Breeding in DP (Ditto glitch)

Cathy

Banned deucer.
The movesets aren't illegal if they can occur.

I am not sure how anything about intent follows from the comment about being tournament legal.

(We've strayed off the original topic here, but this is still an interesting discussion... perhaps more interesting than the original topic.)
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

Triple Threat
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Colin, I think you need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion. Rest assured that I had read your argument before making my previous post. It is grounded in opinion, not fact.

About glitches in general, I will say this: What makes something a glitch? Is it the lack of intention? Let's suppose that pokemon X can kill pokemon Y in one hit with Ice Beam. Did Nintendo intend this? Did they sit down and say "let's make the game mechanics such that pokemon X can kill pokemon Y in one hit with Ice Beam"? I doubt it. Instead, they sat down and developed a damage formula and this is merely a consequence of that. Let's consider something like this Ditto glitch. Did they sit down and say "let's make all combinations of egg moves possible"? I doubt it. But they did develop game mechanics that directly led to this being possible. In both cases what we mean by "intent" is actually indirect and irrelevant. That something is a "glitch" is a designation based purely on intuition and does not play into whether something should be banned.
See that 'and' there? That's where your logical leap is. You claim that "a 'glitch' is a designation based on intuition", therefore "[it] should not play into whether something should be banned." (I changed the 'does' to 'should' because it's obvious that it can come into play. It has up until now, after all.) Despite what you may think, it is not obvious how the first statement implies the second. In fact, the first statement cannot imply the second because the first is a fact and the second is an opinion.

Just for fun, though, let's delve a bit further into your argument for the first statement, "A glitch is a designation based on intuition." This is not always the case. The definition of 'glitch' hinges on the intent of the programmers. If a mechanic works exactly as the programmers meant it to, then it is not a glitch. Conversely, a mechanic that functions in a way the programmers did not intend is a glitch. Without considering intent, the word 'glitch' is devoid of meaning.

Sometimes we know that a mechanic is a glitch because the programmers tell us so directly. However, this is not the case for our particular mechanic. Hence, your assertion that whether or not this mechanic is designated a 'glitch' must be based only on intuition is a fact.

If I'm not mistaken, you feel that since we cannot be 100% sure of the developers' intent, we should not be assigning this designation or taking it into account. However, I believe that it is likely beyond a reasonable doubt that the developers did not intend this mechanic to function the way it does. I have evidence to support this position.

1. The mechanic is not made known anywhere in the game or the instructions. The process of accessing it is not intuitive.
2. The mechanic was taken out of subsequent releases of the game.

#1 by itself is not very convincing, but when combined with #2 it starts to seem very likely that the programmers consider this mechanic to be a glitch and not a secret in the game. If you can give me one convincing reason that the programmers would go through the effort of removing this mechanic other than that they considered it a glitch, I may very easily switch my position on this topic.

As I have stated, there are no hard facts available with which to argue here. It is only my opinion against yours. Since the evidence makes it look very likely that this mechanic is a glitch (aka, that the programers did not intend it), I have no problem with giving it that designation.

This 'beyond a reasonable doubt' argument of mine is not a proof, but in this case it is all we have to go on. The US legal system works this way for a reason. It's not perfect, but sometimes it's all we have available to us. I consider using it preferable to black-and-white thinking.

Let's consider another implication of this focus on intent. Suppose that in the next version of DP ("Platinum") some learnsets are switched around, so that a pokemon can no longer learn a move it can learn in Diamond and Pearl. You could trade it over. However, since this move was removed, it was clearly unintentional and should hence be banned from all future play. Right?
There is a difference between a tweak to game balance and a glitch. A tweak to game balance may be an attempt to change how the game is played, but the developers knew how the mechanics of the game worked when they made their 'mistake'. Not knowing how the mechanics work and being off about how movesets affect game balance may seem similar, but they are not the same thing. We can argue about this more, I suppose, but I think my post is long enough. Suffice to say that I would not blindly advocate banning the move that the Pokémon does not have access to in the new version. I, like you, have a distaste for banning a specific move or combination of moves on a specific Pokémon (outside the scope of a glitch like the one we're talking about here). That's my opinion.
 

Cathy

Banned deucer.
I think everybody knows what opinions are. What's the problem with making arguments to support our opinions? Stating an opinion is only a problem if it's done without an argument.

