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Blizzaga! - Hail Discussion Thread

tehy said:
Even though this will probably get deleted...

The point i was trying to make is that you're kind of basing your entire team around hail being UP. Seeing as your only weather starter has arguably one of the worst typings in existence, low defenses, and low offenses, it's really tough to keep it up. Also, ninetales and politoed and t-tar can all switch in pretty easily on it.

I get that there's no drawback in your weather, but having to be in your weather seems like a huge drawback already.
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1. Keeping weather UP is the point of ALL weather teams.

2. His defenses are decent enough to take a Scizor's BP and beware his offenses...their not as bad as they seem.

3. None of the other weather starters like Leech Seed; Toed and T-tar both hate Giga Drain/Wood Hammer.

4. That didn't stop Rain from dominating everything in Round 2 where Swift Swimmers were everywhere, and guess what...they became useless outside of Rain.
 
Volcarona usually carries HP Rock, so Gyarados is not a safe counter.
Out of sun, firemoth is not difficult to deal with a bulky water with pseudo-haze.

Chansey and Blissey are good checks, except to Rest/Morning Sun versions who can be dealt against when the moth is sleeping. They can Seismic Toss the moth and/or paralyze it. Morning Sun is crap in hail.

Also Landorus and Terrakion Scarf are good checks when Stone Edge hits.

The most important factor is keeping away sun when dealing the moth having hail team, and also don't forgot keeping on Stealth Rock onto the field.
 
You know kefka, when STAB wood hammer fails to KO my hippo, i stopped being impressed. Yeah, he has incredible variety in his moves, which would make him sort of dangerous...if he could KO a 252/4 skarm with blizzard with his scarf set. (His specs/band sets can do more, but are outsped by everything ever.)

His defenses are alright; but when you take all that sr and other hazards damage...

Toed and tar can take blizzards which was the point; not switching into abom directly. While we're at it, ninetales hates EQ.

But swift swimmers gain so much more of a boost, and have such a more durable starter, that it's sort of justified. Also, it's much harder to switch into them, with the exception of abomasnow.
 
tehy said:
Even though this will probably get deleted...

The point i was trying to make is that you're kind of basing your entire team around hail being UP. Seeing as your only weather starter has arguably one of the worst typings in existence, low defenses, and low offenses, it's really tough to keep it up. Also, ninetales and politoed and t-tar can all switch in pretty easily on it.

I get that there's no drawback in your weather, but having to be in your weather seems like a huge drawback already.
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Grass/Ice is a great typing. Sure most of you think, IT SUCKS, IT HAS 7 WEAKNESSES!,
True, but don't forget the other side, walling almost all Water and Electric pokémon in existence. Fuck U, Rotom-W without HP Fire!, Fuck U! water types of Rain Teams, that Abomasnow also takes away their weather what is nice, because they rely too much on ir.
The typing is like the case of Celebi, a lot of drawbacks but a lot of advantages.

Also don't forget Leech Seed + Hail. Also Grass + Blizzard are good STAB for coverage.

The times I used Abosmanow, never I though I was using a deadweight only for weather.
 
Yeah, i know it walls those pokemon, but it's got all those weaknesses and 25% from SR. Leech seed plus hail is pretty damn cool i'll agree, but it's not really fast enough to subseed well-i'll just send in heatran, outspeed, take a little damage but still.
 
tehy said:
You know kefka, when STAB wood hammer fails to KO my hippo, i stopped being impressed. Yeah, he has incredible variety in his moves, which would make him sort of dangerous...if he could KO a 252/4 skarm with blizzard with his scarf set. (His specs/band sets can do more, but are outsped by everything ever.)
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You know, tehy, when STAB Giga Drain rofl stomps Politoed and Hippo, I just laugh. I also laugh when you expect him to OHKO a Skarmory(Ignoring Sturdy btw).
His offenses aren't bad, but they're not godly either, which is what you're expecting him to be.

His defenses are alright; but when you take all that sr and other hazards damage...
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Yea, and when you take into account your spinners...

Toed and tar can take blizzards which was the point; not switching into abom directly. While we're at it, ninetales hates EQ.
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When Toed and Tar are alive, it's not BlizzSpam time.
That's when you play cautiously. Either way, they're not going to switch in because they most definitely don't enjoy Wood hammers/Giga Drains/Leech Seeds.

