I don't think you realize how many of these pokemon already exist. Tyranitar, Heatran, and Gyarados all appear to fit this definition nearly perfectly.
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CAP 12 CAP 1 - Concept Submissions
- Thread starter reachzero
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I don't think you realize how many of these pokemon already exist. Tyranitar, Heatran, and Gyarados all appear to fit this definition nearly perfectly.
Tyranitar's fall is it's low speed, which allows it too be taken out by pretty much anything faster than it that has a physical fighting move.
Heatran also falls to Tyranitar easily.
Gyarados is wrecked by Thunderbolt.
I think this was badly worded in my original post. I meant to say that CAP1's counters should be pokemon that aren't too overused, but still relatively viable in an OU environment. The examples you listed all have counters that already enjoy high usage because they can also do other stuff. (Blaziken/Infernape, Tyranitar, and Starmie respectively)
Name: Special Sand Sweeper
General Description: Makes of sandstorm and sweeps on the special side.
Justification: Name one Pokemon with usable Special Attack that takes advantage of sandstorm. There isn't even an ability like Sand Strength that boost the Sp. Atk stat.
Questions To Be Answered:
Explanation: Most sandstorm teams are mainly defensive. With the release of Pokemon like Excadrill and Landorus, we're starting to see Sand become more offensive as well. However, there is yet to be a Specially Based pokemon that utilizes sandstorm. This pokemon would start to balance that out, and could serve as a counter against sand teams that invest in defense instead.
General Description: Makes of sandstorm and sweeps on the special side.
Justification: Name one Pokemon with usable Special Attack that takes advantage of sandstorm. There isn't even an ability like Sand Strength that boost the Sp. Atk stat.
Questions To Be Answered:
Do we really need a special sweeper for sandstorm?
- Can't people just use special sweepers that don't rely on sandstorm?
- Can this pokemon do well without sandstorm?
- What traits should such a sweeper have to gain the maximum out of Sandstorm?
- Can this pokemon make Sand Offense teams viable?
- How would people deal with an offense-based Sandstorm team?
Explanation: Most sandstorm teams are mainly defensive. With the release of Pokemon like Excadrill and Landorus, we're starting to see Sand become more offensive as well. However, there is yet to be a Specially Based pokemon that utilizes sandstorm. This pokemon would start to balance that out, and could serve as a counter against sand teams that invest in defense instead.
Sand Strength boosts power of Rock-, Ground-, and Steel-type moves regardless of whether they're physical or special.
And if you're looking for a Sandstorm user with good SpA, look no farther than Landlos. It tends to primarily use physical attacks, but it still has an excellent base 115 SpA.
There's some appeal to the concept, but as you have it, it's too specific, anyway.
Concept: "Weaponless"
Description: A pokemon which is able to pose a formidable offensive threat, despite having weak STAB moves.
Justification: Many of the new sweepers in generation 5 have access to powerful STAB moves and combinations which allow them to deal huge damage to a multitude of opposing pokemon, like Terakion or Blaziken. This pokemon would ideally be able to pose an offensive threat despite the low BP of its STAB moves. With this concept, we will be able to learn more about how useful STAB typing can be, and how a pokemon can succeed without having the monstrously powerful STAB moves common on most Generation 5 sweepers. The idea with this concept is not to simply create yet another powerful sweeper, but to learn just how useful STAB moves are to an offensive pokemon's success, and indeed whether an offensive pokemon is useful at all without them compared to the multitude of other powerful sweepers available.
Questions to be Answered:
Explanation: In generation 4, examples of pokemon that suffered from this sort of problem are Weavile and Electivire, both of which fell into disuse due to their inability to deal sufficient damage to bulkier pokemon. With this concept, we could give CAP 1 good dual attacking stats and excellent coverage, to allow it to hit a variety of pokemon hard, a huge Attack or Special Attack stat, or a way to reliably boost its stats in order to allow it to hit hard enough, despite the low BP of its STAB moves. Although this pokemon should be styled offensively, to suit the concept, it could also have some bulk, with a few (but not too many) support options such as Wish, to allow it to support its team and not be entirely useless when it's walled due to its lack of power. Physical/Special bias is not important.
