@NOVED?! You think this discussion is harmful -that- much? Well you know I love Machamp either way, I just think obscure or unusual decisions aren't necessarily bad just because they seem weak mathematically. Just as a quick mention, when you do run No Guard Machamp, you'll probably want Status protection with Safeguard, Lum Berry, etc, and OHKO protection with Sturdy. People still like using Sheer Cold Lapras, even with the Penagon rule. Glare Shuffle with stuff like Serperior and erm... Arbok, (lol yeah, not popular, but better against fairies right?) would help a lot for Parafusion.
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Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings
- Thread starter NOVED
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It's just that talking about the Guts set will only alter people's perception of Machamp. Actually good no guard sets are probably around at least B- imo. While if it were to be ranked based solely on the Guts set, it'd probably be around like C or C-. There's no point in talking about the worse sets.
And if Arbok is being brought up in a viability discussion, there's something terribly wrong.. You're really losing me at this point.
Already tried Arbok; it's surprsingly good all things considered, as Glare + intimidate alone fucks up a lot of shit, but really it's very bad and I don't suggest using it or ranking it. Ever.
I've already said my piece on Guts Champ, No Guard is better / what it should be doing 90% of the time / is actually good.
I have to ask though; what makes Mega Scizor such a higher rating, the bulk?
I've already said my piece on Guts Champ, No Guard is better / what it should be doing 90% of the time / is actually good.
I have to ask though; what makes Mega Scizor such a higher rating, the bulk?
I'm going to have to stop the current discussion of Machamp right now. PumpedAaron - your personal bias for Machamp is clouding your judgement, just because you like a Pokemon does not make it good. I have several problems with your original post which I'll describe below:
Usage; Machamp has sat around 90-100+ for a long time now. That means there's already at least 90 Pokemon which are deemed "more viable" by the people playing the metagame. I would definitely like to knock out those before ever looking at Machamp (which we won't, a viability list with that many Pokemon is a bad list).
Top teams; I have literally never seen a top rating (1900+) team use Machamp. I've seen some weird shit on some of those teams, stuff who's overall usage is even lower than Machamp's, which made me think "hey maybe we should discuss the viability of ____ since someone did good with it" but I haven't. I have however seen many teams with either a Conkeldurr or Heracross on them. If good players aren't using it, is it really that viable?
Competition; why use Machamp at all when you can use Blaziken, Heracross, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, Scrafty, or even Infernape? I'll tell you the one thing Machamp has over them; Dynamic Punch! It just depends on how good we think Dynamic Punch is when there are numerous good Swagger users. What does Dynamic Punch beat? Why do you wanna use it? But, (more importantly considering Machamp's niche status) what is the opportunity cost of using Machamp over another (better) Fighting-type. If it's too much it means that Machamp is flat out unviable...
I don't think Machamp is good. It could maybe be C range but low at that, probably C- if I'm being generous.
- You did not suggest where Machamp should be ranked, just that you though it was good and that it should be. Going by your colourful description it's like you're painting it to be an S-tier nomination. You need to be clear and mention a specific rank for your nomination to be considered.
- This is not a healthy discussion because you get offended every time someone disagrees with you, and you're not willing to see the argument from both sides. Again, you personal bias is getting in the way. You take it personally, like we're having a go at you, rather than trying to see the logic of our replies. You're grasping onto any post that somewhat agrees with you and running with it, and disregarding any actual constructive reply. This leads to people straight up ignoring you.
- Your nomination for Machamp is based on a set which pales in comparison to its most used (and what we firmly believe to be the best) set. This reminds me of the Noivern discussion we had a while back. Noivern's niche is scouting with Frisk and screwing up stuff with Switcheroo, but we were discussing some weird Infiltrator + Life Orb set that didn't make sense. Machamp's niche / role in he metagame is abusing Dynamic Punch. Yes, it can use Guts and surprise people, but there are a) other Pokemon that do that which outclass it, and b) isn't why you want to use Machamp in the first place. Firsr, just name one other Pokemon that can do what Machamp does...
- One single replay against a low ranked opponent as evidence of your nomination borderlines trolling in my eyes. Hey, maybe I'll go find that one replay where they didn't have something that hit Shedinja super-effectively, that thing must be sick..!! (hint, it isn't)
Usage; Machamp has sat around 90-100+ for a long time now. That means there's already at least 90 Pokemon which are deemed "more viable" by the people playing the metagame. I would definitely like to knock out those before ever looking at Machamp (which we won't, a viability list with that many Pokemon is a bad list).
