OU BW OU Viability Ranking, mk. 5

[Gamer1234556]

Alright guys, prepare yourself for another one of my terrible takes.



The pink pixie has currently seen 10 uses in Monai's BW Invitational and a total of 7 uses in the RoAPL. In Monai's Invitational, it saw more use than Amoonguss, Aerodactyl, Kyurem-Black, Slowbro, Tornadus, Forretress, Gastrodon, Chansey, Slowking, Bronzong, Kyurem, Salamence, Seismitoad, Cresselia, Ninetales, Mew, Gengar, Xatu, Hydreigon, Gyarados and Blissey (and keep in mind this we are three rounds in the Invitational). I get that usage statistics aren't always a good argument to bring in terms of tiering, but when a Pokemon has seen more use than anything in B- and lower and even a Pokemon that has been normally seen as a viable mon in current BW OU, I feel like this warrants a rise from Unranked Limbo.

Of all the Pokemon that really enjoyed the diversification of Sand and the nerfing of HO teams via the Gem ban, no one would have expected Clefable to have taken the most advantage of those changes. We all know how obnoxious Clefable's Knock-Off antics truly are in DPP, but who knew this would have extended to BW, even in the presence of so many dangerous Fighting-type Pokemon like Breloom, Keldeo and Terrakion? Peng made a really good write-up about Clefable in his RMT here, so I suggest you check it out to see what Clefable does and how it managed to carve out a respectable niche in BW. Outside of Fat Sands, it has also seen a ton of use in Hail where it's just as great to deal with as stuff like Sandstorm immunes (especially Heatran) are chipped under Hail.

As to where Clef should be ranked, I would argue that it should be in B (lower than Latias). It's not quite a dominating metagame force compared to anything above B. While Gastrodon has been seeing less tour use than Clefable, you can still argue that Gastrodon is the better mon by virtue of being able to fit on more teams with it's better defensive typing. Despite this, Clef's recent yet rapid tour success is something that should be respected more.

 

[IUPLC]

Clef being good isn't a hot take lol

Magic Guard is one of the silliest abilities in the game, and while Clef lacks relevant resistances, its natural bulk and ability and movepool make it a great support mon that can enable unique builds.


I'd also argue it's way better than Gastro. Gastro is a bulky water that doesn't resist ice, which is terrible with Mamo and Cloy being so strong. Against Keld/Thund, it's constantly praying "I hope they don't have grass coverage." The rotom block is cool, but chances are going celebi/breloom + slow twin is just better.

 

[Gamer1234556]

Hello, fellow BWers. I worked on an Excel Sheet that gauges out viability based on Pokemon usage in tours, specifically the BW PL, RoAPL, and Monai's Invitational this year. After calculating the average ranking for each Pokemon, I assigned a number to them and compared it to the current VR's ranking. This way, I can note which Pokemon benefited from the current metagame's trends and which suffered from them.

Without any further ado, here are the most notable discoveries from this sheet.

Rises
--> Rise to A Rank
While Jirachi was previously neglected in the previous years due to its weakness to the Grounds and Volcarona, it recently had a significant revival with how good its Choice Scarf variant is. Rachi generally comes with some extremely important defensive utility against the Lati twins and the Outrage-Locked Dragons. While its slower Rocks variant has all but fallen out of favour, U-turn is still extremely valuable for scouting switch-ins, and even something like Volcarona really doesn't want to swap into something like a Body Slam lest it gets Paralyzed. The rise of Hippowdon teams also greatly appreciates the utility Scarf Rachi can provide.

Scizor was initially assumed to be one of the few Pokes that was neutered by the Gems' ban, but that couldn't have been further from the truth. The resurgence of Hippowdon teams has really given Scarf Scizor a significant push to relevance and HO still appreciates Scizor's ability to decommission the Lati twins with Pursuit. It also didn't really change all that much due to it being one of the few Pokemon that can viably run Life Orb due to it not taking Sand Chip.

Starmie was a Pokemon that was hit significantly by the Gems ban, but personally, I feel like it didn't fall that far. HO teams are still good and greatly appreciate Starmie's ability to pull a fast spin and even to act as a solid wincon. With Air Balloon, it becomes an important defensive piece against the Grounds and its speed-tier means that it can check the Lati twins and Alakazam in a pinch. The rise of Terrakion was also very good for it since it can outspeed and potentially stop it, making it a legitimate alternative to Tentacruel in Rain teams.
-> Rise to A- Rank
Between the Gems ban and the unbanning of Baton Pass, Celebi is finally returning to its former pre-HO glory. Celebi is an extremely important Pokémon in the currently popular SubPass Bi teams with Terrakion, as it allows Terrakion genuine chances to get on the field and wreak havoc. It’s easily the Pokémon that turns any matchup against Rain from a 50/50 to something like a 70/30 (unless they bring something like Double Dance Thundurus-T).

-> Rise to B+ Rank
Hippowdon is easily one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Gems ban. Defensive Counterplay has become a lot more reliable, and it is astounding just how resilient Hippowdon has proven itself. Being able to check stuff like Thundurus-T and Volcarona is really something that should be ignored, and unlike Tyranitar, it's able to stick around long enough to beat Weather Wars consistently. It's obviously not perfect, as it mandates having proper counterplay to the Lati twins lest it gets overwhelmed, but I personally feel like the Hippo is better than ever now.
-> Rise to B Rank
Forretress is a Pokémon that hasn’t really changed much itself, but its ability to compress Skarmory and Excadrill’s role in one slot really enables a ton of flexibility on Hippowdon Teams. It’s also arguably the best Steel-type in Hail due to it not taking Hail Chip, though missing out on Sturdy can really be a problem.

Aerodactyl is seeing a TON of experimentation. While it does have the classic HO lead that is always good, it is even seeing usage on Bulky Sand teams as a fast win-con in the vein of its Gen 3 counterpart. Compared to Terrakion, the Ground-immunity does go a long way in making something like idk, Scarf Chomp from revenge-killing it.

Bronzong has been seeing a ton of success for its ability to compress Stealth Rock with a Ground/Psychic-type check. It’s obviously not going to be seen on every team, but it’s a lot better now compared to 2019.

Conkeldurr has surprised me a lot. What was once seen as a low-ladder gimmick akin to Gen 4 Electivire has brought a massive resurgence in tours. This is most likely due to Dual Screens Offense being able to accommodate it, but Breloom being nerfed means that it has a decent enough argument on Bulky Sand teams.

-> Rise to C- Rank
Ditto has seen 2 uses in the RoAPL and 3 in the Invitational. That alone eclipses the usage of anything currently in D tier, save for Conkeldurr. Being a solid enough revenge killer against fast offense is invaluable for Bulky Sands.

Falls
-> Fall to A Rank (Reuniclus fall to B+ Rank)

Psyspam without a doubt has taken a hit through the past 2 years. With the power creep being de-escalated with the Gems ban, the resurgence defensive mons like Celebi and Hippowdon, as well as Clefable’s rise to BW relevance, caused Psyspam to be seen as a less favored playstyle now. Gliscor is probably the most egregious case, with it’s position as 3rd best Pokémon being considered by many as grossly outdated. I do personally feel like Gliscor is still pretty good, with Non-SR sets being quite solid being paired with SR Clefable on Sand, but it’s not Excadrill-level viable.

