Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Priority Aqua Jet - Bullet Punch - Extreme Speed - Fake Out -
Ice Shard -
Defensive
Walls Physical - Special - Mixed -
Pivots Offensive - Defensive -
Weather
Sun Drought - Chlorophyll - Solar Power - Sun Utilizers -
Other
Trick Room Setter - Utilizer -
BDSP UU Role Compendium guys finally here! Let me know if I missed any mon you think belongs in a specific section. Obviously I don't think I missed any UU mon but there are some RU mons that have a semblance of a niche so do be on the lookout!
Ambipom is not a wallbreaker. It’s so damn weak it lets just about every physically bulky Pokemon in for free. On paper it’s an offensive killer like Mega Lopunny in XY / ORAS. I say on paper because we all know in practice it will fail 8/10 times. I think priority would be its best place due to the Technician boosted Fake Out.
In Setup Sweepers, Mew could technically be in Swords Dance and Bulk Up section since it has a serviceable amount of physical attacks (Edge Quake, Shadow Claw, Waterfall, Drain Punch). No STAB tho so its weak (and mostly meme like Ambipom).
Lax could be Curse Setup Sweeper, still has Curse Body Slam Earthquake Crunch Hammer Arm.
I'd argue you can make setup CM Chansey work if physical threats are gone.
In Others section, I'd add Phazers and put Roar and Whirlwind users there.
EDIT:
Also a Status section since BDSP has removed Toxic on a lot of movesets. Toxic section, Wisp section, T-Wave section.
Just returned (Forretress) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball
Hazard setter with removal. Gyro Ball on the switch can put a lot of Mons in range to get killed by Scarf Rotom-H Overheat/Volt Switch or Band E-Speed Entei.
To the game (Rotom-Heat) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave
Standard Rotom set. Chose T-Wave over Wisp because the speed drop on para is more valuable for me (and half of my team is slow af). Plus I got Scald on Slowking so I can still get Burns.
No Idea (Slowking) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Scald
- Fire Blast
- Slack Off
Grass Knot is a move that I chose after seeing a lot of Blastoise and Swampert and knowing those 2 mons dont have recovery. Could swap it out for Future Sight/Psychic in the future (pun not intended).
what's meta (Chansey) (F) @ Lucky Punch
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
The special wall that can brute force her way a lot of the time with Lucky Punch crits.
(tbh I dont know why I want to make CM Chansey work but I instinctively feel that this set is really good. I dont know why pls help).
using standard set (Mew) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Defog
Beats common spikes/SR setters in Bronzong and Forretress with Taunt and Flamethrower provided they dont have Gyro Ball. I dont know if this is the correct EV allocation tbh. (also got me the win vs a scum Shuckle Contrary Rest Shell Smash Toxic Infestation set)
for now at least (Entei) @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
I might want to make this Jolly in the future in case of speed tie with base 100 Speed but its not punished as of the moment so eh.
Just made a new team upon returning and its doing quite well but its low ladder so it doesn't count.
Still need to play more because I'm as inexperienced as it gets.
This tier actually is really fun and brings me back to a simpler time of ORAS UU, before the time of immense power creep and heavy-duty boots.
Reflecting on ORAS UU, one of my favorite playstyles that gen was volt-turn. It was extremely versatile, with either an offensive approach (mega bee+raikou) or a defensive one (mega amphy+crobat). I wanted to try and bring a little bit of that playstyle back, but wanted to do it in an unconventional way. Hence, I wanted to bring Scyther to your attention:
Scyther @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- U-turn
- Quick Attack
- Night Slash
These two just work too well together, especially in tandem with a magic bouncer like utility Xatu (helps w/ Hera + defog support). Scyther sits at a comfortable speed tier that outpaces a large majority of the unscarfed meta while uniquely pressuring things like Mew/Nidos/Cress/Flygon.
252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 92 HP / 208+ Def Cresselia: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 194-230 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 244-288 (80.5 - 95%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Is scyther good? probably not. Is he niche enough that with support he can be a huge threat, wearing down checks to things that would otherwise stand in the way of a curselax sweep? yeah. It's been working for me in the top 50 of the ladder so I would be curious to see if anyone else has any sets that they think can carve out a niche in the meta like this
I'm playing a lot this tier in the BDSP UU Open and I have found it really enjoyable. I would like to share my opinions about the metagame and I think a personal VR is the best way to do it. So, here we are!