Description: A pokemon which is able to pose a formidable offensive threat, despite having weak STAB moves.
Justification: Many of the new sweepers in generation 5 have access to powerful STAB moves and combinations which allow them to deal huge damage to a multitude of opposing pokemon, like Terakion or Blaziken. This pokemon would ideally be able to pose an offensive threat despite the low BP of its STAB moves. With this concept, we will be able to learn more about how useful STAB typing can be, and how a pokemon can succeed without having the monstrously powerful STAB moves common on most Generation 5 sweepers. The idea with this concept is not to simply create yet another powerful sweeper, but to learn just how useful STAB moves are to an offensive pokemon's success, and indeed whether an offensive pokemon is useful at all without them compared to the multitude of other powerful sweepers available.
Questions to be Answered:
- Can an attacking pokemon suceed at all without access to powerful STAB moves?
- How can a pokemon best overcome the lack of powerful STAB moves?
- How can this pokemon be made to do well against bulkier or more stallish teams, if at all?
- Will this pokemon be a simple attacker or utility check, or will it be able to sweep?
- Is there always a pokemon which can wall an attacker with a weak STAB move?
- What roles will this pokemon best be able to fill?
Explanation: In generation 4, examples of pokemon that suffered from this sort of problem are Weavile and Electivire, both of which fell into disuse due to their inability to deal sufficient damage to bulkier pokemon. With this concept, we could give CAP 1 good dual attacking stats and excellent coverage, to allow it to hit a variety of pokemon hard, a huge Attack or Special Attack stat, or a way to reliably boost its stats in order to allow it to hit hard enough, despite the low BP of its STAB moves. Although this pokemon should be styled offensively, to suit the concept, it could also have some bulk, with a few (but not too many) support options such as Wish, to allow it to support its team and not be entirely useless when it's walled due to its lack of power. Physical/Special bias is not important.
This could probably be a form of Playing with your toys suggested by Full_Korbe.
Name: Backfire
General Description: A Pokemon that uses its opponet's ability and/or moves against them.
Justification:
-It could prevent one Pokemon from dominating the metagame.
-It could bring back moves that were formerly thought to be useless.
Questions To Be Answered:
-Is this way too gimmicky?
-Does the Pokemon need support to be effective?
-Is the Pokemon too powerful?
Explanation:
This Pokemon could serve as a hard counter to Pokemon like Excadrill or Landorus.
Unlike Playing with your toys, this Pokemon will probably end up more offensive in nature.
This Pokemon could effectively utilize moves like Psych Up or Punishment.
Name: Backfire
General Description: A Pokemon that uses its opponet's ability and/or moves against them.
Justification:
-It could prevent one Pokemon from dominating the metagame.
-It could bring back moves that were formerly thought to be useless.
Questions To Be Answered:
-Is this way too gimmicky?
-Does the Pokemon need support to be effective?
-Is the Pokemon too powerful?
Explanation:
This Pokemon could serve as a hard counter to Pokemon like Excadrill or Landorus.
Unlike Playing with your toys, this Pokemon will probably end up more offensive in nature.
This Pokemon could effectively utilize moves like Psych Up or Punishment.
Lady of the Mists
Name: Lady of the Mists
General Description: A pokémon that abuses evasion/accuracy but poses very little threat, basically a long term staller.
Justification: Evasion/accuracy is a potent method that Is banned due to the fear of facing a sweeper which you can't hit, this pokémon would be able to wait out the effects of burn, toxic, curse etc. but wouldn't give its self an unfair advantage
Questions to be Answered:
■ Would this pokemon be weak enough to be KO'd by one lucky hit or would the opponent need to have some method to negate evasion/accuracy entirely IE Keen eye, Odor sleuth, Vital throw, etc.?