Alakazam is a much more apparent case of this. Compared to Reuniclus, it’s far worse into Celebi/Hippowdon Sand since it doesn’t have CM to pose a good late-game threat. It still does have potential synergy with SubPass Celebi and Clefable that hasn’t been explored yet, so there could be a chance for a resurgence.

Skarmory didn’t necessarily change all that much throughout the years, but the rise of Hippowdon Sands also gave the rise of alternative Steels such as Jirachi, Scizor, Bronzong and Forretress. Moreover, it must compete with Aerodactyl, Garchomp, Landorus-T and even Azelf as a HO lead. It’s not that Skarmory became unviable, it’s just that it has more competition to deal with, hence the minor drop.

Reuniclus is a Pokémon that is hard to rank. It’s moreso a Pokémon that you must regard on the teambuilder but in practice doesn’t really do all that much. Some teams either naturally prepare for it, or don’t really leave it room for it to accompolish anything. That said, it feels like it would see a resurgence somewhere in the future with everything being so bulky. (As a side note, I envision it being in B+ rank alongside similar Pokémon such as Cloyster and Volcarona).
-> Fall to B+ Rank
Ever since the Gems ban, Breloom feels a lot worse now. The resurgence in Celebi (and to a lesser extent, Amoonguss) has really been bad, causing the Shroom to go from an offensive behemoth to being the least used mon in HO. Some players have even experimented with other Fighting-types, such as Terrakion, Conkeldurr and even Lucario as an alternative. Breloom is still very good though, as its an important centerpiece for luring Landorus-T for its teammates Dragonite and Scizor to exploit, but I would be lying if I didn’t say that I have been a bit down on it.

Heatran has been the topic of discussion on the VR thread for a bit, but here are my 2 cents on this matter: Heatran, much like Reuniclus, is a Pokémon you respect more on the teambuilder than you do in an in-game setting. It’s a Pokémon that has so much potential but ends up just wanting a little more. Being a Physical check that is weak to Earthquake really blows, and getting worn down by Spikes and Stealth Rock every turn only makes things worse. The fact that Clefable is slowly becoming more mainstream really doesn’t help matters much either.

Mamoswine really doesn’t appreciate the rise of more offensive Water-types like Keldeo and Rotom-W on Sand. Terrakion becoming popular again also is a big sticking point. That said, it is another beneficiary of SubPass Bi so it might see a rise again somewhere in the future.
-> Fall to B Rank (Gastrodon) / Fall to C+ Rank (Seismitoad)
The rise of Clefable must be the worst thing that could happen to both mons. Clefable is easily one of the hardest counters to both mons and Scald no longer becomes a viable option to break it. To make things worse, most Gastrodon/Seismitoad teams don’t really have any switch-ins for Clefable, or no real means to pressure it. Even outside of Clefable’s rise, most Sand teams nowadays are using more offensive Water-types such as Keldeo and Rotom-W, further eroding their relevance. While Gastrodon does at least have the coveted property of walling Thundurus-T, Seismitoad has really suffered it far worse as it lacks reliable recovery and opens holes to dangerous Pokémon such as Volcarona.
-> Move to Unranked
A Pokémon that has long overstayed its relevance. Clefable’s rise basically erases any niche this thing has, and it already was on the fringes of viability. Milotic has nothing to offer that any other Bulky Water can provide and there is so many other mons that saw far more usage than this terrible mon.

New Additions
-> Move to C+
Breloom being nerfed means that Lucario has a decent enough argument on HO. Swords Dance + Extreme Speed is bound to at least be something worth using in occasion. It’s never going to be top-tier or anything but it’s seeing a lot more success than before.
-> Move to C
Spikes user + Spinning immunity makes for a solid niche since HO teams usually can’t afford a Spiker. Destiny Bond thwarts Pursuit attempts from Tyranitar and Scizor. More viable than currently ranked stuff like Hydreigon and Milotic.
-> Move to C
Offensive Grass-type that doesn’t feel like a momentum sink on Sand Teams. Too bad it’s also super inconsistent since it must run Special sets to swap into Scald, but also wants Physical sets since it doesn’t want to be Reuniclus food.
-> Move to C
Aside from the Gimmicky Sun Offense, it’s seen some decent success on HO teams as a Physical Fire-type with limited defensive utility against Psyspam.
-> Move to C
Decent Thundy-check/pivot for Rain teams.

Personal Tier Ranks
S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:
D:

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I would be cautious about equating usage to viability when your sample size is this small, for example august using a fun musketeers team in the invitational and contributing the only Virizion usage across all 3 tours

 

[IUPLC]

Agreed, and shit like Rapidash and Zebstrika are definitely unviable. Furthermore, usage = viability can also be misleading if a Pokemon fits on like 1 team that gets spammed a lot (sometimes when it really shouldn't be). Gastrodon is a pretty common instance of this historically.

 

[Monai]

Agreed, and shit like Rapidash and Zebstrika are definitely unviable. Furthermore, usage = viability can also be misleading if a Pokemon fits on like 1 team that gets spammed a lot (sometimes when it really shouldn't be). Gastrodon is a pretty common instance of this historically.

I would be cautious about equating usage to viability when your sample size is this small, for example august using a fun musketeers team in the invitational and contributing the only Virizion usage across all 3 tours

Hello, fellow BWers. I worked on an Excel Sheet that gauges out viability based on Pokemon usage in tours, specifically the BW PL, RoAPL, and Monai's Invitational this year. After calculating the average ranking for each Pokemon, I assigned a number to them and compared it to the current VR's ranking. This way, I can note which Pokemon benefited from the current metagame's trends and which suffered from them.

Without any further ado, here are the most notable discoveries from this sheet.

Rises
--> Rise to A Rank
While Jirachi was previously neglected in the previous years due to its weakness to the Grounds and Volcarona, it recently had a significant revival with how good its Choice Scarf variant is. Rachi generally comes with some extremely important defensive utility against the Lati twins and the Outrage-Locked Dragons. While its slower Rocks variant has all but fallen out of favour, U-turn is still extremely valuable for scouting switch-ins, and even something like Volcarona really doesn't want to swap into something like a Body Slam lest it gets Paralyzed. The rise of Hippowdon teams also greatly appreciates the utility Scarf Rachi can provide.

Scizor was initially assumed to be one of the few Pokes that was neutered by the Gems' ban, but that couldn't have been further from the truth. The resurgence of Hippowdon teams has really given Scarf Scizor a significant push to relevance and HO still appreciates Scizor's ability to decommission the Lati twins with Pursuit. It also didn't really change all that much due to it being one of the few Pokemon that can viably run Life Orb due to it not taking Sand Chip.

Starmie was a Pokemon that was hit significantly by the Gems ban, but personally, I feel like it didn't fall that far. HO teams are still good and greatly appreciate Starmie's ability to pull a fast spin and even to act as a solid wincon. With Air Balloon, it becomes an important defensive piece against the Grounds and its speed-tier means that it can check the Lati twins and Alakazam in a pinch. The rise of Terrakion was also very good for it since it can outspeed and potentially stop it, making it a legitimate alternative to Tentacruel in Rain teams.
-> Rise to A- Rank
Between the Gems ban and the unbanning of Baton Pass, Celebi is finally returning to its former pre-HO glory. Celebi is an extremely important Pokémon in the currently popular SubPass Bi teams with Terrakion, as it allows Terrakion genuine chances to get on the field and wreak havoc. It’s easily the Pokémon that turns any matchup against Rain from a 50/50 to something like a 70/30 (unless they bring something like Double Dance Thundurus-T).