S Rank
(None)
S- Rank
Entei
Heracross
Flygon
A+ Rank
Blastoise
Mew
Mismagius
Sharpedo
Snorlax
A Rank
Nidoking
Porygon-Z
Raikou
Roserade
Rotom-C
Tentacruel
A- Rank
Absol
Crobat
Drapion
Gardevoir
Kingdra
Metagross
Milotic
B+ Rank
Cloyster
Cresselia
Empoleon
Forretress
Gyrarados
B Rank
Espeon
Gallade
Quagsire
Rhyperior
Rotom-H
Sceptile
Slowbro
Suicune
Swampert
Tauros
Torkoal
Venusaur
Victreebel
Zapdos
B- Rank
Aerodactyl
Chansey
Ditto
Exploud
Froslass
Granbull
Honchkrow
Swellow
Umbreon
Uxie
Yanmega
Zangoose
C Rank
Abomasnow
Ambipom
Arcanine
Bronzong
Gastrodon
Hariyama
Hippowdon
Magneton
Registeel
Sableye
Weezing
C- Rank
Houndoom
Kabutops
Linoone
Medicham
Shuckle
Ursaring
Volbeat
Xatu
Overall, it's a good meta. Blastoise is probably the only mon I would take a look at.
I'm playing a lot this tier in the BDSP UU Open and I have found it really enjoyable. I would like to share my opinions about the metagame and I think a personal VR is the best way to do it. So, here we are!
I mostly agree with this VR, at least near the top, though I personally haven't seen much of Absol so I don't know how good it actually is (maybe it's seen use in the Open and I haven't taken a look at that yet). My only thing is that Pert should be at least a little higher, though I don't know if that's just because of preconceived strength.
We lost Nidoking (rip my teams) but got Shaymin in return which could be a decent glue mon. Not a bad shift on the whole.
Now only if the ladder would stop spamming Ambipom and Arcanine. (I have a feeling they only have so much usage because they're the first two mons in the team builder...)
Losing Nidoking is a massive L for my Tropius team, so instead of going for its female counterpart of Royalty ill try out a new poison Type: Muk.
Im trying Mixed Muk atm but not sure what to do with it. Also learning that it dosent have Ice Punch hurts too, since Flygon is everywhere as a ground type that I wanted to lure :(.
I've noticed that the tier has a large number of dangerous offensive Pokemon, and while this post mentions each of their roles, I will go into more depth on how you use each of them, ordered from how good I think they are:
Best of the Best:
Heracross has two distinct, dangerous sets that every team should have a plan to deal with. Swords Dance + Guts is an unwallable set that will definitely break a hole open in the opponent's defensive core. Heracross comes in against any of the bulky Waters and Grounds and, after a Dance, will claim a KO on the spot with one of Megahorn, Close Combat, or Facade. While this set will get revenge killed soon after, its overwhelming power will make it easier for faster offensive Pokemon to clean up. Alternatively, Scarf Moxie is an excellent cleaner in the endgame that won't wear itself out due to burn damage. While this set is easier to switch into initially, it will sweep weakened teams once it gets going, with only faster Scarfers being able to beat it (hope you have a scarf Flygon!). Heracross is definitely a top 2 or 3 mon in this format and these sets are why.
Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Facade/Stone Edge/Throat Chop
Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Throat Chop
Shell Smash Blastoise is a great check to Entei that aren't locked into Extremespeed that, after setup, proceeds to sweep teams without a Defensive Milotic, Empoleon, or Cresselia on it. Its Speed after Smashing becomes 510, meaning that it outspeeds base 100 +Speed Scarfers. In other words, the only way you'll be revenge killing this thing are with +Speed Scarfers with 106 base Speed or more. In the UU tier, only 5 Pokemon (Crobat, Ambipom, Raikou, Espeon, and Froslass) can outspeed this thing with a Scarf, and none of these Pokemon want to hold a Scarf except to check a boosted Blastoise. What's more, this thing also gets Rapid Spin, so it can clear hazards for your own Stealth Rock-weak teammates. This thing is crazy, and you need a way to prevent it from setting up or getting an attack off, be it by walling it, popping its White Herb with Intimidate so that you can revenge kill it with Entei, or by Roaring it out.
Blastoise @ White Herb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin/Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere
Like Heracross and Blastoise, Entei has very few switch-ins to its powerful STAB Sacred Fire. Since Entei outspeeds Jolly Heracross with an Adamant nature, it doesn't worry about going Jolly and thus is even more dangerous. Entei has to be a bit careful around Milotic since Milo wants to be burned by Sacred Fire, but if Milo isn't in the picture, it gets to spam it with only other bulky Waters and Grounds to switch into it, which is great for a switch into Heracross or Shaymin. Entei also gets Extremespeed, which is a great move to have against chipped faster Pokemon, such as Flygon. Entei's coverage, while good, is more so to hit switch ins that don't care about Sacred Fire or Extremespeed. Entei has to also be played cautiously if Stealth Rocks are down, but it will still make decisions very difficult for your opponent.
Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
Mismagius's Speed stat makes it a solid check to Heracross and Entei, but more importantly, with either a Nasty Plot set or a Choice Specs set, will threaten bulky Pokemon. What's more, some of the better priority moves in the tier won't stop Mismagius without a good amount of chip damage. Mismagius is quite the threat in the tier, and should be respected.
