-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...
- Thread starter firecape
- Start date
Dragonite can do it. Dragnonite's CB set is capable of 2HKOing the entire metagame. Dragonite is just slower than Mence. If Mence and Dragonite had the same speed, Dragonite would probably be just as Dangerous as mMence, if not more dangerous. Simply because Dragonite has a better move pool.
Well, Dragonite does have Extremespeed, Agility, Superpower, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Focus Punch, etc, and what does Salamence have Dragonite doesnt? Hydro Pump? Salamence has higher special attack and speed but practically the same Attack stat. Dragonite has much higher defence and special defence than Salamence. With this being the case, that 20 stat speed diference must mean alot, because besides that and a little special attack, Dragonite almost completely outclasses Salamence.
You guys realize that Salamence doesn't need a wide movepool, right? With his choice of [Dragon move], Fire Blast, and Earthquake, he can hit everything at least neutrally, and get a super-effective hit on everything that resists its STAB; dumping one only allows two Pokemon tops to switch in relatively safely. (Dragon/Fire only fears Heatran; Dragon/Ground only really cares about Levitate Bronzong, Skarmory, and lol Shedinja.)
subpainsplit gengar can switch in more and force more out (can salamence force celebi out? Chances are it'll take the hit and twave. Same with bold blissey) than mence, and yes, can beat pretty much the entire OU, including cresselia, with substitute up. Also, by luring and beating blissey, subpainsplit gengar satisfies clause #3 better than mence as well. Subpainsplit gengar is maybe the only set that can effectively run substitute and life orb and not be gimicky (meaning unexpected) like heatran. Oh, and that's through 2 moves that have perfect coverage, not 3. And yes, despite his frail nature, the 3, read 3 extra immunities give him more situations to switch in (sally can't really switch into stab fire moves or stab fighting moves with ease).
Well, sub pain-split gengar doesn't have the raw power found in DDMence and MixMence. The way I see it, Gengar does get a second hit while he has the sub up, perhaps scoring him a kill, but doesn't have the raw killing power. The fact of the matter is that Gengar doesn't get a powerful enough STAB move, and doesn't do as much damage as Mence does. What mence does with one draco meteor Gengar can do with two shadow balls. Not to mention the lack of bulk and viable stat boosting moves.
No, it's not easier for him to switch in. Gengar is usually taking a risk regardless of what it tries to switch in on because it has no bulk. If Infernape is in on Lucario, and you want to save his ass, you're either taking a Fire Blast or Close Combat. If you're wrong, Gengar is dead. Gengar would usually prefer coming in on the revenge because anything that has a move it's immune is going to have a move to hit it as well.
Also, Gengar simply does not hit as hard, which means that special tanks can come in and either outdamage him and stall him out. Off the top of my head, Blissey, Togekiss, and Zapdos will win against him every time, regardless of what move they come in on.
Sub Pain Split Gengar might annoy your opponent, and somewhat increase his survivability, but he's as frail as it gets, so you're usually just going to be wasting time when you could have had another coverage move instead. And don't forget the reason Substitute is so damn mandatory now: Pursuit. That one move ensures that Gengar is gone for the rest of the match if you mispredict or run anything witout sub.
Gengar isn't a joke by any means, but he might as well be if you're comparing his offensive prowess to Salamence. Coverage, bulk, and ability to 2HKO the entire metagame with one set trump his shitty Sub+Pain Split any day.
Salamence has Intimidate, which makes it better defensively than Dragonite on the whole. The movepool advantages are why Dragonite is OU, but they are nothing close to letting Dragonite surpass Salamence. Keep in mind, Salamence does not need anything more than it has: Between Outrage/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Earthquake everything in the game is hit for a 2HKO at least. Salamence wouldn't really be improved much by getting any of Dragonite's moves, apart from maybe Superpower or Extremespeed.
Um...the whole point of subpainsplit is that it beats blissey 1 on 1. Maybe you haven't tried painsplit yet. LO shadowball does 47-57% to physically defensive zapdos, so zapdos loses upon switching into substitute or shadow ball. The rare togekiss might stand a chance, but get's 2hko'ed (and thus loses if gengar substitutes) by thunderbolt. If this is the "top of your head" you might want to think a little longer about this...