-> Rise to B+ Rank
Hippowdon is easily one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Gems ban. Defensive Counterplay has become a lot more reliable, and it is astounding just how resilient Hippowdon has proven itself. Being able to check stuff like Thundurus-T and Volcarona is really something that should be ignored, and unlike Tyranitar, it's able to stick around long enough to beat Weather Wars consistently. It's obviously not perfect, as it mandates having proper counterplay to the Lati twins lest it gets overwhelmed, but I personally feel like the Hippo is better than ever now.
-> Rise to B Rank
Forretress is a Pokémon that hasn’t really changed much itself, but its ability to compress Skarmory and Excadrill’s role in one slot really enables a ton of flexibility on Hippowdon Teams. It’s also arguably the best Steel-type in Hail due to it not taking Hail Chip, though missing out on Sturdy can really be a problem.

Aerodactyl is seeing a TON of experimentation. While it does have the classic HO lead that is always good, it is even seeing usage on Bulky Sand teams as a fast win-con in the vein of its Gen 3 counterpart. Compared to Terrakion, the Ground-immunity does go a long way in making something like idk, Scarf Chomp from revenge-killing it.

Bronzong has been seeing a ton of success for its ability to compress Stealth Rock with a Ground/Psychic-type check. It’s obviously not going to be seen on every team, but it’s a lot better now compared to 2019.

Conkeldurr has surprised me a lot. What was once seen as a low-ladder gimmick akin to Gen 4 Electivire has brought a massive resurgence in tours. This is most likely due to Dual Screens Offense being able to accommodate it, but Breloom being nerfed means that it has a decent enough argument on Bulky Sand teams.

-> Rise to C- Rank
Ditto has seen 2 uses in the RoAPL and 3 in the Invitational. That alone eclipses the usage of anything currently in D tier, save for Conkeldurr. Being a solid enough revenge killer against fast offense is invaluable for Bulky Sands.

Falls
-> Fall to A Rank (Reuniclus fall to B+ Rank)

Psyspam without a doubt has taken a hit through the past 2 years. With the power creep being de-escalated with the Gems ban, the resurgence defensive mons like Celebi and Hippowdon, as well as Clefable’s rise to BW relevance, caused Psyspam to be seen as a less favored playstyle now. Gliscor is probably the most egregious case, with it’s position as 3rd best Pokémon being considered by many as grossly outdated. I do personally feel like Gliscor is still pretty good, with Non-SR sets being quite solid being paired with SR Clefable on Sand, but it’s not Excadrill-level viable.

Alakazam is a much more apparent case of this. Compared to Reuniclus, it’s far worse into Celebi/Hippowdon Sand since it doesn’t have CM to pose a good late-game threat. It still does have potential synergy with SubPass Celebi and Clefable that hasn’t been explored yet, so there could be a chance for a resurgence.

Skarmory didn’t necessarily change all that much throughout the years, but the rise of Hippowdon Sands also gave the rise of alternative Steels such as Jirachi, Scizor, Bronzong and Forretress. Moreover, it must compete with Aerodactyl, Garchomp, Landorus-T and even Azelf as a HO lead. It’s not that Skarmory became unviable, it’s just that it has more competition to deal with, hence the minor drop.

Reuniclus is a Pokémon that is hard to rank. It’s moreso a Pokémon that you must regard on the teambuilder but in practice doesn’t really do all that much. Some teams either naturally prepare for it, or don’t really leave it room for it to accompolish anything. That said, it feels like it would see a resurgence somewhere in the future with everything being so bulky. (As a side note, I envision it being in B+ rank alongside similar Pokémon such as Cloyster and Volcarona).
-> Fall to B+ Rank
Ever since the Gems ban, Breloom feels a lot worse now. The resurgence in Celebi (and to a lesser extent, Amoonguss) has really been bad, causing the Shroom to go from an offensive behemoth to being the least used mon in HO. Some players have even experimented with other Fighting-types, such as Terrakion, Conkeldurr and even Lucario as an alternative. Breloom is still very good though, as its an important centerpiece for luring Landorus-T for its teammates Dragonite and Scizor to exploit, but I would be lying if I didn’t say that I have been a bit down on it.

Heatran has been the topic of discussion on the VR thread for a bit, but here are my 2 cents on this matter: Heatran, much like Reuniclus, is a Pokémon you respect more on the teambuilder than you do in an in-game setting. It’s a Pokémon that has so much potential but ends up just wanting a little more. Being a Physical check that is weak to Earthquake really blows, and getting worn down by Spikes and Stealth Rock every turn only makes things worse. The fact that Clefable is slowly becoming more mainstream really doesn’t help matters much either.

Mamoswine really doesn’t appreciate the rise of more offensive Water-types like Keldeo and Rotom-W on Sand. Terrakion becoming popular again also is a big sticking point. That said, it is another beneficiary of SubPass Bi so it might see a rise again somewhere in the future.
-> Fall to B Rank (Gastrodon) / Fall to C+ Rank (Seismitoad)
The rise of Clefable must be the worst thing that could happen to both mons. Clefable is easily one of the hardest counters to both mons and Scald no longer becomes a viable option to break it. To make things worse, most Gastrodon/Seismitoad teams don’t really have any switch-ins for Clefable, or no real means to pressure it. Even outside of Clefable’s rise, most Sand teams nowadays are using more offensive Water-types such as Keldeo and Rotom-W, further eroding their relevance. While Gastrodon does at least have the coveted property of walling Thundurus-T, Seismitoad has really suffered it far worse as it lacks reliable recovery and opens holes to dangerous Pokémon such as Volcarona.
-> Move to Unranked
A Pokémon that has long overstayed its relevance. Clefable’s rise basically erases any niche this thing has, and it already was on the fringes of viability. Milotic has nothing to offer that any other Bulky Water can provide and there is so many other mons that saw far more usage than this terrible mon.

New Additions
-> Move to C+
Breloom being nerfed means that Lucario has a decent enough argument on HO. Swords Dance + Extreme Speed is bound to at least be something worth using in occasion. It’s never going to be top-tier or anything but it’s seeing a lot more success than before.
-> Move to C
Spikes user + Spinning immunity makes for a solid niche since HO teams usually can’t afford a Spiker. Destiny Bond thwarts Pursuit attempts from Tyranitar and Scizor. More viable than currently ranked stuff like Hydreigon and Milotic.
-> Move to C
Offensive Grass-type that doesn’t feel like a momentum sink on Sand Teams. Too bad it’s also super inconsistent since it must run Special sets to swap into Scald, but also wants Physical sets since it doesn’t want to be Reuniclus food.
-> Move to C
Aside from the Gimmicky Sun Offense, it’s seen some decent success on HO teams as a Physical Fire-type with limited defensive utility against Psyspam.
-> Move to C
Decent Thundy-check/pivot for Rain teams.