Raikou is the fastest Pokemon on this list, meaning that it 1v1's nearly every mon here. With Sub-CM, it gets setup against bulky teams, but with Choice Specs, it can scare offensive teams off the bat with damage, and its ability to pivot around with Volt Switch. Scald scares Ground types that want to counter Raikou, and Shadow Ball is a fine final coverage move on Specs sets for beating Mismagius, Espeon, and other Ghost and Psychic types, or Extrasensory if you really need something to beat Guts Heracross or Roserade.
Giving Sharpedo free turns is probably the easiest way to lose a game, especially if you're running an offensive team. Once Sharpedo reaches +2 Speed, it outspeeds every Scarfer available except for Crobat, Jolteon, and Aerodactyl. Sharpedo requires careful play, because otherwise it will clean up weakened teams in the endgame. It also doesn't help that Sharpedo can attack on either side of the spectrum, and this little bit of unpredictability can give it enough room to start running through teams. Fortunately, it has answers on the defensive side, and Banded Entei is a reliable revenge killer with Extremespeed. If you have neither, you should figure out how you're going to deal with it.
The only thing more terrifying than Porygon-Z's sheer power is its set versatility. Between Specs, which severely threatens defensive teams, Scarf, which scares offense, and its setup sets, which gives up its immediate threat potential for game-ending potential, Porygon-Z's mere presence in team preview affects how you approach the game, since it could do well over 70% to your Milotic that you hoped would hold Porygon-Z off, or outspeed your Raikou that you hoped would check it. It also has great coverage between BoltBeam, and Psychic, Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball. Fortunately, it is pretty frail, so revenge killing it with Entei or Flygon is your best solution for it. However, it is still a powerful threat that will, if played against incorrectly, blow away any team.
Yanmega is similar to Porygon-Z and Heracross in that it has the ability to either deal serious damage to a lot of Pokemon, or clean up late in the game. In this case, Yanmega can either use a Choice Specs Tinted Lens set to wallbreak or a Speed Boost set to clean up teams. Unfortunately for it, you'll really want to remove Stealth Rock from the field, and your way to deal with it is to remove it with Entei or Flygon.
Snorlax is an unbreakable setup threat for those that don't have a fighting type or phazer. After its STAB, Curse, and Rest, its fourth move can be anything: Crunch for Ghosts, Earthquake for Steels, or Sleep Talk to abuse Rest. Lax is dangerous if you give it enough turns for it to set up a couple Curses, but can be dealt with with Intimidate and/or Roar, or Heracross or other Fighting types.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Crunch/Earthquake/Sleep Talk
Sets with Fewer Upside:
Drapion's STAB Knock Off means that, even when unboosted, very little wants to switch in to it. Compound this with Swords Dance, Drapion can challenge many of the most dangerous offensive Pokemon, especially since it outpseeds Heracross, Entei, and Porygon-Z, while also checking Mismagius. It won't sweep teams, nor break holes in defensive cores, but once it's in on the field, switching into it is as challenging a prospect as any other Pokemon on this list.
Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
Metagross could do a few things in the UU tier, and one of those things is hitting hard with Choice Band. The problem with Banded Metagross is that every offensive Pokemon will scare out Metagross, and bulky Waters can come into its STABs and wall it. However, Banded Bullet Punch is useful priority on a bulky Pokemon that, unlike Entei, is not weak to Stealth Rock.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Bullet Punch
- Zen Headbutt/Explosion
Sure, Flygon's trademark set is Choice Scarf, and Scarf Flygon is probably your best answer for the majority of the offensive Pokemon on this list. However, Flygon can also set up for its own sweep with Dragon Dance. While its lack of immediate pressure can leave you vulnerable against Raikou and Mismagius, you can bluff Scarf to give you a turn of setup (at least, the first time you use Dragon Dance on the switch). The only problem with Dragon Dance Flygon is that you aren't using Scarf, the most definitive set on the best Pokemon in the tier.
Gyarados is definitely a threat with Dragon Dance, especially if you also are running Moxie on it to further clean up teams. Against a wall, Gyarados can set up a Substitute or Taunt the wall to give it free turns to set up and break through, or not use either to free up an additional coverage move. However, its 81 speed is lower than Heracross, meaning that the beetle will beat Gyara if it doesn't have a Speed boost, or if the Heracross is Scarfed, Gyara just dies without Intimidate. What's more, Gyara is weak to Stealth Rocks, so getting forced out by Entei or Flygon means that Gyarados will have to deal with setting up again after taking more Stealth Rock chip. Finally, Gyarados hates getting burned, so trying to switch it into Entei is a bad idea more often than not.
