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not to be pretentious but yall should really read this… C.H.A.T. (Come Here for All Talk)
- Thread starter Astra
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I have no idea how people can read self help books. Like genuinely, it does not compute
Not because these books say necessarily stupid things, some of them make very profound and helpful statements, but because these books are fundamentally able to get their point across in 500 words to like 20 pages at most and just repeat on end after a certain point
I think in general, these books are often very specific in where they want to be helpful and that there is no specific helpful statement that needs 300-400 pages. Like you want to know how to make friends? Dale Carnegie says to be genuine, to listen actively and to make people feel important. He then stretched out this sentence for 400 pages and sold it for 15 bucks
Not because these books say necessarily stupid things, some of them make very profound and helpful statements, but because these books are fundamentally able to get their point across in 500 words to like 20 pages at most and just repeat on end after a certain point
I think in general, these books are often very specific in where they want to be helpful and that there is no specific helpful statement that needs 300-400 pages. Like you want to know how to make friends? Dale Carnegie says to be genuine, to listen actively and to make people feel important. He then stretched out this sentence for 400 pages and sold it for 15 bucks
I don't want to run in defense of the self-help industry too wholesale, but these seemingly simple concepts have a lot of complexity and nuance underpinning them. If you grok that complexity without needing a bunch of words for it, great! But there's a lot of detail one can go into for people who either are struggling to put the pieces together, or who have a general understanding but want to finely tune their abilities to make them even better. Again, I get that some self-help books just are words without a point, but there is often room to make points if the author actually wants to.
For example, here are some building blocks or nuances to "be genuine" that may not be obvious to everyone:
How do I become comfortable being genuine (internally)?
How do I become comfortable showing my genuine self to other people?
How do I naturally progress from genuine, but lighter-hearted and more surface-level conversation, to more intimate (not necessarily romantic) conversation without coming on too quickly to people?
What do I do when I genuinely dislike something about a person, or just that person altogether? Or if my friends are fighting, and I genuinely think one side is correct? Should I tell them? Should I try to become / stay friends with this person?
I'm trying to be genuine, but people seem to like me less for it. How should I proceed? Is there some way I should improve myself? Am I laying it on too thick? Am I not compatible with (some) other people? Can I become more compatible without sacrificing my genuineness?
For example, here are some building blocks or nuances to "be genuine" that may not be obvious to everyone:
How do I become comfortable being genuine (internally)?
How do I become comfortable showing my genuine self to other people?
How do I naturally progress from genuine, but lighter-hearted and more surface-level conversation, to more intimate (not necessarily romantic) conversation without coming on too quickly to people?
What do I do when I genuinely dislike something about a person, or just that person altogether? Or if my friends are fighting, and I genuinely think one side is correct? Should I tell them? Should I try to become / stay friends with this person?
I'm trying to be genuine, but people seem to like me less for it. How should I proceed? Is there some way I should improve myself? Am I laying it on too thick? Am I not compatible with (some) other people? Can I become more compatible without sacrificing my genuineness?
that is all very true and I agree but most self help books that are a little more general don't go there and at best just provide example after example (which are ultimately the same situation presented several times) whilst the more specific self help books are again so specific that the answers to the question they propose is too simple for a whole book
I made the example of Dale Carnegie because he's actually the only self help (albeit I don't think that term existed in his time) author that I've learnt valuable lessons from, but I think his books were just advertisement for his classes and I genuinely cannot finish his works because they just repeat on end
How to win friends and influence people (I know very weird title) is a book you get after like a quarter through it. These 30-40 pages are very very valuable for many different aspects of life, but Carnegie just gave the same example with different actors for the next ~250 pages. And it gets new editions like every year that just continue on the unnecessary fluff
I also think that, whilst the follow up questions you propose are very good questions, that these are to be answered by the individual for the most part. I'd appreciate if self help books were more akin to make propositions and to give instructions on how to follow up on them so that the reader can learn how to implement these ideas in their own life, instead of these books presenting themselves as the authoritative answer to the issues they tackle. It's kinda like how good therapy is made up of a therapist that mostly listens and gives some guidance and leaves it to the patient what to do with it, whilst a lot of bad therapy is someone preaching their way as the solution
I was reminded by this because I stumbled up on some paragraphs from Atomic Habits. It's probably not the worst self help book, but its the worst I have spent time with. Be it from the author citing twitter and reddit in the book, the author not understanding what a habit even is and the message boiling down to "if you do something bad, don't do it anymore". I genuinely think that nobody that "likes" this book has even read it. It's some inspirational social media slop combined collected by an author that thinks that addiction and sickness are just habits that can be stopped from one day to the next
Like I know I can do something about my depression and anxiety but I can't just tell myself "hey. stop being sad and scared". And that's what the book tells me to do. I don't like being obscene but the author is silly for that imo
self-help is a grift... the only way you can be helped is through the redeeming power of the one true god (to find out which one is the one true one please subscribe to my expensive self-help course)
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it's so funny how something like rabies or even Prion disease takes days to weeks to kill a person but anaphylaxis or septic shock takes minutes
it's like our immune system flexes on every infectious disease. Like "oh you need days to kill this fella? Heh, look at this" and then ultimately kills itself to look cool
it's like our immune system flexes on every infectious disease. Like "oh you need days to kill this fella? Heh, look at this" and then ultimately kills itself to look cool
I mean… if we’re talkin about Smash Rosters….
First things first I want to say I take Smash Roster discussions VERY SERIOUSLY. No this is not just talking about video games on the internet. This is SERIOUS business. I’m literally wearing a full tuxedo while writing this.