Top teams; I have literally never seen a top rating (1900+) team use Machamp. I've seen some weird shit on some of those teams, stuff who's overall usage is even lower than Machamp's, which made me think "hey maybe we should discuss the viability of ____ since someone did good with it" but I haven't. I have however seen many teams with either a Conkeldurr or Heracross on them. If good players aren't using it, is it really that viable?
Competition; why use Machamp at all when you can use Blaziken, Heracross, Lucario, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, Scrafty, or even Infernape? I'll tell you the one thing Machamp has over them; Dynamic Punch! It just depends on how good we think Dynamic Punch is when there are numerous good Swagger users. What does Dynamic Punch beat? Why do you wanna use it? But, (more importantly considering Machamp's niche status) what is the opportunity cost of using Machamp over another (better) Fighting-type. If it's too much it means that Machamp is flat out unviable...
I don't think Machamp is good. It could maybe be C range but low at that, probably C- if I'm being generous.
Honestly Cant Say, I didn't feel offended at first, but you always seem to argue with me more than any of the other staff members :/. Why do you do that? Among all the staff members you obviously have the most fiercely negative opinion about me! Look around at all of the other posts. They may have had their disagreements, but they didn't say personal things such as I'm opinionated or that I have "clouded judgement" don't you think that's a little too personal? Why exactly are you going to all these great lengths to single me out, specifically? Even if you disagree with me, I'd personally prefer if you were a little more polite about it. Don't just throw all this data in my face and expect me to believe it. Even if your logic is sound and your arguments are good, you aren't really doing much to convince -me- personally that you've grasped onto a solid way of thinking. If Machamp is so horribly unviable why did he get a solid show at VGC last year? That's a different meta, of course, but I'm trying to illustrate a point here: I think your way of thinking is a little too stiff. You only consider teams approaching 2000's a top team? You think Machamp is generally worse than all those other fighting types?
If you really think all that logic and data is gonna help you in a real Pokemon battle, that's all fine and dandy, but why do you insist on trying to enforce that way of thinking onto the community as a whole? Honestly Cant Say, I'm offended at you, but I'm not offended at everyone else I was debating with.
Again, you've ignored every single constructive argument that I made and took it as a personal attack. I'm not interested in talking about it anymore if you're going to behave like this, it's not worth my time and you don't seem to be interested in an opinion that differs from yours.
Aaron lets put it like this, you should probably be happy that Machamp is getting ranked by others here. Many people's thoughts differ from yours and won't agree with your decision depending on what you discuss. We've also said everything upon convincing you for almost 2 pages now and I don't know what more to do because it's there in your face. If you see multiple people thinking the opposite of what you think and has facts/evidence to prove it. Why is Conkeldurr and other Fighting-types at a higher usage than Machamp in Battle Spot Singles? Why is Conkeldurr OU and Machamp stuck in UU? Why is Conkeldurr in a much higher rank than Machamp in VGC? Because you know there's evidence behind it and that means people prefer upon using Conkeldurr and that it's more useful over Machamp due to its qualities we stated during this entire debate.
I'm not trying to sound harsh here but you really need to face the facts we give or that you see from other sites and threads with Conkeldurr outclassing/being above Machamp because there's always reasons behind it.
I don't intend on convincing anymore because people have different opinions on things.
Don't know what more you want us to say to you and I think this discussion should be moved on from here.
Lets all just get off the Machamp subject now before this is dragged on. It's not going anywhere.
I'm not trying to sound harsh here but you really need to face the facts we give or that you see from other sites and threads with Conkeldurr outclassing/being above Machamp because there's always reasons behind it.
I don't intend on convincing anymore because people have different opinions on things.
Don't know what more you want us to say to you and I think this discussion should be moved on from here.
Lets all just get off the Machamp subject now before this is dragged on. It's not going anywhere.
Okay, I have an idea: Yanmega to C. Its two abilities are both p good, making it a wallbreaker with Choice Specs and Tinted Lens or a sweeper with Life Orb and Speed Boost. That said, it faces a lot of competition, but I think the unpredictability makes it usable. What are your thoughts?
Looking at Yanmega's moves, it only really has Bug Buzz, Air Slash, and Hypnosis for good moves. Coverage moves are fairly weak and completely unnecessary with Tinted Lens, and Yanmega is too frail to really use Roost, Struggle Bug, or Whirlwind. Well, I guess there's Giga Drain, for Swampert mainly.