Also your argument for infernape is faulty since it's not like salamence can come in on infernape either...infernape always carry hp ice and stone edge and is faster, unlike with gengar. a more appropriate example is gengar switching in on lucario, a fairly safe switch and common, or gliscor, who has a good chance or using toxic on salamence, or swampert who can't hurt gengar, or blissey which you know has toxic, etc..
Also your argument for infernape is faulty since it's not like salamence can come in on infernape either...infernape always carry hp ice and stone edge and is faster, unlike with gengar. a more appropriate example is gengar switching in on lucario, a fairly safe switch and common, or gliscor, who has a good chance or using toxic on salamence, or swampert who can't hurt gengar, or blissey which you know has toxic, etc..
None of your moves kill Blissey. You won't beat it. It will PP stall if it has to and win.
What part of special tank do you not understand? There is a different spread for specially defensive Zapdos, you know. If I use any special tank at all, I can beat Gengar. Oh, and Tbolt doesn't 2HKO max/max Togekiss. I can Roost stall until I'm at 100% or close, then attack. Not broken, not even close.
Nope, it works perfectly for what I'm talking about. Salamence can chance a hit it doesn't resist from a slower Pokemon if it has to (and tbh, there's hardly any of those, since its typing gives it so many damn useful resists), while Gengar can't. Coming in on Lucario again might get you Crunched. Those 3 immunities don't give it better switch-in prowess, it just makes it so that it can get in at all.
Salamence having Intimidate softens all physical blows, not to mention the perks of being a Dragon type gives it numerous special resists. That's a shitload of things Salamence gets to switch in on as opposed to Gengar's two or three.
You can't just blindly claim shit's broken; Salamence has been a Suspect in the making for a while and if Gengar was anywhere close to problematic, you'd bet your ass we'd have it up for evaluation as well.
Do you understand how subpainsplit gengar works? It even says says in the analysis that gengar beats blissey with this set, and I have never lost to blissey with subpainsplit gengar. painsplit has 32pp, while softboiled has 16. Painsplit easily brings blissey down to ~48%, at which point she's 2hko'ed by focus blast.
How many people run this "special tank" that isn't blissey? 8% of zapdos run high spdef. 252hp/252spdef togekiss takes ~50% from tbolt, an easy 2hko after sr.
The fact that you're blindly stating incorrect information makes it obvious that you're just trolling.
How many people run this "special tank" that isn't blissey? 8% of zapdos run high spdef. 252hp/252spdef togekiss takes ~50% from tbolt, an easy 2hko after sr.
The fact that you're blindly stating incorrect information makes it obvious that you're just trolling.
Don't talk about pokemon you've never used, or don't know how to use.
No one uses Specially Defensive Zapdos in standard OU. Unless Suspect has some I don't know about due to the huge number of Shaymin, even then you're still likely better off physically defensive for fighting Lucario, Gyarados or Scizor.
Specially Defensive Zapdos (I'm talking a rediculous max/max spread that no one will run) can be 2HKOed by LO Gengar after Rocks anyhow. Its no Gengar counter.
But hey you think Weavile is better than Scizor, so what do I know.
I don't care what Susie and her friends use. Specially Defensive Zapdos is listed as a Smogon set, so somebody's using it. Anything that can be tailored as a counter and is feasible for other uses should be considered viable. And no, I'm not talking about Shuca Berry Lanturn for DDMence or something equally stupid, just using OUs to counter other OUs. Gengar can be countered if you bother to actually do it, but a lot of people don't because it's probably only going to get one kill before something Pursuits it.
35.2% - 41.5%
Nope. Gengar counter. Point is, Gengar has healthy number of full-blown counters and it can't 2HKO the entire metagame, so it's not on the same level as Salamence or even close.
I don't think SubPainSplit Gengar is at all broken, but SJCrew your argument is seriously flawed.
Are you reading the figures you just posted? Really, something that has >50% of being KOed by LO Shadow Ball after SR and Leftovers outwith sandstorm and with no prior damage is a counter?
