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Battle Spot Teambuilding Discussion & Help Thread (read post #453, page 19)

That seems like a great idea-I've grown too attached to Mega Venu to consider replacing it, so it's good someone thought of a replacement for me. One big problem I've had with Hera is Aegislash, which it can barely scratch bar like 2 SD boosts. Trick Room Cress could be interesting, should I use a Brave Hera then? I made this crazy EV spread for an Adamant Heracross, and one thing it does is outspeed 4 Spe base 80s, but it's fine to move that Spe to defenses and go Brave. TR also makes me want to do Freeze-Dry on Mamo even more, as I would have one opportunity for it to benefit me(TR,) and one for it not too matter(T-Wave.)

I know we're not supposed to do full teams, but before I read your advice I added Rotom-W to the team above. Is that worse than what you're suggesting? Also removed Ice Punch on Kang for Rock Slide, particularly if I have Rotom-W I don't need that extra ice coverage. Sine Rotom-W does T-Wave too, I was thinking(again) of Brave on Mamo. I can try both teams and see what sticks, I guess.
 
The problem with going brave is that you will always need TR to function but if you feel its not such a problem then you should try it. As for rotom-wash, I don't think it works since you already have thundurus but you could try it. Just try both and see which one works better for you.
 
Might I suggest a more optimized spread for the Heracross?

Name: All-Out Attacker
Move 1: Pin Missile
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: Rock Blast
Move 4: Bullet Seed
Item: Heracronite
Ability: Guts
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 162 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe

Since you already have Mamo, I don't think you'll need EQ on your Hera.
 
Might I suggest a more optimized spread for the Heracross?

Name: All-Out Attacker
Move 1: Pin Missile
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: Rock Blast
Move 4: Bullet Seed
Item: Heracronite
Ability: Guts
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 162 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe

Since you already have Mamo, I don't think you'll need EQ on your Hera.
You only have 506 evs so you can put another 2 into hp for an extra point.
 
Might I suggest a more optimized spread for the Heracross?

Name: All-Out Attacker
Move 1: Pin Missile
Move 2: Close Combat
Move 3: Rock Blast
Move 4: Bullet Seed
Item: Heracronite
Ability: Guts
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 162 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe

Since you already have Mamo, I don't think you'll need EQ on your Hera.

CIs outspeeding 4 Speed base 85s that important? I guess there's Suicune, so I'll use that spread.
 
Cresselia is the big one to worry about here, strictly because then Mega Heracross can OHKO some variants with Pin Missile.

Some variants? Isn't there pretty much just one? I was running 36 Atk w/ an Adamant nature, so I couldn't KO Cress from full, but I don't need to run calcs to know. 252+Atk has a chance to OHKO.
 
Some variants? Isn't there pretty much just one? I was running 36 Atk w/ an Adamant nature, so I couldn't KO Cress from full, but I don't need to run calcs to know. 252+Atk has a chance to OHKO.
I was referring to some people running SpDef or even mixed Def Cresselia. I've even seen offensive Cress. Not that it's a good set or anything.
 
I was referring to some people running SpDef or even mixed Def Cresselia. I've even seen offensive Cress. Not that it's a good set or anything.

A TrickSpecs set got me one time, and it's not like running more than 4 SpD is that unreasonable. Not sure why anyone would go fully specieally defensive in a physically dominant meta that has a Gengar, but I guess it's a thing.

EDIT: Didn't notice earlier, but you have Guts as the ability. Isn't Moxie completely superior, as even burned Hera would rather go mega for the giant boost to Atk and Skill Link.
 
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A TrickSpecs set got me one time, and it's not like running more than 4 SpD is that unreasonable. Not sure why anyone would go fully specieally defensive in a physically dominant meta that has a Gengar, but I guess it's a thing.

EDIT: Didn't notice earlier, but you have Guts as the ability. Isn't Moxie completely superior, as even burned Hera would rather go mega for the giant boost to Atk and Skill Link.

No. If you get burned you can choose not to mega and benefit hugely from Guts, otherwise you've got a crippled Mega Hera. You may not get the 5 hits you want on those moves, but it really helps with Close Combat
 
No. If you get burned you can choose not to mega and benefit hugely from Guts, otherwise you've got a crippled Mega Hera. You may not get the 5 hits you want on those moves, but it really helps with Close Combat

Seems kinda odd to me w/ three multi hit moves, but okay. Does that mean Guts>Moxie or that you can use either? Regardless, I've been having more success w/ Mega Venu on my team.

I've switched between them and I think Venu does better usually. When my Megas are Kang and Hera I notice I often bring Kang and rarely Hera, since there are just so many Talons, and other flying types besides like Megamence. My Kang can't deal w/ Aegi either(though Venu actually kind of can, so long as it's not boosted. If it lacks WP, Venu only fears a crit.) When my Megas are Kang and Venu, I find myself bringing Venu more often since so many things are meant to check Kang, and there are some pesky fighting types that outspeed and OHKO that Venu doesn't care about in the least. I guess maybe it's my Benusaur's set I should be asking for help on.

Venusaur@Venusaurite
Ability; Chlorophyll<--Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP/ 220 Def/ 36 SpA
Relaxed Nature
-Earthquake
-Sludge Bomb
-Leech Seed
-Synthesis

Is this a reasonable set for Venusaur? It's worked quite well for me, but the fact that so few Venu run a Relaxed nature, and that most don't run EQ, makes me wonder. The EVs were originally to make 244+Atk Talon's have a very low chance to OHKO(6.3%)-running extra defense to make it never OHKO isn't really worth it, especially as it doesn't help w/ much else. Since I pretty much never see CB Talon, I checked the EVs more thoroughly and they seem pretty good.