The Smash community is split. Some can’t fathom how they can follow Ultimate up. How can you add to a roster of 89 characters? My answer: you don’t. I think this is a fantastic moment for the Super Smash Bros. series; the perfect opportunity for a reboot. Of course, I don’t want the fundamental gameplay to be overhauled; I still want it to be Smash. But, personally, since Smash 4, I’ve felt Smash has felt sort of…. sterile. I don’t want to use the word soul-less, because the crazy amount of work that went into these games is evident, but I would like to see a aesthetic upgrade, a more meaningful single player and a general overhaul of several of the character’s moveset, especially those of the series’ most senior veterans. In particular like Luigi, Link, Yoshi, Samus; in many ways I think you have room to make old characters *feel* like newcomers. This is rather critical if you’re going to end up with a lot of cut characters- Smash can learn a lot from Pokemon Sword and Shield. Not for any game development reasons, of course, but because the firestorm of hate generated by dexit would not have occurred if the games themselves looked, you know, good, or like products where such a cut in content from one generation to the next was warranted. People are going to be upset when you remove something from one game to the other; you have to convince them it was worth it.
Remember when the first trailer for Ultimate dropped, and the first few frames had people asking “is this a port of Smash 4?” And remember when they teased Mario Kart World in the Switch 2 reveal, and the first few frames had people asking “is this a port of 8 Deluxe?” I don’t want that for Smash 6 (or whatever its called- Kerfuffle is still on the table…) On Frame 1 of the new game’s reveal I want it to be OBVIOUS that this is the new generation of Smash.
With that in mind, it becomes impossible to realistically hope for a Ultimate-tier roster, nor is that what I really want. I want the game, and each fighter, to feel new; which is something that Ultimate did not do. And that is OK, because that wasn’t the goal of Ultimate. I don’t know much about game development, but I do know that it isn’t magic, and I can’t realistically hope for a reboot AND a 100+ person roster. So, with that in mind, I limited myself to a roster of 56. That seemed like a fair number for including fighters that needed to be included, while still allowing for them to be in enhanced in terms of their kits, animations and general aesthetics. And anyway, at the end of the day, making a Smash Roster is just fun, and there isn’t really a point to it if you don’t limit yourself to some degree.
Smash is in equal parts a fighting game and fan-service. There are characters who, no matter how you cut it, have to be in the game. Mario, Link, Donkey Kong, etc. Aside from that, on my roster, characters lived and died based on how I felt they would to the variety, and whether or not their playstyle is unique or interesting. I don’t really put much stock in “representation.” That is a word thrown a lot in Smash discussions. “This series needs more representation, this series has too much representation.” While that may be true and relevant in some cases, (Fire Emblem), I do not feel as if it is something salient to the actual design of these games; fighters take months and months of work to produce, and they need to fit into a gameplay ecosystem very carefully. I am not interested in adding a fighter just to hit a nebulous quota based on a franchise’s sales or any other intangible markers for success or legacy. I am concerned with the characters themselves; how do they play? Are they interesting? Can they have a functional, fun moveset? Will they take too much resources to produce?
Of course, representation does matter. Smash is, at its core, fanservice game; sometimes bounds need to be broken, I get it. But the community’s obsession with asking “did this character deserve to get in?” seems to to be the wrong question. Ultimate, for how incredible the game is, has shifted people’s perception of Smash from a “Nintendo fanservice fighter” to a “Video Game Hall of Fame,” which I do not think does the series any real favors.
The consummate example of this is Jigglypuff. A massive part of me wants to cut Jigglypuff so bad. The character is hardly relevant even to its own series anymore, and I do not really care for the preservation of the “Original 12” for its own sake. But damn do I find the character so much fun to play. What’s more, it’s easy to produce, borrowing heavily from Kirby’s model, which was 99% of the reason it was added to Smash 64 in the first place. With that considered; it’s very hard to imagine a Smash game without Jigglypuff, or without Falco, who is basically finished as soon as you make Fox. (That said I think there is a limit to the amount of “easy” characters you should have- if you are rebooting the game you really don’t want the roster to feel bloated by clones / near-clones).
And of course you have the actual newcomers, the lifeblood of Smash. For my roster there are 12 of them.
Crono & Frog: Chrono Trigger is generally considered one of the best games of all time, and it was a pretty important part of the SNES’s line-up. I could’ve stopped at just Crono but Frog is such a cool character. Imagine the reveal trailer; revealing Crono then surprise Frog towards the end. It would be sublime. Crono’s solo-techs translate very well to special attacks, and he could have a gimmick similar to Cloud’s where they power up into dual-techs, and when used one of Marle, Ayla, Robo or Lucca appear to help out. (Spin Cut could easily become Ice Sword, Cyclone into Fire Whirl, etc, ifykyk)
Midna & Wolf: I only feel marginally bad about adding a fourth Link to the franchise. Atleast this one is a dog? The two combined have some great moveset potential, and we’ve only a few other quadrupeds. I like them side-by-side with Duck Hunt, I think it’s silly. For Specials I would love to see them utilize some of the items from Twilight Princess; the spinner is an easy side special and the dominion rod provides opportunity for a unique projectile.
Waluigi: Though it may all be from meme power, but it’s impossible to deny Waluigi’s popularity. What convinced me to add him as a newcomer was the possibility of a tennis-based moveset. I like the idea of his smash attacks using a really over-the-top tennis racket, with spikes and flamboyant purple fire. A mechanic of rallying like tennis could be fun- but instead of a tennis ball its a bob-omb? Neutral B has him serve like starting a tennis match? Needs to some fine tuning but I think its close enough to warrant Waluigi going from meme to real contender.