Honchkrow is a really powerful wallbreaker, but is, of course, weak to Stealth Rock. While Honchkrow's low speed means that it gets outsped by all of the offensive Pokemon on this list, Honchkrow's powerful Sucker Punch means that whatever comes in to check it will take a heavy amount of damage, especially if boosted by Moxie. Of course, Sucker Punch can be baited and taken advantage of with Mons that use Substitute, like Mismagius and Raikou, but that's part of playing with Honchkrow. Alternatively, running Scarf can let it beat non-Speed boosted offensive Pokemon, and while it tends to get revenge killed by faster Scarfers, it can also just switch out to throw out its attacks later.
Honchkrow @ Life Orb/Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Night Slash
- Roost/Taunt/Defog
Not true offensive Pokemon:
Roserade doesn't utilize many ways to offensively threaten teams, and thus focuses on two things: spreading sleep and laying down spikes. These two moves are important for Roserade's offensive teammates to get more KO's. It also helps that it outspeeds Heracross and Adamant Entei and can thus also revenge kill them, while also checking Raikou.
Ambipom is a good lead-off Pokemon thanks to STAB Technician Fake Out, and U-Turn. That, alongside its good Speed, allows it to revenge kill a lot of the mons on this list. However, Ambipom doesn't have good bulk, meaning that it itself is prone to revenge killing, and also if your Fake Out doesn't KO an Inner Focus mon (namely Entei, Raikou, or Crobat), Ambipom will likely get KO'd. On top of that, Rock and Steel types can come into Fake Out to set up Stealth Rock, and Ambipom will have a hard time against lead Frosslass. Therefore, it's fine as a revenge killer if you're not using your Flygon as a Scarfer, and need a revenge killer.
Ambipom @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Double Hit
- Aerial Ace/Beat Up
FREE ARCANINE:
Please don't use Arcanine as an offensive Pokemon. If you want an offensive Fire type, use Entei or Rotom-Heat. It also doesn't check Entei because Intimidate doesn't work on Inner Focus, and using Flash Fire only works on Fire type moves (just Entei's Sacred Fire and Rotom's Overheat), and not on other moves or other Pokemon. Therefore, playing a bulky set doesn't work, especially since it's weak to Stealth Rocks. Please, just give it the chance to succeed in RU.
Other Mons (briefer analysis, unordered):
Espeon is usually played as a hyper-offensive screens setter or Specs attacker.
Gardevoir is usually played as a Scarfer.
Suicune usually runs its CroCune set, occasionally forgoing Sleep Talk for Ice Beam.
Zapdos usually runs a bulky set that provides utility for offensive teams, namely Defog and U-turn.
Why is blastoise so much better than Cloyster as a shell smasher? It seems like cloyster has much more immediate power, blastoise after a shell smash still misses out on a decent number of KOs it looks like
Why is blastoise so much better than Cloyster as a shell smasher? It seems like cloyster has much more immediate power, blastoise after a shell smash still misses out on a decent number of KOs it looks like
Blastoise has an easier time setting up thanks to better special bulk, blastoise speed tier also allows it to outspeed every scarfer with timid nature so it's harder to revenge kill and less mons that actually wall it.
Also I disagree with the point that blastoise misses KOs. Most offensive mons die to +2 Hydro Pump, raikou requires some prior chip and also dies if toise is in torrent range. The grass switchins die to +2 ice beam like mowtom and any non water bulky mon gets 2hkod and does nothing back.
Why is blastoise so much better than Cloyster as a shell smasher? It seems like cloyster has much more immediate power, blastoise after a shell smash still misses out on a decent number of KOs it looks like
Tbh, Cloyster has its perks when it comes to being a Shell Smash sweeper. Its higher physical bulk means that it's less prone to revenge killing by priority, and Icicle Spear misses less in comparison to Hydro Pump (if you're running that).
However, Blastoise has better special bulk (79HP/105SpD for Blastoise vs 50HP/45SpD for Cloy), a better defensive typing (Pure Water vs Water/Ice), isn't weak to Stealth Rock, and is faster. Cloy is marginally stronger (base 95 Atk for Cloy vs 85 SpA for Blastoise) but Blastoise is more consistent, which is why it's more used. I wouldn't entirely discount Cloyster, but it just seems as though Blastoise is used more often.
It's been 5 months since this post went up but I just realized that the team icons have a Roserade but the Pokepaste has a Tentacruel instead. I always thought that people were just using this team and taking out the Roserade for Tentacruel, but the original team has a Tentacruel. Do you think you could change it to make it correct?
