Rules Past Format Battle Stadium SQSA

[cant say]

R U L E S​

We don't have many rules that aren't already laid out in Smogon's forum-wide rules so make sure you read those. But here's some things to remember when posting here:

1. Don't post a thread without asking either myself, Psynergy, or chemcoop first! The only exception is if a new Online Competition gets announced and none of us are online to ask, however you need to put effort into the OP. Use past threads as a reference, make sure the rules are clear and tag Lego so he can add the format to Showdown!
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   • Simple Questions go in this thread
   • Discussion of 3v3 Singles goes here
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Use this thread to ask about anything you're unsure of!

If you've got a simple question about Battle Spot and not sure where to post, this is the place!

FAQ:

• What is Battle Stadium?
  • Battle Stadium is the collection of online ranked modes on the Switch games themselves. The modes are 3v3 Singles (BSS) and 4v4 Doubles aka The Official VGC Ladder (discuss that in the proper forum). In all modes - barring some special formats - you bring 6 Pokemon and choose the required amount at team preview
• How do I play Battle Stadium?
  • Firstly you'll need a Nintendo Online account. Once in the game, press X to bring up the menu and choose VS, then choose Battle Stadium and go to Ranked Battles. From there you can choose Singles or Doubles.
• What are the rules? What's banned?
  • The simplest way of explaining the rules of Battle Stadium is that it's an online, player-vs-player version of the Battle Tower. Only certain mythical Pokemon are banned, you can run up to two cover legendaries on each team, you can only use one of each item on your team, and Gigantamaxing/Dynamaxing is allowed.
• Can I use Pokemon transferred from older games?
  • Unfortunately, no, not in their transferred state. They can receive a Battle Ready mark in the Battle Tower, but this will require wiping all transfer exclusive moves.

 

[Fexamir]

Hello fellow trainers, I'm TOTALLY new to battling (so new that I still struggle to remember type weaknesses) and I'm looking for some advice. I know that this is going to be more than a "simple question that requires a simple answer", but I didn't really know if I should open a new thread about it, so if that's the case just tell me and I'll do it.

For my first team which I want to build around two pokemons that I really like, Grimmsnarl (awesome sprite imho) and Gyarados (long time fan), I was thinking about using Grimmsnarl to set screens and then bring in the coolest non-dragon to Dragon Dance and take down the opposition by MAXIMUM DAMAGE. I know that this is pretty vague and incredibly simple "strategy", but as I said I have 0 experience, and I'm looking for a way to start and improve from there.
What about the other pokemons? What would you consider a beginner friendly team? The main thing that is holding me back from trying random pokemons and see if they work, is that it requires quite a lot of time to breed them in the proper way, and if something just doesn't work it means you just wasted hours on them.

This is what I achieved so far, copying the EV spread from topics but if I'm to be honest I'm not really sure why they're set that way.

Spoiler

Gyarados @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Bounce

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Thanks in advance for your answers \o/

 

[cant say]

This is what I achieved so far, copying the EV spread from topics but if I'm to be honest I'm not really sure why they're set that way.

These EV spreads are just max/max spreads. If it’s not obvious why Gyarados wants max attack and speed, or Ferrothorn needs max HP and def, then there’s going to be a lot of learning to be done.

I’m really not a fan of this Grimmsnarl set. If you want to use Grimmsnarl for the sake of using it then you should play to its strengths, one of which is being a flawless switch-in to Dragapult thanks to its raw typing.

Something like this could be viable:

Grimmsnarl @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Spirit Break / Play Rough
- False Surrender / Darkest Lariat
- Thunder Wave / Drain Punch / Hammer Arm / Sucker Punch

This allows you to come in on Dragapult and either start boosting, or get a free Twave or some damage on their switch.

I don’t like Grimm as a dual screen lead, it seems like noob bait because of Prankster. The problem is that leads want a good way to leave the field and get the set up sweeper in safely. Grimm has no moves like Explosion, Memento, Parting Shot etc to make use of. A smart opponent will realise you aren’t a threat and either boost themselves or get their threat in instead of mindlessly killing Grimm. Or they do decide to kill you but you switch in your sweeper manually and take too much damage in the process. Good examples last generation were Latios (screens + Memento), Shuckle (Sticky Web + Encore), Mimikyu (Curse), and Landorus-T (Explosion).

The only way you can slow pivot out with Grimm is using Eject Pack + Superpower or Hammer Arm, which switches you out when your stats drop. This won’t work against Ghost types, the only one that can afford to stay in is Mimikyu which you can’t give free turns to.

If you want a dual screens lead I recommend Steel Beam Duraladon, as the 50% recoil will KO Duraladon and get your sweeper in safely.

Duraladon @ Light Clay
Ability: Stalwart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Stealth Rock
- Steel Beam

As for other Pokemon, for a newbie just go with safe picks: Mimikyu, Rotom-H, Dragapult, Snorlax.