Personal Tier Ranks
S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:
D:

In my opinion, I think it's a pretty cool hypothetical if We did equate usage to viability. It's interesting that it's not too far off from What could be considered a reasonable 2023 vr, although Weirdos like virizion and hydreigon are here, albeit in C. I don't think We SHOULD equate usage to viability, but imo it is more accurate than the current VR With Weirdo picks like Gliscor #3

 

[IUPLC]

more accurate than the current VR With Weirdo picks like Gliscor #3

You can say that again. Gliscor is mid.

 

[Tbolt]

I made a couple of tier lists (with the input of the BW Discord) on how viable each Pokemon is as a part of each archetype.

For sand teams:

Most notable omission: Hydreigon; I have no clue what kinds of teams decide to fit Hydreigon over something like Latios, which is faster and has a better defensive typing.

For rain teams:

Most notable omission: Idk I think I got everything. Sharpedo or Jolteon would go in C but they aren't great Pokemon to begin with. Vaporeon is an interesting pick to me since it has BP but I still think it's C (between Latias and Toxicroak).

I would do one for hyper offense teams but I wasn't sure how to order it considering that the dedicated leads are chosen primarily based on the Pokemon that they support.

 

[magialice]

I made a couple of tier lists (with the input of the BW Discord) on how viable each Pokemon is as a part of each archetype.

For sand teams:
View attachment 561010
Most notable omission: Hydreigon; I have no clue what kinds of teams decide to fit Hydreigon over something like Latios, which is faster and has a better defensive typing.

For rain teams:
View attachment 561009
Most notable omission: Idk I think I got everything. Sharpedo or Jolteon would go in C but they aren't great Pokemon to begin with. Vaporeon is an interesting pick to me since it has BP but I still think it's C (between Latias and Toxicroak).

I would do one for hyper offense teams but I wasn't sure how to order it considering that the dedicated leads are chosen primarily based on the Pokemon that they support.

What's your reasoning for putting Thundurus below Tentacruel? I personally find that Thundurus does more than Tentacruel. In my opinion, Thundurus is very versatile. It's a bit like Volcarona, where almost every pokemon isn't entirely safe from Thundurus thanks to the large amount of moves it can run. Thundurus has the usual Thunder, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, which is incredible coverage, and lets it do whatever it wants with its 4th move slot. Thunder is especially nice for the 30% chance to just win the game vs rain when they switch in Latios(because what else do they switch in), unless they have Mamo. In the 4th slot, you can use Agility, pivot moves, Substitute, or Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot stands out to me especially, since it lets it break through things like Celebi and Blissey, which are normally safe otherwise, so your opponent will switch them in. Thundurus doesn't even need to run those first 3 attacks. Grass Knot is a nice option to threaten Gastro. There are also some weird sets, like Thunder Wave, Scarf, etc, but they are quite niche. Comparing this to Tentacruel, it usually just has sub sets and toxic sets due to needing scald and rapid spin(unless you're running something weird like Starmie and Tentacruel), and always wanting Protect. Substitute is incredible against Rain, but it means you need to use something like toxic Keldeo, and it isn't 30%-chance-to-win-the-game powerful against rain either. I also feel like Tentacruel's sets are more similar than Thundurus's, specifically in what things beat them. When Thundurus surprises you, it can result in you losing a pokemon, specifically as sand when a Celebi or Blissey is sent in on NP Thundurus, but when Tent does it, I feel like it's less scary.

I also feel like Tentacruel is slightly more replaceable. I really like Starmie due to its very high speed, and it usually forcing in Ferrothorn on opposing rain, which is abusable by Thundurus. It's also better vs Mamoswine with Air Balloon, which helps Thundurus out a lot. Certainly worse than Tentacruel on Rain(12.5% recovery is incredible), but still great. When I replace Thundurus, it's usually with Mamoswine. It does a lot of the same things as Thundurus, like beat Magnezone, but I feel like I need a Keldeo or Tornadus(or Thundurus with Mamo, which I like a lot, definitely my favorite mamo partner) or else why not just make a sand team or something. With Mamoswine over Thundurus, I definitely like Tentacruel a lot, so that Scizor becomes less scary.

Also, I think Toxicroak and Azu are on the same level, but also who cares. I just wanted to share my thoughts on Thundurus and why I think its so incredibly strong.

 

[Tbolt]

What's your reasoning for putting Thundurus below Tentacruel? I personally find that Thundurus does more than Tentacruel. In my opinion, Thundurus is very versatile. It's a bit like Volcarona, where almost every pokemon isn't entirely safe from Thundurus thanks to the large amount of moves it can run. Thundurus has the usual Thunder, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, which is incredible coverage, and lets it do whatever it wants with its 4th move slot. Thunder is especially nice for the 30% chance to just win the game vs rain when they switch in Latios(because what else do they switch in), unless they have Mamo. In the 4th slot, you can use Agility, pivot moves, Substitute, or Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot stands out to me especially, since it lets it break through things like Celebi and Blissey, which are normally safe otherwise, so your opponent will switch them in. Thundurus doesn't even need to run those first 3 attacks. Grass Knot is a nice option to threaten Gastro. There are also some weird sets, like Thunder Wave, Scarf, etc, but they are quite niche. Comparing this to Tentacruel, it usually just has sub sets and toxic sets due to needing scald and rapid spin(unless you're running something weird like Starmie and Tentacruel), and always wanting Protect. Substitute is incredible against Rain, but it means you need to use something like toxic Keldeo, and it isn't 30%-chance-to-win-the-game powerful against rain either. I also feel like Tentacruel's sets are more similar than Thundurus's, specifically in what things beat them. When Thundurus surprises you, it can result in you losing a pokemon, specifically as sand when a Celebi or Blissey is sent in on NP Thundurus, but when Tent does it, I feel like it's less scary.

I also feel like Tentacruel is slightly more replaceable. I really like Starmie due to its very high speed, and it usually forcing in Ferrothorn on opposing rain, which is abusable by Thundurus. It's also better vs Mamoswine with Air Balloon, which helps Thundurus out a lot. Certainly worse than Tentacruel on Rain(12.5% recovery is incredible), but still great. When I replace Thundurus, it's usually with Mamoswine. It does a lot of the same things as Thundurus, like beat Magnezone, but I feel like I need a Keldeo or Tornadus(or Thundurus with Mamo, which I like a lot, definitely my favorite mamo partner) or else why not just make a sand team or something. With Mamoswine over Thundurus, I definitely like Tentacruel a lot, so that Scizor becomes less scary.

I do agree that Thundurus-T is a significantly greater offensive threat on rain teams, but I also considered that rain has numerous such attackers that it can abuse and may not always want to use Thundy. Going lower in the list, there are several viable offensive rain abusers that can replace Thundy in various rain teams. Mamoswine provides massive wall-breaking power, Tornadus is faster than Latios and gives you a natural revenge killer to it, Scizor and Jirachi give you insurance against opposing Psychic-types, etc. Meanwhile, I basically considered that nothing else really does what Tenta does - it's a spinner and wall that shuts down a ton of threats in the rain. It spreads status with ease, removes hazards easily, and is bulky on the special side, allowing you to run physically defensive Politoed. Their order is personal preference (I think the orderering of the Big 6 rain Pokes are Poli/Ferro, Lati, Tenta/Thundy, Keld) so if you put broken Thundy over broken Tenta, that's fine by me.

tldr there are more choices for offensive Pokemon on rain than utility Pokemon on rain, so Tenta's great utility is more valuable as a result.