But swift swimmers gain so much more of a boost, and have such a more durable starter, that it's sort of justified. Also, it's much harder to switch into them, with the exception of abomasnow.
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That's not the point. The point is that they rely ENTIRELY on their own weather to succeed. No difference here, aside from weaker abusers.
 
Well, i expect him to do it with a base power 180 attack against a 334/177 defense pokemon.

And spinblocking rain spinners is pretty easy because they generally use tenta.

Oh yeah; and again, they're switching in to NOT aboma.

Finally, swift swimmers are high risk but high reward; blizzspam is slightly lower risk but not much reward either.
 
tehy said:
Well, i expect him to do it with a base power 180 attack against a 334/177 defense pokemon.

And spinblocking rain spinners is pretty easy because they generally use tenta.

Oh yeah; and again, they're switching in to NOT aboma.

Finally, swift swimmers are high risk but high reward; blizzspam is slightly lower risk but not much reward either.
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Oh, look. Scarf Kyurem can't OHKO Skarmory either (78.14% - 91.92%)
:(

Does that mean he sucks too? Oh wait, Skarmory can't even switch in on Abomasnow! 0 Sp.A Neutral Nature Abomasnow deals (47.90% - 56.89%) to that same Skarmory.

I don't know what rain spinners have to do with anything. I think you mean that all Hail users only use Tentacruel as their spinners. I personally prefer Forrettress who can set up on Ferrothorn and such and can punish Jellicent with Volt Switch(And I can then switch in Chandelure on the Jellicent and get some much needed momentum).

Oh yeah; and again, they're switching in to NOT aboma.
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I don't even understand this.

I don't know about that, but Specs Blizzard from Kyurem is super satisfying and deadly.

Now, if you'd be so kind to stop this useless Hail-hate and actually contribute to the thread, it would make me very happy :)
 
Adamant CB Abomasnow Wood Hammer against standard tyranitar (252/0 sassy):
116.3% - 137.1%

Adamant CB Abomasnow Wood Hammer against defensive politoed (252/252 bold): 114.6% - 135.9%

Adamant CB Abomasnow Wood Hammer against standard Hippowdon (252/252 Impish):
77.6% - 91.9%

Adamant CB Abomasnow Earthquake against standard Ninetales (252/0 calm):
102.9% - 121.1%

yeah, absolutely no weather summoner can safely come in on 'snow. It still has STAB Ice Shard so it can revenge dragons and the odd Landorus. The reason you run something like Abomasnow is because of how well it handles other weathers. It man-handles them. Ferrothorn? Run HP fire with a few EVs you can get that KO pretty easily. Water resist? Yeah set me up. Electric resist? Fuck yeah. 'Snow has some pretty solid resists thanks to its Grass-typing.
 
I tried some Hail earlier this year, I'm really liking this set...
Abomasnow (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def (0 Spd IVs)

Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Seed Bomb
- Ice Shard


No grass Pokemon will switch in to this so you go for the Leech Seed and Protect. :o
Assuming something switched in and they're not immune to Hail damage then they'll take 37.5% of damage while recovering a god part of your health.


And I'm really liking this set for hail teams:
Reuniclus (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Fire]


Lures most of the steels on OP's list and can beat it. Heck even Jirachi struggles against this (in my experience) seeing how Hail negates their Lefties and junk.
 
AfroThunderRule said:
I tried some Hail earlier this year, I'm really liking this set...
Abomasnow (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def (0 Spd IVs)

Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Seed Bomb
- Ice Shard


No grass Pokemon will switch in to this so you go for the Leech Seed and Protect. :o
Assuming something switched in and they're not immune to Hail damage then they'll take 37.5% of damage while recovering a god part of your health.
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I prefer Substitute over Protect.
 
Rotom-F could run this set in Hail:

Rotom-F @ Choice Specs/Scarf
Modest/Timid Nature
252 SpAtt / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Levitate
-Volt Switch
-Blizzard
-Thunderbolt
-Trick / Hidden Power Fire
 
Kefka Palazzo™ said:
By the way, how do you guys handle Volcarona and Reuniclus? These two can easily sweep through my teams :l

Offensive Volcarona often can't do too much, but ChestoRest is devastating. Tentacruel resists its STABs, but can't do much back other than Haze(which is illegal with T.Spikes IIRC) and Chandelure can't go through it if it does a QD.
I thought of Hariyama or Snorlax, but having no reliable recovery in Hail isn't very inviting.
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No, Haze is illegal with Rapid Spin. You can use a SD Tentacruel, but...