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

I agree with a lot said above, though I don't think Grimmsnarl is the worst Screens lead ever. A potential pokemon to look at as a premier screens user is Dragapult. Having Curse/WoW/uturn on a screener is excellent, especially with the speed tier

 

[Fexamir]

Hey guys, first of all thanks for your answers!

These EV spreads are just max/max spreads. If it’s not obvious why Gyarados wants max attack and speed, or Ferrothorn needs max HP and def, then there’s going to be a lot of learning to be done.

I’m really not a fan of this Grimmsnarl set. If you want to use Grimmsnarl for the sake of using it then you should play to its strengths, one of which is being a flawless switch-in to Dragapult thanks to its raw typing.

Something like this could be viable:

Grimmsnarl @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Spirit Break / Play Rough
- False Surrender / Darkest Lariat
- Thunder Wave / Drain Punch / Hammer Arm / Sucker Punch

This allows you to come in on Dragapult and either start boosting, or get a free Twave or some damage on their switch.

I don’t like Grimm as a dual screen lead, it seems like noob bait because of Prankster. The problem is that leads want a good way to leave the field and get the set up sweeper in safely. Grimm has no moves like Explosion, Memento, Parting Shot etc to make use of. A smart opponent will realise you aren’t a threat and either boost themselves or get their threat in instead of mindlessly killing Grimm. Or they do decide to kill you but you switch in your sweeper manually and take too much damage in the process. Good examples last generation were Latios (screens + Memento), Shuckle (Sticky Web + Encore), Mimikyu (Curse), and Landorus-T (Explosion).

The only way you can slow pivot out with Grimm is using Eject Pack + Superpower or Hammer Arm, which switches you out when your stats drop. This won’t work against Ghost types, the only one that can afford to stay in is Mimikyu which you can’t give free turns to.

If you want a dual screens lead I recommend Steel Beam Duraladon, as the 50% recoil will KO Duraladon and get your sweeper in safely.

Duraladon @ Light Clay
Ability: Stalwart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Stealth Rock
- Steel Beam

As for other Pokemon, for a newbie just go with safe picks: Mimikyu, Rotom-H, Dragapult, Snorlax.

Well, there is indeed a lot of learning to be done, but now that you put it this way, yes it is kinda obvious why you want Attack and Speed on this particular sweeper setup. Also, I've been suggested to switch Ferrothorn's EV from Def to SpDef, since "most of Gyarados' Electric threats' will come from special attackers", or to throw in a Seismitoad altogether for a more offensive response to those threats. I find these good suggestions, but I'd like to hear your take on this, as having another opinion on the matter doesn't hurt at all.

Regarding Grimmsnarl, I'd love to fit it inside a team since I really like its design, and I thought that my setup would've been indeed a great way to make use of its Prankster ability: screens priority, Taunt to prevent set-ups and screen removals, and Thunder Wave to hinder enemy sweepers' ability to mop the floor with my pokemons. I don't mind changing the moveset at all, since from what you're saying I'd have to be facing a bot in order to set up everything perfectly, but I don't really understand what Grimmsnarl's role in the team would be: Gyarados would still be the main damage dealer, Ferrothorn is there to prevent Gyarados from being raped and to provide bulk to the team, but what about poor Grimm? He's only gonna be useful as a counter to a specific pokemon?

I'm definitely gonna look into the pokemons you suggested, but please help me understanding how sacrificing a pokemon (Duraladon or whatever I choose as a lead) would be beneficial in the long run.

I agree with a lot said above, though I don't think Grimmsnarl is the worst Screens lead ever. A potential pokemon to look at as a premier screens user is Dragapult. Having Curse/WoW/uturn on a screener is excellent, especially with the speed tier

I keep reading about Dragapult kinda everywhere, but mostly as a damage dealer instead of being a utility pokemon. As I said above, I'm not really sure anymore about wanting to have a screener in the team, actually I'm not really sure about what kind of team I should run at all, but I guess that its potential should be better used as a pure damage pokemon? Also, is there any place where I can find some simple team compositions, in order to better help me build mine? Something along the lines of "tank, damage dealer, healer".

Once again, thanks a lot for the time taken to answer me y'all!

 

[Solerme]

Also, is there any place where I can find some simple team compositions, in order to better help me build mine? Something along the lines of "tank, damage dealer, healer".

We still need to post sample teams. It will take a little while since we are all trying to get what's going to be the meta.
Hang with us in the room or on discord though, you'll find plenty of help/brainstorming.

The room: https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battlestadium
Discord, in the Teambuilding channel: https://discord.gg/QK8rNf

 

[cant say]

I've been suggested to switch Ferrothorn's EV from Def to SpDef

Where have you been talking? In BSS you’ll want to use hp+def Ferro 90% of the time as its one of the only answers to Mimikyu and Gyarados. There are a few situations where SpD would be preferred but that depends entirely on team composition.

what about poor Grimm? He's only gonna be useful as a counter to a specific pokemon?