Kang's DE is a 2HKO, even if it's Adamant. 0 Atk Talonflame only 3HKOs w/ BB, so it dies to that recoil plus a few sludge Bombs, and I may be able to predict a Roost too. Since Talon will likely expect a switch or a Sludge Bomb, I'm likely to get a Leech Seed on it since it won't Taunt. Garchomp's EQ is only a 3HKO(meaning it'll never OHKO w/o SD,) so I just plant a Leech Seed then switch. There are some other things, but the gist of it is that defensive investment seems sufficient but not overkill.

Those other 36 EVs are a bit odd. I could maybe put some in speed, or even SpD, since they seem to do nothing much in either attacking star. EQ is a 2 or 3HKO on all its targets regardless of if I have 0 or 36 Atk EVs(and even chances for those KOs don't matter-it's a clean 2HKO on Gengar and Heatran, for instance,) and Sludge Bomb is in much the same boat. I don't know how useful SpD investment would be sine special attackers are either gonna run through Venu anyways(Specs Heatran, Alakazam, Latis, Reuniclus, etc.,) or be fairly unthreatening in general(Rotom-W, Gengar that isn't behind a sub or knows WoW, Thundy lacking Psychic, etc.)
 
I've switched between them and I think Venu does better usually. When my Megas are Kang and Hera I notice I often bring Kang and rarely Hera, since there are just so many Talons, and other flying types besides like Megamence. My Kang can't deal w/ Aegi either(though Venu actually kind of can, so long as it's not boosted. If it lacks WP, Venu only fears a crit.) When my Megas are Kang and Venu, I find myself bringing Venu more often since so many things are meant to check Kang, and there are some pesky fighting types that outspeed and OHKO that Venu doesn't care about in the least. I guess maybe it's my Benusaur's set I should be asking for help on.

Venusaur@Venusaurite
Ability; Chlorophyll<--Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP/ 220 Def/ 36 SpA
Relaxed Nature
-Earthquake
-Sludge Bomb
-Leech Seed
-Synthesis

Is this a reasonable set for Venusaur? It's worked quite well for me, but the fact that so few Venu run a Relaxed nature, and that most don't run EQ, makes me wonder. The EVs were originally to make 244+Atk Talon's have a very low chance to OHKO(6.3%)-running extra defense to make it never OHKO isn't really worth it, especially as it doesn't help w/ much else. Since I pretty much never see CB Talon, I checked the EVs more thoroughly and they seem pretty good.

Kang's DE is a 2HKO, even if it's Adamant. 0 Atk Talonflame only 3HKOs w/ BB, so it dies to that recoil plus a few sludge Bombs, and I may be able to predict a Roost too. Since Talon will likely expect a switch or a Sludge Bomb, I'm likely to get a Leech Seed on it since it won't Taunt. Garchomp's EQ is only a 3HKO(meaning it'll never OHKO w/o SD,) so I just plant a Leech Seed then switch. There are some other things, but the gist of it is that defensive investment seems sufficient but not overkill.

Those other 36 EVs are a bit odd. I could maybe put some in speed, or even SpD, since they seem to do nothing much in either attacking star. EQ is a 2 or 3HKO on all its targets regardless of if I have 0 or 36 Atk EVs(and even chances for those KOs don't matter-it's a clean 2HKO on Gengar and Heatran, for instance,) and Sludge Bomb is in much the same boat. I don't know how useful SpD investment would be sine special attackers are either gonna run through Venu anyways(Specs Heatran, Alakazam, Latis, Reuniclus, etc.,) or be fairly unthreatening in general(Rotom-W, Gengar that isn't behind a sub or knows WoW, Thundy lacking Psychic, etc.)

I don't think it is really worth it running earthquake over giga drain just for heatran and gengar. Actually, when I think about it, even with EQ venusaur doesn't beat gengar. Gengar can easily wisp venusaur or choose not to mega evolve once it sees you have EQ. Also, after getting burned, EQ is a 4hko on mega gengar which makes me think its just pointless. I think you should stick to having giga drain since it checks some other threats quite reliably such as suicune, rotom-w, azumarill, landorus etc.
 
This seems odd to me, as Choice Band Talonflame is the highest used item on Talonflame, and arguably one of the best.

Maybe it's a PS thing. Most Talon I see are defensive, but it might just be that those are the ones on the teams I tend to battle, even if they're not the most common variant.

I don't think it is really worth it running earthquake over giga drain just for heatran and gengar. Actually, when I think about it, even with EQ venusaur doesn't beat gengar. Gengar can easily wisp venusaur or choose not to mega evolve once it sees you have EQ. Also, after getting burned, EQ is a 4hko on mega gengar which makes me think its just pointless. I think you should stick to having giga drain since it checks some other threats quite reliably such as suicune, rotom-w, azumarill, landorus etc.

EQ has been really good for me. Those two are pretty big targets for EQ, but there's lots of other stuff that it hits hard too, like TTar, Mega Manectric, Mega Mawile, Tyrantrum(I've seen a few, actually,) Excadrill, Magnezone, Dragalge(which Venu can't touch w/ anything else bar Outrage, which is a bad move,) and a few other things. It's also the strongest move on a lot of steels that'd take way less from Giga Drain like Scizor and Ferrothorn. That said I wouldn't be asking for opinions on it if I thought it was perfect. EQ is not strong off an uninvested base 100 Atk, and pretty much any two moves, especially when one or more of them has a type immune to it, have things they can't touch.

For my Venu this is Skarmory(HP Fire is its only answer to this one,) Crobat(Pretty much gets you unless you're something odd like a Curse set w/ Knock Off,) Levitate Bronzong(not sure I ever see Nronzong, but in order to be a halfway reliable answer to it, Venu needs either both HP Fire and EQ, or Knock Off,) and Wisp Gengar(I'll usually throw a Leech Seed at it to start, though it depends. This is another thing that sorta troubles my current coverage that Giga Drain wouldn't help w/ at all.)

