Gen 5 BW OU Viability Ranking Thread - RoA edition

[ryan]

OU Viability Ranking Thread
credits to PKGaming for the last BW Viability Ranking thread, repost approved by Jellicent

Welcome to the official Gen 5 OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; in this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. It's about time the OU subforum joined in on the action!

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats. As an example, Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Forretress can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.

BW2 OU Ranking tier list V4

(Subject to change and in alphabetical order)

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Garchomp

Jirachi

Keldeo

Politoed

Tyranitar
​

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

A+

Alakazam

Breloom

Celebi

Dragonite

Ferrothorn

Kyurem-Black

Landorus-Therian

Latios

Ninetales

Reuniclus

Rotom-Wash

Scizor

Starmie

Terrakion

Volcarona​

A

Gliscor

Gyarados

Heatran

Hippowdon

Hydreigon

Jellicent

Mamoswine

Skarmory

Tentacruel

Thundurus-Therian

Venusaur
​

A-

Amoonguss

Gastrodon

Gengar

Latias

Mew

Stoutland

Tornadus​

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

B+

Dugtrio

Forretress

Gothitelle

Kyurem

Lucario

Magnezone

Salamence

Toxicroak
​

B

Kingdra

Moltres

Sableye

Sharpedo

Slowking

Victini

Zapdos
​

B-

Abomasnow

Blissey

Chansey

Donphan

Espeon

Feraligatr

Mienshao

Quagsire

Sawsbuck

Slowbro

Roserade

Virizion

Weavile

Wobbuffet

Xatu​

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

C

Aerodactyl

Azelf

Azumarill

Bronzong

Chandelure

Cloyster

Cobalion

Conkeldurr

Cresselia

Darmanitan

Empoleon

Froslass

Haxorus

Heracross

Infernape

Jolteon

Lilligant

Metagross

Shaymin​

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

D

Bisharp

Cofagrigus

Ditto

Exeggutor

Garbodor

Jynx

Kabutops

Nidoqueen

Porygon2

Raikou

Sandslash

Scrafty

Smeargle

Staraptor

Togekiss

Vaporeon

Victreebel​

Rules
~Post intelligently. Posts without any explanation or reasoning will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.

Happy posting ♪♪

 

[ryan]

Alright, welcome to the new BW2 OU Viability Ranking Thread. As people mentioned in the other one, it was outdated, and there was no one maintaining the OP. So here's a new one, and I'll do my best to keep it updated.

Along with reposting this one, I made changes proposed in the old thread. Specifically, I moved the following A+ → S
Volcarona: A → A+
Gliscor: B+ → A-
Gastrodon: B → B+
Alakazam: A+ → A-
Latias: A+ → A
Hippowdon: A+ → A
Rotom-W: A+ → A
Salamence: A → A-
Gengar: A → A-

The only one of these that wasn't directly proposed in the last thread was Alakazam from A+ to A-. Jirachee proposed for it to drop to A, but I honestly don't find it to be that good. It's a nice catch-all revenge killer for what you need it to revenge kill, but you have to choose what exactly you're hoping to kill with Hidden Power. Also, Sash Psychic/Psyshock is really weak, which makes it hard to find a way to revenge things that aren't weak to its coverage. I'm not a fan at all, but if people feel it deserves A, feel free to post.

Other things that were brought up that are potentially controversial that I'd like to hear more discussion on are A+ → A
Gastrodon: (B →) B+ → A-
Mew: B+ → A-
Stoutland: B+ → A-
Mamoswine: A → A+

I'd also like to wipe out/move some lower-ranked stuff, but it's not a huge priority atm.

Oh, and the reason why A- is really barren still is because it was just made. The old thread just went A+, A, B+, B, B-. It'll be filled more as we discuss things.

 

[BKC]

agree with all those things moving up, celebi is fine in a+

gliscor a

quagsire slowbro slowking b-

empoleon c

get rid of crobat crustle hitmontop rotom-h sceptile and zoroark, theyre all utterly worthless

 

[dadoux]

• Mew is a great-ass stallbreaker, should be at least A- imo, with good support you can destroy a lot of teams with it. The NP / SD / Normal gem explosion SR sets are cool too.

• Ninetales A+ is weird to me, yeah it's the only sun inducer but..it's not viable. I mean it's viable for his ability but it's not as a pokemon, i guess it can stay for his job of having drought but nothing more. Tyranitar being in the same rank as toed is bugging me but i guess we can talk about it later, the weather inducer's viability is pretty weird.