Mostly, yes. Every metagame as centralising threats, and BSS is no different. You’ll see teams with a dedicated answer to things like Mimikyu, Gyarados and Dragapult (at least in this early meta where everyone is obsessed with it). Steel + Fairy is a popular defensive backbone as it allows pretty decent pivoting.

help me understanding how sacrificing a pokemon (Duraladon or whatever I choose as a lead) would be beneficial in the long run

I’m not sure I understand. Is this because I recommended 4 Pokémon when you already had 3? They were just some examples of Pokémon I recommend trying out while you’re learning as they’re very easy to use.

is there any place where I can find some simple team compositions, in order to better help me build mine? Something along the lines of "tank, damage dealer, healer".

I am really not a fan of this mindset when teambuilding for BSS. Since you can only pick 3 of your 6 at team preview, the roles of your team need to be A LOT more flexible than those you mentioned. We like to call this “role compression.” I usually like to build the first 4-5 member of the team focussing around how I want to set up my win condition and covering weaknesses, then look at what role I’m really missing. Like you can have 4-5 physical attackers and not worry about not having a tank / lead etc., but you’re going to want a dedicated special wall breaker at that point so you don’t get walled by Galarian Corsola.

 

[Fexamir]

Where have you been talking? In BSS you’ll want to use hp+def Ferro 90% of the time as its one of the only answers to Mimikyu and Gyarados. There are a few situations where SpD would be preferred but that depends entirely on team composition.

On a BSS subreddit, I asked the exact same question I originlly asked here. I'm trying to gather as much info as I can before I start building my team while I complete the pokedex.

Mostly, yes. Every metagame as centralising threats, and BSS is no different. You’ll see teams with a dedicated answer to things like Mimikyu, Gyarados and Dragapult (at least in this early meta where everyone is obsessed with it). Steel + Fairy is a popular defensive backbone as it allows pretty decent pivoting.

I am really not a fan of this mindset when teambuilding for BSS. Since you can only pick 3 of your 6 at team preview, the roles of your team need to be A LOT more flexible than those you mentioned. We like to call this “role compression.” I usually like to build the first 4-5 member of the team focussing around how I want to set up my win condition and covering weaknesses, then look at what role I’m really missing. Like you can have 4-5 physical attackers and not worry about not having a tank / lead etc., but you’re going to want a dedicated special wall breaker at that point so you don’t get walled by Galarian Corsola.

I think I'm starting to understand this, there is no standard team composition or roles (but some pokemons work better than others at what they di) and there are many possibile ways to link together a team. In my original plan, I suppose my basic win condition was "eliminate gyarados threats and rack up chip damage before sweeping", but as the total noob I am, I wasn't accounting for enemy reaction, supposing that they would just let me do my thing. I guess I'll have to look into it a bit more :D

I’m not dure I understand. Is this because I recommended 4 Pokémon when you already had 3? They were just some examples of Pokémon I recommend trying out while you’re learning as they’re very easy to use.

I may have not explained myself correctly, what I meant is: why should KO'ing Duraladon with Steel Beam be beneficial to the team? That would leave me in a 2v3 situation. I mean, I understand that he would have set up the shields and his job would be pretty much done by the time I sacrifice it, but wouldn't it be better to keep him alive and manually switching to another pokemon? I know that if you switch the pokemon that comes in takes free damage, but I didn't think that it would be worse than losing one altogether.

We still need to post sample teams. It will take a little while since we are all trying to get what's going to be the meta.
Hang with us in the room or on discord though, you'll find plenty of help/brainstorming.

The room: https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battlestadium
Discord, in the Teambuilding channel: https://discord.gg/QK8rNf

Definitely gonna swing by those channels, thanks!

 

[cant say]

On a BSS subreddit, I asked the exact same question I originlly asked here. I'm trying to gather as much info as I can before I start building my team while I complete the pokedex.

Oh cool. Would you mind linking it? We're always really interested to see how people outside this community go about BSS. Our idea of the metagame is heavily infuenced by the Japanese blogosphere and tournaments we host here, which we then use on the cartridge ladder (and therefor encounter the Japanese players and teams we're familiar with). SpD Ferrothorn goes against our general idea of what it should do so I'm keen to see what other philosophies they may believe.

I think I'm starting to understand this, there is no standard team composition or roles (but some pokemons work better than others at what they di) and there are many possibile ways to link together a team. In my original plan, I suppose my basic win condition was "eliminate gyarados threats and rack up chip damage before sweeping", but as the total noob I am, I wasn't accounting for enemy reaction, supposing that they would just let me do my thing. I guess I'll have to look into it a bit more :D

Yeah that's an oversimplified description I guess. It all just comes down to role compression and supporting your main wincon. 6v6 teams can more often afford to run dedicated special wall + physical wall + special attacker + physical attacker + cleric + scarfer or some kind of framework like that (again, an oversimplified example) because you'll be bringing every Pokemon every game so they're all a switch-in away. If you had the same approach in BSS, you might get stuck at team preview every game having to decide which specific roles you're going to bring.