Rhythm Girl: Rhythm Heaven is a great IP with incredible untapped potential in Smash. I was pretty sold on Karate Joe being the pick, and I know people wanted Chorus Kids ever since that one Smash 4 leak. But I moved onto Rhythm Heaven Girl because I think she could use a weapon that no one else uses: a wii-mote! She’s the most front facing character a series with a lot of fun characters. Not to mention its getting a new game soon, so the advertisement bias is certainly there.
Snorlax: Ok, slight vanity pick. I love Snorlax, I think it’s funny. It’s iconic, could be a fun grappler/brawler. It does very somewhat yucky to me only having Gen 1 Pokemon, but those are just the most iconic, and I don’t like any Gen 9 mons enough to really to put any in. Except maybe, like Ceruledge?
Knuckles - I get Tails would make more sense as the next Sonic rep, but Knuckles is just that more exciting. Don’t get me wrong I like Tails as much as the next guy but…. C’moooooon Its Knuckles.
Ganon - Honestly, I think this big ugly idiot is the most significant first-party character missing from the roster currently. The main antagonist from Nintendo’s second-most flagship series deserves to be in beyond just a final smash or a stage boss. The problem I have with him mostly is I’m not sure which design to go with; since he’s been pretty inconsistent. If we’re going to go with OOT Ganondorf (my favorite of them all) then I’d prefer to use more a classic design for his pig form; I like the blue fur, though its a bit cartoonish. That said, a moveset for him would be pretty easy, in my opinion: spinning swords, keese, fire, done.
Mipha - Honestly a sleeper pick, Mipha is not a character I see brought up very often in these discussions, but I think having one of the four champions from BoTW just makes a lot of sense. I was really torn between Mipha and Daruk (I love gorons), but I think Mipha just edges him out a teeny-bit; her trident is an underexplored weapon in Smash, and her greater importance to the story and to Link’s character gives her just cause to be added to the game. A healer-type character is also not a archetype that Smash really has, and fits well with one new game mode that I would love to see added (but I won’t get into that here.) One concern I do have with her inclusion is that she would be a 3rd water-based fighter, after Squirtle and Frog, and maybe fourth if Greninja were to be added back in (and I’ve considered it), but I don’t think that’s too much of an issue, and honestly water wouldn’t feature that heavily in her moveset anyway. Three new Zelda reps may seem like too much, but honestly I think its fine given Zelda’s insane repertoire of characters, and Smash’s current underuse of the series. Plus, my roster sees three cuts to the Zelda reps (Toon Link, Young Link, Shiek), so it balances out.
Bandana Dee - This aura farming mook is overdue. Could have a fantastically fun moveset with an underused weapon type, and has become a very prominent face in his own series- a series which is sorely overdue for more representation. Does it mean that 3 of Kirby’s characters are just balls? Yes- but, well, that’s just the Kirby series for you.
Louie - Definitely a vanity pick, I am a huge Pikmin fan. And no I wouldn’t add him just as a clone of Olimar, as much as that makes sense. My idea has Louie sitting on the back of a Dweevil enemy. That’s sort of Louie’s deal….I have a whole moveset in my head but I won’t go into details. Pikmin deserves better than what Ultimate gave it; what they did to Alph will never not confound me.
Leon Kennedy - Resident Evil is having a renaissance in the last few years and Leon is at the forefront of it; he’s popular, he’s hot, he’s campy, and he should be in Smash, with a horde of goofball quips about each character. I haven’t 100% locked in on a moveset but I do not think there would be any trouble with it- if anything he’d probably end up playing similar to Snake in terms of his use of a wide variety of artillery weapons.
tl;dr I have no life
First things first I want to say I take Smash Roster discussions VERY SERIOUSLY. No this is not just talking about video games on the internet. This is SERIOUS business. I’m literally wearing a full tuxedo while writing this.
The Smash community is split. Some can’t fathom how they can follow Ultimate up. How can you add to a roster of 89 characters? My answer: you don’t. I think this is a fantastic moment for the Super Smash Bros. series; the perfect opportunity for a reboot. Of course, I don’t want the fundamental gameplay to be overhauled; I still want it to be Smash. But, personally, since Smash 4, I’ve felt Smash has felt sort of…. sterile. I don’t want to use the word soul-less, because the crazy amount of work that went into these games is evident, but I would like to see a aesthetic upgrade, a more meaningful single player and a general overhaul of several of the character’s moveset, especially those of the series’ most senior veterans. In particular like Luigi, Link, Yoshi, Samus; in many ways I think you have room to make old characters *feel* like newcomers. This is rather critical if you’re going to end up with a lot of cut characters- Smash can learn a lot from Pokemon Sword and Shield. Not for any game development reasons, of course, but because the firestorm of hate generated by dexit would not have occurred if the games themselves looked, you know, good, or like products where such a cut in content from one generation to the next was warranted. People are going to be upset when you remove something from one game to the other; you have to convince them it was worth it.
Remember when the first trailer for Ultimate dropped, and the first few frames had people asking “is this a port of Smash 4?” And remember when they teased Mario Kart World in the Switch 2 reveal, and the first few frames had people asking “is this a port of 8 Deluxe?” I don’t want that for Smash 6 (or whatever its called- Kerfuffle is still on the table…) On Frame 1 of the new game’s reveal I want it to be OBVIOUS that this is the new generation of Smash.
