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Breaking Down the Walls Project [Read post #129]

And Work Up Virizion does both.

While not the best Pokemon to use in the metagame, Aggron has an immense Head Smash, which is often its strongest attack when it's resisted.

255 Atk Life Orb Aggron Head Smash vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 53.29% - 62.87% --- 2 hits to KO (with Leftovers). I'm not sure how much CB Terra's CC does, but it can't be far from this.
 
Arcticblast said:
And Work Up Virizion does both.

While not the best Pokemon to use in the metagame, Aggron has an immense Head Smash, which is often its strongest attack when it's resisted.

255 Atk Life Orb Aggron Head Smash vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 53.29% - 62.87% --- 2 hits to KO (with Leftovers). I'm not sure how much CB Terra's CC does, but it can't be far from this.
Click to expand...

CB Terrakion's CC on Skarm is a 2HKO as well
 
Volbeat is an amazing asset when breaking down walls and stall situations; He can sub and/or encore, ruining their current stall forcing them to switch, and from there you can tail glow and bp out to something fast and powerful to sweep, something that at +3 or +6 wrecks even blissey. Volbeat does not focus on power or status, but still turns stall back on itself.
 
I would disagree that stall really struggles with volbeat. It's extremely predictable and will almost always get phased out. Running espeon with it would remedy that particular issue, but running the two of them together would cause you to struggle with more offensive teams since they both have paper thin defenses.
 
124.png

Jynx @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature
- Nasty Plot
- Ice Beam
- Lovely Kiss
- Substitute

Jynx is an excellent answer to rain stall teams as she can set up on standard components of these teams. Bulky Water-types such as Politoed, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, and Jellicent can't attempt to burn Jynx with Scald as Dry Skin grants her an immunity to Water-type attacks. Furthermore, bulky Water-types typically carry Ice Beam as secondary coverage (which Jynx resists). In addition, Jynx outspeeds all of the aforementioned Water-types and can use Substitute to block any attempted status. Blissey, one of the most prominent special walls in OU, can only 5HKO Jynx with Seismic Toss, which is more than enough time for Jynx to get to +6 and 2HKO Blissey with Ice Beam. The few rain stall Pokemon that Jynx can't handle such as Jirachi, can be simply put to sleep with Lovely Kiss. Lovely Kiss is what seperates Jynx from Toxicroak as it can also prevent phazing attemps.(c&p'd this from my analysis :p)
 
Nice thread, Jimera0! However, I have to say that some of the Pokemon listed on the OP doesn't really qualify as Wallbreakers. Breloom for instance is a terrible wallbreaker, due to the bad coverage that Fighting & Grass offers. Latias, Celebi, Dragonite, and Skarmory all handily beat it with ease. I also don't see how Vaporeon is breaking any walls if it can't do any damage in return - surviving the war of attrition is not the purpose of stall breakers; they are supposed to quickly eliminate or heavily disable the opposing defense, so that the opponent can't stop your team's offense. Rest Talking Gyarados is not a Stallbreaker for the same reason as Vaporeon.

Volcarona is a powerful mon, but its hard-walled by Gyarados, Dragonite, Chansey, and Heatran. Infernape suffers from 4 MS syndrome - without HP Ice it's walled by dragons; without Grass Knot it's walled by bulky Waters. Infernape is hard-walled by Latias regardless. I also feel Gyarados doesn't do well breaking stall either, since even with Taunt, Skarmory and Ferrothorn will outdamage Gyarados with Brave Bird and Power Whip, respectively, taking Gyarados out or ending its sweep short. Gyarados cant break Unaware Quagsire, either.

Put these mons in their respective weather, however, and they gain the capability of breaking through their former counters. Infernape loses its 4 MSS, as it can roast Dragons (and Water-types alike) with a Sun-boosted Fire Blast. Volcarona also gains enough muscle to 2HKO Chansey / Blissey after a QD and can resort to HP Ground for Heatran without worrying about getting walled by Gyarados (although specially defensive Dragonite may still be a nuisance). Darmanitan becomes an unstoppable force, too.

In rain conditions, Gyarados finally packs enough punch to beat Skarmory 1 on 1, and Quagsire also risks a 2HKO after little residual damage. Pokemon such as Adaptability Crawdaunt also begins to shine as wall breakers when it's raining. I think having a category for Weather Stallbreakers may not be a bad idea.

Sorry if I came out as nitpicking, but I just wanted to clarify the definition of wallbreakers.
 
Sorry Pocket but im going to have to disagree with you in not classifying Infernape as a Walbreaker. Using your example / definition:

surviving the war of attrition is not the purpose of stall breakers; they are supposed to quickly eliminate or heavily disable the opposing defense
Click to expand...

