Pokémon Blaziken

[Maestro72]

^Isn't that pretty much the definition of entry hazards such as Stealth Rock?

Not necessarily, as Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes are not a death sentence and thus can be played around. Once your spinner/defogger has been removed, you can still take calculated risks and, despite the odds being against you, win.

With Blaziken, although it has tried and true counters and checks, you need those counters and checks in order to beat it. There's no playing around a pokemon at +2 Atk +1 Spd with fairly good coverage, great natural offense and decent natural bulk, unless you consider losing one or more of your team mates trying to bring it down, in which case, you're still in danger of losing to the rest of their team.

 

[Flamebot]

Sorry, I'll clarify. What I mean is that if you wait to bring in your Scarfer after Blaziken has already killed something, then Blaziken has probably already reached +2 Spe or higher since that whole process could take a couple of turns.

Ah so a baton pass to your scarfer?
Tho at +2 spe or higher, you really wouldn't need your scarfer I'd imagine.
Unless ofcourse you have a strong scarfer.

 

[Clockwork Seal]

Blaziken can just toss out High Jump Kicks and Flare Blitzes and do substantial damage to even some resists such as Salamence and Latias, and it'll often outspeed the opponent after the first Speed Boost so that it can land the second hit before they have a chance to react.

But regular Blaziken -won't- often outspeed an opposing scarfer after the first speed boost because it's only 80 base. Mega Blaziken has a much better shot at that, but if the argument is that -mega- blaziken is unstoppable then banning the mega stone would be the issue. Also, as mentioned in an earlier calc, intimidate salamence still exists and takes unboosted hits like a champ. And the only Gyarados that Blaziken even -can- 2hKO without boosts (but with stealth rock) is full offensive.

When a faster Scarf user comes in on Cloyster (and there are plenty of those), it either switches out or dies.

But that's usually the same situation for blaziken.

Really a lot of the arguments for a broken blaziken seem to run into some significant 4SS. If Blaziken is running Dual Stabs, it only has two more slots to choose from between coverage, protect, swords dance, and Baton Pass.

If a Blaziken has Swords Dance and Baton Pass, it -can't- protect to outspeed the scarf switch-in, and it is forced to leave. It also doesn't have any coverage, so it can be forced to pass or switch and give an opponent a free turn (a free sub for Flash Fire Chandelure, et cetera). And the things that are going to be switching into it that are outsped after one boost are things that generally don't rely on outspeeding their targets to begin with, so they don't really care if it passes speed. If you're not running swords dance, you're only passing speed. And the meta is shifting more toward bulk in general than in Gen V already, so fewer things care about being outsped. Without Protect, you don't have an answer to a faster scarfer switching in, you switch or die. Without Baton Pass, you can't pass your boosts if something pops in that doesn't care about your stabs. Without coverage, you open up more pokes who can come in and force you to make a sub-optimal decision.

Talonflame is everywhere, not just because of Blaziken but because it is an incredibly good check against Hyper Offense in general. It's not like Talonflame was #3 in usage in October just to stop Blaziken, it was there because Priority Brave Bird just rips holes in the 'speed + attack' metagame of Gen V. People aren't running Talonflame and Azumarill because of Blaziken since they're both used more; Talonflame and Azumarill have nothing to do with any overcentralization on Blaziken's part. They are just a part of the metagame that needs to be considered when determining what something can accomplish, just like how being killed by Bullet punch was such a big deal in Gen V when Scizor was around every corner.

Also, forcing out Blaziken also does help rack up damage, given that it damages itself with any HJK miss or with Flare Blitz Recoil attacking switches, while also damaging itself with recoil, while also resisting no entry hazards.

You could argue that Blaziken is broken -because- it can do many different things, and if you don't figure out what it is going to do before it starts it can ruin your day. But that was the same argument used for banning Garchomp back in the day, which clearly didn't stick. Blaziken might be worse than Gen V Garchomp, but Garchomp had the cute touch of not -needing- speed boost since it had Dragon Dance and a trolly base speed score to beat out scarfers, while also being immune to thunder wave and resistant to rocks, and existing in a meta where sticky web would never be a concern. Different stabs, different pokes, and Baton Pass mean that obviously it's not the same situation, but given the entire Garchomp saga I would think that actual discussion and testing would happen before just jumping on 'it should need to be banned because it's difficult to counter.'