• Slowking is really underrated, it's like a TR reuniclus with a better typing, great spD, better movepool (psyshock / surf / fire blast / ice beam..), and the ability to heal with regenator throught the whole game, where you can't really let reuniclus take some damage. The TR one is pretty darn good and it should be around B- maybe.

• Volcarona shouldn't be A+ imo, yeah it's scary as hell but it's really limited by SR and by the fact that it is really hard to spinn in BW, it's not that easy to build around it too, the building limits should be considered in the mon's viability. A= is good enough for me, but that's debatable since this shit is hell to counter, you have to rely on the 4MSS most of the time, so i can get why it's A+.

• Amoonguss in B is really low considering it's the best keldeo check ever, a great check to rain / rotom-w, and it's surprisingly hard to switch into as a double status. Hmm, A- maybe?

Great job with the thread btw, thanks.

 

[boudouche]

Amoonguss : B+ : outclassed by celebi but has some advantages : it's one of the single keld's counters which isn't weak to pursuit, same shit for rotom-w. has a great ability and movepool (sludge bomb, spore, stun spore).
Mew : A- : its just too good.
Reuniclus : A- : underrated mon. excellent late game sweeper, magic guard makes it one of the best subtoxik gliscor checks and a possible stallbreaker.
Salamence : B+ : is only good in dragmag offensive teams imo.
Sawsbuck : B- : i don't think this one is really viable...
Tornadus : A- : it needs support of course but its the best rain abuser and one of the reasons jirachi is S. its fast, powerful, difficult to check if you don't play jirachi / spdef rotom-w.
Victini : B : its just a (good and a) better sun abuser than sawsbuck

 

[BKC]

sawsbuck rules boudouche is a hater

rotom-w needs a+

b+ is probably more fitting for salamence

abomasnow and bronzong suck shit, b-

 

[MoxieInfinite]

Ninetales if fucking garb doesnt even deserve to get drought #freegroudon

 

[Jirachee]

please remove these mons from the list as they are garbage: accelgor, crustle, durant, exeggutor, ninjask, sceptile, seismitoad, snorlax, togekiss

a lot of the B rank mons are misplaced. I'd say cloyster / cobalion / conkeldurr / darmanitan / infernape / Sawsbuck can all drop to c easily. agree with kev on zonger / abomasnow / mence. feraligatr could drop to B- too

slowbro / slowking / virizion could all rise to B- too.

I disagree with Mamoswine in A+. Mamoswine's great but there are a ton of good offensive grounds in the tier and I wouldn't say Mamoswine's the best of them.

I'd possibly rise Latios to S as it's one of the mons every team needs to prepare for, and it also provides crucial resists and checks many of the most threatening mons in the meta. Only problem is the Pursuit weak but it's pretty hard to pursuit it reliably without a heavily invested Tyranitar or letting something die, unlike say Latias.

 

[dadoux]

Virizion was good in the Exca hera but now it's pretty shitty.

Latios S is a bit too much, A+ is good enough, we can't put every mon in S.

 

[HeIIraiser]

volcarona: A+ --> A: volcarona is good, but it needs pretty much the whole team giving it support, plus 4x SR weakness.

salamence: A- --> B+: salamence is pretty much only used on HO teams as scarf, and it does its job terribly. the mixed salamence set is outlcassed by hydreigon, since the latter destroys many playstyles (mainly sand teams) while salamence fails to get some kos and has SR weakness.

reuniclus: B --> B+: otr reuniclus is rididulously strong in bulky/HO teams and the CM set can 6-0 many playstyles with the right support (sr/spikes and something to wear done jirachi/ttar/scizor). It can even survive u-turn from CB scizor and wear it down in hazards. Besides, reuniclus shouldn't be in the same rank as bronzong and sawsbuck.

 

[ryan]

Massive update because we're revamping this shit.