As an example I'll use Chansey (gen 7 OU) and both Snorlax and Porygon2 (gen 7 RU). Chansey is so commonly used in OU because it just switches into literally every special attacker ever, forever, and when the opponent sends in their physical wallbreaker you just go to something in your 6 that can handle that. However, in a BSS game where you have to choose 3 at team preview, you may not want to bring your physical wall to a game because the matchup for it looks really tough, but you need to cover Chansey's weaknesses all the same. This pigeonholes you at team preview into bringing a sub optimal 3.

Snorlax and Porygon2 on the other hand are a bit less bulky so they don't specialise so well in their roles, but they can absorb attacks very well. The thing is though they can both dish it back just as well, or have more balanced defensive stats. All of a sudden, your 'bulky normal type' role on the team has become a flexible mix of offence and defence with A LOT less risk of bringing at team preview, for the cost of not necessarily specialising in any one thing. P2 and Lax were 12th and 24th most used in BSS last gen, compared to Chansey sitting at 46th.

In fact, I went to the BSS usage stats to find an example to the contrary; where a Pokemon excels at one single role but is so good at it that it's worth bringing anyway, but I'm struggling to do so. I think the tl;dr of it all is choose flexible Pokemon!

(here's the website two of our users maintain to see BSS usage taken straight from the 3DS ladder)

Scrolling down the list, the first Pokemon I see known for predominantly running one set is Breloom, which was popular for its Spore/Bullet Seed/Mach Punch/Rock Tomb with a Focus Sash set. Its only job was to come in, put something to sleep and try to trade 1-for-1, or more often than not, 1-for-1 + crippling the next foe sent out (or just sitting in the back and winning the endgame). But Breloom is SO GOOD at this that it's worth bringing, despite being 1-dimensional...

I may have not explained myself correctly, what I meant is: why should KO'ing Duraladon with Steel Beam be beneficial to the team? That would leave me in a 2v3 situation. I mean, I understand that he would have set up the shields and his job would be pretty much done by the time I sacrifice it, but wouldn't it be better to keep him alive and manually switching to another pokemon? I know that if you switch the pokemon that comes in takes free damage, but I didn't think that it would be worse than losing one altogether.

Manually switching leaves you susceptible to critical hits on that turn which bypass the screens and do big damage, if not KO your mon altogether. You're also essentially losing valuable set up turns. Let's say your Gyarados takes 35% from some move. If you switch in on that move, the foe will be able to 2HKO you from there, limiting you to 2 Dragon Dances. If you sacrifice Duraladon and get Gyara in healthy, it's now in 3HKO range, allowing you to Dragon Dance twice, or just go for the single DD like before, but keep enough health left to not get immediately revenge KOed when your +1 attack Gyarados fails to KO the next Pokemon... a 2v3 doesn't mean much when their 3 aren't able to withstand 1 of your 2. You might even be able to set up infront of an Electric type with the screens up if you get Gyara in safely, whereas manually switching into that would surely be a 2HKO.

Duraladon would have likely taken heavy damage in the process of setting the screens and/or rocks, and is relatively slow as well, so even if you save it for later, it likely won't be able to do anything anyway.

 

[Fexamir]

Oh cool. Would you mind linking it? We're always really interested to see how people outside this community go about BSS. Our idea of the metagame is heavily infuenced by the Japanese blogosphere and tournaments we host here, which we then use on the cartridge ladder (and therefor encounter the Japanese players and teams we're familiar with). SpD Ferrothorn goes against our general idea of what it should do so I'm keen to see what other philosophies they may believe.

Sure, although now that I look at it a little better, it's not entirely dedicated to BSS and looks quite active, so I doubt you don't know about it already

https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/e0w9kc/simple_questions_faq_sqsa_getting_started/f8p35pf

Yeah that's an oversimplified description I guess. It all just comes down to role compression and supporting your main wincon. 6v6 teams can more often afford to run dedicated special wall + physical wall + special attacker + physical attacker + cleric + scarfer or some kind of framework like that (again, an oversimplified example) because you'll be bringing every Pokemon every game so they're all a switch-in away. If you had the same approach in BSS, you might get stuck at team preview every game having to decide which specific roles you're going to bring.

As an example I'll use Chansey (gen 7 OU) and both Snorlax and Porygon2 (gen 7 RU). Chansey is so commonly used in OU because it just switches into literally every special attacker ever, forever, and when the opponent sends in their physical wallbreaker you just go to something in your 6 that can handle that. However, in a BSS game where you have to choose 3 at team preview, you may not want to bring your physical wall to a game because the matchup for it looks really tough, but you need to cover Chansey's weaknesses all the same. This pigeonholes you at team preview into bringing a sub optimal 3.