I also find it odd that everyone keeps saying 'as if a blaziken user would fire off HJKs at switch-ins with ghosts around,' when ghosts are basically everywhere; especially with ghost's newfound amazing neutral coverage with steel's resistance going away. Flare Blitz has lower power and gets extra recoil (on top of hazards and life orb), but messing up HJK once can just kill you, since it can easily cause enough 'prior damage' to put you in revenge range of a lot more priority than just Talonflame and Azumarill.

 

[Garrus01]

Not only that, but HJK's negative side activates if the pokemon being attacked uses protect or detect. As a result, a pokemon weak to blaziken's fighting stab can just hit up a protect on the first turn, and then something which can threaten the weakened blaziken the next turn. Protect essentially turn's blaziken's attack on you into a free hit on it. Not sure how that would stack with say, chesnaught's Spiky Shield, but it's something worth thinking about. A pokemon with BOTH protect and detect could in theory troll blaziken out of a massive chunk of its HP. How much does a reflect cut Blaziken's damage anyway?

 

[Caius Gray]

But regular Blaziken -won't- often outspeed an opposing scarfer after the first speed boost because it's only 80 base. Mega Blaziken has a much better shot at that, but if the argument is that -mega- blaziken is unstoppable then banning the mega stone would be the issue. Also, as mentioned in an earlier calc, intimidate salamence still exists and takes unboosted hits like a champ. And the only Gyarados that Blaziken even -can- 2hKO without boosts (but with stealth rock) is full offensive.



But that's usually the same situation for blaziken.

Really a lot of the arguments for a broken blaziken seem to run into some significant 4SS. If Blaziken is running Dual Stabs, it only has two more slots to choose from between coverage, protect, swords dance, and Baton Pass.

If a Blaziken has Swords Dance and Baton Pass, it -can't- protect to outspeed the scarf switch-in, and it is forced to leave. It also doesn't have any coverage, so it can be forced to pass or switch and give an opponent a free turn (a free sub for Flash Fire Chandelure, et cetera). And the things that are going to be switching into it that are outsped after one boost are things that generally don't rely on outspeeding their targets to begin with, so they don't really care if it passes speed. If you're not running swords dance, you're only passing speed. And the meta is shifting more toward bulk in general than in Gen V already, so fewer things care about being outsped. Without Protect, you don't have an answer to a faster scarfer switching in, you switch or die. Without Baton Pass, you can't pass your boosts if something pops in that doesn't care about your stabs. Without coverage, you open up more pokes who can come in and force you to make a sub-optimal decision.

Talonflame is everywhere, not just because of Blaziken but because it is an incredibly good check against Hyper Offense in general. It's not like Talonflame was #3 in usage in October just to stop Blaziken, it was there because Priority Brave Bird just rips holes in the 'speed + attack' metagame of Gen V. People aren't running Talonflame and Azumarill because of Blaziken since they're both used more; Talonflame and Azumarill have nothing to do with any overcentralization on Blaziken's part. They are just a part of the metagame that needs to be considered when determining what something can accomplish, just like how being killed by Bullet punch was such a big deal in Gen V when Scizor was around every corner.

Also, forcing out Blaziken also does help rack up damage, given that it damages itself with any HJK miss or with Flare Blitz Recoil attacking switches, while also damaging itself with recoil, while also resisting no entry hazards.

You could argue that Blaziken is broken -because- it can do many different things, and if you don't figure out what it is going to do before it starts it can ruin your day. But that was the same argument used for banning Garchomp back in the day, which clearly didn't stick. Blaziken might be worse than Gen V Garchomp, but Garchomp had the cute touch of not -needing- speed boost since it had Dragon Dance and a trolly base speed score to beat out scarfers, while also being immune to thunder wave and resistant to rocks, and existing in a meta where sticky web would never be a concern. Different stabs, different pokes, and Baton Pass mean that obviously it's not the same situation, but given the entire Garchomp saga I would think that actual discussion and testing would happen before just jumping on 'it should need to be banned because it's difficult to counter.'

