BW2 Doubles Viability Ranking Thread

[Pocket]

Yere, Audiosurfer, pretty much spoke my mind. I hardly see Espeon; it's largely an unremarkable Pokemon that lacks bulk and power to be truly useful. Magic Bounce can come in handy versus Prankster mons, etc, but it's still not worth a teamslot, imo.

Conkeldurr's does not hit particularly harder than other mons in rank B, and STAB Fighting is quite easy to neutralize with the likes of Cresselia and Landorus-T. There are far more devastating Trick Room sweepers than Conkeldurr, imo. It most certainly does not belong with Rank A Gang.

Sableye > Murkrow; the former lacks exploitable weaknesses to Rock Slide and Thunderbolt, while it has moves like Fake Out and Will-O-Wisp to set itself apart from Murkrow. That said, I support adding Sableye to C Rank.

Cinccino for C or D Rank. I don't find Cinccino much better off than Ambipom in Doubles. Cinccino has powerful multi-hit moves, but Ambipom has Technician STAB Fake Out. They both share the same nifty Speed tier and are both frail mons. I simply think they are eclipsed by the upper ranked mons, who either hits faster and way harder (ie Deoxys-A) and / or have much more usable bulk to contribute to the team longer.

Deoxys-A to remain in B Rank for the same reason I stated above for Cinccino. Deoxys-A is a weilder of amazing speed and insane power, its STAB Psycho Boost being one of the hardest hitting move in the game. However, it requires significant team support; you can't just slap it onto any team. With Deoxys-A, you're playing mostly 5-6, because you can't switch into Deoxys-A freely without risking it to fold.

Also, nyttyn, you are really underestimating Hydreigon. There are many reasons for using Hydreigon over Latias. For one, Hydreigon has that ever useful STAB Dark Pulse, which hits super-effectively against Cresselia and other Ghost- and Psychic-type mons in the tier. Not to mention it is a stupendously versatile Pokemon, with access to Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Fire Blast to fill up offensive holes in one's team. Where Latios shines in Speed, Hydreigon shines in its versatility. Hydreigon for A Rank

 

[youngjake93]

I would like to nominate Deoxys-Attack Forme for A-Rank.

It is by far and away one of the most threatening things in the game so far, with monstrous Base 180 Attack AND Special Attack, and a blistering 150 base speed. To put that into perspective, if you run a Speed neutral nature on Deo-A with 236 Speed investment, you will still outrun all positive-natured base 130s, like timid Jolteon. Not only is it fast though, it is a literal Glass Cannon. With 50/20/20 Defenses, it is literally out-bulked by Feebas, Magikarp, and Igglybuff. this fact keeps it our of S-Rank, as it needs quite a little bit of support to properly function, like a check against damaging weather and a Focus Sash, Protect, Quick/Wide Guard, etc. Basically, Deo-A will survive exactly 2 hits with a Focus Sash. If sand is up, you will only get one shot without Protect, which means having your own weather can be beneficial, or just run Life Orb since you won't get the benefit of a Sash anyhow.

I feel that Deo-A's raw power lets it hit A Rank, but it's frailness makes it less than S Rank, due to the amount of support required.

A Rank

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

I second this. There are even more ways to support it than mentioned, but with the right support Deo A is basically the best late game sweeper in the meta. Plus Extremespeed and Protect with proper prediction can create quite a lot of free turns particularly due to the nature of this glass cannon.

 

[Mizuhime]

Bisharp does not belong in A rank.


Conkeldurr does not belong in B rank. I
Porygon2 does not belong in C rank.

Espeon does not belong in D rank.

Birsharp belongs in A simple because of its ability defiant. It makes it so your opponent can't spam intimidate, which some of the best pokemon have as ability, and it makes it so your opponent can't spam icy wind to have complete speed control over you

Conkeldurr is fine in B because it's slow. it may be a power house, but it's only really good in trick room.

p2 doesn't belong in A, not even a little bit

Espeon is a frail psychic type, magic bounce isn't even that good in doubles

 

[Laga]

Keep up the good discussion guys, and remember that saying whether you agree or not with someone and why also helps me a lot when evaluating your opinions.