Dusknoir @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Def / 28 SpD
Impish Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Night Shade
I believe Dusknoir should get a spot on the VR. It is one of, if not the best checks for the standard Heracross set. It has decent bulk thanks to it's massive defenses, and a deep suppotive movepool. It can run offensive sets with Choice Band, Calm Mind and SubPunch, or run standard bulky sets. It is reliably not 3HKO'd by Megahorn after rocks, and can use Pain Split to heal itself while hurting Heracross. It's Bulk also lets it be an emergency Entei check, as it is extremely unlikely to be 2HKO'd by a Choice Banded Sacred Fire. It's Ghost typing also lets it act as the bulkiest spinblocker in the tier, and being able to dent Forretress with Fire Punch. It's support moves let it act as a stopgap to many pokemon in the tier, with moves like Taunt and Haze to stop setup attempts from Cloyster and Blastoise, Disable stopping common Scarfers and even Entei, and Memento to act as a 'One-TIme Defensive Pivot' for offensive teams. Heracross' reluctancy to run Throat Chop over moves like Swords Dance and Stone Edge helps Dusknoir wall it more effectively. Since Dusknoir relies on Pain Split for recovery, it usually doesn't mind being in a low HP range, as it means it'll get more recovery. This opens up an item slot for things like Colbur and Sitrus berry, both of which making it a more effective wall to every kind of Heracross set. It's abillity Pressure allows it to reliably stop a Crocune sweep thanks to Haze.
As BDSP PL has concluded, Blastoise will be our first target for BDSP UU tiering action.
Suspect Reasoning
Blastoise is a strong metagame presence in UU as it is one of many good bulky water types residing in the tier. It has access to a variety of moves such as Rapid Spin, Shell Smash, and good coverage options such as Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, and Aura Sphere/Focus Blast. It can either be a Shell Smash sweeper that decimates offensive teams or have a utility role as a defensive spinner on top of being able to run physical and special variants viably. While its defensive set is not problematic, its Shell Smash set poses a massive threat when it has to be scouted out and puts a heavy strain on teambuilding.
Its speed base of 78 is relevant as a Shell Smash user as it is able to outspeed base 100 scarfers at +2 while running a non-speed nature such as Modest. This means the common Choice Scarf Flygon gets outsped and the best offensive answer to a boosted Blastoise is Scarf Raikou which is far from ideal. Defensive answers to Shell Smash generally include Milotic, Tentacruel, and Empoleon as a few examples. However, given Blastoise tends to run Dark Pulse for Shell Smash, it is very possible for Milotic and Tentacruel to get flinched and be unable to negate its boosts with Haze. Empoleon can attempt to use Roar it fears Focus Blast or Aura Sphere variants of Blastoise or risks getting flinched by Dark Pulse.
However, it is held back by the fact that it does not always have the easiest time getting onto the field and has limited opportunities to attempt a sweep with Shell Smash. If it is a defensive set, it can be very passive and be vulnerable to wallbreakers such as Heracross, Yanmega, and Porygon-Z or offensive threats such as Raikou.
In short, Blastoise is a presence in the metagame that can be hard to scout out on top of being an omnipresent threat in teambuilder that must be accounted and it’s shell smash set has limited counterplay.
Suspect Method
Since ladder activity is not particularly high enough for UU to support a normal suspect test, we have decided that the eligible voters will be those who are on the UU Council, Top 8 finishers of the BDSP UU Open, and all BDSPPL players that played UU matches during the course of this tournament. Mihowk6RoggenrolasToy Time KingTyCarterArcticBreezedunoksDannyElfuseonavaricejonfilchJP192berunkaChrystalFalchion this will be a total of 13 voters. 60% of the voting pool must vote ban in order for Blastoise to be banned. I will reach out to those who are eligible to vote via a PM and there will be a form for voting. The deadline for voting will be Saturday at 11 PM +0.
Because it is not a traditional suspect, it will not count towards a TC badge.
Suspect Discussion
While not everyone is given the opportunity to earn reqs this time to vote, everyone can be involved in this suspect. The main way to be involved in this decision is to post reasoning for or against the ban for discussion in this thread.
Side Note: because someone will inevitably ask this, yes there is a very real chance Heracross might be suspected shortly afterward. I am not 100% confirming that at this point in time.
Blastoise is funny- it can literally just go for Shell Smash in front of most of the meta with zero thought since it's tanky enough to eat whatever they throw at it (be it faster or slower since it can easily afford to use White Herb), and resume to bring terror with its Water/Ice/Coverage attacks. But what really stands out is that nothing checks Blastoise that well- scarfers are out of the question due to doubled speed, and while priority can work that's mostly limited to Entei and some much less viable options, which will also only save you if Blastoise was more aggressive enough with its setup for it to lose around half its health already.
Defensive options to deal with it are even more paltry. Bulky waters can kind of work since they can typically eat a Dark Pulse, but Tentacruel have no reliable recovery and can get blindsided by Earthquake, Suicune with its initial passiveness gives Blastoise ample opportunity for more Shell Smashes, and the other relevant water types save Milotic don't even stand up to one of its boosted attacks well at all (unless you're going to run SpDef Quagsire but I don't think I need to explain why that's not ideal). This means Milotic is basically the only good answer for Blastoise in the tier, pretty consistently being able to come in and haze if it doesn't get flinched by Dark Pulse. However, this can just delay the issue since Blastoise can come back and smash again later after being hazed, and also uh, having to run Milotic on every team to have a realistic chance of beating the silly turtle should you give it an opening isn't very fun, and you're even a little limited within that since Flame Orb Marvel Scale Milos may have a hard time staying healthy enough to ensure they can take the 60-70% damage from two boosted Dark Pulses.
tl;dr i love the funny turtle but he is too funny for uu get him outta here
can't believe I haven't posted here yet
I am obviously not a top 8 finisher in the UU Open, nor am I a BDSP PL UU player, but I will display Blastoise's numbers for the voters to consider.