I also find it odd that everyone keeps saying 'as if a blaziken user would fire off HJKs at switch-ins with ghosts around,' when ghosts are basically everywhere; especially with ghost's newfound amazing neutral coverage with steel's resistance going away. Flare Blitz has lower power and gets extra recoil (on top of hazards and life orb), but messing up HJK once can just kill you, since it can easily cause enough 'prior damage' to put you in revenge range of a lot more priority than just Talonflame and Azumarill.

This is a great post, it really encompasses most of what I feel threatens Blaziken right now - and we're still early days, there could be even more that we haven't figured out yet.

While I'm fully prepared to see this thing go to Ubers if it does prove itself too strong for OU this gen as well... Thinking about all these things that open up counter-play options against a Blaziken really makes me think twice about it really being so broken that it has to rub shoulders with Rayquaza and Arceus.

 

[Darknut07]

But regular Blaziken -won't- often outspeed an opposing scarfer after the first speed boost because it's only 80 base. Mega Blaziken has a much better shot at that, but if the argument is that -mega- blaziken is unstoppable then banning the mega stone would be the issue. Also, as mentioned in an earlier calc, intimidate salamence still exists and takes unboosted hits like a champ. And the only Gyarados that Blaziken even -can- 2hKO without boosts (but with stealth rock) is full offensive.



But that's usually the same situation for blaziken.

Really a lot of the arguments for a broken blaziken seem to run into some significant 4SS. If Blaziken is running Dual Stabs, it only has two more slots to choose from between coverage, protect, swords dance, and Baton Pass.

If a Blaziken has Swords Dance and Baton Pass, it -can't- protect to outspeed the scarf switch-in, and it is forced to leave. It also doesn't have any coverage, so it can be forced to pass or switch and give an opponent a free turn (a free sub for Flash Fire Chandelure, et cetera). And the things that are going to be switching into it that are outsped after one boost are things that generally don't rely on outspeeding their targets to begin with, so they don't really care if it passes speed. If you're not running swords dance, you're only passing speed. And the meta is shifting more toward bulk in general than in Gen V already, so fewer things care about being outsped. Without Protect, you don't have an answer to a faster scarfer switching in, you switch or die. Without Baton Pass, you can't pass your boosts if something pops in that doesn't care about your stabs. Without coverage, you open up more pokes who can come in and force you to make a sub-optimal decision.

Talonflame is everywhere, not just because of Blaziken but because it is an incredibly good check against Hyper Offense in general. It's not like Talonflame was #3 in usage in October just to stop Blaziken, it was there because Priority Brave Bird just rips holes in the 'speed + attack' metagame of Gen V. People aren't running Talonflame and Azumarill because of Blaziken since they're both used more; Talonflame and Azumarill have nothing to do with any overcentralization on Blaziken's part. They are just a part of the metagame that needs to be considered when determining what something can accomplish, just like how being killed by Bullet punch was such a big deal in Gen V when Scizor was around every corner.

Also, forcing out Blaziken also does help rack up damage, given that it damages itself with any HJK miss or with Flare Blitz Recoil attacking switches, while also damaging itself with recoil, while also resisting no entry hazards.

You could argue that Blaziken is broken -because- it can do many different things, and if you don't figure out what it is going to do before it starts it can ruin your day. But that was the same argument used for banning Garchomp back in the day, which clearly didn't stick. Blaziken might be worse than Gen V Garchomp, but Garchomp had the cute touch of not -needing- speed boost since it had Dragon Dance and a trolly base speed score to beat out scarfers, while also being immune to thunder wave and resistant to rocks, and existing in a meta where sticky web would never be a concern. Different stabs, different pokes, and Baton Pass mean that obviously it's not the same situation, but given the entire Garchomp saga I would think that actual discussion and testing would happen before just jumping on 'it should need to be banned because it's difficult to counter.'