Snorlax and Porygon2 on the other hand are a bit less bulky so they don't specialise so well in their roles, but they can absorb attacks very well. The thing is though they can both dish it back just as well, or have more balanced defensive stats. All of a sudden, your 'bulky normal type' role on the team has become a flexible mix of offence and defence with A LOT less risk of bringing at team preview, for the cost of not necessarily specialising in any one thing. P2 and Lax were 12th and 24th most used in BSS last gen, compared to Chansey sitting at 46th.

In fact, I went to the BSS usage stats to find an example to the contrary; where a Pokemon excels at one single role but is so good at it that it's worth bringing anyway, but I'm struggling to do so. I think the tl;dr of it all is choose flexible Pokemon!

(here's the website two of our users maintain to see BSS usage taken straight from the 3DS ladder)

Scrolling down the list, the first Pokemon I see known for predominantly running one set is Breloom, which was popular for its Spore/Bullet Seed/Mach Punch/Rock Tomb with a Focus Sash set. Its only job was to come in, put something to sleep and try to trade 1-for-1, or more often than not, 1-for-1 + crippling the next foe sent out (or just sitting in the back and winning the endgame). But Breloom is SO GOOD at this that it's worth bringing, despite being 1-dimensional...

The fact that everytime you're supposed to pick 3 pokemons out of 6 surely involves more strategy and requires quite a lot of experience to make the right calls. I probably should start playing BSS sooner than later, since my knowledge is incredibly limited and I cannot plan a team without even knowing how 99% of the pokemons are used. I'm gonna research a bit more trying to find a few pokemons that I like and can fulfill more roles instead of being locked in one archetype, and build the team around them instead of being just "GYARADOS YOU GO AND FUCK THINGS UP!".
I know I'm probably bothering you with all these questions, but is there any chance that you could give me an example of a quite used win condition to understand what it takes to build a functioning team, while still being flexible?

Manually switching leaves you susceptible to critical hits on that turn which bypass the screens and do big damage, if not KO your mon altogether. You're also essentially losing valuable set up turns. Let's say your Gyarados takes 35% from some move. If you switch in on that move, the foe will be able to 2HKO you from there, limiting you to 2 Dragon Dances. If you sacrifice Duraladon and get Gyara in healthy, it's now in 3HKO range, allowing you to Dragon Dance twice, or just go for the single DD like before, but keep enough health left to not get immediately revenge KOed when your +1 attack Gyarados fails to KO the next Pokemon... a 2v3 doesn't mean much when their 3 aren't able to withstand 1 of your 2. You might even be able to set up infront of an Electric type with the screens up if you get Gyara in safely, whereas manually switching into that would surely be a 2HKO.

Duraladon would have likely taken heavy damage in the process of setting the screens and/or rocks, and is relatively slow as well, so even if you save it for later, it likely won't be able to do anything anyway.

Wow, I had no idea that switching in made you more vulnerable to crits and that damage bypassed screens :O About the rest, you're completely right. It would not make sense to manually switch a pokemon to preserve one who is gonna be useless anyway.

Thanks a lot dude, you're really helping me understand things better!

 

[marilli]

The fact that everytime you're supposed to pick 3 pokemons out of 6 surely involves more strategy and requires quite a lot of experience to make the right calls. I probably should start playing BSS sooner than later, since my knowledge is incredibly limited and I cannot plan a team without even knowing how 99% of the pokemons are used. I'm gonna research a bit more trying to find a few pokemons that I like and can fulfill more roles instead of being locked in one archetype, and build the team around them instead of being just "GYARADOS YOU GO AND FUCK THINGS UP!".
I know I'm probably bothering you with all these questions, but is there any chance that you could give me an example of a quite used win condition to understand what it takes to build a functioning team, while still being flexible?

I'd say flexibility mainly comes in 2 forms: a single set having a lot of uses, or a Pokemon having access to several threatening sets.

As for the first, Mimikyu is the posterchild of BSS exactly because of this. Mimikyu can always set up an SD and go for game, but there are other sweepers that can be similarly threatening. What sets Mimikyu apart is its defensive utility, being able to guarantee a survival from a versatile attacker like Dragapult in Gen 8 or Greninja in Gen 7 without worrying about figuring out its exact set, or being able to pick off weakened sweepers with Shadow Sneak. We are just talking about a single Mimikyu set of SD/Shadow Claw/Shadow Sneak/Play Rough, (and not other utility set including moves like Curse or Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave) it adds a lot to your team with its offensive-defensive utility.