I've had great success in the past w/ Sleep Powder>Synthesis, though Leech Seed isn't really enough recovery on its own, which is why I added Synthesis. Putting Sleep Powder over EQ and running a Bold nature, mono poison coverage has issues, particularly on lots of the stuff EQ hits like Tran, TTar, Mega Gengar, and Raiokou. AV Goodra can be poisoned, so I guess at one isn't really a problem, though that's debatable.

I've also considered dropping Leech Seed for HP Fire. While the coverage is pretty good(still far from perfect though,) the power isn't and Leech Seed has tons of utility, especially vs Cress(particularly ones w/ Psychic, as I can't just fish for poison w/ SB as easily,) and Suicune(which takes a pittance from EQ and any special attacker Venu can use except maybe Leaf Storm after a Calm Mind. It can also heal off poison w/ Rest.) Giga Drain doesn't seem to add much. Suicune still can set up on me, Azumarill is 2HKOd by SB anyways(GG adds security vs Azu at +6, but ore wise it's not necessary to win,) and Rotom-W already loses. It has utility for ore bulky waters like Mega Swampy and Mega Slobro, and Venu deals better w/ them than AV Freeze-Dry Mamo(FD's targets tend to be physical waters that are immune to T-Wave, so thinking of dropping that and going Adamant Icicle Spear.)

Other options like SD and Curse are pretty gimmicky, as even though Venu walls a crazy number of Pokses, there are also many that force it out like Talon, Megamence, Noivern, and Togekiss.

I'm also thinking of dropping Kang since it adds no defensive utility(really don't benefit from the ghost immunity at all.) I'm not sold on the idea since Kang is just such a good Pokemon. I got rid of EQ for PuP, so now it can't do anything to Aegi bar Rock Slide, which essentially does nothing. It still beats Excadrill even w/o EQ cause I run Counter, so any Exca that does 25% or more damage but doesn't OHKO will be OHKOd. Another problem is status. My team is actually not the most status weak, except for Kang, which attracts burns and T-Waves. Probably will drop DE for Facade if I don't get rid of Kang altogether.

For a replacement mega I'd want something that can outspeed and OHKO Kang, beats Aegi, and can handle Exca. Preferably I'd want something that can switch in on at least one of them. My ideal mega would be a fast ghost fighting type, but since there's no such thing I've been thinking of Gallade, Lopunny, and Mega Sableye.

Gallade OHKOs Kang while outspeeding, and I'm sure it can survive even an Adamant Fake Out followed by a Sucker Punch. It has Leaf Bladefor Rotom-W, which s a Poke I dislike, even if it doesn't necessarily run through my whole team. It also has a giant number of really good moves like Destiny Vond, Encore, Thunder Wave, Swords Dance, Memento, and other coverage moves. Useless ability really hurts it though(except vs Kang's Fake Out, which I dodnt think about earlier.)

Lopunny excels against all three Pokes I mentioned, can switch in on rock moves, and has a great movepool and much better ability than Gallade. Compounds my moderate weakness to Talon, but I have Thundy to revenge that thing, and Venu beats bulky variants while still leaving a mark on CB ones.

Meg a Sableye definitely doesn't outspeed or KO Kang, but it has a useful ability before and after mega evolving, compound no weaknesses, and can switch in w/ impunity vs Kang, one of the few to do so. Aegi loses to it in most situations, though Exca is a problem if I don't run WoW(which I'm thinking of doing cause Talon already uses WoW and I have two T-Wave users.) I could maybe do a standard Calm Mind set w/ Metal Burst or a secondary coverage move over WoW. Foul Play works nice w/ two SwagPlay users, and since I have stuff that Swaggers e foe I wouldn't need to run Swagger in Sab. I'd have to run some speed to outspeed most paralyzed stuff, though, since M Sab's speed is an atrocious base 20.
 
The sooner you realise that Pokemon have roles in a team rather than each one needing to check everything in the metagame on their own, the sooner you'll get better. You're thinking too much and trying to cover too much with so few Pokemon that their utility is being severely stretched out so they're not actually that good at any one thing. Every Pokemon has checks/counters, so instead of trying to make sure each of your Pokemon has some niche move to cover a threat but at the same time make them less viable than they would be by going standard, bring teammates instead that can deal with those things!

Also I've already told you I don't like Counter on Mega Kangaskhan but I'm gonna say it again.. I don't like it. lol

I highly recommend checking out the link I posted in the Japanese Battle Spot Resources thread recently, it'll give you a whole bunch of team ideas, and I use it often for just checking individual Pokemon sets. Don't be intimidated by the language, just run the page / moves / sets through Google translate. It'll take some interpreting because obviously it doesn't give the actual move name on 90% of them but you'll figure it out!
 
The sooner you realise that Pokemon have roles in a team rather than each one needing to check everything in the metagame on their own, the sooner you'll get better. You're thinking too much and trying to cover too much with so few Pokemon that their utility is being severely stretched out so they're not actually that good at any one thing. Every Pokemon has checks/counters, so instead of trying to make sure each of your Pokemon has some niche move to cover a threat but at the same time make them less viable than they would be by going standard, bring teammates instead that can deal with those things!

Also I've already told you I don't like Counter on Mega Kangaskhan but I'm gonna say it again.. I don't like it. lol

I highly recommend checking out the link I posted in the Japanese Battle Spot Resources thread recently, it'll give you a whole bunch of team ideas, and I use it often for just checking individual Pokemon sets. Don't be intimidated by the language, just run the page / moves / sets through Google translate. It'll take some interpreting because obviously it doesn't give the actual move name on 90% of them but you'll figure it out!