If Gengar chooses to Shadow Ball off the bat (not an unlikely situation at all tbh) your Zapdos is dead.
EDIT: I'm not going to even bother answering you ungulateman.
Are you reading the figures you just posted? Really, something that has >50% of being KOed by LO Shadow Ball after SR and Leftovers outwith sandstorm and with no prior damage is a counter?
If Gengar chooses to Shadow Ball off the bat (not an unlikely situation at all tbh) your Zapdos is dead.
EDIT: I'm not going to even bother answering you ungulateman.
Yes, while his point about being able to take on Blissey 1 on 1 is flawed as well as the point about Zapdos and Togekiss, his other argument isn't. Namely that a) getting in a Gengar completely safely is much harder despite its resistances, because its defenses are much worse and it has no Intimidate to use and b) Gengar doesn't have nearly the power of Salamence, with a base 80 STAB as compared to 140. It's more annoying than anything, and once that Sub is gone it can easily be picked off by Pursuit. And you can't just switch any special wall into Mence, because basically all of them carry physical moves as well as DM / FB, backed up by a 300+ attack stat.
Getting off topic again; it's pointless trying to compare Gengar to Mence just as much as it is comparing Breloom to Mence.
Getting off topic again; it's pointless trying to compare Gengar to Mence just as much as it is comparing Breloom to Mence.
Actually I've played a test battle vs Philip7086 with my Wish + Softboiled Blissey (to fully test it) and he managed to get down all 32 of my healing PP. This did leave him with 0 Pain Split PP as well, but it effectively neutered my Blissey to make it death fodder.
This means 0.79% of teams run Specially Defensive Zapdos.
This is about as common as Ursaring or Gardevoir in OU.
According to Libelldra's damage calc, that's a .07% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers recovery. So if Gengar gets a critical hit, then yeah, Zapdos is not a counter.
I didn't say "if you have any Zapdos on your team, you can counter Gengar" or, "if your opponent has a Zapdos, it is likely to wall Gengar". The point is that Zapdos, if it invests in special defense, can counter Gengar. Period. If it's causing enough problems for my teams, I have the option to use Zapdos to counter it.
Even still, that's beside the point. I don't use a specially defensive Zapdos to counter Gengar and I'm not promoting its usage. I'm just saying that if a random Pokemon running Sp. Def can counter Gengar, it's already easier to beat than Salamence, and thus should not be compared in the same light.
I've played actual battles vs. Sub + Pain Split Gengar where Gengar would win each time to a lucky crit. But most of the time, Gengar would refrain from attacking because my Blissey carries Shadow Ball to beat it (useful for Rotom and Dusknoir too). If Blissey doesn't run a move to beat Gengar, then I suppose Gengar wins, but then really, why are you using it for comparison if you're not running it with the intention of beating it?
When you're talking about the likelihood of certain Pokemon running a move to counter, then the presupposed argument of "that's not what it normally runs" would work, but when the shoe's on the other foot, anything is fair game. If you want a Gengar counter, it's easy, just bring something with good Sp. Def, recovery, and a move to beat it.
Latias was never a problem for Raikou lol. My Raikou wins practically every time when Latias switches in against it (unless trick scarf). it usually goes sub, CM, latias breaks sub, 2HKO with hp ice. Even if its a CM latias raikou still usually wins because of the simple fact that its faster (it also pwns wish+cm jirachi). its always been an underrated threat capable of decimating most teams with the right support (toxic spikes mainly). aura sphere sounds cool for hitting ttar and those annoying sp def heatran I sometimes come across, too bad its rash though because getting outsped by ape, gengar, and not being able to tie with starmie sucks.
A Stealth Rock weak poke that has to switch in at 100% (75% after rocks) and STILL have around a 25% chance of being 2HKOed (SP defense drop from Shadow Ball) is nowhere near a reliable counter.
Thunderbolt doesn't even kill Gengar in one hit.
I would make an argument to how stupid it is to run Shadow Ball on Blissey (I see its benefits, but its a huge waste of a moveslot) just keep in mind Shadow Ball is only doing..
