• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2

What should be CAP 10's concept?

  • Deck Knight's Dragons [No] Be Here

    Votes: 123 48.6%
  • reachzero's Utility Counter

    Votes: 130 51.4%

  • Total voters
    253
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
OH YEAH! I made the tie!

Moving on now, Utility Counter definitely sounds like the better bet. If Dragons really ARE the dominant force in the metagame, they can just as easily be beaten by the Utility CAP as they can with the Anti-Dragon CAP. I like the idea of a Pokemon that can be customized to counter a ton of Pokemon. It could give us the balance we need in this metagame

EDIT: Damn it, it's broken again. Meh, at least it's currently in UC's favor
 
Perhaps you don't understand at all that CAP 10, and all other CAPs are built without taking any other CAPs into account. You should drop the previous CAP mentions of Colossoil and Cyclohm because they are not existent in OU. Please remember that CAPs are playtested for 2 weeks after every CAP, and that is the playtesting period in which we are looking at.

Countering is not the same as attacking either, a counter is merely a pokemon who can switch into nearly all the pokemon's moves and retaliate. Perhaps you would like to try switching in a Weavile on a Salamence Draco Meteor, and tell me that it was a counter. You don't counter shit with a move, the pokemon does the actual countering, while the attack is only one half of it.

Perhaps those of you who claim Utility Counter is nigh impossible to achieve can riddle me this -- how would we make a Dragons No Be Here with:

1) The ability to beat everything that matches up with Dragons and Dragons itself, otherwise finding itself sucked into the core of centralization (hey almost everything pairs with dragons go figure)

2) The lack of Steel or Dragon typing, and to not create a new ability

3) A full guarantee after the first bullet is complete, we won't have made an entirely new centralizing force in the metagame in the process, even moreso than dragons because it literally has to beat everything to fulfill it's concept 100%?

Honestly, I find those three things very hard to achieve without making up numerous abilities and moves, which would give you a simple conclusion -- No, you can't counter dragons going a different way using what you have already.

Excuse me for poll jumping a bit here, but note that in reachzero's initial concept he mentioned Multitype in his explanation. Perhaps that is a legitimate way to head for this concept should it be picked? Don't discount what others have put into these concepts already.

And yet, if we march into UC, we need to work out how on earth to play it? I mean, to truly counter everything which is used often, we need to determine the greatest threats in the metagame, before choosing types, abilities and moveset. Multityping has weaknesses just as mono-typing does, so truly, unless we want a "cannot be 2x damaged" Pkmn, it'll be easily countered itself. If we choose ability-wise, we need to work out how on earth to use it properly and how it wouldn't get broken easily.

Moves counter Pkmn better than typing. Steel doesn't counter things, does it? But using moves which defeat Dragons from that Steel Pkmn does. There in lies the problem: both are counter projects. One is very diverse, and the other is countering that one type that seemingly dominates the metagame in combination with the only defence against it.

If we can only counter Dragon-type Pkmn the way we can right now... oh wait, that's everything I suggested. Status effects; indirect damage; super-effective moves; or stall. Plus, we're countering Dragons in general... so that means we're doing something that no Dragon Pkmn can properly stop from happening.
Meanwhile, a Utility Counter means the Pokemon has to be able to do a lot of different things... well, wait, that means we stop countering individual Pokemon, and start countering types or strategies. Otherwise, it's a wall to get hurt while you think up a new strategy when your counter cannot do its job.

Both are counter concepts, but Dragons-only seems too precise to you, and Utility seems too vague for me. Both seem to require precise typing and ability use to make them playable. I just feel that unfortunately, we're forced to choose between countering things in general, or countering Dragons in particular.
 
I voted for Dragons [No] Be Here.
The main reason I voted for this concept was because, just like many before me, I see a lack of direction in Utility Counter. At least, many voters (from what I can see) seem to envision Utility Counter as an Ultimate Counter, rather than just a plug, which I think is what reachzero had in mind.