If you're talking about Freeze-Dry in Mamo, I switched it for Icicle Spear. If you mean EQ on Venu...then I'm less sure. Like I've said, it's helped a lot, and I can't even think of one scenario where I really wished I had Giga Drain instead(Maybe Mega Swampy and Rhyperior, though they are blessedly rare. I guess there's also...Quagsire.)

I get that you dislike Counter on Mega Kang, but you never said why:) It helps a lot w/ stuff like Exca, opposing Kang(DE ones, not Secret Power, since that second hit's gotta do at least 25% for me to OHKO,) Scizor(sometimes,) Mamoswine(I'll pass on the recoil, thanks,) Mega Swampert, Mega Metagross, Char X lacking multiple boosts, Dragonite if you're not running Ice Punch on Kang, Chomp, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Breloom(it wouldn't go for Spore expecting a move that KOs through its sash, meaning it'll Mach Punch and eat a giant. counter. Saves you recoil,) TTar, and some other stuff I can't think of right now.

I'll look there, I have to wonder what Pokemon run for EVs and stuff, PGL doesn't tell you those.
 
If you're talking about Freeze-Dry in Mamo, I switched it for Icicle Spear. If you mean EQ on Venu...then I'm less sure. Like I've said, it's helped a lot, and I can't even think of one scenario where I really wished I had Giga Drain instead(Maybe Mega Swampy and Rhyperior, though they are blessedly rare. I guess there's also...Quagsire.)

I get that you dislike Counter on Mega Kang, but you never said why:) It helps a lot w/ stuff like Exca, opposing Kang(DE ones, not Secret Power, since that second hit's gotta do at least 25% for me to OHKO,) Scizor(sometimes,) Mamoswine(I'll pass on the recoil, thanks,) Mega Swampert, Mega Metagross, Char X lacking multiple boosts, Dragonite if you're not running Ice Punch on Kang, Chomp, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Breloom(it wouldn't go for Spore expecting a move that KOs through its sash, meaning it'll Mach Punch and eat a giant. counter. Saves you recoil,) TTar, and some other stuff I can't think of right now.

I'll look there, I have to wonder what Pokemon run for EVs and stuff, PGL doesn't tell you those.
Yeah I was talking about Earthquake on Venusaur. Like you say it's for a whole bunch of Steels, but Mega Venusaur shouldn't be used for fighting those, which is why you see M-Venu being paired with things like Entei, Heatran, Rotom-H, and Gliscor etc... You want Giga Drain for things that Venusaur is used to check like Suicune, Rotom-W, Azumarill, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine etc... All the things you listed could either be hit by Giga Drain or beaten by a teammate. You seem to be worried about all these things that wall Venusaur (which is likely to happen for a slow and/or defensively-oriented Pokemon) but your solution is to look for ways that Venusaur can get around them, instead of looking for ways your team can instead!

I'm also thinking of dropping Kang since it adds no defensive utility
Kangaskhan is not used for its defensive utility! It's used to nuke the shit out of things with it's stupidly powerful offense. However, Kang is obviously one of the most prepared-for Pokemon in the game, so if you're just slapping it on a team without giving it appropriate support then it's gonna do shit all for you.

Counter is dumb because Kang has one of the biggest/best physical movepools and has some pretty bad 4-moveslot-syndrome as-is, so wasting one of those precious slots for a gimmick move is silly, imo.
It helps a lot w/ stuff like Exca, opposing Kang(DE ones, not Secret Power, since that second hit's gotta do at least 25% for me to OHKO,) Scizor(sometimes,) Mamoswine(I'll pass on the recoil, thanks,) Mega Swampert, Mega Metagross, Char X lacking multiple boosts, Dragonite if you're not running Ice Punch on Kang, Chomp, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Breloom(it wouldn't go for Spore expecting a move that KOs through its sash, meaning it'll Mach Punch and eat a giant. counter. Saves you recoil,) TTar, and some other stuff I can't think of right now
The bolded mons are hit by Earthquake. Why would you pass on the recoil of Double-Edge when it OHKOes Mamo?? Instead opting to use a move that requires Khan getting hit first?? You do realise you'd take less damage from recoil than by getting hit by Mamo first, right?? Double-Edge also OHKOes Breloom, Mega Swampert and Dragonite are beaten by Fake Out + Double-Edge (or Double-Edge + Sucker Punch), Garchomp has a good chance of going down to Double-Edge, and Talonflame needs to be the dedicated physically-defensive set to beat Khan (not very common at all). So right now your arguement for Counter is pretty well beaten I think...
 
Yeah I was talking about Earthquake on Venusaur. Like you say it's for a whole bunch of Steels, but Mega Venusaur shouldn't be used for fighting those, which is why you see M-Venu being paired with things like Entei, Heatran, Rotom-H, and Gliscor etc... You want Giga Drain for things that Venusaur is used to check like Suicune, Rotom-W, Azumarill, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine etc... All the things you listed could either be hit by Giga Drain or beaten by a teammate. You seem to be worried about all these things that wall Venusaur (which is likely to happen for a slow and/or defensively-oriented Pokemon) but your solution is to look for ways that Venusaur can get around them, instead of looking for ways your team can instead!


Kangaskhan is not used for its defensive utility! It's used to nuke the shit out of things with it's stupidly powerful offense. However, Kang is obviously one of the most prepared-for Pokemon in the game, so if you're just slapping it on a team without giving it appropriate support then it's gonna do shit all for you.

Counter is dumb because Kang has one of the biggest/best physical movepools and has some pretty bad 4-moveslot-syndrome as-is, so wasting one of those precious slots for a gimmick move is silly, imo.