■ Should the pokemon be able to inflict stall moves or would it have to be switched in?
■ How badly would this pokemon be affected by stealth rock? (since its not accuracy based if the pokemon had a severe weakness to stealth rock, it could be an effective counter) Same goes for toxic spikes and/or spikes.
■ Could this pokemon be fit on to a variety of teams or would a specific team have to be built around it for it to succeed?
■ Would weather be able to break this setup?
Explanation: The biggest point on this I think is how this pokemon avoids being hit, I was thinking that an ability that allowed it to generate permanent fog would be the best way to go with it, fog would lower everyones accuracy and as such be less one sided. Perhaps this pokemon would also have a move that boosted its Evasions +2 but at the same time lowered its own Accuracy -2. Perhaps Fire/Ice typing to give it the steam effect while also having the major stealth rock weakness, fire/water could be used instead to lower the stealth rock damage. this pokemon could also have a variety of support moves, but very few offensive / defensive moves.
Reguarding Back to the basics, in order for one pokemon to pull this off It would have to be Unpredictable, have a large move pool and balanced stats that would allow it to be used anyway, almost like a weakened mew.
Weaponless can only have two types which it gets stab as such the best chocie would be Dark/ghost and fighting however CAP already has two pokemon that pull this of, not to mention Scrafty who is a real pokemon.
Name: Lady of the Mists
General Description: A pokémon that abuses evasion/accuracy but poses very little threat, basically a long term staller.
Justification: Evasion/accuracy is a potent method that Is banned due to the fear of facing a sweeper which you can't hit, this pokémon would be able to wait out the effects of burn, toxic, curse etc. but wouldn't give its self an unfair advantage
Questions to be Answered:
■ Would this pokemon be weak enough to be KO'd by one lucky hit or would the opponent need to have some method to negate evasion/accuracy entirely IE Keen eye, Odor sleuth, Vital throw, etc.?
■ Should the pokemon be able to inflict stall moves or would it have to be switched in?
■ How badly would this pokemon be affected by stealth rock? (since its not accuracy based if the pokemon had a severe weakness to stealth rock, it could be an effective counter) Same goes for toxic spikes and/or spikes.
■ Could this pokemon be fit on to a variety of teams or would a specific team have to be built around it for it to succeed?
■ Would weather be able to break this setup?
Explanation: The biggest point on this I think is how this pokemon avoids being hit, I was thinking that an ability that allowed it to generate permanent fog would be the best way to go with it, fog would lower everyones accuracy and as such be less one sided. Perhaps this pokemon would also have a move that boosted its Evasions +2 but at the same time lowered its own Accuracy -2. Perhaps Fire/Ice typing to give it the steam effect while also having the major stealth rock weakness, fire/water could be used instead to lower the stealth rock damage. this pokemon could also have a variety of support moves, but very few offensive / defensive moves.
Reguarding Back to the basics, in order for one pokemon to pull this off It would have to be Unpredictable, have a large move pool and balanced stats that would allow it to be used anyway, almost like a weakened mew.
Weaponless can only have two types which it gets stab as such the best chocie would be Dark/ghost and fighting however CAP already has two pokemon that pull this of, not to mention Scrafty who is a real pokemon.
Electivire, Weavile, Porygon2, Gengar, Gyarados, Jirachi, Scrafty, Togekiss...
