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As far as my defense, the reason I have a diverse offensive movepool is that nothing replaces Ice Beam and Blizzard in terms of coverage. My thought process is that Surf and Thunderbolt, while a decent combination, do not cover everything and specifically do not cover Grass and Dragon pokemon.
My reasoning is I did not want there to be a "standard" Krilowatt set. Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Filler has been shown to be a viable standard set time and time again, even in variants that use HP Electric over Thunderbolt. While it's possible to use HP Ice in the same manner, it's lack of power on opponents not named Salamence, Flygon, Dragonite, and Gliscor is notable. While this combination is possible on the physical spectrum, it's effectiveness is hampered because the Flying types all have speed-boosting moves and Roost to dampen Ice Punch's power, and a generally more physically defensive.
Essentially I want every Krilowatt set to approach each battle differently. Without a 3-move combo that covers 7 types (Dragon, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ground, Rock, Water) for super-effective damage and 17 for neutral damage, when you are building your team you will have to decide what the greatest threats are and build your moveset accordingly. In absence of Ice Beam/Blizzard I tried to expand the movepool as much as possible to account for many specific threats.
As far as the whole Crabhammer/pincers thing, the current users of Crabhammer are all crustaceans. The fact they have pincers on their claws is beside the point. We even have one Sprite Submission that takes an interpretation of the art as having pincers, since they could feasibly be hidden from view in the official art pose.
Not that I've played OU recently, but since when is Kingdra a common threat? Since when has there been a consensus that Krilowatt needs to counter Kingdra? If you want DM and Outrage, vote for movepools that include them, but to say that Beej should not allow any movepools without them sounds a little ridiculous to me.
When I create a movepool (which I've done in every CAP since #4, I just haven't submitted all of them) I try to create a good blend between competitive value and flavor. This is the same way I vote on movepools; I vote for the one that appeals most to me competitively without compromising "too much" flavor. Now I understand that CAP officially values competitive reasoning over flavor and the job of the TL is to ensure that all options in the polls have significant competitive merit, and this is why I've edited the elemental punches and Overheat into my submission after carefully considering them. That said, it's silly to argue that flavor doesn't matter in the slightest, and as someone who both bases his own votes partly on flavor and wants to appeal to others who do the same, Outrage and Draco Meteor are where I draw the line. I just don't see enough competitive significance to justify them.
Edit: Dragon Pulse has been added to my submission, but I still won't consider DM or Outrage.
Fact: Kingdra is an offensive threat
Fact: Krilowatt should be tailorable to beat specific offensive threats
Fact: Nothing Krilowatt can do that isn't Draco Meteor or Outrage can OHKO Kingdra and stop it (TWave is your best other chance, but God help you if it's using a Lum Berry or has Rest)
Conclusion: Krilowatt needs Draco Meteor and/or Outrage to realistically threaten Kingdra
Assumption: The only way of realistically threatening a pokemon is by OHKOing it.
Fact: Paralysing a pokemon incapacitates it.
Fact: Toxic Poisoning a pokemon limits the number of turns it can last for.
Fact: Being able to incapacitate a pokemon or limit its longevity = threatening it.
Fact: KOing a pokemon before it can KO you = threatening it, regardless of whether its an OHKO, a 2HKO or a 36HKO.
Interim conclusion: The assumption is false.
Conclusion: The reasoning provided is invalid.
Assumption: The only way of realistically threatening a pokemon is by OHKOing it.
Fact: Paralysing a pokemon incapacitates it.
Fact: Toxic Poisoning a pokemon limits the number of turns it can last for. Fact: Being able to incapacitate a pokemon or limit its longevity = threatening it.
Fact: KOing a pokemon before it can KO you = threatening it, regardless of whether its an OHKO, a 2HKO or a 36HKO.
Interim conclusion: The assumption is false.
Conclusion: The reasoning provided is invalid.
That is an assumption, not a fact. On dangerous offensive pokemon, Toxic does not limit longevity enough to matter. Thunder Wave does, but Thunder Wave fails against Sub Kingdra and Lum Kingdra.
Furthermore, Rising Dusk's argument assumes the possibility of incapacitating Kingdra, so your interpretation of his assumption is a strawman.