The bolded mons are hit by Earthquake. Why would you pass on the recoil of Double-Edge when it OHKOes Mamo?? Instead opting to use a move that requires Khan getting hit first?? You do realise you'd take less damage from recoil than by getting hit by Mamo first, right?? Double-Edge also OHKOes Breloom, Mega Swampert and Dragonite are beaten by Fake Out + Double-Edge (or Double-Edge + Sucker Punch), Garchomp has a good chance of going down to Double-Edge, and Talonflame needs to be the dedicated physically-defensive set to beat Khan (not very common at all). So right now your arguement for Counter is pretty well beaten I think...

Kang does have nasty 4MSS, so maybe no Counter for it. Either way, I changed it for Mega Lopunny which I mentioned above.

Since I went straight for EQ instead of even trying GG first, I'll wait to pass judgement until I use it and see how it does. The set' fine though, right(obviously Bold>Relaxed, but am I running too much physical bulk? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean much.)

That was a weird way to justify dropping Kang, and it's not like Lopunny has much defensive utility(rock resist is kinda nice for me though.) The problem w/ it is just all the stuff you see that can usually deal w/ it, like Cress, Suicune, and stuff that outspeeds and damages it a lot, maybe even KOing. Another big one is Mega Sableye. My ParaFusion antics fail miserably against it, Venu has to pray for SB to poison the thing(and even then it's hardly game over,) Talon can't do any damage when you factor in Recover, and even Mamo loses plainly to it(recently got rid of my Mamo for a relatively fancy Chandelure set I made a while ago:)

Chandelure@Assault Vest
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 196 HP/ 252 Def/ 60 Spe
Modest Nature
-Flamethrower
-Energy Ball
-Shadow Ball
-Clear Smog

Actually had this set on one of my RMT's, and since no one criticized it I'm assuming it's not as bad as I'd expect other people to think it is. The main idea is Clear Smog, EVs outspeed Suicune and rob it of its boosts. Other stuff that hates it are Moody Pokes who like to hide behind Subs, hence Infiltrator as the ability, though Flash Fire works as it makes you wall Blaziken lacking a rock move or Knock Off. Speaking of Blaziken, it's 252+Atk Stone Edge does not OHKO. AV helps w/ taking a lot of hits on the special side. Chief among these is Mega Gengar, which Chandelure can always KO, even if the thing's behind a sub. There's also other special attackers like Thundy, boosted Serperior, Rotoms, etc. Energy Ball gets some stuff like Quagsire, Mamoswine(not that much harder than Flamethrower, but w/e,) Rotom-W, Rhyperior, Swampert(non Megas outsped,) Omastar, and Suicune, among others. A HP is quite weak, while Psychic doesn't really do anything(2HKOs Mega Venu, same as Flamethrower.)

Lastly, I would like to point out that even w/ all my crazy stuff like EQ Venusaur I still win more than I lose(yes on PS. Do you really think I have the patience to keep breeding new Pokes as I change my team, which I do a lot? Once I settle I promise I'll play cart lots.)
 
Alright I can somewhat understand why you replaced kangaskhan for lopunny. But how in the world does a chandelure replace mamoswine! It just makes no sense whatsoever. They have completely different roles and are good against different pokemon. Also a bulky assault vest chandelure is pretty useless to be quite frank. It's gonna get 2hko'ed by most moves and really only do about 30-40 percent damage to most pokemon with that spread before fainting. The only items I'd even think of using on chandelure are specs or scarf. To be honest, I think you need to start playing more on cart and practicing there instead of theorymoning with random pokemon.
 
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Alright I can somewhat understand why you replaced kangaskhan for lopunny. But how in the world does a chandelure replaced mamoswine! It just makes no sense whatsoever. They have completely different roles and are good against different pokemon. Also a bulky assault vest chandelure is pretty useless to be quite frank. It's gonna get 2hko'ed by most moves and really only do about 30-40 percent damage to most pokemon with that spread before fainting. The only items I'd even think of using on chandelure are specs or scarf. To be honest, I think you need to start playing more on cart and practicing there instead of theorymoning with random pokemon.


Again something I've used a lot, and with reasonable success. Stat boosting shenanigans and subs are the worst, which is why I like Chandelure. Damage output does kinda suck even w/ a Modest nature, which is very unfortunate. Chandelure is pretty odd. I think I'll actually just stick w/ Mamo now that I think about it. I'll try and finish breeding for the stuff I know I'm keeping on my team, at the very least, so I can start playing on cart.
 
Again something I've used a lot, and with reasonable success. Stat boosting shenanigans and subs are the worst, which is why I like Chandelure. Damage output does kinda suck even w/ a Modest nature, which is very unfortunate. Chandelure is pretty odd. I think I'll actually just stick w/ Mamo now that I think about it. I'll try and finish breeding for the stuff I know I'm keeping on my team, at the very least, so I can start playing on cart.
Yeah try to get a high rating on cart like break the 1700 benchmark. It's fun! And imo the users pokemon team are not evrything for winning, it's also about knowledge of pokemon you are facing. Predicting switches, scouting with good switches yourself and bring the three pokemon that best can deal with your opponents pokemon on team preview. Tactics are underrated in this whole subforum, the best player in the world doesn't have that different pokemon than other players do, it's about their skill and 'how' he/she uses them.
 
Yeah try to get a high rating on cart like break the 1700 benchmark. It's fun! And imo the users pokemon team are not evrything for winning, it's also about knowledge of pokemon you are facing. Predicting switches, scouting with good switches yourself and bring the three pokemon that best can deal with your opponents pokemon on team preview. Tactics are underrated in this whole subforum, the best player in the world doesn't have that different pokemon than other players do, it's about their skill and 'how' he/she uses them.