Blastoise is obviously a big part of the tier. It is probably the best spinner in the tier and is also a solid check to Entei, so many teams use it as its defensive Water-type, especially since it compresses the roles of bulky Water, Spinner, and phaser into one spot (Empoleon is also a bulky Water and phaser while also clearing hazards, but its Steel-typing hurts it since it doesn't resist Fire and is weak to Fighting). Losing Blastoise would lose a big part of the tier. However, there's no denying that Shell Smash is really strong against both offensive teams and defensive teams alike.
Let's fire up the calcs. For this, we will use this Blastoise set:
The EV spread maximizes its bulk while also still letting it outspeed Scarf Flygon.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
While Shaymin could live Ice Beam with max HP/max SpDef investment, nobody uses that investment and if it was used, would leave you really weak to a lot of other offense in the tier, and forget about Rotom-Mow or Roserade. Either way, Shaymin isn't a real check to Blastoise.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 163-193 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Blastoise: 96-114 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Blastoise: 144-169 (48.1 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While Lax does have the bulk to eat Surfs, it doesn't have the strength to beat Blastoise one-on-one. Plus, your Snorlax is probably your sweeper, so getting huge damage on it to (potentially) not even beat Blastoise throws you way out of your gameplan.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Umbreon: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Blastoise: 127-151 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Umbreon is certainly a defensive check to Blastoise, since Foul Play does significant damage to a boosted Blastoise while not getting 2HKO'd super often. However, Umbreon isn't a counter to Blastoise either.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 141-167 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 102-121 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 122-144 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Empoleon is generally a fine check to Blastoise, albeit it isn't really the most splashable Pokemon in the tier. While Empoleon may not take too too much from Dark Pulse, it has no reliable recovery, and must run either Roar or Grass Knot (which is a move that apparently gets used on Empoleon) to actually beat Blastoise. What's more, Dark Pulse has that nasty chance to cause a flinch and ruin your Water type for a teammate, like Entei.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Milotic: 119-140 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- 33% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 42-49 (14 - 16.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
As can be surmised from these calcs, Milotic doesn't really do much to Blastoise. Milo sticks religiously to its Physically Defensive set, and so Blastoise just needs to be a bit lucky with Dark Pulse flinches (or bring in a teammate that breaks Milo) to win the matchup.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Blastoise: 112-133 (37.4 - 44.4%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even if you are one of the few players running a Specially Defensive Pert (most players stick with Physical Defense), you are statistically far less likely to beat Blastoise with Pert, and are merely hoping to Roar it out (if you are even carrying the move).
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 32+ SpD Blastoise: 122-144 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
88 SpA Blastoise Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 40-48 (13.3 - 16%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
I really don't understand the most-used Blastoise spread (Calm:252/0/136/88/32/0) but the calcs don't like it against a Shell Smash Blastoise, unless you're roaring it out.
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 123-145 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Tentacruel Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 78-93 (26 - 31.1%) -- 22.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Like Milo, you're really just hoping to stall out Blastoise, and an extra flinch can lose your Blastoise sponge and leads to you getting swept.
252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Blastoise: 157-186 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If you can bring in Blastoise for free against Flygon, then you just set up Shell Smash in its face and then destroy it with Ice Beam.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Blastoise: 126-149 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Adamant CB Entei's Espeed doesn't even do half, so you'll need a significant amount of chip damage in order for your Entei to be able to revenge kill it.
In short, on the defensive side, Blastoise's answers are few, and the few that exist are passive and can still lose to Dark Pulse flinches (or provide entry for Heracross). Meanwhile, Blastoise has very few Pokemon that can revenge kill it since it outspeeds Scarfers, and priority moves are unreliable, since Blastoise is a very bulky Pokemon, and thus needs significant chip damage to actually revenge kill. If I were voting, I would personally vote to ban since it puts a lot of strain when building teams and playing the match (Blastoise + Heracross is a nightmare to deal with together).
Also, if Heracross gets suspected, I want to ban that too, but one mon at a time first.
There are two announcements we have to make, first the result of the suspect vote, and second being the council's decision on Heracross.
The Blastoise suspect vote ended with 5/9 voters that partook voting Ban. This did not surpass the 60% threshold for passing a ban, and thus Blastoise will not be banned from UU for the time being. Blastoise may be reexplored by the council sometime in the future.