For example if you quote someone who has nominated a pokemon for a different rank you can make a post like this:

Nominating Pikachu to be added to A rank

I disagree with this opinion, as Pikachu is very frail and has very lackluster attacking prowess, whilst unable to carry sash as it needs light ball to actually do damage.​

(that was obviously not serious, just an example)

I am liking the discussions I see here :]

 

[Chaoswalker]

p2 doesn't belong in A, not even a little bit

I think I may agree a bit. Porygon 2 can't do a whole lot after setting up trick room. Sure it's pretty good at doing that thanks to eviolite and recover, but unless you get a download boost it doesn't have much offensive or supportive presence afterward.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Many 'Decent teams' have lost because of my Cradily. I'm not saying it's kyogre, but it's a very prominent threat and fits in C rank.

 

[tofucocoa]

A lot of people are using 'it was great on my team' as justification for raising Pokemon from lower tiers, which is only slightly worse than 'it's good at x!'. What you don't realize is that the higher Pokemon are there because they are generally more useful, and not just because it's good at one particular thing like setting up Trick Room. In fact, I hope you notice that the vast majority of Trick Room users are in B and below (reuniclus shouldn't be A rank imo, but that's for another time) because they're mostly only good for setting up Trick Room and possibly abusing its effects. Any other team doesn't have much use for them besides reversing Trick Room, which is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Being lower on the totem pole doesn't mean they're not good, they just occupy a very particular niche that isn't always useful, which means on the right team, Cofagrigus may be the best pick, but generally speaking Cresselia is the better choice.

I'll second Amoonguss getting shifted down to B rank because of sleep clause. It just sits there when one Pokemon's put to sleep, really. On the subject of Reuniclus, move it down to B as well or even C because it's incredibly squishy and that great special attack is wasted on something that relies on Focus Blast for coverage, with the typical reuniclus running something like psyshock/TR/shadow ball/protect just because fuck focus miss.

As much as I hate to say it, Lucario should be be put in rock-bottom D rank. Follow Me and yolocario are nice, but both sets are painfully outclassed by Amoonguss, Togekiss, and Staraptor, respectively. I also would like Gallade to be moved up since it's great at setting up Trick Room and then busting kneecaps with Close Combat and Zen Headbutt, which makes Gallade infinitely more useful than the likes of Gardevior and Skarmory. I'd say C rank because it kind of relies on Focus Sash to set up Trick Room and it's affected by Intimidate and Will-o-Wisp, but it's incredibly efficient at abusing Trick Room (it OHKO's chople Tyranitar, for instance), so it's not just sitting around spamming Helping Hand once Trick Room goes up.

Escavalier is cool and all, but it's basically a one-trick pony, and that trick relies on Trick Room. I say move it down to C rank because of that, especially when most of the time it's outclassed by Scizor because it can work outside of Trick Room.

also why the hell is slaking in c, it should be like tier z. don't get kids worked up about worry seed and skill swap shit, it's like giving them a sucker that you fished out of the toilet.

 

[noobcubed]

Slaking is in tier c because "it has crippling flaws that prevent it from executing it's strategy consistently", ie its partner can be taunted or faked out to prevent it from using skill swap. It is not in tier d because it is hardly "not very effective" if it does execute its strategy.

And i second the calls of "cradily for c rank". In sand its special defense reaches absurd levels (from past experience of using it, kingdra's draco meteor does about 25%, for example), and it fits well with the many psychic-type trick room setters who take out the fighting types it struggles with. As for those criticising its lack of offensive presence, it can actually do damage to rain teams with giga drain after a storm drain boost, and curse boosting and toxic stalling are also possible options. It has a niche, as a special wall and rain counter on sand teams, and it does it very well. However, c is the limit. Cradily is not a mon that can be thrown on any old team with good results.

 

[BlankZero]

Can we move Salamence down to B rank? Yes, it has a good mixed option and Intimidate, but other than that, Lando T is the much better Intimidate user, and Hydreigon has the better mixed attacker set. It is a fine Mon, but it's severely outclassed.

 

[youngjake93]

Can we move Salamence down to B rank? Yes, it has a good mixed option and Intimidate, but other than that, Lando T is the much better Intimidate user, and Hydreigon has the better mixed attacker set. It is a fine Mon, but it's severely outclassed.