I can rarely manage to break 1600, fuck 1700+ my Maximum Trainer Potential ((((Skill+Team)*Luck) - Hax) = Peak_Rating) is a 3 digit number so I've dismissed it as "Infeasable".

No, no, I think the Pokemon team is important: I am REALLY fucking good with Arbok, but both me and Arbok suck. Char-Y, I think we can all agree Char-Y is pretty good in Doubles, not the best but pretty good. I've got Char-Y with a solid team and I know how to use it: still haven't broken 1600 with Charizard (only ever did it with Mega Metagross, which isn't bad but still not as good as Char-Y).
Tactics, Knowledge, and knowing how to use something is utterly powerless before the single greatest deciding factor of any battle: Hax.

But ok, bitchfest aside, tactics are something learned the hard way, and kinda difficult to discuss or show, imo. Core discussions help in this regard, but knowing how something functions and synergizes is only half the battle; using it yourself or facing against it repeatedly are the only ways to really... hmm... comprehend HOW it works, instead of WHY it would work.

Might throw a dysfunctional team in here later if anyone wants a dublz project
 
I can rarely manage to break 1600, fuck 1700+ my Maximum Trainer Potential ((((Skill+Team)*Luck) - Hax) = Peak_Rating) is a 3 digit number so I've dismissed it as "Infeasable".

No, no, I think the Pokemon team is important: I am REALLY fucking good with Arbok, but both me and Arbok suck. Char-Y, I think we can all agree Char-Y is pretty good in Doubles, not the best but pretty good. I've got Char-Y with a solid team and I know how to use it: still haven't broken 1600 with Charizard (only ever did it with Mega Metagross, which isn't bad but still not as good as Char-Y).
Tactics, Knowledge, and knowing how to use something is utterly powerless before the single greatest deciding factor of any battle: Hax.

But ok, bitchfest aside, tactics are something learned the hard way, and kinda difficult to discuss or show, imo. Core discussions help in this regard, but knowing how something functions and synergizes is only half the battle; using it yourself or facing against it repeatedly are the only ways to really... hmm... comprehend HOW it works, instead of WHY it would work.

Might throw a dysfunctional team in here later if anyone wants a dublz project
I dont say pokemon are nothing, but from a certain level we already know what the good pokemon are and what they can do (aka the viability ratings) so it's pretty common that those pokemon are used, im only saying that the tactics of using these pokemon and strategies that lay behind playing the game is more essential and less talked about here. Concepts like FEAR or general gaming principles described by sirlin are things i mean. We pretty much talk like persons are superbeings without emotions and act rationally all the time but this isn't the case and you can make use of that by certain tactics that otherwise seem illogical.
 
Ok guys, here's a scratcher for Doubles:

charizard-megay.gif
garchomp.gif
cresselia.gif
klefki.gif
heracross.gif


Charizard @ Mega-Y
Timid, 140 HP, 4 Def, 164 Sp. Atk, 4 Sp. Def, 196 Speed
Ability: Blaze (Drought)

- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Solar Beam
- Ancient Power

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Jolly, 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Rough Skin

- Dual Chop
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Cresselia @ Rocky Helmet
Calm, 252 HP, 232 Def, 4 Sp. Atk, 4 Sp. Def, 12 Speed
Ability: Levitate

- Psyshock
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
- Icy Wind

Klefki @ Sitrus Berry
Bold, 252 HP, 108 Def, 148 Sp. Def
Ability: Prankster

- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Safeguard

Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Adamant, 252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Speed
Ability: Moxie

- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat

Charizard is, imo, one of my best sets. The Speed outruns max Speed Krookodile (base 92) in order to creep all Landorus-T and the many things that creep it. It has so far been good, as all you gain from maxing Speed is a coinflip with Khan / other Charizard. Base 95 mons are uncommon and mostly irrelevent, Timid Hydreigon... well, fears nothing from Char-Y, so why bother outrunning it? The bulk is excellent: it survives most Thunderbolts (used Mega Manectric as a base, so Thundy-T and boosted / LO STAB T-bolt is the only way to OHKO), and thanks to its Speed and bulk, it can handle Rotom-H if desperately needed. Jolly Khan can't KO with Fake Out + Return either. Remainder is dumped in Sp. Atk; it's a steep fall from my old Modest one, but tbh the Speed and 2HKO power aren't exactly bad. Coverage is amazing. Ancientpower demolishes other Char-Y / Talonflame and hits Gyarados/Salamence as well.

Standard Garchomp is standard, and partners with Charizard to spam the ever obnoxious Heat Wave + EQ + Rock Slide spreadspam to kill pretty much everything. LO and Dual Chop makes it somewhat odd, I guess? Dual Chop is because I rarely, I mean VERY rarely, use Chompy's Dragon STAB in Doubles, so it's almost entirely reserved for killing Sashmons like Smeargle and Gengar:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 136-164 (100 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed fuckyoursash.
Chompy's main two items (Lum Berry / Rocky Helmet) are pretty moot: I have Prankster Safeguard for shit like DV Smeargle, HypnoBat, WoW Gengar, etc. Rocky Helmet is also more useful on Cress to further deter Khan.

Cresselia is here because this is doubles it synergizes very well with my 3-point artillery: Charizard, Garchomp, and Heracross. CM Cress in particular is horrifying in Sun, setting up as hits bounce off it and healing obnoxiously huge chunks of HP when desired. Hell, last match I had I killed a weakened CB Scizor by outhealing U-Turn while Rocky Helmet picked it off. It's a fucking sin that has swept me more times than I care to admit: but if my foe can use it, I can abuse it too. Psyshock is lower in power / objectively worse in a physically defensive meta, but does assure I win CM wars and Icy Wind + Psyshock at +3 make it practically a mixed attacker. Icy Wind is great Speed control, and if Milotic gets ballsy it is literal setup bait anyway. Rocky Helmet because Klefki NEEDS Sitrus, and also deters Khan and other physical mons much to Charizard's enjoyment. Also a pretty nasty set against Rain; weak Moonlight sucks though. Levitate lets Chompy spam EQ all day.
I need to change the Spead to hit better Icy Wind numbers; was originally a T-Wave Skill Swap set so Speed is just a basic creep.