Shit that was removed:
Accelgor: D → Unranked
Crobat: D → Unranked
Crustle: D → Unranked
Durant: D → Unranked
Hitmontop: D → Unranked
Ninjask: D → Unranked
Rotom-H: D → Unranked
Sceptile: D → Unranked
Seismitoad: D → Unranked
Snorlax: D → Unranked
Zoroark: D → Unranked

Stuff that moved up:
Amoonguss: B → B+
Empoleon: D → C
Gastrodon: B+ → A-
Gliscor: A- → A
Quagsire: D → B-
Reuniclus: B → A-
Rotom-Wash: A → A+
Slowbro: C → B-
Slowking: C → B-
Stoutland: B+ → A-
Tornadus: B+ → A-
Victini: B- → B

Stuff that moved down:
Abomasnow: B → B-
Bronzong: B → C
Cloyster: B- → C
Cobalion: B- → C
Conkeldurr: B- → C
Feraligatr: B → B-
Infernape: B- → C
Salamence: A- → B+
Sawsbuck: B → B-

Stuff I didn't move yet that was suggested or I moved differently than what was suggested:

Ninetales: A+ → ???
I'd like to hear more on this. I consider Ninetales's placement indicative of the power of sun as a playstyle because as a Pokemon, Ninetales is shit. If we're going based on this, I'm still ok with moving Ninetales to vanilla A, but there's definitely a case to be made for A+.

Volcarona: A+ → A
I understand the arguments towards dropping it. They're definitely legitimate ones. But fuck, I don't think a more terrifying sweeper exists in BW2 than Volcarona. Unlike in XY, there's incredibly little priority in BW2, and Volcarona is good against literally every playstyle with at least one of its sets. Fine with moving it, but I'd like to hear more on this one too.

Amoonguss: B → (B+ →) A-
Moved it up to B+, but I think A- is a bit too generous for it. Less willing to bend on this one unless people are insistent, but I don't think anyone will be.

Sawsbuck: B → (B- →) C
Sawsbuck is a really cool sunmon imo. The best (pretty much only) physical sun sweeper out there, which is a pretty huge niche, beats Heatran on sun without Dug support which is huge. I think C is a bit too low, but B is too high, so I settled on B-. There were lots of varying opinions here though.

Bronzong: B → B- (→ C)
Zonger was proposed for B-, but it's kind of ass. It's good at walling the things it does because of its unique typing with Levitate, but it just drops momentum so much because it's so goddamn weak. It's one of those mons that just fits really well on certain teams but is really hard to slap onto a team.

Mamoswine: A → A+
Agree with Jirachee. It's really good, just not on the same level as other A+ mons.

Virizion: C → B-
Decent offensive rain check, but it's so fucking weak. I honestly don't use this thing ever, so I might be underrating it. Would like to hear more.

Reuniclus: B → (B+ →) A-
I fucking love this thing. So goddamn strong, OTR is an incredible cleaner, great mon to wallbreak and tank some hits midgame then take a Healing Wish and clean late game, good offensively and defensively. A- seemed more fitting, and boudouche nommed it for that rank.

Recap of stuff that needs discussion:

Oh, and I left Togekiss in D because Nasty Pass is hot. I might have left one or two other things too icr.

 

[dadoux]

• Ninetales's only reason to be played is drought. You can say the same about politoed, but at least specs hydro pump / scarf / encore to prevent set-up is pretty good, ninetales is SR weak, has less than decent stats, you can't tank shit and you can't do any damages either, and is are dugtrio weak on top of that. I also point the fact that sun is the less diverse weather, you can go SS offense / Stall, Rain offense / stall, and sun...stall are not really that good, and sun offense are based on match-up, if you can't kill/trap heatran you are pretty much done

Ttar > Politoed > Ninetales when it comes for weather inducers. Ttar S, Toed S-/A+, Ninetales A/A- imo.​

• Virizion was good before but now it's just really bad, since Keldeo was released, Lati@s are even more played, which Virizion can't deal with, even Scarfkeldeo's Secret Sword can do a lot to him. His typing / movepool is pretty good but the stats are not following.

• Amoonguss is great imo, A- would be pretty good, is the best rotom/keldeo check in the whole metagame, it's not that easy to kill and you can have a really hard time to switch into since Spore / Stun-spore is really annoying. Tornadus / Dragonite doesn't really like hp ice on the switch, the damage is not crazy hard but you can prevent some switches with it. I wouldn't be mad at A-
• The fact that you need to base your whole team around volcarona and that you can lose because of the 4MSS, (QD + bug buzz + giga drain / fire blast or fiery dance / hidden power ice, ground, water under rain / hurricane / roost...) makes me wanna drop it to A=, it's still really good and one of the scariest mon in this metagame.