I think Moxie+EQ starting into a sweep is what makes mence frightening. It is possible to get +3 in one turn and getting a 1 mon advantage. Combining that set with its mixed set and fatmence/intimidate set you get a lot of the qualifications of A rank. However, I agree that it isn't as "slap it on any team" as Hydreigon and Lando-T, nor is it as consistent.
Not sure, but I'm leaning toward B rank for mence too

 

[Laga]

I think Moxie+EQ starting into a sweep is what makes mence frightening. It is possible to get +3 in one turn and getting a 1 mon advantage. Combining that set with its mixed set and fatmence/intimidate set you get a lot of the qualifications of A rank. However, I agree that it isn't as "slap it on any team" as Hydreigon and Lando-T, nor is it as consistent.
Not sure, but I'm leaning toward B rank for mence too

Salamence has Intimidate, which is usually the preffered ability, since this is doubles, and EQ does not hit key pokemon such as Cresselia, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Latios, Rotom-W etc.

And because of the reasons of Landorus-T being a more of a consistent Slap-On, I am moving Mence to B rank until someone convinces me that it is an A rank candidate.

Edit: Moved back up to A

 

[Mizuhime]

the fact anyone thinks mence should be b rank highly unnerves me. lol. Not only does mence have amazing stats, intimidate, a great move pool, far better then just eq and outrage lol. it's just one of the best pokemon in the meta. Protip, mence also gets tailwind and heatwave. It's not a dragon you just click outrage with. my god would you people please learn the meta before you try to move some of the best pokemon down.

Final Edit: everyone runs special mence in doubles

 

[BlankZero]

the fact anyone thinks mence should be b rank makes me want to quit smogon doubles. lol. Not only does mence have amazing stats, intimidate, a great move pool, far better then just eq and outrage lol. it's just one of the best pokemon in the meta. Protip, mence also gets tailwind and heatwave. It's not a dragon you just click outrage with. my god would you people please learn the meta before you try to move some of the best pokemon down.

Final Edit: everyone runs special mence in doubles

I've never seen Sally as a great mon in Doubles tbh. Either I suck at using it, or every single person I've faced also sucks, or it just isn't that great altogether. We have access to better Dragons, and there are much better Tailwind Setters (re: Latias), as well as 2 additional team mates. I can see Salamence being much better in VGC as a more all-in-one package, but it's made obsolete in Doubles. I say B-Rank because it is outclassed as an Intimidate user, Tailwind Setter, Special Dragon, Bulky Dragon, Physical Dragon, etc.

 

[BlankZero]

Eggy, this isn't VGC. Things change. It's ok.

If you want to discuss this, fine. Don't just dismiss everything though.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Blankzero, I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I think the problem is that you view it as outclassed in certain options since it can do many things at once, but in reality that's exactly why it is not outclassed by other Pokemon. The ability to pose a good offensive threat, set up Tailwind and have Intimidate (not to mention useful resists to things like Fighting, good overall bulk and a great movepool) is why it is worthy of A Rank, since it can fulfill multiple niches in one slot, freeing up its teammates to do other things. Being one dimensional and only being able to perform one role is exactly what gets certain Pokemon relegated to lower rankings. However, Salamence's versatility is incredibly valuable, especially when the roles it can perform are already in high demand in and of themselves. So yeah, just because something is useful for doing multiple things, doesn't mean it's outclassed in what it does. Salamence doesn't even share typing with any Intimidate users, nor do any Tailwind users have Intimidate so how it's outclassed there is beyond me, and it's not like any other bulky Dragons or Special Dragons have access to Intimidate, so how it's outclassed there is also a mystery. Even if they did have all these things, Salamence would still have great combination of stats and a lovely movepool.

 

[BlankZero]

Blankzero, I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I think the problem is that you view it as outclassed in certain options since it can do many things at once, but in reality that's exactly why it is not outclassed by other Pokemon. The ability to pose a good offensive threat, set up Tailwind and have Intimidate (not to mention useful resists to things like Fighting, good overall bulk and a great movepool) is why it is worthy of A Rank, since it can fulfill multiple niches in one slot, freeing up its teammates to do other things. Being one dimensional and only being able to perform one role is exactly what gets certain Pokemon relegated to lower rankings. However, Salamence's versatility is incredibly valuable, especially when the roles it can perform are already in high demand in and of themselves. So yeah, just because something is useful for doing multiple things, doesn't mean it's outclassed in what it does. Salamence doesn't even share typing with any Intimidate users, nor do any Tailwind users have Intimidate so how it's outclassed there is beyond me, and it's not like any other bulky Dragons or Special Dragons have access to Intimidate, so how it's outclassed there is also a mystery. Even if they did have all these things, Salamence would still have great combination of stats and a lovely movepool.