With that in mind, it becomes impossible to realistically hope for a Ultimate-tier roster, nor is that what I really want. I want the game, and each fighter, to feel new; which is something that Ultimate did not do. And that is OK, because that wasn’t the goal of Ultimate. I don’t know much about game development, but I do know that it isn’t magic, and I can’t realistically hope for a reboot AND a 100+ person roster. So, with that in mind, I limited myself to a roster of 56. That seemed like a fair number for including fighters that needed to be included, while still allowing for them to be in enhanced in terms of their kits, animations and general aesthetics. And anyway, at the end of the day, making a Smash Roster is just fun, and there isn’t really a point to it if you don’t limit yourself to some degree.
Of course, representation does matter. Smash is, at its core, fanservice game; sometimes bounds need to be broken, I get it. But the community’s obsession with asking “did this character deserve to get in?” seems to to be the wrong question. Ultimate, for how incredible the game is, has shifted people’s perception of Smash from a “Nintendo fanservice fighter” to a “Video Game Hall of Fame,” which I do not think does the series any real favors.
The consummate example of this is Jigglypuff. A massive part of me wants to cut Jigglypuff so bad. The character is hardly relevant even to its own series anymore, and I do not really care for the preservation of the “Original 12” for its own sake. But damn do I find the character so much fun to play. What’s more, it’s easy to produce, borrowing heavily from Kirby’s model, which was 99% of the reason it was added to Smash 64 in the first place. With that considered; it’s very hard to imagine a Smash game without Jigglypuff, or without Falco, who is basically finished as soon as you make Fox. (That said I think there is a limit to the amount of “easy” characters you should have- if you are rebooting the game you really don’t want the roster to feel bloated by clones / near-clones).
And of course you have the actual newcomers, the lifeblood of Smash. For my roster there are 12 of them.
Crono & Frog: Chrono Trigger is generally considered one of the best games of all time, and it was a pretty important part of the SNES’s line-up. I could’ve stopped at just Crono but Frog is such a cool character. Imagine the reveal trailer; revealing Crono then surprise Frog towards the end. It would be sublime. Crono’s solo-techs translate very well to special attacks, and he could have a gimmick similar to Cloud’s where they power up into dual-techs, and when used one of Marle, Ayla, Robo or Lucca appear to help out. (Spin Cut could easily become Ice Sword, Cyclone into Fire Whirl, etc, ifykyk)
Midna & Wolf: I only feel marginally bad about adding a fourth Link to the franchise. Atleast this one is a dog? The two combined have some great moveset potential, and we’ve only a few other quadrupeds. I like them side-by-side with Duck Hunt, I think it’s silly. For Specials I would love to see them utilize some of the items from Twilight Princess; the spinner is an easy side special and the dominion rod provides opportunity for a unique projectile.
Waluigi: Though it may all be from meme power, but it’s impossible to deny Waluigi’s popularity. What convinced me to add him as a newcomer was the possibility of a tennis-based moveset. I like the idea of his smash attacks using a really over-the-top tennis racket, with spikes and flamboyant purple fire. A mechanic of rallying like tennis could be fun- but instead of a tennis ball its a bob-omb? Neutral B has him serve like starting a tennis match? Needs to some fine tuning but I think its close enough to warrant Waluigi going from meme to real contender.
Rhythm Girl: Rhythm Heaven is a great IP with incredible untapped potential in Smash. I was pretty sold on Karate Joe being the pick, and I know people wanted Chorus Kids ever since that one Smash 4 leak. But I moved onto Rhythm Heaven Girl because I think she could use a weapon that no one else uses: a wii-mote! She’s the most front facing character a series with a lot of fun characters. Not to mention its getting a new game soon, so the advertisement bias is certainly there.
Snorlax: Ok, slight vanity pick. I love Snorlax, I think it’s funny. It’s iconic, could be a fun grappler/brawler. It does very somewhat yucky to me only having Gen 1 Pokemon, but those are just the most iconic, and I don’t like any Gen 9 mons enough to really to put any in. Except maybe, like Ceruledge?
Knuckles - I get Tails would make more sense as the next Sonic rep, but Knuckles is just that more exciting. Don’t get me wrong I like Tails as much as the next guy but…. C’moooooon Its Knuckles.
Ganon - Honestly, I think this big ugly idiot is the most significant first-party character missing from the roster currently. The main antagonist from Nintendo’s second-most flagship series deserves to be in beyond just a final smash or a stage boss. The problem I have with him mostly is I’m not sure which design to go with; since he’s been pretty inconsistent. If we’re going to go with OOT Ganondorf (my favorite of them all) then I’d prefer to use more a classic design for his pig form; I like the blue fur, though its a bit cartoonish. That said, a moveset for him would be pretty easy, in my opinion: spinning swords, keese, fire, done.
Mipha - Honestly a sleeper pick, Mipha is not a character I see brought up very often in these discussions, but I think having one of the four champions from BoTW just makes a lot of sense. I was really torn between Mipha and Daruk (I love gorons), but I think Mipha just edges him out a teeny-bit; her trident is an underexplored weapon in Smash, and her greater importance to the story and to Link’s character gives her just cause to be added to the game. A healer-type character is also not a archetype that Smash really has, and fits well with one new game mode that I would love to see added (but I won’t get into that here.) One concern I do have with her inclusion is that she would be a 3rd water-based fighter, after Squirtle and Frog, and maybe fourth if Greninja were to be added back in (and I’ve considered it), but I don’t think that’s too much of an issue, and honestly water wouldn’t feature that heavily in her moveset anyway. Three new Zelda reps may seem like too much, but honestly I think its fine given Zelda’s insane repertoire of characters, and Smash’s current underuse of the series. Plus, my roster sees three cuts to the Zelda reps (Toon Link, Young Link, Shiek), so it balances out.