I also find it odd that everyone keeps saying 'as if a blaziken user would fire off HJKs at switch-ins with ghosts around,' when ghosts are basically everywhere; especially with ghost's newfound amazing neutral coverage with steel's resistance going away. Flare Blitz has lower power and gets extra recoil (on top of hazards and life orb), but messing up HJK once can just kill you, since it can easily cause enough 'prior damage' to put you in revenge range of a lot more priority than just Talonflame and Azumarill.

Ya it looks like people completely ignored these calcs. Since they are important, I'll post them again. These are some of the top pokemon in the metagame countering blaziken:

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 104-123 (31.41 - 37.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 136-160 (42.1 - 49.53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (NO STEALTH ROCK, 2HKO with)
Gyarados need 12 HP evs to survive 3 hits form Blaziken all the time -1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 105-125 (31.43 - 37.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (So everything but offensive DD Gyara or even that if it has lefties)
Slowbro 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 87-104 (22.08 - 26.39%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Maestro72]

Clockwork Seal The 4SS can actually work to Blaziken's advantage though, as the prospect of guessing wrong is equally strong against or with Blaziken. The key difference between the two, however, is that if the Blaziken user guesses wrong, they still have momentum built up from Speed Boost, but if the Blaziken user's opponent guesses wrong, they lose some momentum. And thus it comes down to guessing whether they have Protect, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, and/or coverage, which you can't be sure of until they use it.

 

[Caius Gray]

Clockwork Seal The 4SS can actually work to Blaziken's advantage though, as the prospect of guessing wrong is equally strong against or with Blaziken. The key difference between the two, however, is that if the Blaziken user guesses wrong, they still have momentum built up from Speed Boost, but if the Blaziken user's opponent guesses wrong, they lose some momentum. And thus it comes down to guessing whether they have Protect, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, and/or coverage, which you can't be sure of until they use it.

I believe his point was meant to illustrate how many of the arguments for a Broken Blaziken in this thread are almost taking for granted that Blaziken is going to have all of its utility options at its disposal, when really the most common Blaziken build is still probably Flare Blitz + HJK + SD + Protect.

Blaziken only has an answer for so many things and without giving up its boosting or stabs it's always going to leave a hole for one avenue of counter-play to take advantage of.

Also, I completely understand what you're trying to say by "4mss working in its favour" but I honestly believe that it's really more of an inherent Blaziken weakness than anything else. You can only cover your bases so much - and I think this is a good thing.

Oh I don't think I've ever entered a Wifi battle thinking "Wow, I'm so glad I can only choose 4 moves for my Blaziken, missing out on Baton Pass is really going to mess with my opponent" haha.

 

[Clockwork Seal]

Clockwork Seal The 4SS can actually work to Blaziken's advantage though, as the prospect of guessing wrong is equally strong against or with Blaziken. The key difference between the two, however, is that if the Blaziken user guesses wrong, they still have momentum built up from Speed Boost, but if the Blaziken user's opponent guesses wrong, they lose some momentum. And thus it comes down to guessing whether they have Protect, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, and/or coverage, which you can't be sure of until they use it.

I did mention that later on. That if an argument was to be made about Blaziken being overpowered it would have to come from the direction of the number of different sets it can run. Just keep in mind that, like I mentioned, that is -the same reason- that Garchomp was put up for his (eventually rescinded) ban before, and also that there are pokes that actually shut down -multiple- blaziken sets instead of each set requiring completely different checks/counters. Talonflame and Choice Band Azumarill really don't care what Blaziken is running of all of the non-coverage options, and are ALSO pokes that are useful and potent in the metagame for reasons that have nothing to do with blaziken so you aren't actually giving up much on your team by running them. And even if Blaziken is running coverage, it still has to fire it blind which makes it a prediction gamble on the blaziken-user's part. Yachechomp essentially removed this entire element from Garchomp and -his ban didn't stick-.

when really the most common Blaziken build is still probably Flare Blitz + HJK + SD + Protect.

I actually expect that once Pokebank comes out we'll see Thunderpunch over Protect more often than not, because Talonflame and Azumarill aren't going anywhere anytime soon and it is pretty clearly the best coverage option for them.

 

[Caius Gray]

I actually expect that once Pokebank comes out we'll see Thunderpunch over Protect more often than not, because Talonflame and Azumarill aren't going anywhere anytime soon and it is pretty clearly the best coverage option for them.