86/86/56 bulk isn't all that good, and base 95 Spe is sub optimal for something that has to be fast. It's plenty for a Speed Boost set, but Yan lacks Baton Pass, so such a set would be forced out by something like Aegi.
116 SpA is good, but other stuff has better SpA, notably Togekiss which has a 60% chance to flinch with Air Slash instead and is B-, only one place above the rank you've proposed for Yan. Vivillon is another important mob. You can't have Yan in the same rank, since Vivillon is mostly better. An accurate Sleep Powder instead of a 60% chance with Hypnosis, an accurate Hurricane instead of Air Slash, and QD to make it faster and stronger than Yan. It's physical bulk is quite a bit worse, but it's special bulk is actually not that much lower. 80/50 vs 86/56
Yan is also completely ruined by Thund, Suicune, Talon, most Garchomp, Rock Slide Kangaskhan, Zapdos, Megamence, etc. some of those not with flinch hax, but we've discussed Togekiss is bettr for that.. Yan is also only mediocre at best against Gengar, Aegi, sash Breloom that don't flinch, etc. even stuff it seems like it's beat such as Slowbro can win with the right set, and Blaziken beats Tinted Lens Yan.
I say keep it unranked.
Based on Usage Stats here's what I'd expect Yanmega's standard set to be:
Yanmega @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Ancient Power / Giga Drain
- Detect
Tinted Lens sits at 5% usage, meaning it's most likely not viable.
When checking the "Opponents when Victorious" you'll notice the three big 4x Ice weak Pokemon (Garchomp, Mega Salamence, and Landorus-T) are all right at the top. Which makes sense given that Yanmega can theoretically beat all three of them with a cycle or two of Detect + Attack; even ones with Choice Scarf or Focus Sash should Yanmega use a Focus Sash itself to buy an extra turn (assuming the foe doesn't use Rock Tomb). After that there's Talonflame, because of Focus Sash + Ancient Power presumably, and then Heracross and Blaziken.
While on paper Yanmega does seem to have a degree of consistency in the foes it's able to eliminate, it does so single-mindedly. There are so many common Pokemon that it loses to, that you're giving up a lot for it to accomplish its task. This isn't necessary when there are Pokemon such as Cresselia which can defeat the same foes mentioned above (bar maybe Heracross) without compromising your team's match-up against the remainder of the metagame.
I therefore consider Yanmega to be outclassed and don't believe it should be ranked.
Yanmega @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Ancient Power / Giga Drain
- Detect
Tinted Lens sits at 5% usage, meaning it's most likely not viable.
When checking the "Opponents when Victorious" you'll notice the three big 4x Ice weak Pokemon (Garchomp, Mega Salamence, and Landorus-T) are all right at the top. Which makes sense given that Yanmega can theoretically beat all three of them with a cycle or two of Detect + Attack; even ones with Choice Scarf or Focus Sash should Yanmega use a Focus Sash itself to buy an extra turn (assuming the foe doesn't use Rock Tomb). After that there's Talonflame, because of Focus Sash + Ancient Power presumably, and then Heracross and Blaziken.
While on paper Yanmega does seem to have a degree of consistency in the foes it's able to eliminate, it does so single-mindedly. There are so many common Pokemon that it loses to, that you're giving up a lot for it to accomplish its task. This isn't necessary when there are Pokemon such as Cresselia which can defeat the same foes mentioned above (bar maybe Heracross) without compromising your team's match-up against the remainder of the metagame.
I therefore consider Yanmega to be outclassed and don't believe it should be ranked.
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Alright alright, time for us to put it to bed.
You're right, I'm not anywhere near as equipped to translate my personal experiences into credible reasoning the way you are cant say. Although I have personally experienced a lot of success with Machamp, that doesn't necessarily translate into a high viability ranking. Pokemon scoring high in viability ranking are all-around strong, with inherent benefits that come at little cost, all by that Pokemon itself and Machamp obviously has serious weaknesses. As long as I lack a less vague way to put it into words, or high-enough replays and other examples to back it up, I really can't argue with you, cant say. As a lover of Machamp, I feel pretty sad about him not being in the viability ranks at all, but I suppose C is a good start. It just seems suspicious to me how similar Conk and Champ are in their team roles, yet are often judged pretty far apart in terms of viability. I guess non-rest recovery really is a big deal. Machamp always requires extra team support, like speed control, Wish, screens etc....