 

[Jirachee]

Virizion's not that bad. It easily takes advantage of a lot of mons in the meta (ie bulky Grounds, most Waters) which allows it to completely destroy some playstyles. Being prone to getting beat by Latis is not that big of an issue because Virizion pairs up well with most Pursuiters actually, and many, many teams will just flat out lose to it once their Lati has been trapped. It was horrendous in the Tornadus-T meta, but now it's good.

Ninetales's placement in the rankings would be as a support threat, because it provides Sun which is broken as all hell but it doesn't really support outside of its ability... If anything, it needs support to support, lol. It has such a hard time beating every weather inducer bar Abomasnow and weak defensive Politoed that it absolutely needs support from a trapper to do well. I get that Ninetales' rank should show reflect Sun's viability in the current metagame, but the fact is Sun itself is not that good. It's very match-up reliant and ever since Genesect got banned it has a hard time forcing match-up on some teams, while other weathers (especially Sand and Rain) are much less reliant on having a good match up to actually win the game. A rank sounds fine for Ninetales.

As for Amoonguss, I'd say B+ is fine; a full letter under Celebi sounds appropriate. Celebi may be Pursuit weak but it can avoid slow Pursuits with Baton Pass anyway, while being a lot more versatile with its set. Amoonguss is great, but I think having it in the same rank as Forretress is fair.

 

[Stef0w]

I like virizion, it fares well against all the weather starter(cc's T-tar, giga drain/leaf blade's toad/hippo, ninetales is shit), and it's speed tier is superb.

it also has 99 ways to setup (sadly nasty plot aint one), which helps it to be decently versetile, even if I cant spell it. C-rank would suffice, heck I would not mind it moving up.

Ninetales might be the worst pokemon to grace the OU tier, yes the ability is amazing, but playing a 5v6 sure isnt.

I think gen 5 ninetales/venusaur, is a lot like kabutops/politoad, in that the weather setter is only as good as it's best abuser. A-rank is okay,if only because or venu/volca/the many good sun-users, pulling his weight.

 

[Alfalfa]

I propose Ninetales to move down to A Rank. Ninetales is only usable because of Drought, and even then, Ninetales needs excessive support so it is not dead weight. You could argue that Volcarona needs a lot of support as well, but Volcarona can pull its weight much easier because it is such a dangerous sweeper. I do not see Ninetales as on par with some other A+ mons, such as Terrakion, Ferrothorn, and Dragonite, which require significantly less support in order to even pull their weight. Move Ninetales down to A Rank.

 

[Vinc2612]

I've just read the whole Ninetales discussion and I am a bit surprised... "Sun is matchup reliant, if it can't beat/trap Heatran it loses" => What kind of sun team doesn't prepare for Heatran before anything else?
Ninetales can keep the Sun more easily that most of you seem to think, especially with the Sunny Day/Will-O-Wisp set that directly threaten the other weather inducers.

Of course Ninetales niche is "only" Drought, but people managed to make the best of it during all these BW years and we know how to use it efficiently to NOT make a 5vs6 battle while playing it. I mean, if you can burn tyranitar/politoed, set up the sun on any steel or grass type, lure Heatran to trap it, I don't call it a worthless Pokemon. And it is one of the best pokemon for that, just because sun is viable (and good).

tl;dr Ninetales stays in A+

 

[SoulWind]

how can tentacruel be above gengar and alakazam i dont even, they're better and totally a material (maybe a+)

move kingdra to b+

remove jolteon or move it to D, it doesnt even have a niche

rest is ok as far as i see

 

[Alfalfa]

how can tentacruel be above gengar and alakazam i dont even, they're better and totally a material (maybe a+)

move kingdra to b+

remove jolteon or move it to D, it doesnt even have a niche

rest is ok as far as i see

I agree with Jolteon to D, Thundurus-T's presence in the tier makes there literally no reason to run Jolteon, unless you are really paranoid about Stealth Rock, but that is essentially Jolteon's only niche, not losing 1/4 of your HP to Stealth Rock.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Jolteon can run a decent SubPass set, which Thundurus-T can't do. Of course, then it's competing with Mienshao (SubPass with Regenerator is actually pretty cool) and Gliscor, but its Speed & attracting different Pokemon (for example, Breloom would benefit from SubPass Jolteon baiting Blissey or Chansey) give it a niche. Removing it is a bit of a stretch; I think it has enough of a niche for D.