Bandana Dee - This aura farming mook is overdue. Could have a fantastically fun moveset with an underused weapon type, and has become a very prominent face in his own series- a series which is sorely overdue for more representation. Does it mean that 3 of Kirby’s characters are just balls? Yes- but, well, that’s just the Kirby series for you.
Louie - Definitely a vanity pick, I am a huge Pikmin fan. And no I wouldn’t add him just as a clone of Olimar, as much as that makes sense. My idea has Louie sitting on the back of a Dweevil enemy. That’s sort of Louie’s deal….I have a whole moveset in my head but I won’t go into details. Pikmin deserves better than what Ultimate gave it; what they did to Alph will never not confound me.
Leon Kennedy - Resident Evil is having a renaissance in the last few years and Leon is at the forefront of it; he’s popular, he’s hot, he’s campy, and he should be in Smash, with a horde of goofball quips about each character. I haven’t 100% locked in on a moveset but I do not think there would be any trouble with it- if anything he’d probably end up playing similar to Snake in terms of his use of a wide variety of artillery weapons.
tl;dr I have no life
Yeah while I respect Snorlax as a fun surprise pick I just cannot support Pokemon being reduced to Kanto-only. Swap Lucario back in over Mewtwo, for starters. As for Pokemon Trainer I'm going to steal an idea I got from another Smash roster I saw where they made Akari from Legends Arceus the trainer with Rowlet, Dewott and Hisuian Typhlosion as her starter trio. I think this is kinda genius because it maintains the Pokemon Trainer concept while making it represent 4 regions and 3 console generations' worth of Pokemon games at the same time, including the hip new acclaimed mainline subseries on the block. From here you could perhaps add Greninja, a Paldea Pokemon or an empty space for Gen 10, although it's no longer essential (My pick for Paldea would be Koraidon, incidentally, which I did consider for my own roster).
Also this is totally petty but I give a thumbs down to Waluigi. This is partly because I think keeping up the bit of him never quite managing to make it would be funnier and partly because Waluigi has become a bit too cringe and reddit band kid-core. Completely irrational, although a more substantive critique would be not liking the "make him fight with a tennis racket" idea that much. I will take all this back and endorse his inclusion if we ever one day get a Wario Bros. platformer of some sort, until then replace him with Palutena
One thing I do respect about your roster is being much more aggressive with the third party slimming down even though some of the cuts are pretty rough (It absolutely pains me to say but if we can only have one other Capcom character besides Leon Kennedy then Ryu should objectively be given priority over Mega Man)
Also this is totally petty but I give a thumbs down to Waluigi. This is partly because I think keeping up the bit of him never quite managing to make it would be funnier and partly because Waluigi has become a bit too cringe and reddit band kid-core. Completely irrational, although a more substantive critique would be not liking the "make him fight with a tennis racket" idea that much. I will take all this back and endorse his inclusion if we ever one day get a Wario Bros. platformer of some sort, until then replace him with Palutena
One thing I do respect about your roster is being much more aggressive with the third party slimming down even though some of the cuts are pretty rough (It absolutely pains me to say but if we can only have one other Capcom character besides Leon Kennedy then Ryu should objectively be given priority over Mega Man)
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I see what you’re saying but I am fundamentally not interesting in cutting iconic characters for more recent ones just for representation’s sake. Pikachu, Squirtle, Charizard, Mewtwo (and Snorlax imo) are just some of the most iconic Nintendo characters out there. To me, replacing them for lesser known characters just because those characters are from more recent games is akin to replacing Zelda or Meta Knight or Diddy Kong. Pokemon is for some reason the only series where people break the characters into generations and then act like each generation needs its own representation. My Mario representation has no characters released before 2000, no DK characters released before 1994, no Metroid characters released before 1986, and no one says this is a problem because there is an understanding that of course Smash is going to feature the most iconic faces of each series.
If I afforded myself a few more slots then I definitely would’ve included Lucario or Greninja or a second Pokemon rep from another game, but I didn’t, so I won’t.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that Pokemon doesn't work like those other franchises. Every Mario game that isn't a side character focus spinoff like Warioware will always feature some combination of Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser as THE playable characters and/or principle drivers of the narrative. Almost every Metroid game has you play exclusively as Samus Aran for the whole runtime. Pikachu appears in every Pokemon game, but just as one playable creature among hundreds. Charizard is especially relevant in 4/9 mainline regions (Kanto, Johto, Kalos & Galar), Mewtwo in 3. Pokemon is much closer to "incarnation franchises" like basically every other JRPG series where every new game is a clean slate with a fresh story, characters and world unless explicitly stated otherwise. If Final Fantasy was a Nintendo franchise I and everyone else would expect far more than just 7 getting roster space, including guys from 14-16.
Just add snom to the roster
All this roster talk reminded me of my past partial attempt to make one, where I think that went wrong, and what I was still struggling with – vision. There are lots of choices I think make sense or don't in a vacuum, but I want a solid direction to move the franchise forward into a new game, moving from what I view as some mistakes of Ultimate. Part of me wants to slash the roster, even more them some people here, and say this helps devs devote a ton of energy into super cool and dynamic movesets... but how cool is that, exactly, at least in isolation? I want a new vision to make that stronger.
Let's do a vision.
I definitely don't want the vision to be any of Tons of Characters, Tons of New Third Parties / Broad Gaming, and Customization / Creativity. These are just too familiar from the past two games to be really new, interesting, and exciting. I think a new Smash game taking a path like this is opening itself up to an unfavorable comparison with Ultimate.
The theme I'll pick here is game flow – the game knows who is winning or has momentum, and it uses that to change the game.