How does Infernape not fit this criteria? Infernape might have a few problems against a few pokemon (Tentacruel / Gyarados and Jellicent amoung them) but this does'nt prevent it from doing its job wallbreaking. Just because MixMence is unable to break through Porygon2 (iirc) does not limit its wallbreaking potential.

Can you clarify your definition Pocket, as by definition Infernape does break walls yet you said its not a wallbreaker?
 
Hmm I merely think that Wallbreakers should have little to no hard counters that can wall them, especially common walls. Although Infernape has exceptional mixed offense, It's delegated to scouting most of the time, because there are handful of mons that it just simply cannot break through. I guess if it runs 4 attacks then it can cover most of the defensive threats well, but it is still hard-countered by Latias.

I just never found Infernape adept at wall-breaking, but I may be underestimating its potential - feel free to disillusion me with your particular experience with Infernape. You got me there with Porygon2 walling MixMence, but I hardly ever see Porygon2, and it still risks a 2HKO after some residual damage (P2 at ~80% for instance).
 
I have a personal favorite physical Wallbreaker:

Escalivier @ Choice Band
252 Atk/252 HP/4 Def
- Magahorn
- Iron Head
- Frustration
- Pursuit

POWER, my friends, POWER!! 2X resists take tons of damage. In fact, only Skarmory and Heatran are the biggest obsticals. Take them out and then SPAM Megahorn!!

Megahorn does have acc issues, but it is like a bug/steel Haxorus.
 
Alright, I think I've got a plan forming here. So far I've been listing pretty much everything people have been suggesting (often because I don't have enough experience with the proposed Pokemon to say whether or not they count) but I have to agree that not all of them are ideal wallbreakers/stallbreakers.

So, how about this? I'll have to break the categories further down. Firstly we'll have two categories for confirmed successful Wallbreakers and Stallbreakers. These will be the ones most of us can agree qualify in and of themselves. Outside of these main categories, I'll have another two categories for Pokemon that do so with specific support or situations (mainly weather, but other things too, like last Pokemon situations and specific support from teammates such as hazards). Finally, I'll have a last category with Pokemon that Stall has trouble with but have not been confirmed into either of the other two categories. These Pokemon will include ones that have trouble with several important stall Pokemon, but can be an issue when said Pokemon are eliminated. Pokemon like Breloom will probably go here.

To do this I think I have to better define a Wallbreaker and a Stallbreaker. Wallbreakers do as Pocket said; they quickly eliminate opposing walls. However, a Stallbreaker CAN be a Pokemon that reliably wins the war of attrition; this is why I have Hydra-rest Vaporeon listed, as it's pretty much impossible for Stall to break through while it is able to defeat most walls by itself (Tentacruel is pretty much the only one it can't beat 1 on 1, and Tentacruel can't beat IT either). It won't do it quickly, but sooner or later it does win.

Essentially, Stallbreakers win against defensive Pokemon consistently without resorting to simple force, wheras wallbreakers have to be able to smash walls to bits quickly. I'll clarify these definitions in the main post now, but the categories aren't ready to be sorted yet. First, there's discussion to be held!

So fellow smogonites, which wallbreakers and stallbreakers can we all agree belong in the top categories? I'll define them now for clarification:

Wallbreaker: A Pokemon that can reliably break through multiple walls per a match without team support. They must be able to eliminate most (if not all) walls, and must be able to defeat at least the majority of walls in just one moveset.

Stallbreaker: A Pokemon that can reliably win the war of attrition against stall teams and Pokemon. They must be able to do so throughout the match, and be able to win against most, if not all walls with their various movesets. They must have at least one moveset that beats the majority of walls.

Here's some of my nominations for the categories:

Wallbreakers: Terrakion, Infernape, Salamence, Dragonite
Stallbreakers: Sableye, Gliscor, Mew, Reuniclus

Remember, we're deciding only the most successful members of their respective categories here. Ones that have the potential to hurt stall but don't do so consistently and without support do not fit here.

Now, discuss!
 
Jimera0, I like your approach. I think that we should indeed tier these Wallbreakers:

tier 1: All-Purpose Wallbreakers - We can virtually slap them into our teams to break almost any wall combination.
tier 2: Circumstantial Wallbreakers - They usually require proper weather conditions or an absence of a particular hard counter to break through the opposing team. Pokemon like Volcarona, Infernape, and Crawdaunt would fall into this category.
tier 3: Specialized Wallbreakers - They usually specialize in wallbreaking certain types of Stall teams. Virizion for instance can break Rain Stall, but would most likely have trouble with Sand Stall, which commonly packs Latias or Celebi to sponge Water / Grass hits.