Oh I was just using the set as an example of how most Blaziken's aren't going to be throwing any super curve-balls your way with regards to their move-sets and like you mentioned in your original post - not having protect opens up one weakness, not having extra coverage opens up another.

 

[UltiMario]

Nah, ThunderPunch does jack shit for you and you're better off just throwing out HJKs or doing double switches on the chances that Ken has to come in- your opportunities to sweep are probably reduced to like a fifth of what they would be if you're not carrying Protect. The entire meta either has priority, is over base 80 speed, or just flat out is a blaziken check. You simply can't set up without Protect unless your opponent is an idiot.

 

[RockStarFish]

I don't really get these "you can beat Blaziken if you predict with ghosts" arguments. Saying that you need prediction to beat something doesn't exactly help its case as a balanced Pokemon. Besides, no OU ghost really beats Blaziken except for Jellicent, which isn't exactly the best answer to it. Most of them die to a Flare Blitz on the switch. In fact, all of them do, except Jellicent. Any competent player realizes that a ghost can switch in, so it's not safe to use HJK. Prediction works both ways, obviously. It's not like Ubers where you can just switch in Arceus-Ghost on an obvious HJK and always take out half its health. It's not that simple. Plus, because it has baton pass, (not that it wasn't broken without it) you can't just switch in something that resists its STABs and beat it. Outside of a whole TWO Pokemon, nothing can reliably revenge Blaziken. That's literally what makes it broken.

I'm not saying Trevenant is a good counter to Mega Blaziken, because it absolutely fucking isn't.

I'm saying that in the battle he linked to, there were two times where you could reasonably anticipate Mega Blaziken was going to use High Jump Kick.

The first was against Goodra, because a +2 Flare Blitz fails to OHKO 252 HP Goodra. The second was against Cloyster, because by that stage, the other trainer knew he was running Blaze Kick and not Flare Blitz, and a +2 Blaze Kick fails to OHKO Cloyster.

+2 252 Atk (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 306-360 (75.74 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk (custom) Blaze Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 195-229 (80.57 - 94.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And guess what? In both those occasions, Mega Blaziken did in fact use High Jump Kick. Swapping in to Trevenant on both occasions would have resulted in Mega Blaziken knocking itself out, because 4 HP Mega Blaziken has HP divisible by 2; 302.

My point to all of this is that while Mega Blaziken is indeed extremely powerful, smart players can easily neutralise it with correct prediction. The other trainer in that battle was not such a trainer, which is why he got swept.

 

[Quaetrix]

Blaziken is indeed strong but has too much counters and not so great coverage. First HJK can miss and it will, and Flare Blitz damages you, Blaziken is made of glass and on top of that you can safely switch in a lot of pokemon:
Gyarados, Azumarill, Vaporeon, Dragonite, Talonflame, Chandelure. And some other pokemon like Aegislash are a big threat for Blaziken, Flare Blitz doesn't OHKO and damage Blaziken a lot, HJK miss and you got Shadow Sneak to finish him. Plus it takes a lot on Stealth Rock.

No when you do manage to start a sword dance it becomes a real threat but seriously a Blaziken switch in should be always in your mind when facing it, and given your team and your pokemon actually on the field you will see him coming.

Not to mention that if you force Blaziken in, it is very unlikely that it will ever be able to Sword Dance.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

But regular Blaziken -won't- often outspeed an opposing scarfer after the first speed boost because it's only 80 base. Mega Blaziken has a much better shot at that, but if the argument is that -mega- blaziken is unstoppable then banning the mega stone would be the issue.

In that case, you're only really going to have one opportunity to bring this Scarfer in: the first turn. If you switch your Scarfer into an unboosted attack, you're going to take heavy damage or outright lose your Scarfer. If you bring it in on any other time besides the first turn, Blaziken will be at +2 and probably outspeed you. The only Scarf users that can outspeed +2 Adamant Blaziken are those with a base 108 Spe stat or higher, and if Blaziken is Jolly, you can just forget it. If Blaziken happens to be running Protect, even switching in on the first turn won't do you much good.