 

[Rewer]

Most notable omission: Hydreigon; I have no clue what kinds of teams decide to fit Hydreigon over something like Latios, which is faster and has a better defensive typing.

Teams that have both! Hydreigon is a very flawed pokemon but imagine switching into it when opp still has a latios in the back. Terrifying.

 

[Tbolt]

Teams that have both! Hydreigon is a very flawed pokemon but imagine switching into it when opp still has a latios in the back. Terrifying.

I suppose I hadn't really considered that. Who would have guessed that a great partner for a special attacking Dragon-type is a second special attacking Dragon?

 

[Rewer]

I suppose I hadn't really considered that. Who would have guessed that a great partner for a special attacking Dragon-type is a second special attacking Dragon?

Any pokemon that wants steels gone can pair up well, hydreigon can lure every steel in the game and kill them. You won't get many attacks per game, it's slow and has a shit defensive profile despite having levitate, but you can always make things happen when you do. It's kind of a clicker pokemon and that's it.

Also for the love of god, please use modest or rash if you use him, imagine cutting off your big damage just to attack before the landorus uturn.

 

[peng]

I have strong feelings on Hydreigon.

I honestly think all the Hydreigon sets people immediately think of using are pretty bad - all-out-attacking sets like Specs are incredibly rough IMO, sure its uncounterable but thats not a unique trait in BW, and its defensive typing + speed tier means its an invitational to p much every offensive Pokemon in the tier after its one guaranteed KO:


(if you run Modest/Rash, then add +speed Lando-T, Kyurem-B, Excadrill, some Jirachi etc to that list too! This also excludes scarfers)

This is a crazy list of Pokemon to get easily revenge-killed by in a metagame with such a high power level as BW. Countering all of these in one-team is already hard enough, to the extent that often times bulky offenses need to be aiming to limit the entry points for these mons. Specs Hydreigon instead is completely anti-thetical to this approach, as its entire gameplan is trading 1-for-1s with like 15 high usage Pokemon that are all scarier than it. (Kyurem-B admittedly has a similar issue, except its defensive typing means you can take Cloyster, Mamoswine, Starmie off this list, and its bulk also allows it to take weaker Focus Blasts and priority. Also CB Kyu is actually not that good too)

The obvious comparison here is with Latios, which only has the following as non-scarfed revenge-killing options:

but obviously gains Pursuit weakness + more easily beaten by defensive Steels than Hydreigon.

The issue here is that, in BW it feels far better to be a fast / priority resistant Pokemon with 1-2 counters, than it is to be a slow Pokemon with zero counters. Building teams to overcome counters is pretty easy - Latios and the Psychics do it by type stacking and hazards - but overcoming a free turn to every offensive Pokemon in the game is momentum weakness that feels near impossible to patch up.

The question also becomes, what do you actually want to pair Specs/4Atk Hydreigon with? As a completely uncounterable Pokemon, you have absolutely no idea what Pokemon your opponent is going to try and sac to it because it has coverage for literally everything, so how can you really design gameplans around that? Specs Hydreigon to remove steels for Scarf Latios sounds smart, but this doesn't actually practically work when everyone knows Hydreigon runs Fire Blast and they may decide to go down the route of, saccing some random Pokemon and exploiting your weakness to Specs Keldeo or other fast Pokemon instead, all while keeping their Steel because, why risk it? Designing gameplans around this Pokemon in the teambuilder is incredibly difficult people don't play in a predictable way against it, and you can't be defensively robust against every offensive mon in the tier that threatens it.

I guess part of the upside people look to is, well if my opponent runs fat and doesn't have ways to revenge kill it then it probably just farms, but I don't even think this is true. Its coverage issues are actually overstated a bit. vs very hard stalls, you're long-term losing to most Gliscor without Hidden Power Ice, and aren't breaking blobs without LO Superpower which doesn't feel good. You also kinda want Roost? IDK, I don't think the match-up vs fats is so good that its worth opening weaknesses to almost every offensive Pokemon in the game.

Hydreigon sets I think are ok:

Hydreigon @ Chople Berry
Ability: Levitate
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Thunder Wave

I've spoken about this a lot in Discord. I've not tested it a whole lot but this feels like a way to use Hydreigon's weakness to your advantage, and punish your opponent for making the correct plays vs it. With this you can probably get your free KO with Meteor/Pulse/Flame and then punish an Alakazam / Breloom / Keldeo / Terrakion revenge kill on top of that. CB Terrak actually still KOs through Chople so you'd likely have to run bulk, but you can tank Keldeo with no investment: 69.5 - 82.1%. Sub 3 Attack likely does a similar thing but hates Sand and probably couldn't run Meteor, which stinks.

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

This is Hydreigon's best set IMO, or at least the one that is easiest to actually fit onto competent teams. I had the most remarkably easy ladder experience of my life using this team last week. Access to U-turn, a good spammable late-game move in Dark Pulse (flinch is broken), Spikes immunity, and a good speed tier make Hydreigon a decent Scarfer. Leave the wall-breaking to Specs Latios, which people actually respond to in a predictable way with their Steels + Pursuit, and then punish those very linear reponses with late-game Scarf Dark Pulse. This feels far superior to using Specs Hydreigon + Scarf Latios, which inevitably is going to have issues with Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Alakazam etc + Pursuit.

 

[Sergi]

I've been wanting to post my VR since I got knocked off of Monai's Invitational, I was quite busy around that time and unfortunately couldn't. But now it's even a better time: after the Invitational is done and we're in the middle of a dead periord in between SPL.

Remark before I start I view rankings on a classic perspective by the definition of the ranks. I always found weird weighted rankings end up with some decent but not super splashable mons in the depths of B- or C ranks alongside very niche stuff. More or less the definitions of the first post are good, but I'd like, succinctly, to point out my vision:

• S Rank - Best mons no shit
• A Ranks - From the great ones to the more deverse (in terms of style or playing-wise) but solid ones
• B+ Rank - Teambuilding defined, first outlier, still good pokes on a vacuum
• B Rank - A various collection of more niche or picky stuff, but with solid results on correct line-ups
• B- Rank - Same as B, but super heavy on team support and not very good overall on their niche
• C Rank - Heavy niche dudes, think of like 1 or 2 teams they fit nicely

Sands are the best and most consistent teams overall, that puts it a step ahead of Latios in my book. People adapting their sands to HO puts it over the mediocre perception it had during gem era. Bulky Sands are super strong and very deverse. CB is amazing, try it out guys.

Second on the list. I personally value Latios a bit less tbh. It's current state is still great, but I find its set diversity to be less great: Colbur it's less good and splashable, first partner in crime of Reuni but outside kinda mid; Scarf been on a decline for a while, barely used on sands nowadays and mostly on rains, more hard to set up a late game scenario for it than ever (spin frequency disables a bit its efficency). Specs is gorgeous and back again as the best set and punisher.

I have Lando as my third. Best pivot in the entire game and best rocker overall. Rocks pivot is so threatening to many teams (sands mostly) due to how limited real counterplay is. Best exca deterrent and rocker: or it goes for the kill or you keeps rocks up. Scarf is still fine on the right squad. Offensive sets are fine, I find pivot set usually does a great job at pressuring too, but Gravity sets enable good comps and hits like a truck. I hate on SubSmack, no U-turn takes a huge part of why Lando is amazing at (U-turn + Smack is great guys) and Smack is kinda easy to pivot around at times.