Finally, Draco Meteor cannot OHKO Kingdra. It can however 2HKO, where Dragon Pulse fails to do so. I think that was where Rising Dusk was going anyway. I forget if you still get the -2 SpA drop if you target a Substitute. If so then Sub Kingdra is still a nuisance, if not, it doesn't matter.
If you carry Trace, you can outspeed it still while under rain. Furthermore, DM can OHKO Substitute variants of Kingdra and Thunderbolt will break the Sub. Substitute variants will be very annoying by their very nature, but can be dealt with.
Code:
4/0 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra (Substitute Dragon Dance)
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 80.8% - 95.2%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 104.8% - 123.3%
Guaranteed KO without SR if you carry a LO (unlikely since you're probably running Trace in case it runs Rain Dance, but worth noting if you're running Magic Guard to handle the other dragons better). Reasonable chance with SR to beat it even with Leftovers. I see that as a pretty serious threat to Kingdra's life no matter how you cut it - enough that it will flee if it wants to escape alive. Thunder Wave, as Deck correctly pointed out, is beaten by Substitute and Lum Berry Kingdra, both of which are more common than you might give credit for.
The concept doesn't specify that it must deal with common threats only. Let me also say that by countering Kingdra, you also deal with Salamence and Flygon, which make up a large portion of the metagame. Finally, if you decide to go for Outrage, you can also nail Latias ridiculously hard. (Harder than with Payback) In lieu of this, I feel that Dragon-type attacks should be included in their fullest on Krilowatt's movepool simply by virtue of "If you can't beat a given threat, then it beats you." Krilowatt by its very concept should be able to handle all offensive threats when designed to by its user.
Objection said:
Assumption: The only way of realistically threatening a pokemon is by OHKOing it.
Fact: Paralysing a pokemon incapacitates it.
Fact: Toxic Poisoning a pokemon limits the number of turns it can last for.
Fact: Being able to incapacitate a pokemon or limit its longevity = threatening it.
Fact: KOing a pokemon before it can KO you = threatening it, regardless of whether its an OHKO, a 2HKO or a 36HKO.
Interim conclusion: The assumption is false.
Conclusion: The reasoning provided is invalid.
Deck already handled this extremely well, but I'd also like to point out that without Draco Meteor, Substitute DD Kingdra beats you. With DM and Tracing Swift Swim in Rain, you can break the Sub with a Thunderbolt and consequently OHKO with Draco Meteor - even if you carry Leftovers. Dragon Pulse on the same Kingdra, however...
Code:
4/0 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 52.1% - 61.6%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 67.8% - 80.1%
...fails to OHKO after Leftovers recovery is included. Dragon Pulse has something like a 0.5% chance to OHKO after the Leftovers recovery, made only ~50% ish if it also came in on SR. Draco Meteor is more reliable.
For fun:
Code:
128/0 Timid Leftovers Latias
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 34.8% - 41.4% (3HKO)
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 45% - 53.5% (2HKO)
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 54.1% - 64.3% (Chance to 2HKO after SR)
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 70.9% - 83.5% (2HKO)
Dragon Pulse generally fares better against this Latias.
4/0 Timid Choice Specs Latias
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 38.4% - 45.7%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 49.7% - 58.9%
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 59.6% - 70.9%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 78.1% - 92.1% (Chance to OHKO after SR)
Naive Life Orb Salamence
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 58.6% - 69.5% (Fail to KO after SR)
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 76.1% - 90% (Fail to KO without SR)
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 91.8% - 108.2% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 119% - 140.2% (OHKO)
4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Flygon
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 58.3% - 68.9%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Dragon Pulse : 75.5% - 89.4%
vs. 252 Timid Leftovers Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 90.1% - 106.6% (Chance to OHKO after SR)
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Krilowatt Draco Meteor : 117.2% - 138.4% (OHKO)
My argument for Draco Meteor is simply that I don't like the drop in special attack since it will force CAP out because it can no longer directly threat what it is supposed to, especially if said target is running Substitute. That same logic is also why I dislike the use of Overheat.
I've been constructing a movepool over the past couple of days, and I'll get it up tonight when I get back.
My argument for Draco Meteor is simply that I don't like the drop in special attack since it will force CAP out because it can no longer directly threat what it is supposed to, especially if said target is running Substitute. That same logic is also why I dislike the use of Overheat.