But that's usually the same situation for blaziken.

Not quite, as I've already explained. The only time this applies to Blaziken is if you bring it in on the first turn and don't get hit hard by an attack on the switch and the opponent isn't running Protect. The effectiveness of Scarf users is far more situational against Blaziken than against Cloyster, or any other sweeper for that matter.

You could argue that Blaziken is broken -because- it can do many different things, and if you don't figure out what it is going to do before it starts it can ruin your day.

That's just it, though. The danger about Blaziken is that not only can it do so many different things and respond to its usual checks and counters in different ways, but it does it with a single moveslot change. Whether the opponent's Blaziken is running Protect, Baton Pass, or a coverage move in that last slot drastically changes how you must play against it even in the best case scenarios. As the person defending themselves from Blaziken, you have no idea what you're dealing with until you actually see the full set. You must play against it under the assumption that it's running everything until you know exactly what it's using, and one mistake can cost you the game.

Keep in mind that this is just the SD set we're talking about here. We haven't even dipped into the possibility of MixKen or full on Baton Pass sets, which are excellent at supporting sweeping teammates.

But that was the same argument used for banning Garchomp back in the day, which clearly didn't stick.

Actually, the biggest problem with Garchomp wasn't its versatility. That was part of it, but the biggest problem with it by far was Sand Veil. A Leftovers Garchomp could make up to 5 Substitutes in Sand and, thanks to Sand Veil, you would have less than a 1/3 chance of breaking all 5. Once it got that one free turn, Garchomp tore everything to pieces. After Sand Veil and Snow Cloak were banned under the Evasion Clause, Garchomp was unbanned and never suspected again simply because the main problem with it was gone. The versatility arguments among individual sets were much more frequent in discussions about Pokemon such as Landorus-I, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, and Genesect, and each of these was banned from 5th Gen OU and stayed banned.

Blaziken might be worse than Gen V Garchomp, but Garchomp had the cute touch of not -needing- speed boost since it had Dragon Dance and a trolly base speed score to beat out scarfers, while also being immune to thunder wave and resistant to rocks, and existing in a meta where sticky web would never be a concern.

Garchomp doesn't actually learn Dragon Dance. Swords Dance Garchomp was the only boosting set it had.

 

[Caius Gray]

In that case, you're only really going to have one opportunity to bring this Scarfer in: the first turn. If you switch your Scarfer into an unboosted attack, you're going to take heavy damage or outright lose your Scarfer. If you bring it in on any other time besides the first turn, Blaziken will be at +2 and probably outspeed you. The only Scarf users that can outspeed +2 Adamant Blaziken are those with a base 108 Spe stat or higher, and if Blaziken is Jolly, you can just forget it. If Blaziken happens to be running Protect, even switching in on the first turn won't do you much good.

While I'll concede it can be quite limiting to -have- to switch in a scarf user first turn in order for it to function as a proper check/counter, I don't usually consider it that much of a cornerstone when considering what to switch in to an opponents Blaziken. If they're managed to switch in their Blaziken on something that amounts to little more than setup fodder against it for example: I'm getting the original mon' out of there ASAP and either switching in either priority, a ghost, a mon' that won't die OHKO unboosted and can hit back with Earthquake etc, or as mentioned: a scarfer. This takes a bit of a gamble and prediction for both players, Blaziken is fragile enough and doesn't score enough OHKO's unboosted to warrant it reliably sweeping without a SD.

Keep in mind that this is just the SD set we're talking about here. We haven't even dipped into the possibility of MixKen or full on Baton Pass sets, which are excellent at supporting sweeping teammates.

I'm actually torn on this point. It's clear to most of us discussing Blaziken in depth that its strength lies in the fact that its core function - a pretty heavy sweeper with team support via BP if chosen, can be quite hard to fully block if you're not running enough that can at least somewhat threaten Blaziken on your team. However I think I'm pretty safe in saying that what terrifies most people about Blaziken is that its STAB coverage gives OHKO's against a lot pokes' when boosted and it's silly difficult to try and revenge kill if it's racked-up some Speed Boosts.