That's the big 3 to me. I'd write less for now...

Lower on it than ever, I carefully watch my Ferro usage to not get very abused: In fact we all look for strats that are good at abusing Ferro. Even if we now all got on the Gyro train, there's plenty of stuff that still takes advantage of it. Backholding spin to when is low health, burned or similar is common strat right now. Lack of Leftovers (Rawst/Lum, Chople, etc.) on some teams goes against it vs Exca, Latios and general longevity. Basically harder than ever to keep its hazards up. LeechTech deserves more love.

Prolly 4th tbh. Ties with Ferro at least. Best spinner, hits hard fat with SD and can easily flinch it's way through (Skarm + Zong even, I've made it and seen it). Best passive abuser. Backbones many of the great sands we're seeing. MB sets are good on the right team or composition (fuck you RotomW)

Fast, threatens equally rains and sands and fits on both playstyle amazingly, can wield multiple sets from Lefties (to subsequent variants) to Specs to classic Scarf. Great match-up into HO. Speaks for itself.

If this was a year ago, I'd have Toed on a rank lower. Rain is THAT good right now, but there's not much diversity in it. I think there are few rain teams that are solid overall (cough Reuniclus cough) but those are really strong.

Zam has an unique property of always waving: what I mean is it historically features a cycle of itself being the dude to have checks and ways to beat for, and being kinda low under the radar but potent. We're on the second part of the cycle. PsySpam (as much as I hate the term, but somehow gives a boner in the BW cord) is kinda unfavoured right now. Latios + Zam typical structures are weaker right now, rain match-up is usually uphill. Spin + back Tar is also something that punishes Zam strats hard. Hazard wars affected Zam a lot, as basically goes by no hazard no win for Zam.

Demonic. Broken. Heartless. Literally the best mon right fucking now, it'd be awful to put it first from a theorical and ethical perspective so I'm hardly holding back here. Most consistent teams and strats go about support this bastard. I'm back on PsyFocus as the best combo, Tar + Dril killing is amazing when they're trying to predate you at any corner. BoltBeam giving a huge dick to rain is still great. PsyIce is prolly the most specific and less good overall combo. 3 Atks + Recover is also fine alongside like Zam or Scarf Latios. SPL is around the corner and I bet we'd see Clef Reuni Zong from the non-mainers and counterteams too (see: Keld Zor ThundT rain).

Killer. Not all great rains have it (barely) so I couldn't put in A+. U-turn, 4 Atks and NP are prolly the best. Sub gets the dick a bit for being unable of hitting Hippo Cele hard, which are the most common checks rn. If sleep was unbanned, it wouldn't be that menacing ;)

Best HO mon. Item selection goes along way of what checks it. CB is godsend on rain and some Wless. SubDD still cheese some teams pretty easily. Hurricane is great, try it out!

Feels like going back to 2016 - 2018. Skarm is at its best of the past 4 years. Sands is inherit weak to it and excels that match-up, put rain countermeasures (mostly Reuni) and you make up for that weak point. Can't wait to see more Skarm mirrors. Custap is great as always.

Still amazing. Best opener in the game and second best pivot. Can't put it higher due to the limited frameworks it can fit on. Scarf is really good too.

We are back at a phase of people abusing Tenta instead of it abusing the world. Still great, creates a good defensive backbone. Low on Sub overall, very bad vs Jelli, DOESN'T do shit to Reuni (PP Stall is not an strat if Hippo is around the corner), Cele, etc.

Great overall don't be a fool and get on the hate train. Rocks is definitely very mediocre, but I've been saying for years that set had expiration date. SD, Taunt, Knock + Toxic, are all good sets. Being inmune to the attrition war is clutch on this current state.

Best offensive rocker and lead. Good at opening vs almost every team. Hard to fit outside HO and rain offense. Scarf is great on sand at times. Not much else.

Very diverse, not crazy good but can fulfill a myriad of roles. I think it's underexplored on sand currently. Scarf on HO. SubCM / Wish on rain. Mixed on some sands. Pivot on Wless / DragMag.

The spinner of HO and popular on some rains. Amazing at what it does. Bulky star has a unique place in my heart.

I had it in A, but there's limited amount of sands where CB fits and it's mostly rain where it shines. Crazy hardhitter, one of the best breakers, hard to get in without pivots or doubles, holds it back from A too, doesn't fit too well on more vanilla offenses for that reason.

Putting some heavy competition with Tar, as it's overall better at winning and fighting the weather war. Hippo balances are strong, pressures Exca-Tenta real good, and pivots on rain easily with magic bouncers. Checking Exca, Volc, ThundT is a huge merit on those balances.

Really good on HO. Scarf / CB do a good job at keeping Latios / Zam / Reuni at bay. U-turn pivoting can be annoying at times. Other than that, can fall short at times, or just not prove to add much on some match-ups.

I was lower on Jellicent a few months back, change my mind: stop mindlessly slapping Night Shade, use Bold and voilà! Out of jokes, face of almost any Custap Skarm; on balances with Star measures, it's really good at forcing HO with rocks up and still rocking on the rain games. Seriously Nascar Jellicent is pure garbage right now.

DragMag is kind of dead and inconsistent at the same time. Defines some sands balanced the best. Balloon is super limited set, if you don't need the exca killing use some other set.

Best Keldeo + ThundT check in 1 pack, no clue many sands feature it. SubPass is still good but harder to push with than a few months back. Twave & bulky NP (this one also gives rain a hard time) are better currently.

Crazy hard hitter, while crazy hard to get on the field outside pivoting or hard-reading your opp. SD sets need exploration probably. Scarf is fine on a couple teams. Volc check.

Speaking of the moth. Bullshit is its second name. Worse as people have sturdier checks to it than in the last 3-4 years. Still on many HO. Hit-or-miss outside there. Sun Volc is scary but only Feanixx has the balls to bring it. Prolly B+ now that I think of it.

Better HO mon than Volc. Supports the physical partners and can spin, adding a new layer of depth to the builder. Still has been on a decline the whole year. The moment people stopped using 0 ice resist full fat, its empire started to collapse. Would put over Volc thinking a bit more about it. Still scary on the correct gamestate.

Stop using Magma mindlessly. I'm a fan of Leftovers Tran, it creates some uncommon structures and it's kind of a dick to some some sand bulky offenses. Balloon still its best set, you can fit everything: status, taunt, phazing, protect. I don't like Magma unlike you want to run Sunny Day. Status does mostly the same, and Fire Blast misses twice less than it. Fitting is hard, but easier than ever in the past 3 years. Rain match-up is quite annoying though.

BW kingdom was free of this fuckface, or so we thought... Dice is making a real effort trying to put this guy on the chart. No lie, it can outlast most of the tier and features a shameless combo with Reuni. Gems ban and HO decline helps immensely considering it's the match-up is kinda useless. Water Spam teams also gives this Pinky a blow. Let's see how far this goes.

Like Heatran, everyone forgot about the mushroom. Hard entry, especially considering Gyro Ferro everywhere, slow and Cele outbreak goes against it. Still threatening on the right HO. CB is like fine? Unfortunately I never found a solid team with it. PHeal sets are like fine vs some teams and quite useless vs others. Risky pick.