The Smash games are not particularly well known for good flow. It has climactic moments – you finally break open the Smash Ball and crush your friends, or a tournament player lands a devastating combo – but these appear basically at random. The Smash Ball literally comes from nowhere, and using it is often just a cutscene with no interaction, especially in the newer games. There are advantage states and disadvantage states in tournament play that help influence whether a person will land a powerful combo, but at the end of the day, not a whole lot of buildup and flow needs to take place for Luigi to grab you one time, or Belmonts to perform one ledgetrap sequence, or so on.
It has a little bit of mechanics that change / improve flow, but not a lot. Several characters have comeback mechanics or the like, such as Lucario, Terry, and Joker, but their implementation is scattershot and often annoying or criticized. If you're losing very badly in a causal match, you can respawn with a free Final Smash, I guess... The crowd cheer exists, just at the mercy of its caprice... Flow is not a strong point. That makes flow a great way to set a new Smash game apart.
Let's dig in. A lot can be changed, but I like where I'm going.
Implementing Flow:
- Meter
This is probably no surprise to people familiar with other fighting games. Meter is a natural part of their flow, interacting with time and your performance to change how you're able to fight, how powerful you are, and the dynamic between you and your opponent. A simple EX Move + Super setup is a good starting point. The Super could be Final Smahes, or it could be different. If it is Final Smashes, there would be significant mechanic / balancing changes – Ultimate's FS Meter is not looked upon fondly by the competitive community.
Like in many fighting games, Smash Meter can both reward good play and give fighters in a bad spot a chance to even things. Logically, it helps these different fighters in different ways - a combo breaker better matches a fighter in a bad spot, for example.
- Style
Here, I give Meter a Smash spin. Different characters have different styles, which make them interact differently with flow mechanics (like Meter).
Heroes start out a bit worse. However, they progress as they get meter, like how player characters progress in games. Their Supers are especially strong. Also, they get decent help if they're doing worse.
Heels are their opposite. Villains and rivals start out strong. After all, You Can't Thwart Stage One. They can use this advantage to get even stronger if they keep up the heat, and their Supers are terrifying. However, they're especially vulnerable to comebacks, losing their advantage and getting little help if they're doing poorly. This kind of momentum gameplay can be dangerous balance-wise, but heel characters often have disadvantages in Smash that make this issue less scary. I'm confident the balancing can work.
Scrappies are optimists, sidekicks, and underdogs trying their best. They're good at taking hits and avoiding the KO when they're down, and they have strong EX to climb and claw their way to victory. However, their Supers are less impressive, and they won't get much bonuses to actually increase their attack power and terrify opponents.
Balance characters balance out the other styles' meter dynamics.
Focus characters lessen the power of other character's styles, making style effects more mirrored betweent he two players.
For now, all characters have one style. I'd be open to expanding that, even to the maximum.
I DEFINITELY didn't do a bit of ideational framing stealing from a certain poster in this thread. But if I did, it would have been fun, because I love stealing.
- Bonuses
Successfully landing certain actions can improve your character, either by giving them extra meter, buffing them, nerfing the opponent, so on. Ultimate softly implements this with the First-Strike Advantage spirit, rewarding you for hitting your opponent first. There's all sorts of bonuses we could set up - landing a spike, landing a smash attack, doing enough damage in a combo, breaking shield, or even counterhit-style situations. These bonuses should encourage fun, even flashy play – there will not be a bonus for using twelve Link boomerangs in a row, somehow.
- Combo Scaling
As I talked about, random zero-to-death combos from the sky are not great for my vision of flow. If the stock ends in one neutral interaction, you didn't really even have time for flow dynamics to play out. So there will be some kind of soft or hard limit on combos, with scaling as one possibility but I'm not super picky on the details.
- Aesthetics
The sky is the limit for implementing flow into the fiber of the match. You're now winning as Ganondorf, and instead of stomping some poor sod into the the floor, you smash them in so hard it creates rubble. Change the lighting, change the music, add effects on the fighters, add effects on moves and movement, change the sound and weightiness of hits, and more.
- Roster Consciousness
FINALLY. The roster. To match the emphasis on flow and style, there should be a wide spread of different personalities that interact with game flow and showcase all the different styles.
Well that was a lot of talking. Here is the roster at release (not including DLCs, which are likely to change at least in part as new games get released.) It's also at the top of the post, but here is a smaller copy for convenience.
Total Characters: 61 + 14 Echoes (75 Total)
Let's go by franchise.
Mario: Mario / E-Dr. Mario (Hero), Luigi (Scrappy), Peach (Balance), Daisy (Heel), Bowser (Heel), and Rosalina (Focus) (6 + 1)
Pretty normal. I really like the main franchise having at least one of each style, and I'm not making compromises to force that dynamic – I really think each style is the best match for that character.
No new characters. I tried and tried and couldn't come up with anyone I thought made sense. Instead, I would give Daisy and Rosalina (notably lacking Luma) complete revamps, which will both help them mechanically (Daisy was a clone and Rosalina, while interesting and unique, was not super fun to have around) and character-wise (both are no longer so watered-down.)
Pokemon: Pikachu / Pichu (Hero / Scrappy), Pokemon Trainer (Balance), Mewtwo (Focus), Garchomp (Heel), Greninja (Balance), Koraidon / E-Miraidon (Hero) (6 + 2)
I really like this. Garchomp and Koraidon/Miraidon adds a lot of surprise, represent the time periods that needed representing, fit naturally into the style dynamic, and sound really fun mechanically. I was never too high on Garchomp here until I imagined it as a Heel. A Garchomp building up more and more momentum sounds absolutely terrifying lol. Really bringing Cynthia's Garchomp to life.