Stallbreakers probably requires a less elaborate classification system, since they all function pretty similarly. I guess there could be Circumstantial Stallbreakers for Pokemon like Vaporeon, who requires Rain (I still don't know how Vaporeon beats stall, though x_x;;)

Also, I think the OP should post specific set(s) of selected Wallbreakers / Stallbreakers that does the job, since not all sets are meant for this role. Discussing specific sets would make this topic more focused, imo :d

Thanks for leading this discussion, Jimera0!
 
Pocket said:
Jimera0, I like your approach. I think that we should indeed tier these Wallbreakers:

tier 1: All-Purpose Wallbreakers - We can virtually slap them into our teams to break almost any wall combination.
tier 2: Circumstantial Wallbreakers - They usually require proper weather conditions or an absence of a particular hard counter to break through the opposing team. Pokemon like Volcarona, Infernape, and Crawdaunt would fall into this category.
tier 3: Specialized Wallbreakers - They usually specialize in wallbreaking certain types of Stall teams. Virizion for instance can break Rain Stall, but would most likely have trouble with Sand Stall, which commonly packs Latias or Celebi to sponge Water / Grass hits.

Stallbreakers probably requires a less elaborate classification system, since they all function pretty similarly. I guess there could be Circumstantial Stallbreakers for Pokemon like Vaporeon, who requires Rain (I still don't know how Vaporeon beats stall, though x_x;;)

Also, I think the OP should post specific set(s) of selected Wallbreakers / Stallbreakers that does the job, since not all sets are meant for this role. Discussing specific sets would make this topic more focused, imo :d

Thanks for leading this discussion, Jimera0!
Click to expand...

Yeah that's pretty much how I've already organized the tiers. I have the same system for Stallbreakers as Wallbreakers, with the top tier being catch-all solutions and the second being ones that require significant outside support. The third tier is actually going to be both Stallbreakers and Wallbreakers because at that point the line often starts to blur (for example, Breloom functions both as a wallbreaker and stallbreaker in some ways, but isn't really reliable in either position). Basically tier 3 is for Pokemon Stall doesn't really like, but also aren't reliable at preventing them from working entirely.

As for specific sets, I think we should get a general idea of what goes where first but that can certainly be an end goal.

And finally on a side note, trust me, Vaporeon in the rain beats stall out pretty reliably except for Tentacruel and Ferrothorn. If you have something to deal with those two, no stall team can beat you. It's primarily the combination of Toxic, Rest, and a Rain boosted Scald that does it; they can't hurt you but you can hurt them.

EDIT:

Now, I still need people to help me confirm a few for 'tier one' for both Stallbreakers and Wallbreakers. I'm proposing these 4 in each category to start:

Wallbreakers: Terrakion, Infernape, Salamence, Dragonite
Stallbreakers: Sableye, Gliscor, Mew, Reuniclus
 
So this isn't such an anti-stall fest, can we please note ways in which stall or defensive player can deal with these theats. For example, Heatran can be the answer to Sableye and Mew, I personally wither them down to low health with Celebi's gigadrain, and kill them off with something else.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
So this isn't such an anti-stall fest, can we please note ways in which stall or defensive player can deal with these theats. For example, Heatran can be the answer to Sableye and Mew, I personally wither them down to low health with Celebi's gigadrain, and kill them off with something else.
Click to expand...

Well it's kind of the point of the thread to be an anti-stall/wall fest. If you want to discuss how to better Stall/wall then I suggest you go to one of the other threads that already discuss that.

However things like Heatran being an an answer to Mew and Sableye should indeed be discussed... but in the context of better understanding their limits.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss BREAKING Stall/walls, not how to do those two better. So if it comes off as an anti-stall fest, well, it kind of is.
 
one thing: the only thing i have against vaporeon listed as a "stall breaker" is that stuff like chansey can switch in and pp stall it to death: sure, it may not be a lovely solution, but it is a solution nonetheless.
 
what about wobbufett? not exactly a wall/stall breaker in the traditional sense but it does have the ability to really ruin opposing walls using it's fast set. All it has to do is switch in, if they use an attacking move, encore it then countercoat them to death, if they used recovery, either encore and switch out or safeguard to block an incoming status. I've tried it before and Wobb is about the closest thing I've seen to a guaranteed removal of a wall
 
