that took baton pass from a mediocre noobish strategy in R/S/E to a competitively viable one in D/P/P. Without them it just wasn't worth the slot and a well placed phase or haze would just ruin your team. But I must reiterate, if your opponent is prepared for a baton pass team (often not the case due to it being uncommon), he will stomp you, unquestionably.

The ubers mew team is a bit of a different situation but I have to say, it's a ban tier, it's not meant to be balanced.
 
what baton pass can do is open up certain pokes that otherwise would be just off, pass a speed boost to porygon-z it can sweep for example.
smeargle can pass ingrain with ruins roar no end but requires a full chain to work, nothing wrong with using it, just that people want to set up on turn one with all these suicide leads, it gives them something to think about.
 
You don't need any real "skill" to use BP Mew teams, it's hard to stop and it's extremely effective. Someone can just copy one and win, then more people copy him, and then everyone will be using BP Mew teams in Ube- oh wait that's already happening. That's why I, personally, look down at them.
 
Actually when you think about it there are quite a bit of stuff that stops a BP Mew team
- Rapid Spin can go early game and can mess up damage calculations
- Brick Break ruins screens, which are essential to Mew's passing
- Explosion from Metagross can severely dent Mew, and you might be able to pick off Mew's remainings before it passes
- Correctly predicting when Mew will appear and acting to stop it works as well. Specs Oggre can do this well, as well as any Taunt user faster than Mew (in Specs Ogre's case, they qwill only be able to pull of a Rock Polish and Pass, but from there it shouldn't be to hard to stop when the recipient doesn't have any offensive boosts.
- TrickScarf Deoxys-S/A can completely destroy BP Mew even if it switches in on a favorable position beforehand. Trick mewtwo/Darkrai can work too, but beware as Mew can EV itself to be faster than both of them after a Polish.
- Trick Room might do something against Mew BP teams, if set up successfully.
- There's probably more but I'll stop here (don't say Punishment)
 
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