Due to this reason many people have argued that Utility Counter could counter dragon-types just as easily as Dragons [No] be here. This is a rather unrealistic notion, when one realises that there are many other types that Utility Counter would have to fit. Sure it could counter them. But then again so can several other pokemon.

I think the idea behind Dragons [No] Be Here is not specifically meant to be a counter. There are so many different ways to counter a pokemon than just:
*Dragon X switches in
*CAP 10 switches in
*CAP 10 uses super-effective obliterating move
*Dragon is now countered

It is does not have to counter the Dragon-type, but (at least this was my impression) stop the overpowered Dragon moves like Outrage and Draco Meteor so that Dragons will have to rely on other methods to K.O. their opponents. Anyone can Dragon Dance on the switch and then proceed to obliterate the other team with Outrage.
Dragon [No] Be Here should (in my personal opinion, I'm not trying to define the concept) try and discourage this strategy, which doesn't necessarily mean instantly K.Oing the opposing dragon-type pokemon in question.
 
Moves counter Pkmn better than typing. Steel doesn't counter things, does it? But using moves which defeat Dragons from that Steel Pkmn does. There in lies the problem: both are counter projects. One is very diverse, and the other is countering that one type that seemingly dominates the metagame in combination with the only defence against it.
Okay, perhaps you did not fucking understand the concept of counter when I basically laid it out for you :/. The switch in is half the counter, the attack is the other half. Of course a type doesn't counter a pokemon, it requires the force out as well. In the same sense a move does not counter a pokemon unless it has the pokemon who has the typing to switch in as well. Now that you and I and hopefully everyone else is on the same page regarding fucking counters, we can move forward.

And yet, if we march into UC, we need to work out how on earth to play it? I mean, to truly counter everything which is used often, we need to determine the greatest threats in the metagame, before choosing types, abilities and moveset. Multityping has weaknesses just as mono-typing does, so truly, unless we want a "cannot be 2x damaged" Pkmn, it'll be easily countered itself. If we choose ability-wise, we need to work out how on earth to use it properly and how it wouldn't get broken easily.

I'm sure anyone who has played matches in OU know what the greatest threats in the metagame are. Multityping has weaknesses, so what? The concept is not to beat everything at once without leaving any weaknesses behind, the concept is to counter or at least check the majority of threats in OU, but not at the same time. In that sense, it would obviously have different "counters", so to speak.

Having a pokemon with no counters? Give me a shit or two, Colossoil doesn't have any counters and it's doing fine. Gengar has no counters and it's constantly fighting for a spot on teams against Rotom-a. Having no counters does not dictate uber status. In fact, what does define a uber is:


Offensive Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

None of these characteristics specifically say "NO COUNTERS, BROKEN". Rule of thumb for 4th gen is that it is impossible to counter everything at one given time, even with 6 pokemon. But hey, what has it got to do with a pokemon whose goal is completely different? I don't see surprise factor on that characteristic page either.

Meanwhile, a Utility Counter means the Pokemon has to be able to do a lot of different things... well, wait, that means we stop countering individual Pokemon, and start countering types or strategies. Otherwise, it's a wall to get hurt while you think up a new strategy when your counter cannot do its job.
I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here, let me assume that you're thinking Utility Counters will fail to counter individual pokemon and will focus on countering strategies itself, which is not the case. If you try building a team and find yourself stuck on a last member as you need a good response to x pokemon, utility counter is there. It in no way is supposed to stop team strategies of the opponent, that's simply what your team does. Countering strategies is one thing, countering a pokemon is another. One's for your team, the others are for your team mates.
 
And yet, if we march into UC, we need to work out how on earth to play it? I mean, to truly counter everything which is used often, we need to determine the greatest threats in the metagame, before choosing types, abilities and moveset. Multityping has weaknesses just as mono-typing does, so truly, unless we want a "cannot be 2x damaged" Pkmn, it'll be easily countered itself. If we choose ability-wise, we need to work out how on earth to use it properly and how it wouldn't get broken easily.
i'm not seeing what your point is here :/

moves counter Pkmn better than typing. Steel doesn't counter things, does it? But using moves which defeat Dragons from that Steel Pkmn does. There in lies the problem: both are counter projects. One is very diverse, and the other is countering that one type that seemingly dominates the metagame in combination with the only defence against it.
ummm, countering requires a combination of typing and moves. swampert is a heatran counter because it resists fire and ohkos with earthquake. if swampert was a grass/ground type, it would still be able to ohko heatran, but there's no way in hell it would counter it.