Yes, Mixken is a thing and can clinch out some games via being unexpected and a bit of a curveball, but I certainly wouldn't take to the roof praising Blaziken as a Special Attacker any time soon. Without its core physical STABS coming off its decent base attack Blaziken is much less threatening. While Mixken can be harder to counter - giving up even one of your physical STABS, Swords Dance or even Protect allows more switch-ins. It takes a bit of prediction and the opponent still has to gamble sometimes but I still argue Blaziken's biggest strength is just how far it gets to stretch its dual STAB + SD set since one move slot free gives it coverage against at least some form of counterplay - not that it has the possibility of running Overheat to troll Pokes' who come in planning on taking the Physical hit.

 

[RockStarFish]

While I'll concede it can be quite limiting to -have- to switch in a scarf user first turn in order for it to function as a proper check/counter, I don't usually consider it that much of a cornerstone when considering what to switch in to an opponents Blaziken. If they're managed to switch in their Blaziken on something that amounts to little more than setup fodder against it for example: I'm getting the original mon' out of there ASAP and either switching in either priority, a ghost, a mon' that won't die OHKO unboosted and can hit back with Earthquake etc, or as mentioned: a scarfer. This takes a bit of a gamble and prediction for both players, Blaziken is fragile enough and doesn't score enough OHKO's unboosted to warrant it reliably sweeping without a SD.

I wonder if this kind of thinking will lead to some (Mega) Blaziken using Substitute, which foils people switching in Scarfers, priority users and Ghosts.

Very few Scarfers outspeed +2 Blaziken, and none outspeed +2 Mega Blaziken, which is what it'd be sitting at if you broke through the substitute.

That being said, Scarf Noivern outspeeds +1 Mega Blaziken and can OHKO through Substitute with Infiltrator Hurricane, I believe.

252 SpA (custom) Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 356-420 (117.88 - 139.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Agent Gibbs]

While I'll concede it can be quite limiting to -have- to switch in a scarf user first turn in order for it to function as a proper check/counter, I don't usually consider it that much of a cornerstone when considering what to switch in to an opponents Blaziken. If they're managed to switch in their Blaziken on something that amounts to little more than setup fodder against it for example: I'm getting the original mon' out of there ASAP and either switching in either priority, a ghost, a mon' that won't die OHKO unboosted and can hit back with Earthquake etc, or as mentioned: a scarfer. This takes a bit of a gamble and prediction for both players, Blaziken is fragile enough and doesn't score enough OHKO's unboosted to warrant it reliably sweeping without a SD.

This is true, but you have to remember what my original point was: Blaziken isn't just some run of the mill sweeper. A few people have asked about what makes Blaziken different from something like DD Dragonite or QD Volcarona, and the factors that set Blaziken apart form the crescendo of my points. Some of the basic methods of easily dealing with sweepers such as DD Dragonite, SD Terrakion, QD Volcarona, SD Garchomp, etc. can be worked around by Blaziken depending on what it runs in that fourth moveslot. I'm not trying to argue for Blaziken being broken (in fact, I'm not even sure we're supposed to discuss bans right now), but what I am trying to argue is that Blaziken is simply different. It essentially gets to pick and choose its checks and counters depending on what move it runs in that last slot, and most other sweepers simply don't have that luxury. There are certainly exceptions, as there usually are. It's possible to work around Blaziken depending on its set, your particular check/counter, and how well you and your opponent each predict, but you can't deny that Blaziken is generally a lot more of a headache to deal with than other sweepers.

I wonder if this kind of thinking will lead to some (Mega) Blaziken using Substitute, which foils people switching in Scarfers, priority users and Ghosts.