Klefki is the most synergetic Prankster mon for a Char-Y + Ground core, and offers T-Wave and Safeguard for painful Speed control + hax, and to prevent opposing T-Wave and various other cheeses. Rock/Dark/Ice/Dragon/Flying resists are amazing, and Ground/Fire weaks are patched very easily just by Charizard. Swagger makes T-Wave even more disgusting, and gives supportive / special mons a headache; as a side effect it also makes Chompy and Heracross absolutely devastating in conjunction with Safeguard, while also demolishing Special and Physical mons alike with Foul Play. Classic SafeSwag Klefki set, bulk allows it to tank LO 252+ Hydreigon's Earth Power, and Heatran's Heat Wave out of Sun. Physically, nothing particular / basically a remainder, but helps tackle PuP Khan. Sitrus is its only healing option (beyond Prankster ChestoRest but I only have 4 moveslots lol). It's odd to have 2 supporters, I admit, but I usually pick either Cress OR klefki as my Speed-raping support depending on which one is more effective at Team Preview. Even side by side, Cress + Klefki support each other, so no biggy.

Heracross is an odd pick; I'm aware of that. I've been running ScarfHera in dubz very successfully, as a blanket check to Greninja/Aerodactyl/Gengar (both Sash and Mega)/Char-Y/TTar/Cresselia/Kangaskhan/Terrakion/Heatran/Ludicolo and a shiton of others. It's fast, very strong, very dangerous in the back, and without a healthy Fairy type, very difficult to stop. It's very anti-weather, OHKOing every inducer bar Toed (who is simply outran and 2HKO'd, and can't really do much back) along with many common partners so it's my go-to mon for PoliColo teams and Japan Sand. It also stops opposing CM Cress; 4 def keeps all but the most offensive of Cresselia from KOing, and a swift Megahorn tears it apart. Supportive sets are just fucked. Fast and frail mons? Fucked. Even Scarf Hydreigon has trouble KOing (needs Sun) and non-scarf versions are, you guessed it, fucked. Nearly always rips apart 2+ mons per match once I clear/weaken the Fighting resist.
Moxie looks dumb, but do consider: most people will not WoW Heracross, being the poster child of Guts and all. I've left it right in front of high ranking, Japanese players with WoW Rotom-W and the mere POSSIBILITY of Guts turns them off. Also, Prankster Safeguard + Guts isn't the best combo out there, you know? Hera is almost always revenging something, and a +1 Scarfed Adamant Heracross locked on CC when you have no remaining Fighting resists is not something you want to be on the wrong end of. Common Fairies (Gardevoir/Sylveon) are beaten by Char-Y, common Ghosts fear Knock Off and Foul Play, and Flying mons hate Cresselia, Klefki, and Rockspam.
Spread is obvs, Jolly outruns nothing relevent (Scarf Landog does shit damage to you, you do shit damage to it, and Cress beats it anyway).

Last mon, I guess a Flying resist is most important; needs to be offensively relevent because of 2 support mons. Helps against PoliColo + MegaMence; very dangerous even with Klefki/CM Cress giggling at it. Been running Rotom-W but Rotom-W has always been trash for me but it covers Gyarados pretty decently. But is also pretty shit in Sun.
Team is pretty fast and offensive, with bulky/annoying supports, would prefer to keep it reasonably fast because 1) fuck TR and 2) Icy Wind and T-Wave.
Opposing Char-Y + Landog is annoying, but Cress goes miles to help. Could maybe use cover there.

Not sure what I want on the last slot tbh. xd
The above 5 have been amazing though; undefeated since the season started.
 
Ok guys, here's a scratcher for Doubles:

charizard-megay.gif
garchomp.gif
cresselia.gif
klefki.gif
heracross.gif


Charizard @ Mega-Y
Timid, 140 HP, 4 Def, 164 Sp. Atk, 4 Sp. Def, 196 Speed
Ability: Blaze (Drought)

- Heat Wave
- Protect
- Solar Beam
- Ancient Power

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Jolly, 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Rough Skin

- Dual Chop
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Cresselia @ Rocky Helmet
Calm, 252 HP, 232 Def, 4 Sp. Atk, 4 Sp. Def, 12 Speed
Ability: Levitate

- Psyshock
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
- Icy Wind

Klefki @ Sitrus Berry
Bold, 252 HP, 108 Def, 148 Sp. Def
Ability: Prankster

- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Safeguard

Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Adamant, 252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Speed
Ability: Moxie

- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat

Charizard is, imo, one of my best sets. The Speed outruns max Speed Krookodile (base 92) in order to creep all Landorus-T and the many things that creep it. It has so far been good, as all you gain from maxing Speed is a coinflip with Khan / other Charizard. Base 95 mons are uncommon and mostly irrelevent, Timid Hydreigon... well, fears nothing from Char-Y, so why bother outrunning it? The bulk is excellent: it survives most Thunderbolts (used Mega Manectric as a base, so Thundy-T and boosted / LO STAB T-bolt is the only way to OHKO), and thanks to its Speed and bulk, it can handle Rotom-H if desperately needed. Jolly Khan can't KO with Fake Out + Return either. Remainder is dumped in Sp. Atk; it's a steep fall from my old Modest one, but tbh the Speed and 2HKO power aren't exactly bad. Coverage is amazing. Ancientpower demolishes other Char-Y / Talonflame and hits Gyarados/Salamence as well.