If we can only counter Dragon-type Pkmn the way we can right now... oh wait, that's everything I suggested. Status effects; indirect damage; super-effective moves; or stall.

actually, i think the main way of stopping salamence right now is by using scizor and bullet punch, which isn't any of those four.

Plus, we're countering Dragons in general... so that means we're doing something that no Dragon Pkmn can properly stop from happening.
Meanwhile, a Utility Counter means the Pokemon has to be able to do a lot of different things... well, wait, that means we stop countering individual Pokemon, and start countering types or strategies. Otherwise, it's a wall to get hurt while you think up a new strategy when your counter cannot do its job.

???

utility counter is definitely the way to go with this cap.
 
I fear the UC concept may end up a fluke, and I do not intend to hurt anyone's argument, I want to add what I was just thinking:

When Utility Counter says that it will be "incapable of countering a large amount of Pokemon at the same time", I see this as the potential failure of the Pokemon itself. As you decide that last Pokemon on your team, it's always sensible to pick the one that will eliminate your team's weaknesses. Can one specific Pokemon truly be the downfall of your entire team? How is it that you managed to build a perfect team out of the first 5 Pokemon, but forgot one major weakness? Wouldn't it be better to add the Pokemon who can cover even more?

What I mean is that UC may end up being a gimmick because of
A) you're picking a Pokemon that from the very beginning, you're assuming the opposition will carry your exact weakness. (and while that may be fail-safe if they do carry it, you'll have a useless Pokemon if they don't) and
B) you're picking a Pokemon whose usage will rise during playtesting and will inevitably have to use a set dedicated to countering itself.

What will the conclusion of CAP10 look like? A Pokemon used as a Salamence-gun or a Gyarados-gun or a CAP10-gun? Will it only provide a counter to Pokemon previously uncounterable? Pardon my arguments if they seem unreasonable. I just want to hear opinions and answers to my questions.

edit: Also answer me this: how does one Pokemon eliminate threats of a Special/Physical Pokemon when it has poor Special Defense/Defense? The only solution I can think of is (and pardon poll jumping) perfectly rounded stats. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it working out too well, people will work around it.
 
Perhaps a dragon counter could actually affect the metagame as a whole. (or possibly even affect Garchomp...)

It's ability would have to render their main stab useless, like an ability that absorbs Dragon type moves.
 
Reachzero's idea is brilliant, simply because it reflects the nature of the 4th gen competitive battling environment. It's the gen which is summed up as 'Too much threats in the metagame for one team to handle effectively' in the introduction to competitive battling.

Now, @ Elegy, that's a good point, but I see the UC concept as a starting point of a team rather than an emergency plug for your team's weaknesses. It's not easy to explain what I mean and I'd probably just confuse everyone, but that's how I see it.

ungulateman
 
Voted for the anti-dragon project.
I feel that this allows for a more guided approach to creating this CAP. For example, if we wanted to truly decentralize the metagame with this concept, would we simply use the almost essential steel resistance, or deal with it through a new ability or specific stat spreads and/or movepool.
UC just sounds like Porygon 2 and we already know it's affects on the metagame. Effective, yet overly specific and rather obsolete after it's taken out what it was tailored for.
 
I voted for Dragons. I just feel like the piecemeal, no-unifying-vision way we create CAPs is much more likely to produce something that matches the intent when it is so narrowly guided.

With the Utility Counter, everyone is going to be picturing something different and voting on individual characteristics accordingly. The result will be the average of many ideas, which will by no means necessarily be a coherent idea of its own.

With the Dragon counter, we all know exactly what the plan is. When someone suggests things like Ice STAB, an ability that absorbs Dragon attacks, etc., it will be obvious to other voters why they are suggesting these things. It is just way more likely to actually end up satisfying the initial concept.
 