Zelda: Link (Hero), Zelda (Focus), Sheik (Balance), Ganondorf (Heel), Ganon (Heel) (5)
My primary goals here are to give Zelda someone new and preserve current Ganondorf for his iconic Smash-specific design and play. Adding Ganon to incorporate some long-awaited franchise abilities and magic makes everyone happy.
DK and Yoshi: Donkey Kong (Heel), Diddy Kong (Scrappy), King K. Rool (Heel), Yoshi (Hero), Kamek (Focus) (3 + 2)
Kamek gives Yoshi and Mario an offbeat but popular add. Heel DK sounds really fun and wild and works with his original, Mario Movie, and Smash portrayals.
Wario: Wario (Heel), Ashley (Focus), Penny (Scrappy) (3)
I was about ready to finalize the roster and actually completely forgot about him. Whoops!
Especially awkward because I had plans. I think this set of three plays off each other very well, especially with Ashley as more of a WarioWare stalwart and Penny as a newer addition. However, I can't justify 4 Wario reps, and I don't want to break this arrangement, so that is no new adds for Wario Land.
Metroid and Kirby: Samus / Dark Samus (Hero / Heel), Zero Suit Samus (Scrappy), Ridley (Heel), Kirby (Hero), King Dedede (Heel), Bandana Dee / E-Waddle Dee (Scrappy), Adeleine & Ribbon (Scrappy). (3 + 4 + 2)
Three with an echo is plenty for Metroid, and these three I think are the most important. There are swaps I'd be fundamentally fine with, but I see no reason to deviate from what works.
Kirby is funnier. I realized that Meta Knight and DDD had fundamentally similar functions as former kinda-scary enemies -> main party members, and that Dedede had more personality. I also realized that Kirby needed some new life, but I didn't want to leave either old Kirby or new Kirby out in this arrangement, but I also didn't want 3+2=5 Kirby characters. Sooo... yeah I got rid of Meta Knight. The team has consistently not figured out how to balance him to make him fun and interesting without being stupid and/or unfun, so here we go. I like him, even playing as him sometimes, and will be a bit sad to see him go, but I'm ready for a new vision of Smash that replaces instead of bloats, and removing him feels like a great embodiment of that.
I don't like Bandana Dee but I'm willing to let the grudge die. People like him and would be happy to see him and think it would be cool. OK. I'll satisfy my interests by having Waddle Dee base as an echo. He can have a very funny replacement for the spear to swing around – imagine him just slapping people with a wooden board. Hilarious. Adeleine and Ribbon and Dark Matter are my best candidates for old Kirby, being very specific to those games and emblematic of them, but I gave the happy fun cheer franchise the happy fun cheer rep.
Fire Emblem: Marth / E-Lucina (Hero / Focus), Roy / E-Chrom (Hero / Balance), Ike (Hero), Seiros (Heel) (4 + 2)
The more I go through this project, I realize my past effort, while fundamentally solid in several ways, lacked that spark of action to bring it to life. This FE roster is pristine for my vision. The echoes give some fun style mixup, but Seiros really brings it all together. No need to pretend Corrin and Byleth are these essential pieces, let's start beating people up and using black magic and becoming a Dragon with super.
(Having an Awakening character, and a magic user, and fewer sword-primaries for people to complain about, makes Robin easy to drop for me.)
Nintendo Misc.: Shulk (Hero), KOS-MOS (Focus), Territorial Rotbart (Heel), Olimar / E-Louie (Hero / Heel), Inkling (Balance), Mr. Grizz (Heel), Villager / E-Isabelle (Scrappy), Tom Nook (Heel), Mii (Balance), Mii Brawler (Hero), Mii Artist (Scrappy) (11 + 2)
Xenoblade, Animal Crossing, and Splatoon are on the upswing, and I think they'll find some pleasant surprises here that carry forward the energy of their franchises. Also, the Miis are due for a revamp. The current classes provide a lot of interesting gameplay flexibility but are awkwardly random / abstract and not super fun to play against. Brawler takes most from the sports, like Boxing, and maybe e.g. Find Mii too. Artist calls from sources like Flipnote, Swapnote, various photo taking/manipulation tools, and even the Mii Maker itself! Mii (Mii) calls from everything else, from Wii Play to Wii Party to Tomodachi and more! (Their appearance is fully customizable, like in Ultimate.)
Old Nintendo: Ness / E-Lucas (Hero / Scrappy), Pit / E-Dark Pit (Hero / Heel), Fox (Balance), Captain Falcon (Balance), Mr. Game and Watch (Balance), R.O.B. (Focus) (6 + 2)
The weird guys. I quite like the streamlining of one per franchise, it establishes that all these are fundamentally on the same playing field – important to Nintendo's history, or even gaming as a whole, but not doing a whole lot right now.
Third Parties and Bayo I guess: Bayonetta (Heel), Sonic / Shadow (Hero / Heel), Snake (Balance), Mega Man (Hero), Pac-Man (Balance), Ryu (Focus), Ken (Focus), Terry (Hero), Cloud (Hero), Steve (Balance) (10 + 1)
I want to keep this pretty contained pre-DLC, which will be disproportionately third party. Relatively high Fighting Game emphasis both because of the FG-like changes, and because their broader connections with Smash. I've also dispensed with the illusion that Ken is an Echo of Ryu. I get the narrative fun in calling him that, but he deviates way more than every single other Ultimate Echo.
Steve and Sonic will be heavily changed. And there was much rejoicing.