 

[Jirachee]

I kinda agree with Jolteon being D, although to be fair I'd simply drop it off the list entirely. I'm not sure if that's possible though because Jolteon is OU by usage =\. SubPass is cool and all but it's a very inconsistent strategy and Jolteon itself is not that good

Also SoulWind I agree with you but what I'd do would be drop Tentacruel to either A- or B+. It can be effective on the right team but it cruelly lacks versatility as it's very prone to being worn down outside of Rain and Starmie's bulky sets outright outclass on non Rain teams thanks to Recover and higher Speed (not to mention, Starmie can actually run multiple sets so you can't always know what's coming.) It's one of the few users of TSpikes though which are underrated in the metagame. I think B+ is correct for it. Can't say I agree with Gengar rising, but Alakazam could be A (I disagree with A+ though).

Also I have to say I quite like Moltres. I think it could be B. Both the SubRoost and Choice Specs sets are great assets for Rain teams because of its Fire typing and the obvious Hurricane. Improving your match up against Sun can be crucial in many matches. The SR weakness is not that big of an issue because Rain teams, both Balance and Offense, have access to the best / most threatening spinners, and Moltres can directly threaten almost every Steel Stealth Rocker. (also BKC reminds me Moltres can run a very effective Agility set!)

I think Donphan could rise a bit. Donphan got a lot of shit during BW but it's one of the few spinners that are actually viable on Sun teams and it helps them quite a bit thanks to its Rock resist and Ice Shard. It's also viable on some Rain teams. It's really not as bad as people made it out to be.

 

[Alfalfa]

I kinda agree with Jolteon being D, although to be fair I'd simply drop it off the list entirely. I'm not sure if that's possible though because Jolteon is OU by usage =\. SubPass is cool and all but it's a very inconsistent strategy and Jolteon itself is not that good

Also SoulWind I agree with you but what I'd do would be drop Tentacruel to either A- or B+. It can be effective on the right team but it cruelly lacks versatility as it's very prone to being worn down outside of Rain and Starmie's bulky sets outright outclass on non Rain teams thanks to Recover and higher Speed (not to mention, Starmie can actually run multiple sets so you can't always know what's coming.) It's one of the few users of TSpikes though which are underrated in the metagame. I think B+ is correct for it. Can't say I agree with Gengar rising, but Alakazam could be A (I disagree with A+ though).

Also I have to say I quite like Moltres. I think it could be B. Both the SubRoost and Choice Specs sets are great assets for Rain teams because of its Fire typing and the obvious Hurricane. Improving your match up against Sun can be crucial in many matches. The SR weakness is not that big of an issue because Rain teams, both Balance and Offense, have access to the best / most threatening spinners, and Moltres can directly threaten almost every Steel Stealth Rocker. (also BKC reminds me Moltres can run a very effective Agility set!)

I think Donphan could rise a bit. Donphan got a lot of shit during BW but it's one of the few spinners that are actually viable on Sun teams and it helps them quite a bit thanks to its Rock resist and Ice Shard. It's also viable on some Rain teams. It's really not as bad as people made it out to be.

B- at most for Donphan, though I am not sold at making it rise, probably because I have never used it correctly.

 

[Jorgen]

I've often regretted using Donphan, but at the same time, it's often the best thing available for what it does. It's part of what makes Sun offense viable and not just gimmick, as it shores up your weaks vs. Terrakion and Dragons (on top of its main role, spinning away those big bad rocks). Given Donphan can be such a crucial support mon for this type of team, I'd say it falls into the definition of B tier very well. It fills an important defensive niche, but has flaws that make it setup bait and unable to deal with large swathes of the metagame.

 

[Alfalfa]

Does Weather Ball even make Victreebel good enough for D Rank? Or is Bell just ass, and should just be unranked? I feel like Weather Ball is the only reason to use it over Venusaur, but it is much slower, and has horrible bulk, so I feel like Victreebel should be unranked.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

it gives it a niche at least, and its a step above the things that were dropped from D in post 11

 

[Alfalfa]

it gives it a niche at least, and its a step above the things that were dropped from D in post 11

If you can give me relevant calcs that show that Victreebel + Weather Ball can break through Pokemon that Venusaur + Hidden Power Fire cannot, then I will concede.