CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Poll

[Raikaria]

What happened to Beej?

Well, anyway, after thinking about Water vs Electric, I've decided to go for Electric. The point of CAP is to learn about the Metagame, and, let's face it, we're not going to learn anything from using Water, especially as we've already made a Water-type designed to counter the Top 10 [Argonaught]

So, Electric it is, in my veiw.

I'll reiterate what I said in the type discussion, as I still think it's valuable information that a lot of people may have missed. Also, I'll try to improve and better organize my thoughts:

Something many people seem to be forgetting is that this Pokemon is supposed to be customizable to counter specific threats. Barring an Arceus-like trait, typing is in no way customizable. Therefore, we should be looking for a typing that will have the least impact on CAP10's ability to counter, while making it able to be an effective utility counter. This is why the Fighting type is the best type.

Fighting has very few weaknesses and resistances, most of which do not see much use anyway. However, it has two key resistances that contribute to its use as a utility counter as a whole: stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Stealth Rock resistance lets it switch around with a bit more safely, while pursuit resistance prevents it from being locked in by something it's not meant to counter.

A glaring flaw in the Fighting type for a utility counter is it's powerful Fighting stab. However, being a fighting type does not guarantee a powerful fighting stab move, and if the fighting stab proves to be an issue, it can easily be alleviated in the movepool creation process.

Unfortunately, with Fighting trailing in the polls, I may find myself forced to vote for Electric, as I'd much, much rather see this CAP end up being Electric type than Water type. However, in addition to Fighting's flaw of a powerful base stab, Electric also carries with it a deadly ground weakness. Most people supporting Electric are likely thinking of slapping Levitate on CAP10 and not giving the ability another thought, but I believe this concept allows for much more creativity than that. As a side note, Electric also lacks the other minor advantages of stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Also, it is resistant to itself, a prominent offensive type, which is something we don't want.

Also, Steel is obviously the worst choice. With far too many resistances and some glaring weaknesses, Steel is doing far too much for CAP10 that cannot be customized away. The steel typing goes completely against the idea of a heavily customizable utility counter, and I can't wrap my head around why it's even being considered.

Just to comment on this, if you say Fighting is the most flexible type, due to lack of weaknesses and resistances, that means Electric is even better, due to having less weaknesses and resists.

Also, I am not intending to slap Levitate or Flying-type on an Electric CAP 10. We can be more imagineative than that! Besdies, there's such as thing as teammates, who can handle the Earthquakes. If we go for the 'tried and tested' we are not following the idea of CAP, to learn about the metagame. Cloneing Zapdos, or Rotom, or Suicune, or Machamp, is not going to teach us about the Meta.

 

[Seizen]

I have voted Electric type.

It's not that it has a lack of weaknesses or resistances, but, like Water type, it has gained the use of most of the move-types in the metagame. It has a lovely amount of STAB, but relying on STAB means the Utility Counter won't be doing it's job. Rather, I've seen an Electric Pokemon have Flamethrower at it's disposal, as well as Ice Beam. That's not bad, all things considering, as Electivire runs most of the physical moves as well. Giving us a solid base to work from? Perhaps, though that isn't important, I just wanted to prove that pure-Electric types could use common moves that normally they wouldn't be able to.

I know that Electric is weak to EQ. That's bad. That's really bad. But it can be changed to stop said weakness, or at least mitigate it. EQ is also effectively the only Ground move used in the game, apart from Earth Power on some Pokemon. The counter argument to being EQ weak is that not every set runs it. While almost every Pokemon in OU can run Earthquake, that doesn't mean they do, or even ought to. Besides, in practice, my Electivire is killed by STAB moves, such as Close Combat or Fire Blast, more often than EQ, because not many sets run it. It's effectively devoting 1/4 of your set to have a high Attack power move which can counter any Electric types, and Heatran. That's not really often enough to warrent use on more than two Pokemon. If that.

The final point I want to make is that we already know how Steel works, and how Water works from OU games - they each have different Pokemon which use different methods. We wouldn't be exploring much in that sense, while with Electric or Fighting, we'd have a certain... mysterious-nous to add to our CAP10 development. Plus, Electric has hardly any type combinations - it's combined with Water, Steel, Flying and Ghost, and that's a total of 8 Electric Pokemon with another typing. We could explore so many other areas.

 

[Alchemator]

I voted Fighting for reasons already stated by many more eloquent people.

I do, however, want to come back on the argument of the Fighting-type's powerful STAB as a flaw.