Style Splits:
Hero: 19
Heel: 19
Scrappy: 10
Balance: 13
Focus: 10
This is satisfactory to me. I would expect Hero and Heel to have more, since playable characters tend to be Heroes and and main antagonists tend to be Heels.
...ok this took like 3 hours so i'm not going to review it lol. we'll fix any mistakes in post :)
shoutouts to Yung Dramps, nya, Arhops, and Wifi for the help (intentional or otherwise)
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i mean this implies lucario isnt an iconic character, probably more iconic than snorlax even. even theorical genwunners will know about lucario unless theyre so detached to the franchise, which by then they're already fed with pikachu and pokemon trainer. snorlax is good merchandise bait, but lucario is much more of a /character/ that fits perfectly for fighting games AND better merchandise bait.
Super cool gameplay pitch you got here and a nice counterpart to mine: Nitty-gritty functionality vs a more "story-based" proposal that emphasizes the character interactions. As for some roster comments:
-I'm not entirely sure about the viability of Echo Fighter Miraidon, mainly because of how different their body shapes and primary attack methods in battle mode are. Most of the "echo" part in SV comes when they are mounts, unlike say Richter VS Simon.
-I'm steadily coming around to the idea of Ganon as a separate character, but for discussion's sake I'll bring in an alternate solution I've seen around the internet to the "Ganondorf's goofy Falcon clone moveset is too iconic" problem: Give Ganondorf himself the big overhaul Zelda fans have been asking for and then add Black Shadow from F-Zero with the original moveset ported onto him. I'd probably prefer doing this if it weren't for F-Zero's continued neglect making a second character nigh impossible to justify
-As an outsider I was confused by Territorial Rotbart until some googling yielded this. Him + KOS-MOS seem like pretty woke Xenoblade/saga additions but I wonder if he'd overlap a bit too much with DK and Mr. Grizz for the "big hairy beast" niche
-The Style mechanic giving a bit of added value to Echoes is neat, stuff like Dark Samus being a Heel version of Samus adds some playstyle differentiation
I don’t think Lucario is as iconic as it might seem. People were pretty miffed back in the Brawl days when he apparently replaced Mewtwo, and weren’t exactly ecstatic to see that again in Smash 4. The hype was astronomical when Mewtwo returned as DLC- if cut for two games I really don’t think Lucario could pull off the same.
Snorlax has proven a mainstay of the series even moreso than it, I would argue. It appeared as a roadblock again in Gens 2 and 6, was on your rival’s team in Gens 4 and 8, got a gigantamax form, became a game mascot for Pokemon Sleep, and not to mention Project Snorlax.
This is a valid counter but I don’t think Pokemon games are as insular as Final Fantasy or other “incarceration” franchises. See above about Snorlax. Whats more, I would argue that all the Pokemon I included in my roster are just as iconic, if not more, than 98% of FF’s character base, barring Cloud and Tifa and maybe the Black Mage and Chocobo. Had Cloud been added in Smash 64, Tifa in Melee and Sephiroth in Brawl, and all become beloved Smash mainstays, then I absolutely would consider keeping it just a line of FF7ers; space is limited, development of fighters takes time and resources.
The problem child really is Jigglypuff; it provides no meaningful representation for its franchise, and is locked in so automatically just because it was in the original game, which shouldn’t even really count because we know Sakurai don’t care about that, he was going to replace Ness with Lucas for Melee had Earthbound 64 not fell through. If I really wanted to adjust the Pokemon on my roster, relastically I would cut it in favor of Greninja; problem is I just enjoy playing as Jigglypuff too much.
The only other non-Genwun that has proven longstanding popularity, in my opinion, is Mimikyu, who would indeed make a fun fighter. Decidueye also has really cool moveset potential, that I would to flesh out, while not as iconic as Snorlax, maybe it would be a better fit. Pikachu / P.Trainer / Mewtwo / Greninja / Decidueye is a nice little spread.
What we really need is a Pokemon-only Smash spin-off….
I mean thats more so a specific smash community thing, and the pokemon are not meant to appeal to the smash community, they're meant to appeal to pokémon fans and be a good look for the brand.
maybe its a bit conspiracy of me, but the fact that the only leaks we got of gen 7 were the starters because of smash, despite these concept arts clearly all being available at the same-ish timeframe makes it clear that tpc was only interested in one of the gen 7 starters being a character. they know smash already has the big hits available, whether theyre used or not, so theyre just maximizing modern gen top cutters by only going starters lol. which makes snorlax a bit of a silly pick: it is popular like most gen 1 pokemon are but its much more of an environment piece or a merch design than it is anything else, AND they already have much better pickings for gen 1 available. Snorlax is a pokemon unite character, not a smash character
Anyways, something completely unrelated that popped into my head
>Books never getting finished
>TV adaptation collapsed in spectacular fashion
>New prequel show already mired in controversy with public shit-flinging between the author and TV staff
>No good videogames
>No movies
Is this the most cursed major franchise of the 21st century? Even NuStar Wars can still occasionally turn out good, finished products
>Books never getting finished
>TV adaptation collapsed in spectacular fashion
>New prequel show already mired in controversy with public shit-flinging between the author and TV staff
>No good videogames
>No movies
Is this the most cursed major franchise of the 21st century? Even NuStar Wars can still occasionally turn out good, finished products
If you're a fan of G.R.R.M.'s work in general and don't mind getting it from elsewhere, he did contribute quite a bit to the worldbuilding of Elden Ring, and I think you can definitely see his fingerprints on it if you compare it to FromSoft's prior works.
doubters will be in shambles when winds and dream drop in 2026/2027 respectively
How's Everyone's day going?