If you're going to be so condescending as to say "Colin, I think you need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion." then I will say to you: I think you need to learn the point of a discussion. It's where we exchange opinions, which are backed up by arguments. Posting opinions in a discussion is not something that needs to be called out with "watch out, it's an opinion!" every time. Something can be an opinion without an explicit designation as such: just because I haven't stated "this is my opinion", that doesn't change the fact that it is implicit by virtue of the fact that I posted an opinion. I assumed you hadn't read my argument because there was no other reason to object to the fact that I had posted an opinion in a discussion.

Your analysis of my argument is also wrong, because I am not constructing an argument in that last sentence. I literally mean two things. The "and" means "and". It isn't a "logical leap". The two things are namely (1) That it is a designation based on intuition. (2) In most competitive games, whether something is a "glitch" does not matter (for example, any fighting game). I didn't claim that you can deduce (2) from (1). They are both facts.

I think analysing developer intent is a far worse solution than just playing the game and banning things that are broken. But watch out -- that's an opinion! If I don't specifically point out that it is an opinion, how is anybody supposed to realise it?

And contrary to what you implied in an earlier post, I am actually interested in discussions. After all there didn't seem to have been any good discussion on this topic, so I thought I would bring it up. It doesn't mean there are malicious and sinister plans in motion as you implied in that earlier post.



Just to clarify, I was originally under the impression (due to mistaken information) that the extent of this glitch is limited. Since it's not, I don't consider this something that should be part of standard.
 

imperfectluck

Banned deucer.
I think the main gist of the issue of authorial intent is that many players like following authorial intent, as opposed to taking the game that Nintendo's developers made and making "modifications" to it. For instance, with an AR, 255 in all EVs are possible for all Pokemon, and this could be made available to everyone, isn't that "fair?" However, I have not seen this being proposed on shoddy. (I'm not saying that it should, because that is clearly not how Nintendo intended us to play the game.) Of course, this is all my opinion.
 
I think the main gist of the issue of authorial intent is that many players like following authorial intent, as opposed to taking the game that Nintendo's developers made and making "modifications" to it. For instance, with an AR, 255 in all EVs are possible for all Pokemon, and this could be made available to everyone, isn't that "fair?" However, I have not seen this being proposed on shoddy. (I'm not saying that it should, because that is clearly not how Nintendo intended us to play the game.) Of course, this is all my opinion.
That involves clear hacking with the use of outside devices. The said glitch does not require the use of an outside device.
 

imperfectluck

Banned deucer.
However, Pokesav can create flawless, 31 IV Pokemon with beneficial natures that are "impossible to hack-check" and have no difference from "legitimate" Pokemon. If there is no difference from a legitimate Pokemon, where would we draw the line? Why bother?
 

Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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Just to clarify, I was originally under the impression (due to mistaken information) that the extent of this glitch is limited. Since it's not, I don't consider this something that should be part of standard.
Why don't you think that, though? The way I see it your points are valid—authorial intent does not matter as far as simulating gameplay is concerned and the glitch would not make anything "illegal" because the movesets would be possible to obtain ingame without an external device. So I'm curious to know why you actually don't think this should be a part of standard if it does indeed simulate the game accurately (one of them, anyway).

And just so you guys are aware, on NetBattle there existed the "RBY with Trades" and "GSC with Trades" metagames. I don't know how many people played them because Advance was obviously the most popular metagame, but they were there. Then there were the "200 only" teams that people still used after "Full Advance" was in full swing, even if "200" wasn't on the actual drop down menu.

So, there is certainly precedent for allowing more than one standard metagame for a given generation, and that would probably solve the "problem" right there if you were actually really considering implementing the Egg Moves glitch and the Mimic glitch. People could just choose to play whichever standard metagame they wanted, just as in all three of the previous generations. Unless, for whatever reason, you refused to have two separate "drop down menu" options for the metagame...
 

Cathy

Banned deucer.
So I'm curious to know why you actually don't think this should be a part of standard if it does indeed simulate the game accurately (one of them, anyway).
By "standard" I meant the full extent of this glitch is probably not balanced (i.e. it would need a radically different ban list if it had to be balanced).

It would still be interesting to simulate though.
 

Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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I think it would be too, which is why I'm wondering why you're initially opposed to implementing it (purely from a hypothetical/discussion standpoint, of course). With so many pokemon getting better and "Moveslot syndrome" still being limiting factors, I don't think we can safely assume that the ban list would grow to ridiculous proportions off the bat. I don't really feel like going down the list to see what BL pokemon get better or which pokes would "cancel each other out" right now but I think it's fair to say that there'd be more than, say, 30 "viable" pokemon (though viable is hard to define when some BLs work in standard and other have a much harder time).
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

Triple Threat
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First of all, Colin, I apologize for the apparent condescension. I hope you'll take my word that I think you're a smart guy and that you know the difference between fact and opinion. The communications failure was on my part. I'm going to attempt to rectify this.

You're right when you say that opinions can be supported by facts. If you were trying to argue that a certain change to the metagame should be made because it would make the game more enjoyable for reasons A, B, and C, I'd be receptive to that. I might disagree for reasons X, Y, and Z, and we could discuss it.

However, this is not true of all opinions. For instance, let's say that I don't like lemon meringue pie. The world's best debaters could come to me and lobby on lemon meringue pie's behalf. They could tell me how creamy and delicious it is and give testimonials detailing how much they love it. At the end of the day, nothing they say is going to matter if I hate the taste of lemon and the texture of meringue.

The reason I'm singling you out with this distinction is that you're doing this when discussing overcentralization as well. If somebody has played the metagame thinks that it's stale and boring, no amount of statistics you quote at them is going to make them enjoy playing it. The opinion they developed from their experience trumps any argument that you could make. I don't think you can convince somebody that they're having fun.

I'd like to think I know what the point of a discussion is (although I could easily be wrong). What I question is whether this particular discussion can get anywhere. I think I've made fairly clear why I believe that the developers did not intend to include this mechanic. So in order for me to change my mind, you'll have to either convince me that the developers did not consider it a glitch or that I shouldn't care what the developers think.

With the exception of their failure to provide a balanced tier and to let us know what it was, I feel that the developers of the game have done right by me. If they considered this mechanic to be a bug that needed fixing, then I don't want to play with it. To address your earlier question, do I think the developers sat down and said, "Let's make the game mechanics such that Pokémon X can kill Pokémon Y in one hit with Ice Beam?" Yes, I do. They knew when they designed Pokémon Y that it was weak to the Ice type and that it had sufficiently low HP and Special Defense to go down to a sufficiently powerful, super-effective attack (or perhaps even a normally-effective, STABbed attack). I don't think they could have not realized this. They created these game mechanics and have been refining them for over a decade.

So basically, the developers' intent does matter to me, and I doubt that anything you say is going to convince me otherwise because I trust them in this regard and I want to play the game that I believe they intended. You've said that the developers' intent doesn't matter to you. Tell me, do you really think anything anyone could say would change your mind? If neither side is willing to bend on a point, then having a discussion about it seems a bit wasteful. Having a poll about it, however, might be useful.

I think the main gist of the issue of authorial intent is that many players like following authorial intent, as opposed to taking the game that Nintendo's developers made and making "modifications" to it.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Maybe I'm wrong about how much you can change most people's postion on whether or not they care about the developers' intent. To me, it sounds like you're trying to convince me that I like lemon meringue pie, but it was wrong of me to assume that others feel the same way.

As a side note, I'm currently writing a Java program that takes a Pokémon's moveset, tells you whether or not it is legal (breedable without this glitch), and outputs a breeding chain that produces it. It's not a simple algorithm, but it should get the job done.
 

Cathy

Banned deucer.
The main distinction you are trying to draw between types of opinions is just related to whether the opinions are rational. Basically, you like this variety of pie without a rational basis (e.g. you have not considered its nutritional value etc.) The only sorts of opinions we should be discussing at all here are rational ones because irrational opinions should be immediately dismissed. I support the definition of "overcentralisation" I do for a reason, not just because it seems better.

So in order for me to change my mind, you'll have to either convince me that the developers did not consider it a glitch or that I shouldn't care what the developers think.
Let's consider your analysis about whether this particular mechanic was "intentional".

Although the developers removed this mechanic from future versions, they left in the trade feature. The trade feature allows you to trade over these pokemon from the previous version. It is clearly intentional that you can trade these pokemon over. If the developers had not wanted you to be able to use these pokemon in the new version, they easily could have prevented them from being traded over. Since they didn't, they clearly intended you to be able to trade these pokemon over.