You're right, I'm not anywhere near as equipped to translate my personal experiences into credible reasoning the way you are cant say. Although I have personally experienced a lot of success with Machamp, that doesn't necessarily translate into a high viability ranking. Pokemon scoring high in viability ranking are all-around strong, with inherent benefits that come at little cost, all by that Pokemon itself and Machamp obviously has serious weaknesses. As long as I lack a less vague way to put it into words, or high-enough replays and other examples to back it up, I really can't argue with you, cant say. As a lover of Machamp, I feel pretty sad about him not being in the viability ranks at all, but I suppose C is a good start. It just seems suspicious to me how similar Conk and Champ are in their team roles, yet are often judged pretty far apart in terms of viability. I guess non-rest recovery really is a big deal. Machamp always requires extra team support, like speed control, Wish, screens etc....
We literally just did and you brought it up again :(
But anyway, yeah Yanmega probably shouldn't be ranked. Me and ethan06 were theorymonning this one time just to lure stuff, so yeah.
Yeah, it was briefly mentioned just before the whole Machamp fiasco started. I think it's a solid C+ or B-.
I think we should send Bisharp to B- or lower. It doesn't have a whole lot to offer compared to other Steel-types; 73rd in usage is pretty low.
Might Talonflame merit rank S? Like most of the rest of the S tier, it has multiple viable builds (especially with the recent rise of SpDef builds). It's threatening and common enough to force any competive team to have at least one strong check. Some version of Talonflame is likely to be good on almost any team unless its inclusion would stack too many weaknesses. That's honestly its biggest drawback - the relatively high number of other strong Fire- and Flying-types, and as a result answers to those. Even so, Talonflame is everywhere (#4 in usage in S15) and strong, and doesn't even use a mega spot.
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Seconding Talon to S. Compare it to Kang: it's got very few checks, sweeps unprepared teams, high usage, and shapes the metagame around itself.
Lol, I was just thinking about Bisharp. B- is prolly fair, and I wouldn't be opposed to dropping it even further. It has a rotten typing, and Defiant is less use in Singles, tho it's still fairly good. A limited movepool and bad SpD and Spe really hurt it, and said low special bulk means it's not good at fishing with Guillotine, and with no recovery and very low SpA there's no chance for Snarl to be successful in Singles.
However, I do agree it should retain a fairly decent rank. A good base 125 Atk and reasonable 65/100 physical bulk. Not too many weaknesses on the special side partially make up for low special bulk, and it can have AV to be bettr. SD and Taunt put extra pressure on opponents, and it even has t-wave. Sounds like B- IMO.
I disagree with you on Talon being S rank. Obviously it's a good mon, but a very limited movepool and a questionable typing mean it's pretty easy to prepare for. Rotoms H and W, Manectric, Slowbro, Suicune, Thund(!), etc.
As everyone knows, Talon's stats except Spe are quite underwhelming. This means it can't be terribly bulky, and it's easy enough for most things to take a hit if they're not weak to anything.
And, not to be rude, but 6tennis, what do you mean Talon has few checks? It not only has checks, but numerous COUNTERS that are fairly common(more than just fairly in the case of Rotom-W.)
EDIT: Was looking for stuff that might be missing from here, and I've found Krookodile. Is not terribly common, #85 in usage, but when you consider that Kabutops is #201 but still ranked that doesn't seem so bad.
Krookodile has a good base 117 Atk, an ok 92 Spe, and reasonable 95/80/70 bulk backed by Intimidate. Dark/ Ground STABs seem fairly good, and it has a reasonable movepool with stuff like Fire Fang, Superpower, Rock Slide, and Counter. It can also set Stealth Rock, tho that's not so important.
It's typing leaves it with plenty of weaknesses, but considering it's good abilities, reasonable usage, and the fact it doesn't flat out lose to anything in the S tier I think it should be ranked. Nothing huge, C- would prolly be plenty.
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I do not even have trick room on reuniclus. It gets it viability from complete other things like bulk offenses and a great ability that really goes well along with the bulk and offense it has and can run life orb without damage.
Why isn't Klefki ranked higher than B+? Swagplay is likely to grant a generous amount of free turns. Is it because it isn't consistent enough (even though most of the time you'll have extra turns)?
That's basically why, SwagPlay Klefki isn't really that good on its own because it's really risky and inconsistent which is trickier in 3v3, one turn could be all they need and now suddenly you're down one Pokemon too early. There's also several Lum Berry users that can just ruin your day (Garchomp, Talonflame, Volcarona). The turns it creates are usually used hoping the opponent hits itself and takes itself out while hiding behind a Substitute constantly, in which case you aren't creating that many free turns, and if you switch out into a partner to abuse the free turns they might break through and now you can't really take advantage of the turns or Swagger them again.