okay, well my post was deleted for being to similar to this one, (it was called tier reverse) and it kinda was, but there are a few differences, which I would like to add as a suggestion: It would be able to check OU powerhouses that are used waaayyyy too much, ie. tyranitar and bring rise to many different NU-UU individuals, take Spinda for example, it says right here on the spinda page: "Seriously, what was GameFreak eating when they shat out this pitiful excuse for a Pokémon? It has a great movepool—in fact, it's one that extends out ad infinitum—but its stats went down the crapper.", Think about that, Spinda is capable of being the most irritating poke ever, it has access to (and keep in mind this does not include accuracy/evasion clause) tangled feet, double team, toxic or body slam, teeter dance, thrash (for tangled feet), attract, rock slide, rapid spin, calm mind, wish, baton bass, etc. etc. etc., that could create the ultimate parafusion-flinch attracted accuracy or whatever, yet it's never used because of it's pitiful stats, I want to make a CAP that would allow usage of any (or at least some of the) backwater poke(s) that is excluded by everyone, that would instantaneously fill the role of decentraliser and bring unpredictability to a whole new level, if pokes like masquerain and shuppet were used, or even baltoy or cacnea, or some other random poke you forgot existed, it would be pretty hard to predict their next move, I have an idea of how I could get people to use ridiculous pokes that could actually go as far as Pachirisu, but unfortunately this is only concept submissions, so I cannot specify any moves or abilities, etc., but plz consider, if you didn't know what to expect from your opponent, and masquerain and spinda were actually being used, then the metagame would implode, skitty would have a purpose, you wouldn't find tyranitar on every other team, etc, etc, etc.
Now don't get me wrong, I would give an arm and a pancreas for a Pokémon that could make Excadrill less common or Slaking less of a liability, but let's look at this realistically.
You are requesting the construction of a single Pokémon that BY VIRTUE OF ITS VERY EXISTENCE renders Pokémon as downtrodden as Pachirisu and Spinda as competitively viable as Garchomp and Heatran.
"ChippyYYZ hurt himself in confusion!"
For a bringer of decentralization and unpredictability, you can bet it will be on every team from now to forever, along with one or two of its counters, along with some of their counters.
Hi.
Here are a couple more reviews.
Eh, what are we to learn from this? Besides, there are so many Pokemon out that that already have poor STABs and pose a decent threat, why do you think Dusknoir is not in UU. Even so, are we going to go all the way just to remove a couple of moves from a Pokemon.
No matter what you do with this Pokemon it will either violate one of these conditions:
Here are a couple more reviews.
Eh, what are we to learn from this? Besides, there are so many Pokemon out that that already have poor STABs and pose a decent threat, why do you think Dusknoir is not in UU. Even so, are we going to go all the way just to remove a couple of moves from a Pokemon.
No matter what you do with this Pokemon it will either violate one of these conditions:
- Custom Abilities/Custom Moves are strictly forbidden - As posted by reachzero in OP
- No matter what you do with Evasion raising moves, they are still Evasion rasing moves; which are banned by Smogon.
Though not a surefire counter, Droughtales can come in, outspeed, and KO with a Fire-type attack of its choice. Just sayin.
Name: Ultimate Stop
General Description: A Pokemon that, while not necessarily being a top metagame threat, posses as a very imposing hurdle to overcome for many general strategies. Ideally, it would not be an overly-dominant force by itself, and not be able to setup its own win condition.
Justification: Have you ever found that perfect moment to setup with Scizor, getting 2 or 3 boosts from Swords Dance only to remember your opponent has a Rotom-W with a 4x resistance to Bullet Punch, and you find out the hard way it's packing HP Fire? That "Oh crud" moment is what this concept is trying to replicate.
There are so many potentially lethal setup strategies in BW, it's become near impossible to check them all. This concept will be to help people salvage themselves in those desperate situations.
Questions To Be Answered: How valuable is a stop all check to a team, relative to members who actually help push/progress the overall team strategy? In BW's high-offense/setup meta, I'm guessing the value of a 1-stop-check has risen greatly, even if said Pokemon does not have great ability to sweep/stall setup itself.
Explanation: Whether it be stall, defensive boosting, substitute backed sweeps, Landlos' RP sweep, Doryuuzu's SD Balloon Sweep, Rankurusu, etc. etc., there are so many lethal setups that people can use in BW, and it's near impossible to cover them all. The goal of this concept will be to stand as a huge road block to the majority of setups-- this should include most stat-uppers, and should ideally include being a threat to stall as well as immediately fast/powerful pokemon like Landlos, Excadrill, SpecsLatios and ScarfChomp. If it can do things like break past substitutes, destroy barriers, and smash through defensive boosts, even better.