Super High on this genie, sands are less prepared for Hurricanes: Rotom being PDef, Tar not wanting to get chunked early, risking exca at every second. It also excels at punishing Cele and Keldeo. Specs, Sharp Beak, SubTect are all solid, even Scarf has a place sometimes. Hippo pivot and Hurricane hits on sand are only holdbacks right now, giving rain ANOTHER ThundT weakness is the second part of the holdback.

Bulkier version of Colbur, HW on some squads is godsend, CM can load rains easily, Screens if you are going for it... Nothing amazing but solid niches.

I think it kind of sucks. CB on typical DragMag is ass, choking on Ferro or killing 1 to get RKill after doesn't look very good to me. I like Scarf and Sub Freeze Shock. Bulky sets are intriguing too.

Only gonna talk about a few:

In both, Classic and Invitational, it has over 60% winrate. People shit on it frequently, but personally I find it one of the best para spreaders, as Celebi, checks Keldeo + ThundT and pivots Lando pretty well. Don't use it to blindly to check Toed/Tenta and you'll be good.

The need of Mammo checks brought it from the graveyard. Not only checks that: Exca, Latios, Zam, Gliscor, etc. Has a million movepool options but it remains passive whichever 4 it picks. Skill Swap is super clutch vs Reuni/Gliscor fat mirrors. Some structures may pop up still, but more-or-less we have seen all it offers.

The nut has been underexplored for the last 5 years (it was only used on Sun historically). Forre Xatu Glisc opened the can and we've seen many people running succesful teams with it. Backblocking best rocking in Lando (bonus in Hippo too) is truly an amazing feat. Checking CB Mammo / Exca is also clutch.

B- and C are kinda unordered. I'm exhausted after all these writing; probably, first and last time I post a ranking. Peace

 

[IUPLC]

My Rankings:
I am but a humble ladder rat + armchair expert, but I do have pretty spicy takes for how to rank.
My logic is pretty simple: is this Pokemon good? Do I want to use it on a team?
With that logic, Pokemon like Garchomp get MUCH higher, hence the adjusted rankings.
Furthermore, Latios is broken, so the tier kinda revolves around that fact.
Also, weather is overpowered, whether it's Sand, Sun, Rain, or Hail.

​

Explanations on Higher Tiers:

Jirachi/Excadrill/Ferrothorn: I'm just ranking these guys higher than Ttar because Steel types are actually good Pokemon.

Starmie: I'm just channeling my inner Fakes on this one.

Garchomp: This Pokemon dominates the builder. One always wants 2+ Pokemon that outrun it, ideally 2 non-Pursuit-weaks (e.g., Terrak, Keld, ScarfTar). Sash vs Yache vs Lum guessing games are VERY punishing in practice because if you guess wrong you lose a mon. The Draco revenge with Latios is a very beneficial line for Physical HOs which Smurf itself embodies, i.e., Breloom + Scizor + Garchomp just begs for a DDnite Endgame.

Garchomp also likes Ttar support given its innate ability to bait in Latios, so it's a cool alternative rocker on Sand like Heatran or a blob.

Tyranitar: This Pokemon can never be "bad", but assuming every good team has it is just silly.

Gliscor: Gliscor > Lando almost always if it doesn't run Stealth Rock. SD Ice Fang is OK, Dice has messed with SD Taunt Facade, Taunt + Knock Off techs for Hippo + Clef nonsense. It's a staple on fats because it's miserable to play against. EVing it around the right partners is the key to it being effective rather than a momentum sink.

Breloom/Scizor/Dragonite: Broken. Next.

Terrakion: It clicks buttons. It has 108 speed. It has cool STABs. It synergizes with Hippo and Ttar and is a fake Thundurus check with Sand up. It's a Volc check. It can CB or SD. This thing is just good.

Blobs: A blanket check for Specials keeps the Volcs and Thunds at bay.

Slow Twins: Fight Resists are cool. Bulky Waters are cool. Regen + Drill is pretty strong.

Everything else: IDK but I like discussing this mess of a tier so I'm open to criticism if it's constructive

 

[Finchinator]

This is what I submitted for the VR, which has each sub-tier in order of viability.

Latios 1 is obvious and Tyranitar-Excadrill being S should go without saying, too.

Ferrothorn is borderline S/A+ (maybe S-, but I opted not to include that). It is still great, but Skarmory takes up a bigger piece of the pie chart among Spikers, defensive Steel types, etc., which takes away from Ferrothorn naturally.

Politoed is A+ one way or another. Love Rain or hate Rain, it has to be a top 10 Pokemon just by sheer relevance. It used to be S-/S, but Rain has seen better days. I think you could argue it anywhere from current spot to behind Reuniclus without being wrong, but I put it first just because people are slowly starting to get more creative with their Rain teams, which can still be effective and disruptive.

Landorus-T I favor a good amount because of it fitting well onto multiple archetypes; the SR set alone is great into offense and it compresses roles well. Just a standalone great, clearly top 10 Pokemon.

Alakazam and Reuniclus fit in there, too. You can swing it either way. I slightly prefer Alakazam today, but the vibe can swing within a matter of weeks. And as I alluded before, Skarmory is great for what it does.

Keldeo and Thundurus-T round out A+. Both could go high A, too, but stood out compared to the A Pokemon.

As for the rest, nothing stands out a ton from what people would expect I would think? Feel free to ask on anything.

 

[Raiza]

not a fan of vrs but this is what I submitted and a comment seemed fun to make
changes from current vr:
moved order of some mons, like latios taking over ttar in s (tar got more competition from hippo as sand setter), drill and zam being on top of a+ (dominated recent tournaments, new sets became established). drill is s- maybe but i removed that rank.
Thundt in a+ is very arguable but its pretty rainbound so it didnt make much sense to me to rise it a rank when rain has gotten the opposite of better.

politoed moved down from a+ to a because rain is weaker, always felt that way but recent tournaments confirmed my suspicions.
jirachi up to a from b+, can be used on any build or playstyle ranging from HO to stall, we've even seen throwback rachi sands w no hazard control resembling early bw2 ones. every time you face this mon unless its on specific builds (rain w ferro or as sole steel, it'll likely be either cm or rocks / wish, or stall, it will be wish) you wont be certain of its set. its one of the best ice and psychic answers.
cloyster and volcarona up to a, volcarona didnt get particularly better but its still a great mon so should be a. it's quite a travesty cloyster was ranked so low before, its the premier HO sweeper and also new sets make it more unpredictable.

scizor up to a- from b. similarly to cloy b was an outrageous rank, so this is not really about scizor getting much better, although it has seen more usage on rain as a mon that can annoy zam / reuniclus quite well / doesnt take sand chip and its still as reliable on HO.