Another example would be having both Will-O-Wisp and Nasty Plot on your Rotom-Fan. Those 2 moves don't really synergize with each other in a significant way, and taking hits and Will-O-Wisping them will generally not leave you with enough HP to set up later. But, there may be matchups where you maybe can't afford to Dynamax your Rotom-Fan, but need to bring it as a defensive check to things, or want to win with it but they have an Excadrill. Having Wisp and Nasty Plot allows you to hedge your bets in the teambuilder and act flexibly, so that you can burn the Excadrill switch-in and win with something else later, or burn things reactively to stop a sweep, and have the ability to set up and win in case they didn't bring the Excadrill or it got chipped down by burn.

Dragapult is a straightforward example of the second, where it has access to so much effective coverage that your opponent must simply guess their way around it. While your options are in reality restricted, your opponent isn't aware of which options you have. So, he is forced to consider all the different things you could do. Gyarados will always try to dynamax and win, but it has access to wide range of coverage - and it is perfectly viable to use 4 coverage moves which will beat certain Pokemon that conditionally check Gyarados depending on its coverage choice.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Wow, I had no idea that switching in made you more vulnerable to crits and that damage bypassed screens :O About the rest, you're completely right. It would not make sense to manually switch a pokemon to preserve one who is gonna be useless anyway.

To clarify: you don't become more likely to be crit when you're switching, but switching gives your opponent more free attacks against your team. The more times they get to attack, the more opportunities they have to roll a crit.

 

[greilmercenary9]

Marilli did a good job of outlining how different mons can be flexible, so I won't rehash his points from above. However, the point about Ferrothorn's EV spread is also an interesting point about learning a new metagame: while looking at things from a very general standpoint can be valuable, ultimately the specifics of the metagame or of what you need your team to do in said meta are more important than very general considerations like "most Electric attackers are special and I want Ferrothorn to switch into Electric types that check Gyarados." That doesn't mean the general thought expressed there is bad--it can actually be very helpful--but being successful in practice means having to turns those general ideas into something actionable.

If you look at the most common Electric types being used early in the meta, you'll see that it is mostly Rotom formes, and especially Rotom-Heat and Rotom-Wash. (I've occasionally seen Toxtricity and Jolteon but they are rare and not especially relevant overall). Ferrothorn is trounced by the former and easily beats the latter (especially with Hidden Power Fire no longer available for Wash) regardless of physically or specially defensive spreads. However, SpDef Ferrothorn performs much worse against mons that Ferro is uniquely equipped to check, such as Mimikyu and Gyarados, so you're hurting performance against critically important meta threats by going SpDef for the rather vague idea of being slightly less vulnerable against special attackers that likely won't amount to much most of the time. While some teams benefit from running more SpDef on Ferro for specific purposes, many of the teams that did that in Gen 7 did so for threats that are no longer in the meta (such as not being 2HKOed from HP Fire Fini or other weaker super effective attacks like that), so if you're running more SpDef you want to know specifically what it's helping you against. Otherwise the physically defensive set tends to be better for the BSS meta, again because of its better performance against threats like Mimikyu, Gyarados, and Excadrill.

Regarding the idea of sacrificing a Pokemon when setting up screens: once again, while 3v3 sounds better than 2v3 on general principle (and it is generally!), 3v3/BSS is often a very fast format where every turn is critical, especially when running an offensive strategy like screens into setup. So the difference between, say, a Gyarados starting behind screens at full health and coming in while taking 1/3 is huge because it can potentially give you an extra turn with no real downside. You can then leverage this extra turn into another boost, or saving health to better avoid being revenge killed, or in several other ways. It is also important to note that a pure screens setter like the Grimmsnarl you originally mentioned is almost completely useless in any 1v1 scenario, so keeping it around once you have set up your screens/T-Wave/Taunt/etc doesn't help you in the same way that keeping a mon alive normally would since it would just die in a 1v1 later anyway. This is why many dedicated screen setters have a clear way to get out and into the setup mon, whether that is something like a slow U-Turn to get out with initiative or even something like Memento/Explosion to self KO, and in the former case to lower the attacking stats of the opponent as well, allowing for even more chance to setup. Again, general thoughts aren't bad, but specific considerations/scenarios are more important, and in this case, the specific idea of keeping a passive screen setter alive after setup will very rarely be helpful; if anything it tends to just stall out your own screen turns, reducing your chance for setup with your main sweeper.

The best advice I can give you to learn more specifics about the meta though is to play lots of games. That way you can see a variety of these different interactions in gameplay and process how to deal with them in practice rather than in theory.

 

[raychap]

Hi. Another newbie to BSS here.
I have some basic in OU battle, but not so up to date. (I actively played in Gen3 when we played via “NetBattle” not Showdown.)
Anyway, I believe I have much less problem with catching up with the OU meta as there are information everywhere in Smogon.

