Battling strategy - Optimal time to use stat uppers?

Expertise

I figured this would be a good discussion topic, because it doesnt just involve EV spreads but a playing style - some people switch in their DDMence in on something afraid of it, DD on the switch then sweep... others might leave DDmence out, let it kill one thing then DD while the opponent sends out something less immediately threatening.

How do you all tend to get your stat uppers into play?

EDIT - not theoretically but in real battle
 
Well, Ninjask with sub... and SD. Other than that, I try to survive an attack, because I can't predict well (this was in 3rd gen)
 
Sometimes on the revenge, sometimes flyers/levitators on predicted Quakes, sometimes on predicted x4 weaks, sometimes on encore. All depends which stat-upper we're talking about.
 
My strategy with Azelf and Alakazam is for when the opponent doesn't have anything that can outrun them (and Blissey of out, of course). The problem is when facing Scarf users, but well, that can't be helped.
 
Generally the best time to stat-up is against a pokemon that isn't immediately threating to your own, i.e. one locked into a choice item. Predicting a switch-in to an ineffective move also does the trick. In the case of DDMence, luring something like a CB EQ (with an electric, steel, or poison type) or a grass attack (with Swampert or...Gastrodon, really) gives a good opportunity to set up, but you've always got to be wary of pokemon with ice attacks of their own.

In terms of timing, stat-upping in the early game usually doesn't work out very well just because nearly everyone carries a phazer or some kind of immediate threat to your boosting pokemon (especially Sharders in the case of Mence). However, I find it useful to attempt a stat-up somewhat early on just so I have some idea of what kind of pokemon I'll need to be taking out to allow a stat-upping sweep.
 
Intimidation.

Gyarados comes onto the field. Say, for lack of a better scenario, you have a fire pokemon, Charizard for instance. Now, you have two choices ahead of you.

Either A) Switch to a counter, who can drive the beast back, expecting a Super Effective attack.

or, B) Stay in, predicting the DD.

Now, the results.

A=Gyarados DD's on the switch, and proceeds to damage your Counter, who throws down with the beast and effectively Charge Beam/Thunderbolts it.

B=You've stayed in, only to give your opponent minimal damage to the bulky gyarados with a NVE move, or a neutral move. The only thing you gain by this, is small damage which gyarados may survive another/2 of, giving your opponent ANOTHER opportunity to DD. Then, it will DD a second time. Here, your counter is now up against a Speedy, STAB Waterfall off of 780ish attack, Let alone the possibiliy of Ice Fang/Earthquake, and almost assuredly Taunt. So, no phazers. The only thing that may help you in this case is Cresselia, who has the possibility of KO'ing with Charge Beam, but may not take the abuse of STAB +2/+2 Gyarados so well. Even so, they've wrecked your wall, and possibly another pokemon with it.

It's always better to switch, unless you're assured a KO by staying in. However, Intimidate lessens the chance of things like Charizard and Infernape from hitting too hard with Stone Edge after the attack drop.

Put them in a position where they risk losing a pokemon, and almost always, they'll choose to err on the side of caution.
 
The best time to set-up your sweeper is in middle-late game. It's not necessary to hide your sweeper until that stage of the battle, sometimes is best to attack with it (Garchomp using Dragon Claw or Earthquake instead of using SD) rather than start SDancing in order to scout things and hurt them. When you know that the opponent's counter for your sweeper is weak, then go with the set-up for the win.
 
StrangerDanger said:
Intimidation.

Gyarados comes onto the field. Say, for lack of a better scenario, you have a fire pokemon, Charizard for instance. Now, you have two choices ahead of you.

Either A) Switch to a counter, who can drive the beast back, expecting a Super Effective attack.

or, B) Stay in, predicting the DD.

Now, the results.

A=Gyarados DD's on the switch, and proceeds to damage your Counter, who throws down with the beast and effectively Charge Beam/Thunderbolts it.

B=You've stayed in, only to give your opponent minimal damage to the bulky gyarados with a NVE move, or a neutral move. The only thing you gain by this, is small damage which gyarados may survive another/2 of, giving your opponent ANOTHER opportunity to DD. Then, it will DD a second time. Here, your counter is now up against a Speedy, STAB Waterfall off of 780ish attack, Let alone the possibiliy of Ice Fang/Earthquake, and almost assuredly Taunt. So, no phazers. The only thing that may help you in this case is Cresselia, who has the possibility of KO'ing with Charge Beam, but may not take the abuse of STAB +2/+2 Gyarados so well. Even so, they've wrecked your wall, and possibly another pokemon with it.