The UU Council has unanimously opted to quickban Heracross from UU. The main reasoning is that Heracross is the best wallbreaker in the tier thanks to Guts, more than ideal coverage be it stone edge, megahorn+close combat stab and facade, swords dance, on top of a respectable speed tier that allows it to not be deadweight against offense. It also can run a Choice Scarf set with Moxie that allows it to snowball and roll over the opposition. Its presence has also led to some players running Zapdos with Drill Peck and enough speed to ensure it can beat it safely but it also dislikes taking Facades on the switch.
The tier's lack of defensive answers against Heracross has led to an increased usage of Neutralizing Gas Weezing to a point where it was on pace to move up to UU if not for the new policy on rises and drops. This does not account for the fact that Heracross could opt to run Toxic Orb and have earthquake as a coverage option to deal with Neutralizing Gas Weezing. Crobat was another popular answer against Heracross since it resists both STAB moves but can get worn down from either Thunder Wave support or lose a lot of health from Facade or Stone Edge.
Granbull, despite having access to intimidate, has to remain near perfect health to be able to keep Heracross from wreaking havoc as it can lose to Swords Dance variants of Guts Heracross. Physically defensive Hippowdon is another common defensive answer used to deal with Guts Heracross but it often will find itself being forced to slack off repeatedly which can lead to it being exploited by Heracross' teammates be it the likes of Sharpedo or Roserade for example. Unaware Quagsire gets 2HKOed cleaning by either Close Combat or Megahorn. Scarf Ditto fails to kill Heracross given it does not copy its burnt status so it normally can not KO it back.
Teams often would have to bring faster offensive options be it Entei, Timid Porygon-Z, Mismagius, Raikou or scarfers like Gardevoir although most of those are limited to coming in from slow pivots or as revenge killers.
TLDR: Heracross has limited options that can switch in safely on it. It has led to massive constraints in teambuilding and force players to either run relatively niche options that mostly exist to beat Heracross solely or for players to run offensive teams to beat it. However, it is also not the easiest thing to get onto the field.
Tagging Kris and Marty to implement these changes.
OU still decides to be stingy with a lot of mons I would like to see like Staraptor and Togekiss but regardless, Celebi is the thing we get this time around. We already had Shaymin from a while back and these two grass mythicals function pretty similarly.
Identical stat spreads, pretty similar neutered movepools but Celebi has some unique sets to it that Shaymin lacks. First thing is Nasty Plot, which makes Celebi an actual threat to worry about. Losing Earth Power is annoying but the common steels like Metagross and Bronzong don't like Shadow Ball and Forretress isn't known for good special bulk. Having a Psychic STAB option makes it even scarier than Shaymin despite Shaymin's broken Seed Flare move. Pair Celebi with like Entei or smth and you can't go wrong.
Will it broken? I don't think so but we'll see how it goes. UU ladder is decently active among the BDSP ladders so finding games to test out our new toy won't be the hardest of all things. Happy laddering!!
It's been a healthy amount of time since Heracross has been banned. Couple mons I would personally consider winners and losers of this.
Winners
Zangoose (Toxic Boost) and other Guts users
The prime Guts user of the tier being gone opens the door for other Guts users be it Swellow, Machamp, Zangoose or Ursaring (Quick Feet is good too) to be considered more heavily. Zangoose does have a notable speed tier that is on par with PZ, Roserade which means Entei has to run Jolly on it's sets. Not to mention it also has the option of running priority if it so wishes with STAB Quick Attack and it does not get shut down by NG Weezing (more on that mon later). It's a very threatening mon that can very well be a menace in UU if it so wishes and it definitely can work in a metagame that has a fair share of fat mons although Zangoose has a limited amount of turns to wreck havoc, this doesn't even include the Belly Drum set .
Machamp is a bit more limited but can be a possible replacement, I've tried it in a few matches and it can do some work, especially against fatter mons like Hippowdon. Also, another fighting type that can hurt Snorlax is nice too.
Ursaring can be a guts user but may be better off as an SD Quick Feet user however since a Jolly Ursaring with QF active outspeeds base 105s. (Mismagius notably) Guts Ursaring is more limited to TR but either option could work. Once again survivability is probably gonna be the biggest concern with using Ursaring.
Snorlax
Snorlax appreciates Heracross being gone as it may potentially propel up to top-tier status in this metagame. Curselax does still need to have a way of dealing with Haze Milotic which is a prominent mon in this tier. But as a lategame wincon, it can get rolling even easier now.
Bulky Psychics and Bulky Waters
Cresselia and Slowbro thanks to Heracross' chokehold on the tier literally dropped to RU somehow. Anyways Heracross was basically any bulky psychic/bulky water's worst nightmare when seeing it on Team Preview since Heracross could actually survive a stray hit on the occasion. With that said, they basically have a much easier time functioning as glues or as bulky sweepers for their teams with it gone. Bulky waters however do need to be wary of Celebi now that it's dropped into the tier but it is much easier to play around. Milotic now has an easier time containing some of the physical attackers in the tier. Suicune since it got pressure can thrive with Pressure stalling and force Haze users into an awkward position and its overall bulk is solid. Mew doesn't technically fall under this category but is worth a mention too since it doesn't always have to run enough speed to creep Heracross anymore so it has more freedom in its sets.