However, currently, I am interested in BSS which apparently has totally different meta than Smogon OU. I tried to learn from some informative youtube, but my lack of meta/basic core made it really difficult as many pokemons are not viable in OU, but seem to be pretty common in BSS.

Is there any place to study/learn about the BSS meta for swsh? E.g. what does the following teams/pokemons do?

- Grimmsnarl team
- Charizard team
- Hatterene team
- Snorlax
- Mimikyu
- Braviary
- Rotom W/H
- etc.

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

Hi. Another newbie to BSS here.
I have some basic in OU battle, but not so up to date. (I actively played in Gen3 when we played via “NetBattle” not Showdown.)
Anyway, I believe I have much less problem with catching up with the OU meta as there are information everywhere in Smogon.

However, currently, I am interested in BSS which apparently has totally different meta than Smogon OU. I tried to learn from some informative youtube, but my lack of meta/basic core made it really difficult as many pokemons are not viable in OU, but seem to be pretty common in BSS.

Is there any place to study/learn about the BSS meta for swsh? E.g. what does the following teams/pokemons do?

- Grimmsnarl team
- Charizard team
- Hatterene team
- Snorlax
- Mimikyu
- Braviary
- Rotom W/H
- etc.

Hey man, nice to see you here. Since your post been sitting around for a day and I don't want you to not get an answer, I'll try answer your question as best as I can. I think the main problem you are probably encountering with the lack of information is because the metagame is very new. A full season hasn't even passed yet and therefore what is good and what the overall metagame looks like is still up in the air. There hasn't been a huge amount of time for stuff to be written up and Smogon BSS is generally heavily dictated by what top players in Japan and Korea do.

The best way to learn about BSS is to pick up a team, either a rental if you are playing on cartridge or a sample team if you are playing on showdown and put in battles. This will allow you to get familar with 3v3 in particular, which is the most important difference between OU and BSS.

As for studying particular pokemon and their sets:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/battle-stadium-analyses.543/

This is a good place to start if you can't read Japanese.

Grimmsnarl, Hatterene, Mimikyu, Rotom-W and Rotom-H writeups are up there at the moment although they are in their proofreading stages.

As for the rest, Charizard is a decent sweeper which boosts itself up with Max Air Stream as well as Max Flare giving it Solar Power Boosts on its moves due to setting up the sun. Generally Ancient Power and Solar Beam are coverage. Heavy Duty Boots is a decent item on Charizard due to its Stealth Rock Weakness. Snorlax you can run a myriad of sets, but mostly you are a normal damage soak capable of putting out a lot of damage back. You generally want either curse or yawn and then double edge + Fire Punch or Earthquake, if you are curse, you want to be recycle. Braviary is more of a doubles pokemon you don't see too much in singles.

I hope this helps you.

 

[raychap]

Hey man, nice to see you here. Since your post been sitting around for a day and I don't want you to not get an answer, I'll try answer your question as best as I can. I think the main problem you are probably encountering with the lack of information is because the metagame is very new. A full season hasn't even passed yet and therefore what is good and what the overall metagame looks like is still up in the air. There hasn't been a huge amount of time for stuff to be written up and Smogon BSS is generally heavily dictated by what top players in Japan and Korea do.

The best way to learn about BSS is to pick up a team, either a rental if you are playing on cartridge or a sample team if you are playing on showdown and put in battles. This will allow you to get familar with 3v3 in particular, which is the most important difference between OU and BSS.

As for studying particular pokemon and their sets:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/battle-stadium-analyses.543/

This is a good place to start if you can't read Japanese.

Grimmsnarl, Hatterene, Mimikyu, Rotom-W and Rotom-H writeups are up there at the moment although they are in their proofreading stages.

As for the rest, Charizard is a decent sweeper which boosts itself up with Max Air Stream as well as Max Flare giving it Solar Power Boosts on its moves due to setting up the sun. Generally Ancient Power and Solar Beam are coverage. Heavy Duty Boots is a decent item on Charizard due to its Stealth Rock Weakness. Snorlax you can run a myriad of sets, but mostly you are a normal damage soak capable of putting out a lot of damage back. You generally want either curse or yawn and then double edge + Fire Punch or Earthquake, if you are curse, you want to be recycle. Braviary is more of a doubles pokemon you don't see too much in singles.

I hope this helps you.

Thanks a lot for a reply!! It does help.
Currently I’m using rental team from some youtubers and working on great ball level.

I think 3v3 is not my key problems. Prediction/Switching are not that difference in my opinion.
My key problem is when you need to select your 3 pokemon after you see your opponent’s 6. That’s another type of mind-game in my opinion. Lack of meta knowledge really hurts me.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the response. I’m still practicing. ;)

 

[hexpug]

Hello! Another newbie to BSS! I have decent enough experience with some competitive battling but not enough to be able to team build or always make the best strategic decisions. I was wondering if I could get some advice on my team?