I doubt this is going to convince you, but it seems about as solid as your analysis above. The action required to block these "illegal" sets would have been very doable by a competent team of paid programmers, and if they had intended them not to be tradeable, they wouldn't be.

As a side note, I'm currently writing a Java program that takes a Pokémon's moveset, tells you whether or not it is legal (breedable without this glitch), and outputs a breeding chain that produces it. It's not a simple algorithm, but it should get the job done.
I've been meaning to do this for a while myself (it's better than the incomplete hardcoded approach we have in Shoddy Battle now). Hopefully you will contribute this to Shoddy Battle (i.e. release it under the GPL or a licence compatible with the GPL) so that we have a better mechanism for verifying illegal movesets. Does this consider interactions with advance? (If it doesn't it will still be useful; we'll just maintain that part of the hardcoded list.)

Maybe I'm wrong about how much you can change most people's postion on whether or not they care about the developers' intent. To me, it sounds like you're trying to convince me that I like lemon meringue pie, but it was wrong of me to assume that others feel the same way.
Actually, what I am trying to convince you of is that you should like lemon meringue pie, not that you do. And if you just refuse to like it in spite of the arguments that you should, you are merely irrational. Of course, we are all irrational with our food choices. I only eat one meal a day for example, because I think eating is a waste of time. That is definitely irrational, but I prefer it that way and since it is something that affects only me it's acceptable to defer to an irrational conclusion. As for developer intent, I would like to show that you shouldn't consider it, not that at present you don't consider it. These issues affect more than yourself, so irrational opinions are not acceptable here.

I think lots of people do change their opinion on developer intent, perhaps by playing other games. There are lots of games where glitches are a key part of the metagame, and after realising how you are just limiting yourself by sticking to the developer's intention, you might carry that philosophy over to other games. I've known people who complained about "glitches"... until they played Mario Kart DS and realised that snaking, despite being universally hated by scrubs, actually made the game better, and then carried a more nuanced opinion on what should be banned over to other games. I'm not saying you should go out on play Mario Kart DS, and in fact you probably should avoid that game since it's crap. But I do think people's opinions on this can change.

I also feel you are limiting your appreciation of literature by focusing on authorial intent, and really it seems to me a travesty to impose one interpretation on a work rather than analysing the work for what it is.

You might enjoy this classic essay on authorial intent.
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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If somebody has played the metagame thinks that it's stale and boring, no amount of statistics you quote at them is going to make them enjoy playing it.
This. Repeat it until it brainwashes you.

This would be needed to be quoted in practically all the other discussions as well.
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

Triple Threat
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The main distinction you are trying to draw between types of opinions is just related to whether the opinions are rational. Basically, you like this variety of pie without a rational basis (e.g. you have not considered its nutritional value etc.) The only sorts of opinions we should be discussing at all here are rational ones because irrational opinions should be immediately dismissed. I support the definition of "overcentralisation" I do for a reason, not just because it seems better.
Your distinction between rational and irrational opinions is an interesting one that I'd like to explore further. I posit that all opinions can be broken down into component parts. These parts consist of one or more preferences and zero or more hypotheses. A preference in this case is something that either pleases or displeases us on a basic level, but that we cannot back up with facts. A hypothesis, of course, is a guess or belief about something that has an unknown boolean value, such as "A is true", "A causes B", or "If we do A, B will happen." Hypotheses can be supported by evidence. Preferences cannot.

An opinion that contains a hypothesis might be something like, "Garchomp should be banned." This can be broken down into these parts: "If Garchomp were banned, the game would be less centralized." "I prefer a metagame that is less centralized." The first statement is a hypothesis and the second is a preference. You could say that an opinion is rational if the hypothesis is based on supporting evidence and irrational if it is not. However, the underlying preference portion of the opinion will always be 'irrational'. Things may work out as you predict, but that doesn't mean that everybody should like the outcome. Hence, there are no 'rational' opinions.