Losers
Weezing
Weezing suffers the most from this ban since it lost one of its main niches in the tier which was checking Heracross and NG doesn't really shut down potential Heracross replacements such as Zangoose or Ursaring because of STAB facade (and Machamp is rather limited), it's become even more situational as Drapion outclasses it as a spiker and there are better Wisp spreaders in the tier.
Zapdos
Zapdos was already in an awkward place in the metagame since it invited in ground types for free and one of its niches involved running Drill Peck on stall because it has little moves to work with and no coverage whatsoever. Not to mention Raikou and Rotom-M and Rotom-H are better electric types in this tier that it is hard to justify a spot on teams outside of substitute roar sets designed to win PP wars for fat teams. (Which we did see in action in one of the PL games where it was crucial in winning out against Crocune)
There are probably a few I didn't mention but for the most part, most mons benefitted from Heracross being banned and there is potential for many mons from the lower tiers to possibly legitimize themselves as integral parts of this tier.
Hello, we have another announcement from the BDSP UU Council! As the BDSP Sendoff Tour is fast approaching, We decided to conduct a council vote on two Pokemon in the UU Tier that may be problematic for the tier in Raikou and Celebi. Celebi will not be banned for the time being but we will keep an eye out for it.
By unanimous vote, Raikou will be banned from BDSP UU. For as long as UU has been around, Raikou was always a threatening mon that can sometimes outright sweep teams. The 115 base speed it possesses makes it one of the fastest threats in the tier with the only things able to outspeed it being scarfers or Crobat and it’s 115 SpA is no joke either. STAB Electric means it threatens several bulky water types that are staples in the tier and generally restricts teambuilding. It has a variety of sets it can run such as Calm Mind+3 Attacks, Substitute Calm Mind, Choice Specs or an all-out attacking set. Its coverage is also quite good for UU as it learns Scald, Shadow Ball and Extrasensory which can punch through would-be checks. Typically Raikou checks include Celebi, Roserade, and Flygon just to name a few. However, Celebi would lose to Shadow Ball variants, Roserade is beaten by Extrasensory and Flygon no matter the set has to fear Scald burns.
This does not include the fact that Raikou also was able to gain Pressure with the Pokemon Home update. This is relevant as even Shaymin could get PP Stalled out by Substitute sets because of Seed Flare’s limited PP and Raikou was able to win Calm Mind wars against opposing Calm Mind users such as Cresselia or Suicune.
With this in mind, there are very few mons that can truly stand up to Raikou such as Storm Drain Gastrodon, Chansey and Snorlax. Storm Drain Gastrodon and Chansey both suffer from passiveness that can be taken advantage of and are not easy to fit onto teams while Snorlax can get pivoted on by Volt Switch. As a result, the most common way of beating Raikou is by outoffensing (mainly Physical attackers) it which is not easy to do, using priority moves (limited amount of users in the tier), or running Snorlax which is about as safe of a Raikou answer as it can get. We also believe that Raikou is not a healthy presence for the tier since it can be costly attempting to scout out the set on top of each set having very limited counterplay and different checks to be able to handle it. This is also including the fact that Raikou can sometimes just set up 1 or 2 calm minds and win on the spot depending on the coverage.
Tagging Kris and Marty to implement this change on Showdown whenever possible.
I definitely am a fan with the Raikou ban, since you can't really guarantee a solid way to answer it. The Grounds of the tier just can't risk switching in to Scald burns (the most common is Flygon, who already has issues with power on its Scarf set), and the Grasses that would otherwise handle it great can't reliably force it out (Raikou just PP stalls their STABs with Pressure). If Raikou begins to click CM then it's really difficult to stop, especially if it has Substitute, since it outspeeds most offense in the tier.
Celebi for me is either a solid pivot or a Nasty Plot sweeper (though it can also be a fine Choiced attacker, the difference between it and Shaymin is Psychic STAB vs lack of Psychic typing). I will concede that it is very versatile, but to me, it's not unbeatable in any of their incarnations. Nasty Plot is probably the controversial set, but to me, if you can't handle it, you don't seem to have decent speed control and/or are playing too passively to give it setup opportunity. The main counter to this point is that if you run into a Specs set, then you're gonna take a lot of damage. However, that argument could also apply to many other attackers (such as Garchomp/Infernape in OU). Generally, you're gonna build a team with speed control sufficient to handle Celebi (the most-used Pokemon is Scarf Flygon, and what is its most spammable move?).
Also is there like a description each of the suspect test voters gave for not banning Blastoise; I still kinda think it's dumb/restrictive on teambuilding.