My lack of CAP experience may render this point void, but this is supposed to counter certain threats, not just wall them. Let us take, as an example, Tyranitar. This utility counter will need to wall and force out the big dinosaur, and it won't be doing that without a good move. If this CAP cannot force out such a threat as Tyranitar, then it will just be set up on and overpowered, rendering its usefulness void.

~Alch

 

[Objection]

Suppose that Steel is chosen as the primary type. This gives it weaknesses to Fire, Fighting and Ground. Now, where is it written that the secondary typing and ability have to get rid of any of these weaknesses?

 

[pastel]

Voted water accidentally, I wanted steel. I don't know if this will be conisedered. Like said before, having SR immunity is very, very good.

 

[DarkSlay]

Voted Electric. Like I stated in the Type Discussion, neutrality is key if we're going to counter individual threats. Defensively, one weakness is the epitome of this statement. Offensively, only three things resist Electric (Grass, Dragon, and Electric) and one other type is immune (Ground). We can easily deal with this immunity through simple movepool choices. This also is a very neutral aspect of the Electric type. While it does not retain as many resistances as Steel, it does not have weaknesses that need moderate to major tweaking in order for it to become more neutral. It also is unexplored territory, unlike Water. With that said, resistances to Steel and Electric is fairly valuable, and Flying is decent. I find Electric be the solid choice.

 

[Dominion]

Water type here.

Straying away from very common vulnerabilities will help this cap switch into very common enemies, as well as having a safe STAB to rely upon.

 

[JimBob]

Fighting looks good because of its resistance to UTurn and Stealth Rock, which is pretty great on almost any concept that is supposed to be a counter. Its STAB isn't fantastic, but that doesn't really matter since its movepool is presumably going to be pretty diverse, and it won't have to rely on STAB to counter stuff.

Electric is a lot better offensively, but not as good defensively, with a weakness to Earthquake of all things, and resistances that aren't really quite as useful. Sure, it's better on offense, but again, it will still presumable have a diverse movepool, and we aren't going to only be attacking with our STAB moves.

We have already built a couple fighting types, so what? If it's a typing that fits the concept, then why shouldn't we use it? I guess it would be more creative to build an electric type, but are we supposed to be being creative or fulfilling the concept to the best of our abilities? The very nature of this project is creative, we don't need to discount certain options because they have been done before in order to maximize creativity if those options are, in fact, the best. I think that Fighting is the best in this case, so I voted for that. If you think Electric is better, then vote for it, but don't vote for it on the basis that you don't want another Fighting type (or another Water type or Steel type) =\

 

[beej]

there are no electric types that can learn an ice move so far, and if we intend on being able to counter anything, including dragon types, that is an essential. Otherwise electric is another fine choice

First of all, this is blatantly incorrect. There are three Electric-types who learn Ice moves, those being Manectric, Electivire and Lanturn. Secondly, nobody should ever be voting for a type because "Pokemon of this type never learn move type x". If we feel that it is acceptable to break a GameFreak trend for the sake of creating a successful competitive Pokemon, then we will do so. Considering that this Pokemon is Utility Counter, there is going to be plenty of leeway for providing options for this Pokemon to respond to certain threats anyway, through attacking coverage or otherwise. This is something that really shouldn't be influencing votes, and I'm frustrated to see that it is.

 

[Zystral]

Electric seems to be winning as I post this.
I don't understand why, a resistance to Steel, Flying and Itself isn't the most useful things to have.
Sure, single Ground weakness may help in terms of overall survivability, but I think we should be looking at overall resistances and general useful-ness more. Hell, I think Steel is better than Electric.
As such, I voted Fighting due to Stealth Rock, Pursuit and U-Turn resistance.

 

[scampy]

I'm not sure why people are saying that Fighting has a poor offensive options for STAB compared to some of the other types on offer. Brick Break and Aura Sphere (base 75 and 90) isn't far off of Water's Waterfall and Surf (base 80 and 95), nor Electric's Thunderpunch and Thunderbolt (base 75 and 95).

That said, I'm not actually backing up Fighting. Although I think it would prove to be the most successful base type for our Utility Counter, I have voted for Electric because I feel we can learn a lot more from it and quite honestly it just feels like a way more interesting type. There are countless Water and Steel types in OU that fill a myriad of different roles already, and defensive Fighting has been played around with twice in the CAP project (compared to just once for Electric).

I also think that if we pick Fighting then we will, in an odd way, be slightly restricted. Water/Fight and Ghost/Fight would be great types for a Utility Counter, but people would be reluctant to choose those because it's been done before in CAP. Without a large amount of poll jumping I think I can safely predict that a secondary Dragon typing wouldn't be on the table for Electric, regardless of whether Cyclohm existed or not.