Your opinion is that we should ban as little as possible in order to make sure that there are at least X Pokémon in the top 75% of usage on Shoddy. If I'm not mistaken, you want this because you want simpler rules (a shorter ban list). However, you have yet to provide us with a reason that you want the rules to be simple. It could be that you hypothesize that simpler rules will make more users happy and you prefer more of your users to be happy. It could be that you hypothesize that fewer rules will minimize complaints and you prefer not to deal with complaints. I have no idea. Regardless, all of these opinions are reduced to an 'irrational' preference. Not everybody likes simple rules. Some people play Tic-Tac-Toe. Others prefer Double Fanucci. I enjoy the complexity level of Pokémon, and while I don't believe that we should be making additional rules for complexity's own sake, I have no problem with imposing bans that make the game more varied.

Your cutoff point of X≈50 is also arbitrary, as has been pointed out numerous times. If all irrational opinions should be discarded, why should we ban any Pokémon at all? The game will still be playable this way and the rules would be vastly simplified. 'Fun', being an intrinsically irrational thing, should not be taken into account.

Even the word 'simple' carries irrational preferences. I could argue that banning all legends and a handful of other Pokémon is no more complex than the individual ban list we have now. As someone who has played the game with a great variety of rule sets, I hypothesize that this would make for a much less centralized metagame without adding to the strict number of rules on the list.

Taking a step back, we could question whether a perfectly rational person would even play Pokémon at all. Does it help us accomplish our life's goals? In fact, our goals themselves are preferences. Even our drive to stay alive is nothing more than a very strong, hardwired preference.

In other words, everybody who plays Pokémon plays it for fun. (Yes, people who play to win are still playing for fun. They enjoy playing and winning.) To dismiss opinions that are 'irrational' is not only undesirable, but it will leave us with nothing to work with.

Man, that was long. Time to tackle the next subject.

Let's consider your analysis about whether this particular mechanic was "intentional".

Although the developers removed this mechanic from future versions, they left in the trade feature. The trade feature allows you to trade over these pokemon from the previous version. It is clearly intentional that you can trade these pokemon over. If the developers had not wanted you to be able to use these pokemon in the new version, they easily could have prevented them from being traded over. Since they didn't, they clearly intended you to be able to trade these pokemon over.

I doubt this is going to convince you, but it seems about as solid as your analysis above. The action required to block these "illegal" sets would have been very doable by a competent team of paid programmers, and if they had intended them not to be tradeable, they wouldn't be.
I actually think your argument about leaving in the trading mechanism is a very good one. However, when you look at it from the developers' perspective their decisions are easily explained.

Removing the trading function between Japanese and American versions would have been unacceptable. This international trading (and the Global Trade Center) was one of the much-lauded features of this generation of Pokémon games. Even if the developers had wanted to remove this in order to quarantine this mechanic, the higher-ups would never have agreed and the fans would have thrown a fit.

Preventing only the trading of Pokémon with illegal movesets seems plausible, but imposes strict limits on future versions. If the game were to contain an algorithm that finds illegal movesets like the one I'm developing, it would be able to detect and prevent the trade of Pokémon with these movesets. However, if a Pokémon were to receive a new move in the Platinum version of the game, this Pokémon could not be traded back to American copies of Diamond and Pearl unless and until this its internal learnsets were updated. I'm sure there are ways around this too, but you can see how it could quickly get very cumbersome. DS carts only have so much space.

It seems very likely to me that the developers wanted to remove this mechanic but did not feel that the cost was worth the benefit. Now it's your turn. Can you give me a plausible reason that they took it out of the non-Japanese version other than that they considered it a glitch?

I've been meaning to do this for a while myself (it's better than the incomplete hardcoded approach we have in Shoddy Battle now). Hopefully you will contribute this to Shoddy Battle (i.e. release it under the GPL or a licence compatible with the GPL) so that we have a better mechanism for verifying illegal movesets. Does this consider interactions with advance? (If it doesn't it will still be useful; we'll just maintain that part of the hardcoded list.)
Making my algorithm available to Shoddy Battle is absolutely my intention. I'm only too happy to provide it. I do plan to include 3rd generation support, although I have not included it yet. The main problem I've run into so far is getting the Pokémon learnsets into my program. For my tests I've been hardcoding them, and I'm thinking about using a .txt file to store it, but I'll see what Shoddy currently uses and try to hook into that whenever I can. (The algorithm I can handle, but interfaces are my weak point.)