It's always better to switch, unless you're assured a KO by staying in. However, Intimidate lessens the chance of things like Charizard and Infernape from hitting too hard with Stone Edge after the attack drop.

Put them in a position where they risk losing a pokemon, and almost always, they'll choose to err on the side of caution.
Click to expand...
What would be smart in that situation would be to drop a sub while they DD, belly drum when they DD again or break the sub, then attempt a sweep... though I see where you're going.
 
Epistaxis said:
What would be smart in that situation would be to drop a sub while they DD, belly drum when they DD again or break the sub, then attempt a sweep... though I see where you're going.
Click to expand...
Wow, you COMPLETELY tore apart his Charizard example. With /4 HP and a Custap Berry, you'd hit first and OHKO with (anything).

As for me personally, I go for the scare tactic. I try to set up for a sweep, but go for a sweep on the opposite end of what the foe expects. For example, I draw out their physical wall, then switch to DDMence. No sane person would put DDmence on Skarmory for example, so they switch to Blissey expecting a special attack. Then, here comes Dragon Dance 1... They either switch Bliss for Skarm or try to kill with Ice Beam.
My Mence is set up to take 70% max from Standard Blissey Ice Beam, and that's 35% max after Roost (cuts off flying weakness to ice). I can handle a second DD easily, then roost for two turns back to full health if I want. After two DDs, I OHKO Blissey with Claw and go on a killing spree, having Fire Fang for coverage (60% chance of OHKO Skarm with +2attack and SR). A lot of things die.
And if they switch for Skarm, they're dead. I DD on the switch (+2) and if SR is in effect it's a good chance of an OHKO. If I don't OHKO by some hax, I have to pray for a flinch before they WW me >_>

Just two scenarios that've specifically happened to me, though they were battling random morons on Serebii and I might have had less success in Smogon.
 
StrangerDanger's post seems to be more about prediction against a setup sweeper, rather than when to actually set up when you're using the sweeper
 
Glen ^^ said:
My strategy with Azelf and Alakazam is for when the opponent doesn't have anything that can outrun them (and Blissey of out, of course). The problem is when facing Scarf users, but well, that can't be helped.
Click to expand...

I would do that but I am always worried about Thunderwave/Sing from Blissey.

I switch in pokemon that I know can take some hits from the standard set. ie Gyarados against Charizard.
 
Well, what i meant was, if you're in no immediate danger, the best would be to Stat up then. I was just walking you through the immediate trains of thought your opponent would be going through, to show you the options. What i meant was, no matter what, if you Stat Up, you put yourself in a better position than if you dont.
 
I find that the best time to boost stats are...

1) If you send out a pokemon that can completely obliterate them (say, you switch in a garchomp on a blissey without Ice beam) you boost your stat.

2) If your foe sends out a wall to you (say, your foe switches in a blissey on your Porygon-z) you boost your stat as much as you see fit.

3) cling to the nails of your teeth with a focus sash to get one stat boost on a very fragile pokemon.

4) behind a sub.
 
Not always you don't.

I don't really like Stat-Ups in D/P because of all the fast revenge killers (Choice Scarf) and plain old hard-hitters (CB Heracross, Infernape). If I did ever use say, a Dragon Dance Gyarados though, I would never ever DD until middle-late game. Why? Well, obviously your opponent will just send out his/her counter to Gyarados, and you just effectively wasted a turn and will be forced to switch out of there.

And for the record, if a Pokemon can't take a +1 attack from Gyarados it's not a counter.
 
StrangerDanger said:
Intimidation.

Gyarados comes onto the field. Say, for lack of a better scenario, you have a fire pokemon, Charizard for instance. Now, you have two choices ahead of you.

Either A) Switch to a counter, who can drive the beast back, expecting a Super Effective attack.

or, B) Stay in, predicting the DD.

Now, the results.

A=Gyarados DD's on the switch, and proceeds to damage your Counter, who throws down with the beast and effectively Charge Beam/Thunderbolts it.

B=You've stayed in, only to give your opponent minimal damage to the bulky gyarados with a NVE move, or a neutral move. The only thing you gain by this, is small damage which gyarados may survive another/2 of, giving your opponent ANOTHER opportunity to DD. Then, it will DD a second time. Here, your counter is now up against a Speedy, STAB Waterfall off of 780ish attack, Let alone the possibiliy of Ice Fang/Earthquake, and almost assuredly Taunt. So, no phazers. The only thing that may help you in this case is Cresselia, who has the possibility of KO'ing with Charge Beam, but may not take the abuse of STAB +2/+2 Gyarados so well. Even so, they've wrecked your wall, and possibly another pokemon with it.