Hmm... Both of these are definitely excellent abilities and I'd be happy with either of them. However, I feel that Decentralizer has some real interesting challenges going for it, should we choose it. Reading over the responses, Utility Counter is beginning to remind me of Decentralizer in a way. The goal with it was to help lower the centralization of the metagame by creating a Pokemon that can handle a number of the top 10 threats. While Arghonaut is indeed a very successful Pokemon, even though we were really keeping our eyes on just the top 10 Pokemon at most, because even just that portion of the metagame contains diverse threats, we wound up having to focus more on particular members of the top 10 (namely, the setup sweepers up there) in an attempt to make sure that Arghonaut would likely wind up being successful, and indeed, that is what happened at the end.

Thinking that over, if during CAP6 we decided that we couldn't (or in any case, it wasn't in our best interest to try to) make Arghonaut flexible enough to handle all of the top 10, is a concept where the goal is to make a Pokemon that has the ability to handle an even larger range of Pokemon, which are even more diverse from each other, really viable?

I suppose a response to that might be hear Utility Counter is more meant to be a flexible Pokemon that can handle a large number of Pokemon, but only a few at once (with the particulars depending on the set used or something along that line), whereas with Arghonaut wasn't quite so focused on the idea of flexibility, but rather be threatening to its targets regardless.

However, that leads to some different problem: in addition to making a flexible enough to actually be able to handle a large number of Pokemon as a whole, due to this second part of the concept, the method of using individual sets to only handle a small number of Pokemon at once runs the risk of making it too much of a specialist in actual gameplay. Through that method of accomplishing the goal, these individual sets run the risk of being outclassed by Pokemon like Blissey, which can easily handle a large number of Pokemon all at once with one basic set. Why use CAP 10 to handle a handful of threats on your team, when you can simply use a Pokemon like Blissey to handle all those same Pokemon and more that one particular set on it could handle, or Skarmory in the case of one of its other sets, or Tyranitar in the case of another, or Metagross in the case of yet another, etc.

Basically, in order to distinguish itself from them, the groups of Pokemon it handles with each set have to be fairly broad. However, then you get more towards the problem with Arghonaut again. Plus, it's pretty hard to outclass Pokemon like Blissey, Skarmory, or Tyranitar in their roles in an all-in-one Pokemon. Trying to do so, without having to resort to something like a new ability or one like Multitype, the closest we'd wind up to that would be Pokemon like Porygon-2 or Cresseila, both approaches that, while they do work, obviously don't work well-enough/aren't well looked upon as evidenced by the amount of usage they see.

Taking this all into consideration, while Utility Counter is definitely an interesting concept, it's one that I just can't really be sure how it will wind up. This is why Dragons [No] Be Here appeals to me grow. It's targeting a far more specific group of Pokemon, which have a lot more in common, which should help a lot in achieving a successful concept that winds up on track with the original concept. It also doesn't stand as much of a chance of winding up being an inferior-something or other, as no one Pokemon is really that apt at handling the Dragons, as with the right move, ones like Salamance have the ability to get around most of their checks, save uncommon stuff that no one seems to want to use to handle them, like Cresselia. Lastly, it provides a nice benefit to the metagame by having a definite, tangible, positive goal on it: reducing the centralization of the metagame around Dragons (and by extension, Steel-types, as one of their primary functions and reason their used is to try and stop said Dragons), resulting in a more diverse, balanced metagame.

Now, one might say that if that even if this Pokemon really is that great at beating Dragons, wouldn't the metagame just be replacing this Pokemon for some of the Steel usage, and otherwise be the same thing, only more centralized around CAP10 as an answer to Dragons than some of the Steels? Again, I turn to Arghonaut to answer this. It's concept was Decentralizer, and I believe there was some of the same worry about this there. However, the point wasn't to centralize the metagame around it instead of the Top 10--it was merely meant to be another option to handle some of them, and a very good one at that, and as a result decrease their usage, as with its presence, the number of viable ways to handle them went up.