Reuniclus is easy to handle with Bug Bite Scizor, but another weakness to fire in a Hail team is not good, Wobbuffet is a good counter of almost all Reuniclus variants and is also faster than the green blob.
Deoxys-D can easy handle CM variants with Taunt, Recover, Night Shade and Pressure, since Focus Blast and Psychic have few PP, but fails a bit against Trick-variants, burn damage with Hail damage, lefties tricked to obtain a Flame Orb, is not good.
Mew can do the same but without Pressure.
Latias can CM and roaring Reuniclus away has nothing to fear bar TR or Psychoshock versions.
Also don't forget Alakazam, out of TR variants, the worst Reuniclus can do to it is to take away its Focus Sash/Life Orb to give an useless Flame Orb.
Escavalier KOes it with CB Megahorn and it is slow, so the Sparta pokémon will be faster on TR, and Reuniclus has to fear Pursuit. Beware of Trick Flame Orb versions though.
The rare Gardevoir with Encore is useful too but maybe useless against something else.
Victini can work too.
Shedinja can work too, but only for laughing in a Hail team.

Also the unreliable Trick or Switcheroo. Pseudo-haze can work while. Disable also.

Encore from unexpected Pokémon. Haze on bulky waters also work.

The key is to cripple it or hitting it too strong to its special side specially with (Blizzard) Specs not giving it chance to hit back, settig up or Recover off the damage.
 
Daedalus1 said:
Rotom-F could run this set in Hail:

Rotom-F @ Choice Specs/Scarf
Modest/Timid Nature
252 SpAtt / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Levitate
-Volt Switch
-Blizzard
-Thunderbolt
-Trick / Hidden Power Fire
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Rotom-F is pretty cool (no pun intended), but it faces way too much competition from Kyurem. All of Kyurem's stats are way better than Rotom-F's, and while BoltBeam gets better coverage than Dragon/Ice, Kyurem's raw power makes up for it. Rotom-F's ground immunity and neutrality to Steel attacks is cool, but when literally there's like, maybe 2-3 relevant Steel attacks (Bullet Punch, Iron Head, Flash Cannon), and at most 3-4 users (Magnezone, Scizor, Jirachi, and the occasional Lucario/Toxicroak), it's not really as good as resists to Water, Grass and neutrality to fire.

It's not completely outclassed, though, since it does get better coverage from its STABs, Trick and Volt Switch but yeah, pretty hefty competition. That, and Rotom-W and Rotom-H are pretty good hail mates - Rotom-W fucking up a lot of rain team members, while Rotom-H is good for eliminating Steels and taking Fire-type hits.
 
Froslass is boss.
Snow Cloak + Taunt + Substitute + Blizzard + Shadow Ball is just devastating.
I've swept so many teams with Miss hax it isn't even funny....okay it's hilarious. 3HKOing a Scizor that is spamming Bullet Punch, laughing at FerroCent combos, and being an overall troll. Froslass is just amazing.

Btw, do you guys think a "bulky" Substitute Kyurem could work? Not that he'll be actually bulky, but that he might be able to invest a bit more in HP and offenses.
Blizzard/Focus Miss/HP Fire/Sub?

EVs are well...216 Speed to surpass Offensive Heatrans(Maybe 326 if you want to surpass base 80s), 252 Sp.Attack, 40 HP, modest.

OR

Kyurem @ Leftovers
40 HP/252 SpA/216 Spe
- Blizzard
- Focus Miss
- Weak Power Fire/DPulse
- Substitute

Idea is to sub up on something that can't do too much to you, sub up, and hit the switch in with the appropriate move.
Ideas?
 
The problem with Froslass is the fact that teamslot? A team with three ice types (Abomasnow, Kyurem, Froslass), is just way too weak to entry hazards for my liking. What do you do when there's a spinblocker to stop your spinning?
 