Fair enough I suppose, but in Doubles, you'll have extra team mates that you wouldn't have in VGC. I can see takig something like Latias over Salamence as a Special Dragon with Tailwind, and still run Lando-T for intimidate. It is good as a Jack-of-all-Trades, but I don't think it's worth an A Rank for that. It also has that super nasty 4x Ice weakness, and BlizzSpam is a thing. It's good enough I suppose, but I don't see it as an A Rank threat. Not my call in the end though.

 

[Darkmalice]

I'd like to propose moving Ninetales and Scrafty up to A-rank from B-rank.

Ninetales in A-rank should be a no-brainer due to the immense team support it brings through Drought, with it single-handily making sun-teams viable and effective. Not to forget that Fire-types are better in doubles than singles due to SR being much less prevalent and Heat Wave being one of the best spread attacks in doubles, and Singles Ninetales is ranked as A+ solely because of Drought.

Scrafty in A-rank because it consistently and reliably provides Intimidate and Fake Out support (it is impossible to stop your opponent from providing this support), which is always great in doubles even with Hitmontop as competition. Even though it suffers from low base power, this isn't much of an issue when Scrafty hits many Pokes super-effectively with its STABs (and Ice Punch if you use it), and if it doesn't, switching out isn't often a bad choice as you then reset Intimidate and Fake Out support.

 

[Crow350]

I'm not sure if this is gonna be considered off topic, but I feel it's worth addressing the whole "this isn't VGC". Saying "this isn't VGC" as an argument to move something, other than something that is directly affected by sleep clause, is a poor point. If something is good in VGC it is almost certainly better in smogdubs on account of more team support. And that's really the biggest difference in the mindsets of people I see playing this tier. From the players who came from a singles background it's "in VGC I have two less pokes than smogdubs", but those who come from a VGC background it's "oh cool, I have two extra pokes I don't normally have". We've seen that VGC teams operate fantastically in smogdubs. The metas aren't as different as many people would like to believe they are.

Also, more on topic, ninetales should stay B. It's weak to both rock, ground, and water, which are the types of common spread moves. Drought alone is not enough to make it A. Too many people overestimate how good weather abilities are in doubles.

 

[Joim]

Ninetales is definitely a B rank. Its stats aren't that good, its speed is too fast for weather wars, its best moves for doubles are heat wave, confuse ray, and wil-o-wisp; all of which other Pokémon do better.

 

[Chaoswalker]

I also don't understand Gyarados in A rank. Being weak to rock and electric really hurt him. He doesn't damage things a lot either. I guess he's good for paralyzing a bunch of stuff without taking too much but is that really worth A rank? B rank IMO.

I also don't get it. In the time I used Gyarados, I found him rather underwhelming. Salamence, Hitmontop, and Landorus seem to provide more to your team in addition to their ability. I haven't played Gyarados extensively though, so if someone wants to defend him...

 

[Laga]

Gyarados is a fantastic support mon in the fact that it has access to moves like Thunder Wave, Taunt and Icy Wind whilst having the ability Intimidate. Electric and Rock type moves may hurt, but that is also it's only weaknesses, one of them being an equal in type matchup (Waterfall hit's Rock types super effectively in return). All of these features combined with solid base 95 / 79 / 100 defensive stats make Gyarados a very good pokemon for supporting a bulky offensive team, as it also can dish out damage by itself with STAB waterfall. This is the original reason to put it in A rank, but if someone can come up with plentiful and convincing argument for Gyarados being sent to B rank, and people seem to agree, I shall move it down by that time :]


EDIT this line and below: Posted a way too much in this thread already so imma just use this post to answer noobcubed's post below me.

First of all, Gyarados does not use Moxie + EQ for anything. In fact, nothing does. Since so many things are immune to it through Levitate or being Flying type and generally these pokes being so popular, EQ won't sweep for shit. The real only good set is the Intimidate support set with T-Wave / Icy Wind, Taunt, Waterfall and Protect, as this set provides nice special bulk alongside Intimidate to take physical hits better.