Actually, I started trying SubSD Blaziken out a couple days ago, and it works really well late-game. Substitute essentially removes any need for prediction and ensures that the opponent can't just pick it off with priority or a really fast Scarf user while the Substitute is up. A Blaziken behind a Substitute plays insane mind-games with Talonflame switch-ins. I can just use High Jump Kick as the opponent breaks the Substitute, and then they're put in a really awkward position. If they Brave Bird as I switch out to a Talonflame check, the damage from High Jump Kick and Brave Bird recoil ensures that it can't switch back into Blaziken safely the next time. If they Roost, they either give me a free switch or risk taking a High Jump Kick again, this time without the Flying typing. Azumarill switch-ins take a High Jump Kick as they break the Substitute with Aqua Jet and are at a risk of being KO'd if they switch in again since, unlike Talonflame, Azumarill can't heal itself. Scarf users have to waste a turn breaking the Substitute, and during that time I either get a free Swords Dance and Speed Boost if I can OHKO and outspeed at +2/+2, or I just do heavy damage to the ones I can't beat at +2/+2 and switch out. Either way, it protects Blaziken from potential checks. It also eases setup on Pokemon that attempt to status me. For example, I once caught a Ferrothorn that actually stayed in and Thunder Waved expecting me to predict a switch out and use Swords Dance. Thunder Wave failed, they switched out while I used Swords Dance, and the game pretty much ended right there since I had a +2/+2 Blaziken with a Substitute up.

Of course, it's not a perfect set, mainly because of the item choice. Leftovers is a lot more consistent and makes Blaziken really hard to just wear down, but the power output is pretty unimpressive. For example, while an Adamant LO Blaziken can knock off up to 50% of CB Azumarill's health with and unboosted High Jump Kick, Leftovers Blaziken needs Stealth Rock to even have a chance of hitting 50%. Life Orb can be used to fix the power problem, but Life Orb recoil can stack pretty quickly with Substitute damage and Flare Blitz recoil. If the Fighting and Fire Gems were released, those would work wonderfully with the set, similarly to SubSD Rock Gem Terrakion. Your best bet is probably just using Mega Blaziken if you have a free Mega slot. It has a slight bit more bulk, retains ~95% of the power of an Adamant LO Blaziken, doesn't take LO recoil, and can outspeed even the fastest of Scarf users at +2 without needing a Jolly nature. There are also a significant number of Pokemon it can outspeed at +0 that regular Blaziken cannot, which gives Mega Blaziken more opportunities to force switches or simply set up Substitutes to block attacks and stall for Speed Boosts.

 

[Flamebot]

Lol, a scarfed Ken would be an awesome Revenge killer wouldn't it?Th you would lose SD

 

[Magnemite]

Lol, a scarfed Ken would be an awesome Revenge killer wouldn't it?Th you would lose SD

Why would you ever use a scarf with Speed Boost? You essentially give up the freedom to switch moves for something you achieve normally after a single turn, which you can just protect on if you really need to outspeed something.

 

[Flamebot]

Why would you ever use a scarf with Speed Boost? You essentially give up the freedom to switch moves for something you achieve normally after a single turn, which you can just protect on if you really need to outspeed something.

I still think it would be funny, and protect once? I'm preyty sure there are still things that could outspeed it at +1.
Tho you would loose out on +2 attack.

I don't know anymore lol.

 

[PokeTrainer35]

I still think it would be funny, and protect once? I'm preyty sure there are still things that could outspeed it at +1.
Tho you would loose out on +2 attack.

I don't know anymore lol.

Choice scarf is +1 speed.

 

[Flamebot]

Does anyone think Knock off could work well on him?
I doubt it, but it could be interesting.
Knock off could help you deal with Sashers, and if the opponent is about to make you faint, you can knock off there item andit helps your other pokemon deal with that pokemon.
I could be wrong tho.

 

[RockStarFish]

Does anyone think Knock off could work well on him?
I doubt it, but it could be interesting.
Knock off could help you deal with Sashers, and if the opponent is about to make you faint, you can knock off there item andit helps your other pokemon deal with that pokemon.
I could be wrong tho.

And you are. If Knock Off were to OHKO from full HP, Focus Sash would activate before Knock Off removes it. Better to have SR support and just bypass it altogether.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Knock Off is actually a pretty cool idea. It essentially gives Blaziken a 97 BP Dark-type coverage move on the first hit and does even more harm by removing the opponent's item. Even after the opponent loses their item, it's still just 5 BP weaker than Shadow Claw.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 385-455 (97.71 - 115.48%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Woah.

 

[monkeyking240]

Why was my message removed?