Xephyr said:
The problem with Froslass is the fact that teamslot? A team with three ice types (Abomasnow, Kyurem, Froslass), is just way too weak to entry hazards for my liking. What do you do when there's a spinblocker to stop your spinning?
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What do you do? You abuse the fact that your opponent is forced to switch it in when your spinner(I use Forry) goes to do its thing.
There's only one very common spin blocker(actually, only one that can safely switch into Forry as Gengar probably wont like a Gyro Ball...yes, I only use my Forry for SR) and that's Jellicent. If I see a spin-blocker in Team preview, I'll usually use Volt Switch if their team is reliant on hazards.

Guess what Froslass can do from there: Taunt - Sub - Shadow Ball
Yes, I realize Froslass just lost 25% HP or more, but that's why I have SubCloak + Leftovers :P
Jellicent is either staying in to die or switches out to something that can easily be 2HKO'd by Blizzard/Shadow Ball and if he switches out to Ferrothorn, hoping to wall me, he'll be met with repeated Snow Cloak hax, Taunt, and getting 3HKO'd by Blizzard.
 
Granted, I do not use this on a hail team (i use it in rain), but I run Scarf Kyrume as my main Revenge Killer.

252 Speed/ 252 Sp.Atk/ 4 Def
Ice beam(blizzard on a hail team)/ Dragon Pulse/ Draco Meteor/ Focus Miss

It has so far been very useful. Not many expect it. Any thoughts or criticisms?

EDIT: I am giving this as a Hail poke, not a rain Poke.
 
So, a few things to note.

Firstly, rotom-F is scary as hell. Let's have more of that and less of kyuremu-the ability to neutrally hit just about everything and gather momentum is, in my opinion, even better than kyuremu's stats. Not to mention, he can actually switch in on something(Levitate, yall)

Secondly, an incredible reuiniclus counter is specially defensive sableye with the usual. Taunt plus night shade crushes standard CM reuini, and he can take shadow balls from the TR version. I find spDef tran w/roar to be a great answer to volcaronas.
 
tehy said:
So, a few things to note.

Firstly, rotom-F is scary as hell. Let's have more of that and less of kyuremu-the ability to neutrally hit just about everything and gather momentum is, in my opinion, even better than kyuremu's stats. Not to mention, he can actually switch in on something(Levitate, yall)

Secondly, an incredible reuiniclus counter is specially defensive sableye with the usual. Taunt plus night shade crushes standard CM reuini, and he can take shadow balls from the TR version. I find spDef tran w/roar to be a great answer to volcaronas.
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1. I prefer Kyurem's Grass,Water, and Electric resists, higher Sp.Attack, higher Speed, and higher lolbulk, though Rotom-F is pretty good too. Just depends on preference.

2. I was using Sableye and he worked, but I found myself constantly using Recover, switching him out, and not doing much except annoy the opponent a little bit. WoW always misses for me at crucial times so that didn't help him stay on my team :(
I'm using MG Alakazam in his place and I'm SO pleased with the results.
LO-4 Attacks is just devastating; Hail cancels Lefties, stops "lol i survive with 2%" bullshit, makes Chansey even more of a joke, and he's a check to Band Terrakion and Offensive Volcaronas(I'm assuming LO Psyshock OHKOs those).
 
Alakazam? A check to Volcarona? How? You switch in to Volcarona as it dances, you get OHKO'd by Bug Buzz.

Good check.
 
Xephyr said:
Alakazam? A check to Volcarona? How? You switch in to Volcarona as it dances, you get OHKO'd by Bug Buzz.

Good check.
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You described a counter.

Check =/= Counter

Alakazam can check Volcarona(assuming LO Psyshock OHKOs offensive variants since I haven't calculated it yet) by switching in as it kills something, me using Volt Switch/U-turn, or via a double switch.

Great Check.
 
A good hail mon is one that can eliminate other threats while being able to cover offensive threats:

Jynx @ Leftovers/Life Orb
252 SpAtk/252 Spe/4 Def

Nasty Plot
Blizzard/Ice Beam
Focus Blast/HP Fighting
Substitute/Psychic

Blizzard is good with hail, Substitute is nice to scout for switches. Focus Blast gets the hit on TTar without lowering your speed IV, and Psychic is backup stab (though +2 Ice Beam does enough to most fighting-types already).
 
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