44.27% - 52.67% to a 0/0 Gengar
28.29% - 33.55% to a 252/0 Rotom
39.85% - 47.51% to a 0/0 Starmie
42.61% - 50.17% to a 0/0 Azelf
22.28% - 26.73% to a 252/0 Celebi
23.81% - 28.57% to a 252/0 Dusknoir
These are the only Ghost weak pokes in OU.
Seismic Toss will hit Celebi for 24.75% which is slightly more than Shadow Ball on average and Starmie for 38% (both moves 3HKO). Not to mention all other pokes in OU are hit harder by Seismic Toss.
But if you feel it fits your team best by running Shadow Ball then thats fine, I really dont care. But here is why even your Shadow Ball Blissey gets destroyed by Sub Pain Split Gengar. The next calculations assume Gengar is running 252 special attack and 0 HP while Blissey is Calm with 252 Sp def / 252 Defense (the absolute worst sub Gengar would fight)
Blissey switches in, Gengar Substitutes.
Gengar: 195 HP / Blissey 611 (SR + Leftovers)
Gengar uses Pain Split. Blissey Shadow Balls.
Gengar: 261 HP / Blissey 443 (Leftovers)
Focus Blast deals 200 - 236 meaning Gengar can easily Sub stall as non-Shadow Ball moves often do not break a Sub, and if Gengar uses Pain Split after taking a direct hit from Shadow Ball Blissey will take heavy damage.
If you run Bold Blissey you will easily be 2HKOed after a Pain Split. Scizor does not beat Gengar as Pain Split + LO Focus Blast is a guarenteed KO on 252 HP Scizor.
[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind that you cannot beat a Blissey using Flamethrower or Ice Beam because those do break Subs, however you can cripple it by making it run out of Softboiled/Wish PP.
Here is a general scenario: Blissey switches into Gengar behind a sub. Blissey breaks the Sub with Flamethrower while Gengar Pain Splits/Focus Blast (neither will bring Blissey to half HP). Next turn, Gengar uses Substitute next round while Blissey breaks the Substitute again. Once Gengar is unable to Sub anymore, he will Pain Split, however not to Focus Blast's kill range. Blissey then heals herself and the cycle repeats itself.
Honestly I hate using Gengar with Focus Blast because it never hits. Once my Substitute is broken, I am easy prey to Pursuit users.
Epic Cherubi, stop typing and start reading. I don't use Zapdos to counter Gengar, I don't care of it does not counter it 100%, and whether or not Blissey beats Sub Pain Split Gengar or what moves I use have absolutely no bearing on my argument. It is easier to beat Gengar than Salamence because it has no bulk, is Pursuit weak, and random Pokemon with Sp. Def invested will scare it off unless it gets lucky. You can try to be a bold son of a bitch and try to stay in and take on whatever takes your Shadow Ball, but you're going to lose most of, if not all Gengar's health trying to kill something it should have switched out on to begin with.
You might not be able to predict what set or moves it uses right off the bat, but it's not throwing around strong ass nearly-unresisted STAB moves or DDing to beat its checks, it's revenging sweepers and flailing for opportunities to use sub or else everything in OU would kill it. Killing stuff on the revenge because you don't have the defenses to do anything else is nowhere near as significant as checking almost anything physical and abusing your power and perfect coverage to 2HKO the entire tier.
If you're so desperate for an argument, put your keyboard-rapping fingers to good use and contribute some insightful commentary regarding the Suspect metagame. I will more than happily take you up on that discussion, provided you actually have something to say.
You might not be able to predict what set or moves it uses right off the bat, but it's not throwing around strong ass nearly-unresisted STAB moves or DDing to beat its checks, it's revenging sweepers and flailing for opportunities to use sub or else everything in OU would kill it. Killing stuff on the revenge because you don't have the defenses to do anything else is nowhere near as significant as checking almost anything physical and abusing your power and perfect coverage to 2HKO the entire tier.
If you're so desperate for an argument, put your keyboard-rapping fingers to good use and contribute some insightful commentary regarding the Suspect metagame. I will more than happily take you up on that discussion, provided you actually have something to say.