Actually, what I am trying to convince you of is that you should like lemon meringue pie, not that you do. And if you just refuse to like it in spite of the arguments that you should, you are merely irrational. Of course, we are all irrational with our food choices. I only eat one meal a day for example, because I think eating is a waste of time. That is definitely irrational, but I prefer it that way and since it is something that affects only me it's acceptable to defer to an irrational conclusion. As for developer intent, I would like to show that you shouldn't consider it, not that at present you don't consider it. These issues affect more than yourself, so irrational opinions are not acceptable here.

I think lots of people do change their opinion on developer intent, perhaps by playing other games. There are lots of games where glitches are a key part of the metagame, and after realising how you are just limiting yourself by sticking to the developer's intention, you might carry that philosophy over to other games. I've known people who complained about "glitches"... until they played Mario Kart DS and realised that snaking, despite being universally hated by scrubs, actually made the game better, and then carried a more nuanced opinion on what should be banned over to other games. I'm not saying you should go out on play Mario Kart DS, and in fact you probably should avoid that game since it's crap. But I do think people's opinions on this can change.
You're arguing that I should like lemon meringue pie. To ignore rational arguments that I should would be irrational. My claim (as outlined above) is that there can be no rational arguments that I should like it. There could be rational arguments that I should eat it (nutritional value, etc.) in the context of my larger goals (not starving to death), but not that I should enjoy the taste of it. It seems likely that there is nothing I can do to improve my liking of it, so telling me that I should enjoy it doesn't accomplish much.

The fact that this decision affects more people than just me does not invalidate my opinion. As I have tried to show, your opinions are no more rational than mine (nor could they be). What it means instead is that we should put it to a vote so that the majority of users have their preferences met. If there is a significant percentage of people on both sides of the issue, perhaps there should be two metagames and/or a test period for a change like this.

I do not doubt that some 'glitches' can make a game better. I hypothesize, however, that this particular change would not improve my enjoyment of the game. I still draw a distinction between an unintended mechanic and a game balance decision. I think there's a reason that Crobat can't learn Hypnosis and Nasty Plot and that Azumaril can't learn Belly Drum and Aqua Jet. These decisions are every bit as real to me as the decisions not to give Medicham Close Combat or Gyarados Brave Bird.

Side note: I too try to minimize the time I spend eating. In the context that this frees up more time for other activities, I consider it a rational decision made to help achieve my (irrational) goals.

I also feel you are limiting your appreciation of literature by focusing on authorial intent, and really it seems to me a travesty to impose one interpretation on a work rather than analysing the work for what it is.

You might enjoy this classic essay on authorial intent.
You may rest assured that, for one reason or another, my stance on authorial intent does not carry over to my appreciation of literature. Perhaps this is an artificial distinction, and I do see what you're getting at. Just to nitpick though, what do you mean by analyzing a work for what it is? 'What it is' seems to imply that there is one correct interpretation that may or may not be what the author intended, but I think I may be reading too much into what you're saying. I'll take a look at that essay, though. Maybe that will clear some things up for me.
 

Cathy

Banned deucer.
Can you give me a plausible reason that they took it out of the non-Japanese version other than that they considered it a glitch?
I don't need to because I believe I have shown that it is far from "beyond a reasonable doubt" that this was intended to be removed. Your response is entirely speculation. The intentions of the developers are just not accessible here because they are sending mixed signals. On the one hand, you can't get these movesets in the new game, but on the other hand, they've done nothing to prevent you from trading them over -- it could just be a reward to people who bought the game early. We can't know, so we'll have to stop fussing about the intent.

Just to nitpick though, what do you mean by analyzing a work for what it is?
When you analyse a text or a game, what you should consider is only the text. For example, you should not consider the author's intent, or the historical context in which the text was written, because these things impose an interpretation onto the text that may not be evident by just analysing the text itself. In other words, you limit your appreciation of a text (or game) by imposing the author's interpretation on it, rather than analysing only the text.

I think there's a reason that Crobat can't learn Hypnosis and Nasty Plot and that Azumaril can't learn Belly Drum and Aqua Jet.
Here is a classic example of the problem of interpretation authorical intent. I do not believe that there was any intent to block specific movesets when breeding was developed. That certain combinations are impossible is merely a consequence of which egg moves they chose to give to which pokemon in the breeding group, and I find it more plausible that these were haphazardly assigned and then the results accepted, rather than starting with a list of things they wanted to be impossible and then giving out moves to meet that list.