All-Purpose Wallbreakers: Terrakion - yes, Dragonite - yes, Salamence - yes ... Infernape - no (imo). I honestly don't see Infernape breaking up a stall team - it's gonna get 100% walled by Latias, which is a common Pokemon in stall, thanks to its unique special resistances. Infernape belongs in the circumstantial wallbreaker category, imo, where a stall team lacking Latias or Infernape used in a Sun team provides the condition for penetration :o

However, to add to the All-Purpose Wallbreakers, you could add Hydreigon (LO mixed). With Outrage scoring 2HKOs on Chansey (SR & Spikes), Blissey (SR), and Gastrodon, EQ removing TTar and Heatran, and Draco Meteor / Fire Blast to slaughter everything else, people would be hard-pressed in stopping Hydreigon outside of revenge-killing. Also Haxorus (SD) has the power to even break down Skarmory with a +2 Outrage. Combine it with Taunt, Draco Plate, Life Orb and/or Dragon Gem, and Haxorus rips through stall.

Specific Sets:
635.gif

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 104 Atk / 240 SpA / 164 Spe
Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake

Enough speed to outrun neutral base 100 mons, enough attack to achieve the 2HKOs on special walls, and rest into SpA. It could go Mild Nature to even pack more punch.

612.gif

Haxorus @ Draco Plate
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Taunt

Dragon Dance (2x Dance), Dual Chop, and Brick Break are all alternative options over Taunt. Lum Berry, Life Orb, and even Dragon Gem are all viable items on this set.

I was very tempted to nominate Latios as a Wallbreaker, but being Pursuit-weak and it's inability to 2HKO specially-defensive TTar really limits its capabilities. For this reason, it falls into the same category as Infernape as a circumstantial wallbreaker that can beat stall teams without TTar. It also struggles with Ferrothorn without HP Fire. SpecsLatios with Rain and Magnezone support is insane.

381.gif

Latios @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Surf
- Calm Mind / Trick / Thunder(bolt)
 
I didn't see this mentioned, but I think that Jellicent deserves a section. Like Mew, Taunt + Recover, as well as Will-o-Wisp will wear down stall. Jellicent can also spin block and annoy even some Offensive 'Mons
 
@Pocket:

Here let me make my case for Infernape. The top tier category does not need to be able to break through EVERY wall with a single set, as that's kind of ridiculous to expect. For instance, Terrakion cannot break through Tangrowth (as I know from rather extensive experience) but no one is doubting its top tier placement because of that. Now, if you were to give Terrakion HP Fire and Special attack investment, it COULD theoretically break it, but no one runs that.

Infernape, similarly can't break through every last Pokemon in Stall with any particular given set. He can however do so with the right set. I know from experience that Latias does not like U-Turn from Infernape unless you give it a really defensively bulky spread, and usually people don't because Latias' speed is one of its biggest selling points. And just because it can't break through ONE Pokemon should not stop it from being top tier; remember, the vast majority of teams aren't going to have that one Pokemon unless that Pokemon is something like Ferrothorn.

As such, I think Infernape belongs in the top tier, as it is able to punch through almost anything. You can pick whatever moveset you want depending on what walls trouble you the most too, thanks to his ridiculously varied movepool. That's why I consider him a top tier wallbreaker; you're never sure if you're safe with him or not.

I have to say I definitely agree with Hydreigon, though he's generally considered outclassed by Salamance in this role he's still perfectly capable of pulling it off with ease, and the surprise factor makes him spectacular at luring in Special walls to obliterate.

Haxorus I'm not so certain though, and this comes from experience using a Taunt SD set. The big problem with Haxorus is that it goes down way too fast to ensure you actually KO what you want to KO. He takes far too much damage from even weak defensive Pokemon's attacks, making Taunting extremely risky. Skarmory won't be beat if you taunt on the first turn when it uses Brave Bird. Its certainly got the potential, but its consistancy leaves much to be desired. I'm more inclined to put Haxorus in tier 2.

Latios I agree with the tier placement, as it's not really reliable at taking down walls. Part of this is because though it has options to take down pretty much any wall it faces, if it uses Life Orb it won't have the power for some and if it has Choice Specs it'll find itself locked into unfavorable moves far too often. Rain does fix this to a great degree though, as I know from experience there are few things more frightening than a Life orb Latios in the rain with Surf and Thunder. Even Specially Defensive Jirachi, who is usually a full stop to Latios, finds itself getting 2HKO'd.

I'm going to keep a little record of the votes for and against here (your vote is not set in stone should you change you mind).
Terrakion: 2/2
Dragonite: 2/2
Salamence: 2/2
Infernape: 1/2
Hydreigon: 2/2
Haxorus: 1/2
Latios: 0/2

I'll add more as we go along.
 