Pursuit resistance is a little overrated, methinks. You're only ever going to get Pursuited if you are weak to Dark, or if you have a frail physical defense stat (and as a Utility Counter, CAP10 will have to be tough on both sides). Being weak to Dark is a liability, but being resistant to it isn't super special.

Suppose that Steel is chosen as the primary type. This gives it weaknesses to Fire, Fighting and Ground. Now, where is it written that the secondary typing and ability have to get rid of any of these weaknesses?

It's generally a given that if CAP10 is going to succeed in countering specific Pokemon, it needs to avoid a weakness to some of the most common attacks in the game. If you are weak to Fighting, you can forget about ever countering Machamp and Lucario. If you are weak to Ground, then Mamoswine Salamence and Metagross become unassailable. Fire weakness stops CAP10 switching into Heatran and Infernape.

The ability can help against these guys without removing the weakness, but I don't think you can resolve so many issues with two choices of ability.

 

[familyguyman]

I voted Water. Electric would be me second pick since I do agree that it's an interesting path to go down; I just feel Water is a more safe pick with a proven track record. I think making a Water type that is different from the bulky Waters that exist but is still effective will be as interesting as exploring new ground with Electric.

 

[Aqueos]

And because only ground pokemon use ground attacks.

No, salamence tyranitar electivire metagross etc. run earthquake.
A few pokemon run earth power such as heatran.

 

[Gir!]

I agree with Zystral, the reason to choose Electric over Water or Fighitng(the 2 types I consider the best) is beyond me. Sure, it only has 1 weakness, but there are little to non bulky electrics, IIRC, only Zapdos fills that role effectively . A resistance to Steel is only helpful against Jirachi and Scizor, the first who eventually beats most Electric-types, and the second who should only use its Steel type move late-game or to revenge kill.

I went for Water due to its sheer balance, a resistance to 4 types, weakness to 2(one of which is relatively rare) usually bulky stats and good STAB is really convincing. On the other hand, I wouldnt mind Fighting to win either, as resistance to Rock/Dark/Bug is actually quite good, specially when considering many Pokemons that could be threats to some of the most used OUs are screwed by SR. All in all, I just hope Electric doesnt end up winning

 

[Objection]

Sure, it only has 1 weakness, but there are little to non bulky electrics

That doesn't mean we can't make a bulky electric, even if it still has an Earthquake weakness.

 

[Seizen]

@scampy: That may be the case, but Fighting isn't well-used - we have Fire/Fighting; Grass/Fighting; Water/Fighting; Psychic/Fighting; Steel/Fighting; Bug/Fighting and Poison/Fighting. None of those are overly looked into, and four of the seven are used in OU.
Also, the argument against STAB was that it has too much STAB going for it, what with STAB Focus Punch and STAB Close Combat. Both have phenomenal power, but with key disadvantages a Utility Counter can't properly deal with, in their opinions. Though Brick Break is a solid replacement: breaking through Light Screen/ Barrier for bonus damage is handy. Not necessary, but very useful.

 

[Deck Knight]

Suppose that Steel is chosen as the primary type. This gives it weaknesses to Fire, Fighting and Ground. Now, where is it written that the secondary typing and ability have to get rid of any of these weaknesses?

The fact no Steel type that doesn't address at least one of them effectively (Don't give me Zone, the infamous Steel Killer Zone runs Magnet Rise for that reason alone,and has the massive benefit of trapping) ever broke into OU. We had a whole thing on this in the discussion thread. No need to rehash it here.

 

[familyguyman]

The fact no Steel type that doesn't address at least one of them effectively (Don't give me Zone, the infamous Steel Killer Zone runs Magnet Rise for that reason alone,and has the massive benefit of trapping) ever broke into OU. We had a whole thing on this in the discussion thread. No need to rehash it here.

So true. What does Bronzong have over Registeel? Typing and an ability to bypass two of it's weaknesses. That's how big those weaknesses are.

 

[Objection]

The fact no Steel type that doesn't address at least one of them effectively ever broke into OU.

What about Lucario?

 

[Magmortified]

I see Electric as the most flexible typing from which Stats/Ability/Movepool can springboard off of to allow for a solid utility counter. Other types have solid cases for them, but I feel that strong points and weak points that we're going to try to plug up everywhere are going to be ultimately limiting for the purpose of being able to counter everything but only certain things at a time.

So Electric's a fair deal here, simply because it's neutral enough as a typing that it can be worked into what it's needed to be by virtue of the choices we'll set up, and the person using it will make, further down the line. Sure it's got relatively few strengths, but relatively few drawbacks make it a solid staging point from which we can move forward instead of having to cover up holes we left behind.