Spoiler

Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

Haxorus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Iron Tail
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Thunder Wave
- Leech Seed

Barraskewda @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Psychic Fangs
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab

Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot

I wasn't really sure where to start but I ended up with this. If you have any suggestions (which im sure you do considering my lack of experience lol) I would really appreciate it!

 

[Flamestorm7]

Hey there all. Long time lurker, first time poster but I've been hitting a real roadblock in the battle stadium and I need help. I've just recently reached ultra ball tier and can't seem to win consistently. My biggest weakness I've found has been weakness policy Dynamax sets, focus sash sets, and basic Mimikyuu. I was hoping to see if anyone could give me tips on how to get past these hurdles. My team currently is using stuff like WP Double Dance Aegislash, Scarf Dragapult, SubNP Hydreigon, DD Gyarados, Dual Screens Grimmsnarl and a Specs Gardevoir I have yet to replace. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[raychap]

Hi. I have played ranked a few games.
What is a great counter/ wall for either
- Dragapult (Mix or Special) or
- Sylveon

 

[Flamestorm7]

Hi. I have played ranked a few games.
What is a great counter/ wall for either
- Dragapult (Mix or Special) or
- Sylveon

Based on my own games, Sylveon is a free set up opportunity for Aegislash and can also be pretty well handled by stuff like Excadrill. Now moving on to Dragapult it's a bit of a different beast thanks to it's blinding speed. Generally the best option against it is priority. Some of the best options for this are Mimikyuu, Grimmsnarl and Bisharp. Mimikyuu I feel might be the best overall counter since it can get a free sword dance from disguise then OHKO with Shadow Sneak from full HP assuming no Dynamax. Grimmsnarl is also crippling due to priority thunder wave as well as sucker punch and spirit break. If you're worried about a sub disable set I'd recommend Sylveon to blast through with hyper voice. Finally the last great counter can be Dragapult itself. It generally is built glass cannon which can make it easy pickings for the choice scarf variants. Also sorry for the long answer but hope this is helpful.

 

[Aaraeus]

the GyaraFerroRotomH core seems more and more one of the big staples in the meta

I just tried it on a few BSS battles on Showdown and it's pretty formidable. I struggled against Dracovish though, not sure how to counter it.

I'm thinking of another BSS team that uses Galarian Corsola, but can't think of a last slot. Any suggestions? Corsola can handle D-Gyarados, but how can I handle Dracovish and opposing Hawlucha?

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Night Shade

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance

 

[SpeedFreak01]

Hi! I'm pretty new to this whole competitive scene, and wanted to give Doubles a go for gen 8.

I had some mixed success with an Alolan Persian-themed team in gen 7 (Persian, Alolan Marowak, Shiinotic, Toxapex, Jolteon, Glalie) that made use of Z-Parting Shot to support relatively frail attackers. It was a lot of fun, only stymied by the fact that I designed it around 6v6 singles, and online battles were 3v3 (whoops!).

Z-Parting Shot doesn't exist for gen 8, but I saw some similar potential in Gigantamax Alcremie with its Max Move, and some extra potential Doubles fun with Decorate! I also really like the idea of partnering G-Max Alcremie with a Guts Obstagoon, with the G-Max Move providing some extra survivability to compensate for the burn damage and Obstagoon's not-great defensive typing. Polteageist seems like a good specially-offensive candidate for the team too, with potential fun with Shell Smash and Stored Power in conjunction with Decorate.

However, I'm kinda stuck on where to go from there, especially since Doubles is entirely new to me. Any ideas for team members/advice for doubles team building? Thanks in advance!

Team so far!

THE CREAM (Alcremie-Gmax) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil (i know this is the less ideal ability but i have a 6IV alcremie ingame with aroma veil)
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Decorate
- Protect
- Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire

Party Cannon (Obstagoon) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Obstruct
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

Earl Grave (Polteageist) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Ball
- Giga Drain
- Stored Power

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I am probably only going to train up one Dracovish: Which nature and set will be more useful more of the time? Adamant or Jolly? Choice Band or Scarf? Leaning towards Adamant and Band because base 75 speed isn't winning many struggles.

 

[Flamestorm7]

Ok I need some help. I keep running into problems with Dynamax Duraludon. It feels like I can never deal with this Bic lighter. It just dynamax's and runs over my entire team even if I have stuff that hits it supereffictively. I just can't seem to find a counter

 

[murdoc_will_feed]

I am probably only going to train up one Dracovish: Which nature and set will be more useful more of the time? Adamant or Jolly? Choice Band or Scarf? Leaning towards Adamant and Band because base 75 speed isn't winning many struggles.

I've been using 252atk/252spd Adamant+Band with Thunder Wave support (Grimmsnarl, Clefable, Galvantula, I've rotated through a few) for some pretty good success when it pops off. It helps that you hit like a truck even when you're slower.