To summarize: Rather than a Pokemon that kicks ass and takes the initiative and can take advantage of a good situation, let's try building a Pokemon that can save your ass in any number of bad situations.
General Description: A Pokemon that, while not necessarily being a top metagame threat, posses as a very imposing hurdle to overcome for many general strategies. Ideally, it would not be an overly-dominant force by itself, and not be able to setup its own win condition.
Justification: Have you ever found that perfect moment to setup with Scizor, getting 2 or 3 boosts from Swords Dance only to remember your opponent has a Rotom-W with a 4x resistance to Bullet Punch, and you find out the hard way it's packing HP Fire? That "Oh crud" moment is what this concept is trying to replicate.
There are so many potentially lethal setup strategies in BW, it's become near impossible to check them all. This concept will be to help people salvage themselves in those desperate situations.
Questions To Be Answered: How valuable is a stop all check to a team, relative to members who actually help push/progress the overall team strategy? In BW's high-offense/setup meta, I'm guessing the value of a 1-stop-check has risen greatly, even if said Pokemon does not have great ability to sweep/stall setup itself.
Explanation: Whether it be stall, defensive boosting, substitute backed sweeps, Landlos' RP sweep, Doryuuzu's SD Balloon Sweep, Rankurusu, etc. etc., there are so many lethal setups that people can use in BW, and it's near impossible to cover them all. The goal of this concept will be to stand as a huge road block to the majority of setups-- this should include most stat-uppers, and should ideally include being a threat to stall as well as immediately fast/powerful pokemon like Landlos, Excadrill, SpecsLatios and ScarfChomp. If it can do things like break past substitutes, destroy barriers, and smash through defensive boosts, even better.
To summarize: Rather than a Pokemon that kicks ass and takes the initiative and can take advantage of a good situation, let's try building a Pokemon that can save your ass in any number of bad situations.
These aren't questions about the metagame. They're questions about the Pokemon itself, and those aren't constructive in the slightest.
yeaaahhhh....... but it's counter would be (based on what I had in mind) anything weaker than it, and if everyone used it then (again, based on what I had in mind) then it would cancel itself out, as it would be weak, but against strong opponets, be stronger, (kinda like survival of the weakest) I cannot give details and I cannot say that it has to be my idea, but I'm saying it's possible for it to happen. If everyone carried a counter to it then that would be what were going for, that would mean everyone would be able to us a poke they like, my fave poke is shuckle, u probably figured that out just by my avatar/sig, Shuckle is in NU, yet I made a sweeper out of him. Now, if everyone had to carry one of the 421 non OU pokes (as of D/P/Pl, maybe 350 or so if you exclude the 1/3 stage pokes, just a guess) I don't think that would be too restricting, and if everyone was using weak pokes then I'm pretty sure the standard OU strong pokes wouldn't disappear, which would, again, bring rise to the new CAPmon, if everyone used the CAPmon, a counter, and a counter to that counter, then that would pretty much bring about any poke in the spectrum, but getting to the point, your'e saying it's either too hard to make or to be too overpowered or it forces people to include it on their team, I know it's not hard to make, if it's checked by weak pokes, it's definitely not overpowered, but overexcluded... maybe, I'm not saying it would be able to make any poke as viable as heatran or whatever, I'm saying it would allow pokes that are just about never used have a chance to actually BE used, if not for any other reason, than as a check to the CAPmon, and I don't think it will be used so greatly if it has 350+checks, (likely something like 450+ with gen 5) while only dealing with the 50 or so common threats (maybe 60 or 75 in gen 5) but regardless, it can't become a powerhouse, it can't become a high powered poke, with all the pokes running on the loose, a counter on every team isn't actually too much to ask for, you may have one already and not know it. The general concept is that it outstalls Blissey while under stalls spinda (why do I keep using it as an example?), it beats up Garchomp but lose to Dragonair, etc.