Or that's just what I think.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Voted Electric

Right, I may not remember all my reasons right now, but:


Reasoning: What I really want is for this CAP to have as few weaknesses as is humanely possible. I don't care whether Fighting's weaknesses are 'uncommon' or 'of little concern' - we don't want to be giving it such a big breach in its defences so early in construction, especially. There will be plenty of time for that later, I hope. Weaknesses are entirely insurmountable. In fact, better that a great weakness such as Ground exists, rather than two 'less important' ones such as Psychic and Flying, as the latter is absolutely sure to result in community apathy - that there is no reason to alter weaknesses through ability or such. Electric is an exceedingly neutral typing, with the same number of weaknesses as Normal, and considerably more resistances. I don't want to say anything about STAB, as I consider it a lesser objective, but none can deny that Electric is competent in this area as well. Another point I want to bring up is the fact that Electric has a lot of good types that it can dual-type with, if we decide against a single-type Pokemon, without exceeding two weaknesses (the sum total of which I believe is Normal, Water, Flying, Fighting, Poison, and Bug. Normal is a poor type combination admittedly, as it only adds a Fighting weakness, while Flying- and Bug-type give a Stealth Rock weakness, which is extremely bad; however, the other three types are all good options (and of note is that they were all considered for the primary typing, so if Electric is chosen and you wanted Water, you may still get your wish, something that will not happen well with Fighting).

 

[Deck Knight]

What about Lucario?

You mean the hyper-offensive mon who'd be absolutely nowhere without Extemespeed because so many faster mons can easily clock it in one shot? I don't see how Lucario is an example of Steel's defensive prowess. Lucario only functions when it can scare something enough to force a switch and get in Swords Dance unharmed. Or basically, on anything not carrying Fire, Ground, or Fighting moves on its current set.

The Toxic and Sandstorm immunities are nice but Lucario would probably be just as effective without Steel typing.

 

[scampy]

@scampy: That may be the case, but Fighting isn't well-used - we have Fire/Fighting; Grass/Fighting; Water/Fighting; Psychic/Fighting; Steel/Fighting; Bug/Fighting and Poison/Fighting. None of those are overly looked into, and four of the seven are used in OU.
Also, the argument against STAB was that it has too much STAB going for it, what with STAB Focus Punch and STAB Close Combat. Both have phenomenal power, but with key disadvantages a Utility Counter can't properly deal with, in their opinions. Though Brick Break is a solid replacement: breaking through Light Screen/ Barrier for bonus damage is handy. Not necessary, but very useful.

I believe that the argument against STAB was that while Fighting has many options, most options were unsuitable for a defensive Utility Counter. Close Combat has its defense drops, Focus Punch is just bad without a Substitute, Cross Chop has low PP... I just wanted to point out the fact that the "regular" STAB attacks of Fighting aren't too far from those of Water and Electric in terms of base power.

Looking at the list of dual types you just posted, it seems that Fighting has been seen before in many different forms. Fighting has also seen plenty of interesting variations through ability as well (Thick Fat Hariyama, Dry Skin Toxicroak, etc). Electric on the other hand has only been seen in 5 type variations (mono, Flying, Ghost, Water and Steel), and the most interesting ability it has ever gotten in terms of typing is Levitate or maybe Volt Absorb. In past CAP experiments, Fighting has been tried twice and Electric once. All in all, I think Electric is the least understood of the two and therefore is more deserving of being CAP10's primary typing.

 

[tangramman]

Voted Electric. As much as I was an advocate for Fighting, we've already got two Fighting-type CAPs, plenty of Bulky Waters, and many people, including myself, have discussed Steel's shortcomings. Basically, we can learn more from an Electric base than anything else.

 

[Midou]

It's very interesting how much secondary support has shifted to electric from many of the different camps (poison, fighting, water). Really, I have nothing against electric, I think it'd do the job we're set out to do swell, but I find that sticking to the concept is just as valuable as learning about the metagame (if not a little more so). Perhaps in doing so, we might learn more about the metagame itself.

Fighting has been done twice before, once more than electric, I get it. Both electric and fighting definitely have ways to go in exploration thanks to Game Freak's unequal distribution. CAP has created 2 fighting types already, but Rev and Argo are pretty different pokes in themselves, and different from any other fighting type in the game itself. This is somewhat testament at how well we can change it up, and the still vast territory we can explore with Fighting.

In regards to offense though, I'd have to say electric is slightly better than fighting due to more neutral coverage and lack of immunes in comparison. The more impressive offense though might not be such a good thing though. One of the reasons why I admire fighting offense so much is its balance in strength and weakness.