It's the same thing with Deck's concept--the point is that with this Pokemon's presence, in addition to the already existing Steels and the like, the ease of finding a viable way to handle the Dragons to put on your team increases, and thus the usage of the Dragon's should decrease as a result. And since the concept is more focused than Arghonaut's originally was, on a group of Pokemon that have a lot more in common than the Top 10 at the time in general did, the concept should be just as, if not more, successful as Arghonaut and that's why, at least with my current understanding of them, that I prefer Deck Knight's concept more.

But in any case, even so, both concepts are definitely very interesting to me and I look forward to seeing just what kind of Pokemon we'll wind up this time, regardless of which one wins. Looks to be a very fun and interesting project (of course, it always winds up that way for me even if it doesn't seem to at first, so I suppose that's no surprise).
 
When Utility Counter says that it will be "incapable of countering a large amount of Pokemon at the same time", I see this as the potential failure of the Pokemon itself. As you decide that last Pokemon on your team, it's always sensible to pick the one that will eliminate your team's weaknesses. Can one specific Pokemon truly be the downfall of your entire team? How is it that you managed to build a perfect team out of the first 5 Pokemon, but forgot one major weakness? Wouldn't it be better to add the Pokemon who can cover even more?

It's quite possible that one specific Pokemon can down your whole team. You see many teams that are Lucario weak, Gyarados weak, or Salamence weak, yet they have an entire team of six. Even some incredibly good teams made by excellent battlers have specific weaknesses, be it SubCM Jirachi, Taunt Gyarados, or maybe even Dragon Dance Tyranitar. No matter how well built a team is, it will have one of these issues. I'm sure that you have experienced this kind of thing. Everyone has. The point of Utility Counter is to help solve those potential problems. You can build a good team of five, but you notice that Gyarados can be an issue, so you put in Utility Counter to help solve it. So what if your opponent doesn't happen to have Gyarados? That does not mean that Utility Counter has failed its concept, it just means that it's role as a Gyarados counter can't be fulfilled; however, it can be used for other Pokemon that are similar to Gyarados, such as other bulky Water-types.[/quote]

What I mean is that UC may end up being a gimmick because of
A) you're picking a Pokemon that from the very beginning, you're assuming the opposition will carry your exact weakness. (and while that may be fail-safe if they do carry it, you'll have a useless Pokemon if they don't) and
B) you're picking a Pokemon whose usage will rise during playtesting and will inevitably have to use a set dedicated to countering itself.

You can't be serious when you say that UC may end up being a gimmick. Like I said before, who cares if you build your UC Pokemon to be the perfect Gyarados counter, but your opponent doesn't have Gyarados? How exactly does Utility Counter become useless? It's saving you from a potential Gyarados weak. If your opponent does not have Gyarados, well that's too bad. Utility Counter can be used for other Pokemon that perform similarly to Gyarados, such as Kingdra or Suicune. An example of this would be Gliscor. Gliscor is used on many offensive teams just for the sole reason of Scizor and Lucario. However, if your opponent doesn't have those two threats, is Gliscor useless? No way. Gliscor can be used for other Pokemon that are similar to that of Lucario and Scizor, such as Heracross or Tyranitar, even though it wasn't built specifically for those Pokemon. This is what would most likely happen with Utility Counter. It still retains value in the team, as isn't just a utility counter, it's actually a Pokemon that can perform different tasks.

On the note of Utility Counter ending up countering itself, that is a horrible point to make. You are not going to be able to counter Utility Counter with your own Utility Counter. It's too diverse to accomplish that. However, just because you fail to counter something, it does not mean it is Uber. There are Pokemon in the OU metagame that have no counters, yet they are not Uber. Think of Gengar, Salamence, and in CAP, Colossoil.


What will the conclusion of CAP10 look like?

We won't know until we reach the conclusion.

A Pokemon used as a Salamence-gun or a Gyarados-gun or a CAP10-gun?

Yeah, it could be a Salamence or Gyarados gun, but no, it will not be a CAP10 gun.

Will it only provide a counter to Pokemon previously uncounterable?