I'm fairly sure that you can't design a Pokemon countered by everything weaker than it that would educate us about the metagame. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the purpose of CAP is to learn more about the metagame, not to make it possible to use our favorites. It's just not feasible.
Firstly, you wouldn't be able to destroy all of OU with just one moveset. It would be too powerful.
Secondly, if you took the other route and made it weaker than every non-OU (including good Pokemon that are simply outclassed!) then it wouldn't do anything.
Or, you could make it a Pokemon that relies on hax.
Either way, you are attempting to make a Pokemon that centralizes the metagame into being a decentralized metagame. I'm sorry, but this idea is too convoluted to work.
Firstly, you wouldn't be able to destroy all of OU with just one moveset. It would be too powerful.
Secondly, if you took the other route and made it weaker than every non-OU (including good Pokemon that are simply outclassed!) then it wouldn't do anything.
Or, you could make it a Pokemon that relies on hax.
Either way, you are attempting to make a Pokemon that centralizes the metagame into being a decentralized metagame. I'm sorry, but this idea is too convoluted to work.
Dusknoir was OU last gen because it had dual 130 base defenses and Will-O-Wisp, as well as the ability to setup field effects. Its niche is as a defensive pokemon, like Dusclops in ADV, and like most walls, it mostly uses attacks to help it fill a defensive role i.e. KOing Gyarados with ThunderPunch. Sure, offensive sets are viable, but with only 100 base Attack, attacking sets aren't what kept it OU.
What we'd learn from it is how a pokemon could succeed offensively without strong STAB, and whether it would be able to sweep or just hit certain pokemon hard. What we'd be gaining overall is an understanding of what it takes to sweep, and what an offensive pokemon would need to bypass its lack of powerful STAB. For example, NPApe's powerful Fire Blast + Focus Blast combo is incredibly difficult to switch in on, with Tentacruel as its only full stop. Powerful STAB moves are what make Hyper Offense, and indeed any sweeper in OU possible; once dedicated walls are gone, they can sweep through the remainder of a team pretty much freely.
Without such powerful STAB, such scenarios aren't as easy, and may not be possible. Making such a sweeper work will require some serious discussion, and would help to answer the question of precisely what is necessary to make a sweeper "work" in this metagame filled with devastatingly powerful sweepers. Without strong STAB, we could explore all of the other options available to a sweeper, and create something entirely new in Gen 5 OU: a sweeper able to use its other options, like type coverage or ability, to be able to sweep, as opposed to the powerful STAB moves that traditionally make a sweeper so potent.
And Chou, forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the concept, but isn't Eccentric Ditto a good fit for almost all of your concept?
Which we have already tried to do with CAP 6 (Arghonaut), but resulted in just another centralized metagame with himself as a primary threat.
Making an offensive threat without strong moves (or other tools) that truly take advantage of its high offensive stats is very unappealing. We already know what happens to Pokemon like these (Electivire, Weavile, Luxray)...
With the even faster and harder hitting generation, a Pokemon like this will just fade away as a threat.
And that's precisely why I think creating such a pokemon is a good idea. Traditionally, they've never succeeded competitively, so trying to make one work through manipulation of a sweeper's other characteristics will be difficult, inspire a lot of discussion, and help the community to learn all of the traits that help a sweeper to survive and thrive in Gen 5 OU.
Hi guys. Be careful that you don't respond too frivolously here, because it is threadhogging. Say your piece and be on your way; don't constantly respond and banter back and forth repeatedly. It blocks other, less vocal users, from being noticed.
That said, the slate has been decided by myself and reach, so this will be closed soon. The poll will be up shortly.
That said, the slate has been decided by myself and reach, so this will be closed soon. The poll will be up shortly.
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