Same thing as other topics...would like someone to volunteer to go through thread, update as necessary, maybe talk more for current metagame status, etc.

These types of threads should eventually lead to articles.
 
Ah, thank you Aldaron, I was thinking about just going ahead and starting the article but I would like to hear more from people.

Alright everyone, big update on the OP! Read it now before posting anymore please, but DO take the effort! Something will be coming of this if you'll help me out with it!

So without further ado...

Nominations for Tier 1 Wallbreakers is now OPEN!

I'll list the nominees here. I'll be making my own nominations in another post though, to keep this one nice and clean.

Nominees so far:
Salamence
Infernape
Dragonite
Terrakion
Alakazam
Tyranitar
Haxorus
Latios
Hydreigon
Scizor
Lucario
Heracross

EDIT! I forgot to mention that at this point we're only nominating specific POKEMON not individual sets. Now, even if the Pokemon is only a wallbreaker with just one set, it can still be nominated (assuming that one set is good enough), but I just want to keep this more general for the time being. You can also nominate as many Pokemon as you want at once. This is another reason why I don't want specific sets, so we don't get flooded with variations on a single Pokemon.
 
Noming Mixed Salamence

The terror of DPP has lost nothing in the generation leap, if anything it gained slightly from the addition of it's Dream World ability, Moxie. Salamence possesses some of the strongest Mixed Attacking stats complimented perfectly by it's movepool. 135/110/100 backed by Dragon/Fire/Ground/Fighting coverage is tough to beat. Salamence thrives on having basically no safe switch-ins. A Draco Meteor or Flamethrower/Fire Blast will roast most physical 'mons, and an Outrage/Earthquake/Brick Break will wreck any specially bulky blobs who dare face this dragon down. Salamence is a Tier 1 Wallbreaker due to it's impressive stats, movepool and lack of safe switch-ins.
 
Having played loads with stall in the past I can say with fair certainty that there is no better wallbreaker in the current metagame than MixMence. It is simply devastating sporting a massive movepool, and outrageous offensive stats. base 100 speed isn't too much by today's standards, but against slow paced stall teams, more often than not he's faster than the whole stall team unless they're sporting a scarfer like Scarftar.

Infernape is a monster but with Jellicent being the most viable spinblocker, ape has a lot of trouble getting by. an NP GK set could be cool, but stall teams generally tend to have something set aside for ape, and if it's rain stall Tenta will just keep coming in.

The Hydreigion and Haxorous sets posted by Pocket are also great wallbreakers, but I feel stall should be prepared for CM latios.

That aside I want to stress how good of a Stallbreaker this guy is since I haven't seen much on him:
Jirachi-1.gif

CM jirachi is soooo good at breaking stall, and almost always beats rain stall unless they randomly have a quagsire or something which is pretty uncommon. The only things that can generally take him on are his age-old enemy heatran, jirachi with F-punch, quagsire, P-song cele, gastro with EQ, and maybe the odd hippowdon or ttar. that seems like a lot, but most stall teams will only have 1 of the above if any, and you can generally save rachi until late in the game. Even then the very rare Wish CM set can even shrug off weaker attacks such as SPdef rachi's fire punch, or spdef ttar's crunch.

ps. sorry if we're only supposed to be noming atm.
 
Alright, now I'll make my nominations.

Infernape
Primarily the various mixed sets it can run. It can run a great variety of them, covering virtually every defensive threat in the game barring Jellicent, able to be tailored to whatever walls you need broken most. It's very difficult to switch into unless you happen to have Jellicent, as usually what isn't KO'd by Fire Blast is KO'd by Grass Knot or Close Combat.

Dragonite
Many of Dragonite's sets are capable of wallbreaking, particularly the CB and Mixed sets it can run. Its mixed set is often overshadowed by Salamence in this regard, but it's really almost exactly as good at it as Salamence is, with what it loses in power and speed it makes up for in surprise. The CB set just wrecks shit up, enough said.

Terrakion
Terrakion is able to power through the majority of physical walls through the sheer brute strength and coverage its STAB moves provide it. Virtually nothing can take 2 hits from the appropriate hit of the Choice Band set, and the Sword Dance set is even more deadly if you give it the opportunity to set up. Really, this one goes without saying.

EDIT:
@ Nubagator, if you could format your post to be more like this one and Joeyboy's I'd really appreciate it, as it's hard to tell what exactly you're nominating seeing as you mention around a half dozen different Pokemon in your post. Also, I'm not sure if CM Jirachi really qualifies as a Wallbreaker; it's more of a Stallbreaker. Basically, Wallbreakers do it fast and hard, Stallbreakers take their time. There are better explanations on the OP.
 
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