SwagPlay Klefki is good, it's just shaky and not always going to give you tons of free turns. Sometimes it's amazing and sometimes it's complete deadweight and you don't have much control over it, unless you're running like a Glalie team which is built around abusing that. It also competes with SwagPlay Thundurus which has the benefit of checking Talonflame and having consistent offensive presence beyond just Swaggering stuff, while of course being more versatile in general.
I think Feraligatr should go down to C+
For starters its only #193 in usage, lower than plenty of stuff that's not ranked, and many things that will probably never get ranked. So clearly people don't even like it that much.
Feraligatr has quite a bit of power and good bulk, but it's bulk is hindered by an ability that provides nothing defensively(unlike both mega and regular Gyara, which seem like better DDers,) and it still can't take powerful attacks like max Atk Megamence's DE without investment(it has a small chance but that doesn't count for much.) it also still can't break common defensive mons like Cress and Suicune, and needs to be at least +2 Atk and Adamant to beat even the frailest of Rotom-Ws with Superpower-Crunch won't do it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 159-190 (80.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Another example of where Feraligatr's power fails. Heatran won't do too much back, but this is more an example of lacking power, and Heatran can do quite a bit with its high powered moves or put non Lum Fera with on a timer with Fera.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 161-190 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Feraligatr also does quite bad vs Aegi, definitely activating WP with Crunch if it isn't at least +2(and having a chance to even then,) and easily dying to +2 Shadow Ball with any halfway reasonable EV spread. Without Crunch or EQ(only 6.28% even run EQ) it can't 2hko unboosted, and it only has a 37.5% chance to OHKO with Waterfall at +3 Atk with max atk(and that's a standard 252/0 Aegi. The physically defensive one suggested by ethan06 in the Create a team thread has a 25% chance to live even +5 Atk Waterfall.)
Fera doesn't seem bad to me, but at the very least seems outclassed. Kinda like some other C+ stuff like Espeon.
For starters its only #193 in usage, lower than plenty of stuff that's not ranked, and many things that will probably never get ranked. So clearly people don't even like it that much.
Feraligatr has quite a bit of power and good bulk, but it's bulk is hindered by an ability that provides nothing defensively(unlike both mega and regular Gyara, which seem like better DDers,) and it still can't take powerful attacks like max Atk Megamence's DE without investment(it has a small chance but that doesn't count for much.) it also still can't break common defensive mons like Cress and Suicune, and needs to be at least +2 Atk and Adamant to beat even the frailest of Rotom-Ws with Superpower-Crunch won't do it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 159-190 (80.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Another example of where Feraligatr's power fails. Heatran won't do too much back, but this is more an example of lacking power, and Heatran can do quite a bit with its high powered moves or put non Lum Fera with on a timer with Fera.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 161-190 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Feraligatr also does quite bad vs Aegi, definitely activating WP with Crunch if it isn't at least +2(and having a chance to even then,) and easily dying to +2 Shadow Ball with any halfway reasonable EV spread. Without Crunch or EQ(only 6.28% even run EQ) it can't 2hko unboosted, and it only has a 37.5% chance to OHKO with Waterfall at +3 Atk with max atk(and that's a standard 252/0 Aegi. The physically defensive one suggested by ethan06 in the Create a team thread has a 25% chance to live even +5 Atk Waterfall.)
Fera doesn't seem bad to me, but at the very least seems outclassed. Kinda like some other C+ stuff like Espeon.
I'm definitely not the most qualified to comment on this, but it looks like you forgot to factor in Sheer Force (which over 95% of Feraligatr have) when doing your calcs.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 205-244 (103.5 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 104-125 (62.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (93.4 - 110.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
And an additional calc against Cressilia:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 140-166 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 205-244 (103.5 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 104-125 (62.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-185 (93.4 - 110.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
And an additional calc against Cressilia:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 140-166 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lol, that's weird. I just clicked on the calc set. Made sure item and EVs were in order, but didn't look at the ability since I was positive it'd be SF. I mean the set is called "common showdown" and SF is clearly common. I'll have to be warier using the calc from now on lol.
So with this new information I think Fera is ok where it's ranked, despite very low usage
The 'Common Showdown' part of the calc is Common Showdown from VGC15, it's outdated and for doubles. You should try to avoid it most of the time.
"BSS calc by cant say" stuff is misleading XD. Yea, I'll have to pay ,ore attention