Moving on to Hariyama, Hariyama is a giant threat on a Trick Room team with it's blazing power and massive HP stat (bulk). Providing Fake Out support on the first turn, you will usually end up setting up Trick Room AND activate your Flame / Toxic Orb, all whilst both your leads only end up getting hit by a single blow from the opposition. This actually only really has competetion from Scrafty, as Scrafty has Intimidate + Fake Out to even further cripple other leads, and is also a bit more bulky with a better offensive typing. Hariyama on the other hand has extreme power, as Guts boosted Close Combat really hurts off of Hariyama's strong 120 base Attack stat. That is why.

Also, please refrain from using "I never see this pokemon used" as an argument for how viable a pokemon is, as some ladder opponents can be very... inexperienced if you will.

 

[noobcubed]

Gyarados is really pretty good, as well as its supporting capabilities it can do the whole moxie/earthquake thing. Even its electric weakness is manageable, all you need is a partner with lightningrod, although sadly this prevents it from using thunder wave.

Why is hariyama b rank? it seems pretty outclassed by hitmontop and conkeldurr, and i never see it...

 

[cxinlee]

Slaking is in tier c because "it has crippling flaws that prevent it from executing it's strategy consistently", ie its partner can be taunted or faked out to prevent it from using skill swap. It is not in tier d because it is hardly "not very effective" if it does execute its strategy.

I agree with this. Follow me screws this strategy so well, but if somrthing like cresellia can get the skill swap up, it can devastate teams.

 

[Stratos]

I agree with this. Follow me screws this strategy so well, but if somrthing like cresellia can get the skill swap up, it can devastate teams.

why the fuck would you not just use Kyurem-B instead? You get thirty more stat points and you don't even have to use skill swap bullshit. Furthermore, even after it's skill swapped, i've never found slaking threatening. It's still easy to outspeed, susceptible to intimidate (which if it switches out of that, it has to be re-skillswapped), and overall a piece of shit. Slaking deserves a tier of its own for badness. I nominate Y tier for "Y U USE DIS"

Over here I'm nominating Ferrothorn for A Rank. Ferro is a piece of shit in that you basically have to use super effective moves to KO him, and he's only weak to two types. This makes him especially effective against Rain, who don't have any Fire moves. Overall, easily the most effective cleanup wall ever.

And ninetales is definitely B rank. Drought isn't even that good of a weather in Doubles, as its abusers share common weaknesses. The only reason it's even good in singles is Venusaur, who takes a major hit here due to his lack of spread moves. Sun really has nothing good going for it. Hell, i might even drop Tales to C rank.

Lastly, agreeing with crow/zach/eggy/basically everyone smart that everyone who says "this isn't VGC" without a damn good reason as to why that makes VGC knowledge obsolete should be strung up and shot.

EDIT: Blissey should be C though imo, it can still do things other than shuckle shit. For example, Huy's worlds team made good use of a support blissey.

 

[tofucocoa]

Over here I'm nominating Ferrothorn for A Rank. Ferro is a piece of shit in that you basically have to use super effective moves to KO him, and he's only weak to two types. This makes him especially effective against Rain, who don't have any Fire moves. Overall, easily the most effective cleanup wall ever.

I disagree with this. For Ferrothorn to be effective (imo) requires it to run Leech Seed/Sub/Protect, leaving only one offensive move, which is probably going to be Seed Bomb. Coupled with its (somewhat) low attack, which is mostly only low because you're probably dumping all your EVs into your defenses, it's incredibly slow. This gives your opponent time to actually switch in that Hitmontop or Hydreigon to beat up your Ferrothorn (provided the other guy can break its subs), which means you're losing momentum. Additionally, Ferro isn't much of a team player; the teams I use Ferro on usually end up supporting it more than Ferro is supporting them because Ferro's moves pretty much only affect Ferrothorn. Also, Amoonguss pretty much walls it with Rage Powder unless you're using Iron Head or Thunder Wave.

This isn't to say that I don't have trouble with it when I'm playing rain teams (and sometimes sand or Trick Room). It's just that it slows your game down, and it really doesn't have room for other neat moves like Thunder Wave. It gives you a nice, tangible endgame goal (eg, 'if i can kill that chandelure, this game is as good as mine!') since its counters are fairly obvious, but it definitely isn't good for any team like Scizor and Latios tend to be.