breloom down to b+, it seems to have fallen out of favour quite a bit. loom on weathers is rarely seen nowadays, rain prefers mons with more immediate raw power to break through sands, sand prefers fatter options that dont damage themselves to sand. HO sets took a big hit from gems ban, cb is cooked by protect and orb has survivability issues.
heatran down to b+, it's immense shit into rain and sunny day sets arent great in a meta dominated by sand. even if sand is the dominant playstyle you still dont want to risk playing with 5 mons if you find yourself playing against rain with an heatran. magma storm is broken when it hits but it usually doesnt hit. defensive plume sets get magic guarded / gliscor'd. also competition from other steel types, which are all better into current meta trends.
hippo up to b+ from shitter rank, the mon is really solid and gives you a lot of control over the game given it has whirlwind, solid bulk and recovery. you can rarely deny rocks from this mon unless you have a xatu or whatever, hippo can eat whatever tenta / drill throw at them and threaten with eq. no rocks / ww sets are also pretty decent allowing you to run slide to have a better matchup into xatu / thundt / volcarona. hippo requires some hazard removal imo to be optimal but given drills spot in the meta atm it should be fine.
celebi up to b+, bpass unban made it better, sub pass might still be underexplored, nasty plot sets are underrated and strong wincons on both sands and offense.

gastrodon down to b, it was mainly good on a team that has since become weaker, and not good into current meta trends. still a good mon, scald / toxic are annoying to switch into if you dont have reun / clef, but its a big if.
aboma and clef from the depths of hell to b. aboma is strong on both offense and bulkier hail teams. hail is a good tool vs sand (and also rain). you wont find a lot of stuff that can switch into a combination of stoss / ib / knock / thunder wave, this makes clefable quite annoying to face. also it has magic guard and can sponge special attacks / status. i believe there are still sets that are not explored (...trick?).
kyub up to b because b- seemed too low to me, it has a lot of stats.
last notable thing I guess is blobs and bronzong up some ranks. both have found new usage on fat sands / stall.

 

[Lumi_Nati 31]

Here are my thoughts on the current tier list. Keep in mind that:
1) I haven't really been that active for a while, though I did see some of the games in the recent SPL
2) I'm definitely not a pro player, I'm just someone who just recently started to become interested in the tier again, so take everything in this list with a massive grain of salt.

I'll only point out some particular things that I think are interesting, but feel free to ask me if you have questionsabout specific placemens.

In S-, I feel like the order of the first 3 mons is completely interchangeable. Ferrothorn and Lando cover so much in one slot, while Excadrill is both the best physical breaker and the best spinner in the tier, with its typing and decent bulk giving it some nice defensive utility as well.

As for the 4th mon, Keldeo, I think that while it's not as good as the other three S- mons, it's still so good that there's a significant gap between it and the mons in A+ imo. This thing has a seemingly shallow movepool, but it can run so many sets and run them all so well that it's insane.

In A+, the mon I wanted to point out in particular is Reun. I think that this mon is straight up broken with spikes in the tier, even more so than Zam. The only reason I put Zam a little higher is because I feel like the one drawback with Reun is that it can be hard to fit on some teams, especially compared to Zam which can compress multiple roles to 1 slot (revenge killer, cleaner, backup answer for HO with sash and arguably a wallbreaker with LO) but even then they are super close and I did consider putting Reun higher.

In A, there isn't much I want to talk about, I do think that some mons like Chomp Rotom and Loom are a little underrated, but it's not like I rank them that much higher than most people.

Same for A-, not much to go over here, I think that Celebi and Latias have some unexplored options but that's about it.

In B+, there are a few mons I want to talk about:

I always thought that Abomasnow is pretty decent but now it's in the best place it ever was. Having a pokemon which matches up so well into rain and sand is incredible, and I think there are multiple potential sets it can run. Also helps facilitate Reun in a way that's arguably better than Ttar because being able to chip Steel types in particular is massive.

Bronzong is such a good defensive buffer, it can act as a temporary stopgap to some of the scariest pokemon in the entire game, while threatening back with gyro ball or sr, all the while having a unique typing and ability which allow it to fill a niche that Ferro and Jirachi can't on some teams.

Lastly, while I admittedly don't know a whole lot about Blissey, it seemed to have spiked up in usage so much in this last SPL that I have to respect it. Being able to basically be a much bulkier version of Clefable at the cost of being weak to passive damage is very interesting for teams that are already aren't too threatened by passive damage (I say too threatened because in BW every team is threatened by rocks/spikes/sand/scald etc to some degree) while needing a catch all answer to the powerful special moves which are very common in the tier.

I think that from B tier onwards things start to become a lot niche. I think sun is not bad at the moment but it is definitely the worst weather in the tier. Xatu is a pokemon which I think has a lot of potential but it's very hard to make work.

I could talk about B- and below because I do actually have some thoughts on some of the mons (Gatr is way better than what most people think it is trust) but even the mons which I think are underrated are still mons that require a very specific team and/or a lot of support for a reward that might not even be that consistent, especially in the case of mons in C and below.

 

[Monai]

Lots of discussion on more updated vrs after cloyster ban, so I decided to make one and I hope everyone else will post and discuss their updated vrs.

Ordered down to a-

As for non standard placements:

My man defines all sorts of teams from HO to sand balance/offense to even rain. I value the flexible moves/items and even ev spread a ton, and I think he's able to be fit on basically anything but stall where Gliscor edges him. Over Ttar is reasonably controversial but Landots ability to more consistently make progress and be less predictable makes him better imo.

big buddy is like half the reason setup spam HO is still appealing/viable and his huge variety in items and even movesets makes him very difficult to 100% check without trying to revenge after the fact

Maybe a little odd to be over Politoed but thundyt feels more and more like the reason to run rain than just a common addition to rain offense like in the past. I think we should tinker with the ev spread more to maximize what it can do for each team, but it doesn't really matter as either way it's still a thundurus.

I think he's very good but as alluded to he's just worse than Landot because of opportunity cost and also being swapped into consistently by Landot. Very very good when he's better than landot though.

Absurd to me that finch considered him sub 20 at one point which is the reason why we're all doing this vr stuff. I think it's no coincidence that a down tick in opinion on rotom equated to people unironically considering mole banworthy. Resistances to Water Ice and Ground are actually insanely good and it anchors many a team so he cannot be lower than a tier imo.

I was one of the first people to consider tentacruel overrated back in ~2021 when we were considering him top 10 and the reason to use rain. But I feel like the community has overcorrected seeing the success of Reuniclus sand/hail fast and Starmie especially on rain. He's still an excellent spinner and pivot and can become unkillable in certain scenarios. Absolutely deserves more respect imo.

IDK bro he kills shit man

I was definitely a latecomer to the Hail train but I've begun experimenting a ton with Hail offenses and even a couple of stalls. I genuinely believe half the reason to build hail teams is Abomasnow itself, as with clearing weather and its ability to reliably use a 120 bp ice move with a freeze chance is actually the most broke shit known to man. Bulky sets that ABR has pioneered on fat are pretty good, but I've been loving boosting items on dice style offenses to break holes asap. Definitely needs more experimentation.

Lower than some people might consider him. Your main stab being 75% is actually tragic so I'm not a huge fan, but I think there's room for fire blast and alternate moves items and ev spreads. Also kind of a bad rocker

has suffered bans target nerfing it like 4 times but it's still not a bad breaker

dogass

 

[Finchinator]

I made a full BW OU tierlist and posted a YouTube video explaining it in detail. Video and tierlist below.

 

[Monai]

I was too lazy to actually do an official post about our updated VR, but I would like to shout-out ImZer0 for being an enormous help in the process! Might have taken weeks longer without them and it would definitely be unfair if they didn't get credit for doing half of the work for the update just because I'm lazy.

 

[Fakes]

Posting my vr, will add descriptions later.

 

[marsandback]

potato camera