Standard Garchomp is standard, and partners with Charizard to spam the ever obnoxious Heat Wave + EQ + Rock Slide spreadspam to kill pretty much everything. LO and Dual Chop makes it somewhat odd, I guess? Dual Chop is because I rarely, I mean VERY rarely, use Chompy's Dragon STAB in Doubles, so it's almost entirely reserved for killing Sashmons like Smeargle and Gengar:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 136-164 (100 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed fuckyoursash.
Chompy's main two items (Lum Berry / Rocky Helmet) are pretty moot: I have Prankster Safeguard for shit like DV Smeargle, HypnoBat, WoW Gengar, etc. Rocky Helmet is also more useful on Cress to further deter Khan.

Cresselia is here because this is doubles it synergizes very well with my 3-point artillery: Charizard, Garchomp, and Heracross. CM Cress in particular is horrifying in Sun, setting up as hits bounce off it and healing obnoxiously huge chunks of HP when desired. Hell, last match I had I killed a weakened CB Scizor by outhealing U-Turn while Rocky Helmet picked it off. It's a fucking sin that has swept me more times than I care to admit: but if my foe can use it, I can abuse it too. Psyshock is lower in power / objectively worse in a physically defensive meta, but does assure I win CM wars and Icy Wind + Psyshock at +3 make it practically a mixed attacker. Icy Wind is great Speed control, and if Milotic gets ballsy it is literal setup bait anyway. Rocky Helmet because Klefki NEEDS Sitrus, and also deters Khan and other physical mons much to Charizard's enjoyment. Also a pretty nasty set against Rain; weak Moonlight sucks though. Levitate lets Chompy spam EQ all day.
I need to change the Spead to hit better Icy Wind numbers; was originally a T-Wave Skill Swap set so Speed is just a basic creep.

Klefki is the most synergetic Prankster mon for a Char-Y + Ground core, and offers T-Wave and Safeguard for painful Speed control + hax, and to prevent opposing T-Wave and various other cheeses. Rock/Dark/Ice/Dragon/Flying resists are amazing, and Ground/Fire weaks are patched very easily just by Charizard. Swagger makes T-Wave even more disgusting, and gives supportive / special mons a headache; as a side effect it also makes Chompy and Heracross absolutely devastating in conjunction with Safeguard, while also demolishing Special and Physical mons alike with Foul Play. Classic SafeSwag Klefki set, bulk allows it to tank LO 252+ Hydreigon's Earth Power, and Heatran's Heat Wave out of Sun. Physically, nothing particular / basically a remainder, but helps tackle PuP Khan. Sitrus is its only healing option (beyond Prankster ChestoRest but I only have 4 moveslots lol). It's odd to have 2 supporters, I admit, but I usually pick either Cress OR klefki as my Speed-raping support depending on which one is more effective at Team Preview. Even side by side, Cress + Klefki support each other, so no biggy.

Heracross is an odd pick; I'm aware of that. I've been running ScarfHera in dubz very successfully, as a blanket check to Greninja/Aerodactyl/Gengar (both Sash and Mega)/Char-Y/TTar/Cresselia/Kangaskhan/Terrakion/Heatran/Ludicolo and a shiton of others. It's fast, very strong, very dangerous in the back, and without a healthy Fairy type, very difficult to stop. It's very anti-weather, OHKOing every inducer bar Toed (who is simply outran and 2HKO'd, and can't really do much back) along with many common partners so it's my go-to mon for PoliColo teams and Japan Sand. It also stops opposing CM Cress; 4 def keeps all but the most offensive of Cresselia from KOing, and a swift Megahorn tears it apart. Supportive sets are just fucked. Fast and frail mons? Fucked. Even Scarf Hydreigon has trouble KOing (needs Sun) and non-scarf versions are, you guessed it, fucked. Nearly always rips apart 2+ mons per match once I clear/weaken the Fighting resist.
Moxie looks dumb, but do consider: most people will not WoW Heracross, being the poster child of Guts and all. I've left it right in front of high ranking, Japanese players with WoW Rotom-W and the mere POSSIBILITY of Guts turns them off. Also, Prankster Safeguard + Guts isn't the best combo out there, you know? Hera is almost always revenging something, and a +1 Scarfed Adamant Heracross locked on CC when you have no remaining Fighting resists is not something you want to be on the wrong end of. Common Fairies (Gardevoir/Sylveon) are beaten by Char-Y, common Ghosts fear Knock Off and Foul Play, and Flying mons hate Cresselia, Klefki, and Rockspam.
Spread is obvs, Jolly outruns nothing relevent (Scarf Landog does shit damage to you, you do shit damage to it, and Cress beats it anyway).

Last mon, I guess a Flying resist is most important; needs to be offensively relevent because of 2 support mons. Helps against PoliColo + MegaMence; very dangerous even with Klefki/CM Cress giggling at it. Been running Rotom-W but Rotom-W has always been trash for me but it covers Gyarados pretty decently. But is also pretty shit in Sun.
Team is pretty fast and offensive, with bulky/annoying supports, would prefer to keep it reasonably fast because 1) fuck TR and 2) Icy Wind and T-Wave.
Opposing Char-Y + Landog is annoying, but Cress goes miles to help. Could maybe use cover there.

Not sure what I want on the last slot tbh. xd
The above 5 have been amazing though; undefeated since the season started.
Thundurus looks like it could fit pretty well on here but it makes your Lando match up kind of bad. I would consider replacing Klefki with it since they fill a similar role. Between Scarf Hera (make this Jolly btw) and Dual Chop Garchomp you aren't really weak to Smeargle and Thundy still gets Taunt.

After that maybe Milotic to deal with Lando. Milotic still fits decently well on the original team too.
 
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