We can't know which it was (and I contend that my hypothesis is more plausible), so your "distinction" is begging the question.

It could be that you hypothesize that fewer rules will minimize complaints and you prefer not to deal with complaints. I have no idea.
Except it might turn out that you actually agree with some of the things underpinning my opinion and realise that you were wrong to hold the one you currently do. For example, I maintain that one of the benefits of what I am advocating is that new players can learn the game more readily. Upon hearing that, you might say "Ah, he's right, that's a good reason... now I agree with him." That seems pretty unlikely, but if we discuss the reasons, it might turn out that they are actually convincing. On the other hand, it seems that instead you want to say that since all opinions can be reduced to an irrational hypothesis, we shouldn't even explore them at all--but I disagree because by exploring the premises, we might actually agree.

I would agree that ultimately all opinions are reduced to an irrational component, but merely holding a vote will prevent most people from even attempting to reduce their opinion down to the irrational component; they will instead simply vote based on the conclusions they prefer, defeating the point of the exercise.

I'm very averse to the idea of a vote. Aside from this problem, it suffers from a difficult dichotomy. Either it can only include an "elite", which seems like something you would oppose since you are very concerned with having a majority enjoy in the game, or it can include everybody, in which case we experience a new problem. Suppose a flood of new players came to Smogon who all held that Beedrill must be banned. They are not trolls and are indeed completely serious, and lobby for this everywhere, and there are so many of them that they actually comprise a majority of the players on the forum. Are we going to tailor the game for their needs or are we going to say "please leave"? I would say the latter, but the alternative to encountering this problem is elitism, and it is also unacceptable.

I would prefer instead that we formulate a set of goals such as "the game offers a fair number of options", "there are not many rules to learn", "new players can compete readily", and discuss the sort of points that flow from them. A vote is just an attempt to circumvent a real discussion. I don't agree that any beliefs related to centralisation are immutable.
 
I would still like to hear how you can defend that creator's intend has no place in this when considering that, when allowing this glitch, every Pokemon with Mimic gets every move, and that many, many of them are not broken. And nonetheless, they change the game as we know it radically.

With these rules, Megahorn Scizor is every bit as legal as Hypnosis + Nasty Plot Crobat.
 

Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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I would prefer instead that we formulate a set of goals such as "the game offers a fair number of options", "there are not many rules to learn", "new players can compete readily", and discuss the sort of points that flow from them. A vote is just an attempt to circumvent a real discussion. I don't agree that any beliefs related to centralisation are immutable.
This is at least the third time I have seen you mention "simpler rules" as a goal of competitive pokemon, yet I have never seen you qualify this statement (certainly not after TMN's latest request for clarification). If you have in the past I apologize for having missed it, but there are at least two people on this page that would like to know why you feel "simpler rules" is something to shoot for.

I do agree with the nature of this last paragraph of yours (and left the rest alone because that's obviously between you and TMN, I'm sure you won't mind). That said, you may or may not agree with (or be familiar with) Smogon's Philosophy, but doubtless this is where we would all start when trying to to "formulate a set of goals".
 

Cathy

Banned deucer.
Well, there are a few reasons why having simpler rules is ideal. It means the rules are easier to learn for new players, for example. (I mentioned this advantage in the post above.) It also seems more elegant to have a simpler ruleset rather than a more complex one.

However, the main use of simple rules is as a way to decide between two rule sets: if two rule sets are otherwise similar, then we should prefer the simpler one. For example, if we accept that we want there to be n viable pokemon, and two rule sets both lead to n viable pokemon, then how do we decide which one to use? The "simpler" one is the one I would pick. I just view this as an extension of the usual practice in the sciences of discarding unnecessary concepts.

As for what "simpler" means, I object to The Master Nitpicker saying to ban "legendaries" is simpler because that brings in all of the baggage about what a "legendary" is, which doesn't have much to do with competitive pokemon anyway, and hence far overcomplicates the rules. The simplicity of the rules is gauged by the number of rules and the amount of new concepts that they bring in.

We can also view preferring "simple" rules as an extension of being cautionary when banning in general.

(Yeah, I know this isn't much of an exposition, but it's something we can explore more later.)
 

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