Sure it will.

Pardon my arguments if they seem unreasonable. I just want to hear opinions and answers to my questions.

There are your answers.
 
You know, I just thought of something.

If we allow the Utility Counter Multitype, with the stats to defend almost anything as well as threaten it out offensively, wouldn't that just make it Arceus? I mean, we're obviously not making it 120 across the board and an exclusive move to ensure it always has STAB, but it'd be fairly redundant to do anything else with this concept other than just say "Hey, let's bring Arceus down to OU".

I might be oversimplifying things, but I'm getting the vibe that if we do create a Utility Counter, it'll end up eerily similar to something we already have, in which case its purpose is negated.

Perhaps you don't understand at all that CAP 10, and all other CAPs are built without taking any other CAPs into account.
Yeah, I've heard that before. The problem is that they're all played together and very well exist within the same metagame. We can play fantasy and pretend they don't all exist together, but the problem is that they do and we have no way of testing them otherwise.
 
Yeah, I've heard that before. The problem is that they're all played together and very well exist within the same metagame. We can play fantasy and pretend they don't all exist together, but the problem is that they do and we have no way of testing them otherwise.

When a new CAP is created, a playtesting ladder is created where all the other CAPs are banned. Thus, we can test CAP10 without the other CAPs, meaning CAP10 is created based off the current OU metagame.
 
I voted for Utility Counter. I think having a Pokemon that can fill in the gaps in any team would be incredibly useful, and not knowing which opposing mon it's been built to counter would allow for some serious mind games with your opponent.

I think the philosophy behind Dragons (No) Be Here is kind of self-contradicting. The people who support it argue that a utility counter would be useless because most of the time it would be dead weight. Yet at the same time, the basis for their concept rests on the idea that overwhelmingly powerful Dragon-types like Salamence and Latias are the star players on almost every offensive team, and that their heavy presence demands a reliable counter. I like the concept of a Utility Counter because I think it would cause a shift away from the predictable core of sweepers that is currently dominating the metagame - not just dragons, but Pokemon like Lucario and Infernape as well.

Also, as Reachzero previously said, Latias may very well become Uber again soon. I hate that fat asshole Salamence as much as the next guy, but do we really want to be stuck designing a CAP designed solely to counter him when we could be exploring something so much more versatile?
 
Goddamn timezones.
Wow, the argument's pretty close now. |: I think whichever wins will do so by a couple of votes. Both sides have really good points too.
However.
Want to look at Anti-Pokemon as a whole? I believe we already know what it does to CAP. You'll get sucked into the circle, and it starts all over again. Dragons No Be Here's only hope to accomplish this task is exactly this -- beat dragons while beating those that would pair up with dragons as a result. Without the latter, this pokemon would simply be sucked into the never ending cycle of dragon + dragon "counter".
Word.
 
I just feel that Utility Counter is too broad a subject. I mean, yes - it'll be awesome to make, but we'd need to start with that Pokemon rather than finish with it, if the team isn't going to be themed. And that defeats the point of it.
What Utility Counter suggests IMO is that we look into which Pokemon your team needs a counter for, and then we create the perfect counter. And seeing as every team has a different Pokemon they'd need or want to counter specifically, we would need to work that into the design.
As it is my opinion, this means that if UC wins, until we get into the actual design stage, I'm going to have a different opinion on who it could and maybe will work compared to you.

Still, I get what you're saying Plus, with D[N]BH, the idea is to remove the Dragon/Steel dominance, so we can't type it either of those; if we attempt to not use a new ability as well, then it's harder still; and depending on how it swings, it could end up being a Utility Counter but one focused on Dragons. Which is pointless. I agree that it's very difficult to do, and had thought that with those things, anything we could design - without moving into the extreme -would simply be almost a remake of an existing 'mon.

You're arguments are very good, and you are swaying me towards Utility Counter, but only if we went down the particular route - that being the counters the top Pkmn and ones which are very similar.
 
The poll is closed. reachzero's Utility Counter is now our concept for CAP 10. Congrats!

You can expect a Concept Assessment thread up soon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top