It's always better to switch, unless you're assured a KO by staying in. However, Intimidate lessens the chance of things like Charizard and Infernape from hitting too hard with Stone Edge after the attack drop.

Put them in a position where they risk losing a pokemon, and almost always, they'll choose to err on the side of caution.
Click to expand...

Another scenario:

You stay in with your Zard predicting his Gyarados will DDance so you setup a Substitute, as they break your sub, you Belly Drum and sweep his team.
What I'm trying to say is that you were really negative, sometimes taking chances can lead you to a win. So it's not always better to switch out ._.
 
Well, of course i was looking for a generic pokemon that Gyarados scares, picking Charizard haphazardly. There are tons of pokemon that fear Gyarados, i just tried to pick a fire/rock one off the top of my head. Obviously, if it were Zard, you're probably running a Bellyzard which wouldn't me the smartest thing to try and KO.
 
Personally, I find the only good times to use a stat upper are in the following circumstances:

Defensive uppers (amnesia/curse/calm-mind etc):
On the switch, plain and simple. I generally like to use a dual-stat-up like curse, bulk up, or calm mind on an opponents switch turning my one-sided wall into a general tank. (CMBro, anyone?)

Offensive uppers on the other hand, swords-dance and dragon-dance, I really only like to use when I:
  • Know I can take the hit, can KO the opponent with the next hit, and know they won't switch to a counter.
  • On a forced switch on something like Ghost-curse/leech-seed/memento/sleep/freeze/parattractfusion.
Otherwise, I almost always see it as more beneficial to simply use an attacking move you expect will be most effective on the incoming counter. For the most part, you'll have to switch on the first turn they're allowed to move anyway, so you might as well hit them on incoming, swap to your counter, and force them to switch all over again.

IE(Crappy example, but deal with it...) : Alakazam vs. Espeon
(Blissey in the wings.) So, you've got shadow ball and focus blast going on and you know the espeon is likely to switch to a blissey, who'd negate the damage if you use shadow-ball. At this point, you've got multiple options... you can calm-mind, or you can just use focus-blast on the incoming blissey. Calm-mind will increase survivability by a little bit, yes, but I think you're better off overall, dealing some damage and switching to a blissey-counter (Crappy example still, but limber-hitmonlee, anyone?)

This way, you're dealing light-nve blows on the opponent, while they, in effect, get to do nothing but switch and get slowly pummled.
 
this is when i stat up:

i have 3 layers of spikes down.
i have my steath rock down.
i have sandstorm in play.
then i paralyze everything.
then i whore stuff that takes a chunk out of everyones hp, example: super fang

at that point stat up cause i think i've won by then.
 
I think its important to establish a good knowledge of your opponent's team before you can attempt to use your stat-upper, knowing what your opponent intends to counter it with is important to help it accomplish its goals. This requires some sort of memory skill, and prediction, considering you will probably not know your opponent's pokemon and their sets before the battle.
 
Setting up a sweeper should be done when you are in a position to sweep with it. It is as simple as that. Unless you have a specific reason to think your opponent has no counter to your pokemon, then it is probably safe to say that they will have a counter to your pokemon. So what you want to be doing is just attacking to wear down this counter, until it is weak enough for you to set up and eliminate it.

Basically, always attack unless you know stat upping is going to pay off..

The exception to this is Baton Passing I suppose. A BPer probably should be stat boosting whenever possible, since should a counter come in your stat boosts are not lost (unless they roar you of course).

Have a nice day.
 
I'd say using stat-ups is a very situational tactic. You can't make a blanket "use them late game" type statement since there are so many things that could happen. What I find to be generally true is you should use a stat upper when predicting a switch, as long as what you think is coming in can't kill you anyway. Case and point is Infernape vs. Skarmory. If you know skarm isn't running drill peck, you know they'll switch. If they put in starmie though, your statup is wasted since you're forced out. You have to keep tabs on what your opponent is using and keeping track of all of their options.
 
I think speed boosters like Agility and Rock Polish, and to an extent, Dragon Dance, are slightly different.

If you previously cannot outrun the opponent, but can after a boost, then you should definitely take the hit and boost your speed. The only difference is if you strike back now or later. If you retaliate immediately, you may kill the opponent, but chances are the next thing you face will also be faster than you, in which case you are dead. But if you took the time to boost your speed, you can kill the opponent before they land the next blow, and be able to outrun the next opponent that comes out, allowing you to deal a significant blow before you go down.

In both situations, you take the same attack from the opponent and the opponent falls, but if you chose to increase your speed, you may be fast enough to attack again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top