I've been constructing a movepool over the past couple of days, and I'll get it up tonight when I get back.
Just because it's in the movepool doesn't mean it has to be in the moveset. If you don't like Draco Meteor's Satk drop, don't use it when you use Krill.
Just because it's in the movepool doesn't mean it has to be in the moveset. If you don't like Draco Meteor's Satk drop, don't use it when you use Krill.
Ehh, I guess. I just didn't want to sound like I didn't want it because of flavor arguments or things like that.
Anyways, My movepool is below! I'll add some comments on it later so that you can see why I chose what moves, but I'm really busy, so I'll just post it for now.
Level Up:
- Scratch
- Harden
5- Metal Claw
9- Water Gun
14- Thundershock
19- Mud Sport
23- Water Pulse 28- Discharge
31- Camouflage 35- Crabhammer
39- Heart Swap
44- Slash
48- Zap Cannon
51- Guillotine
Moves of Competitive Merit:
Discharge: STAB with a nice chance of paralysis is always nice.
Crabhammer: Crabhammer is going to be one of CAP10's better physical STABs, so it should be included.
Heart Swap: This actually allows me to psuedo-haze set up sweepers, especially those that won't be affected by Trace.
TMs and HMs:
TM02 - Dragon Claw
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM06 - Toxic
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM13- Ice Beam
TM14 - Blizzard
TM17 - Protect
TM21 - Frustration
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM25 - Thunder
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 - Return
TM28 - Dig
TM29 - Psychic
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team
TM33 - Reflect
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM49 - Snatch
TM50 - Overheat
TM54 - False Swipe
TM55 - Brine
TM56 - Fling
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse
TM62 - Silver Wind
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM66 - Payback
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM70 - Flash
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM78 - Captivate
TM79 - Dark Pulse
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM81 - X-scissor
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM84 - Poison Jab
TM90 - Substitute
HM01 - Cut
HM03 - Surf
HM05 - Whirlpool
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM07 - Waterfall
HM08 - Rock Climb
Moves of Competitive Merit: Dragon Claw, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Earthquake, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Overheat, Dragon Pulse, Payback, Thunder Wave, Dark Pulse, Rock Slide, X-Scissor, Surf, Waterfall.
Some Explanations: I chose to keep Ice Beam and Blizzard because I preferred their uses in battle against Grass and Dragon types. Dragon Pulse and Dragon Claw are both offered up, however, to anybody who prefers to not use Ice Beam or Blizzard so they can have their way as well. Alternately, Rock Slide can be used to get rid of Mence and company for those who don't want to use Ice Beam. Dark Pulse allows CAP10 to continue to fulfill its rule of being able to counter only a group of threats, nailing Gengar and other Ghosts in return for losing coverage. In turn, Psychic is also present for CAP10 to hit Fighting-types with if needed (i.e. Machamp, Breloom)
I decided in the end after some thinking that Overheat could actually be a good idea when used in conjunction with Heart Swap, since it would severely cripple special/mixed sweepers and force them out. I decided to include Overheat in the end for these reasons. To not seem like a complete flavor-biased user (which I'm not lol), I also added in Draco Meteor after taking a time to look back at the arguments and seeing that Draco Meteor could work well thanks to the use of Heart Swap or Haze. Also, Draco Meteor is really only going to be used if I want to check Kingdra with CAP10, so its not a big hassle if I put it in the movepool.
I wanted CAP10 to solely be forcing out the threats it should be countering or directly attacking them, not supporting the rest of the team, which is why I omitted Rain Dance from the movepool.
Move Tutors:
Aqua Tail
Dive Earth Power Fire Punch
Fury Cutter Ice Punch Knock Off
Mud Slap Signal Beam
Sucker Punch
Swift Thunderpunch
Low Kick
Here I really went for great options that CAP10 could abuse. The elemental punches provide great coverage for those wanting to attack from the physical side. Earth Power provides a special attacking option to help hit grounded steels with, such as Metagross. Sucker Punch can be useful as a physical priority for those hoping to check Ghost and Psychics in OU. Low Kick tears into Blissey and Snorlax if that is what CAP10 should be dealing with.
Egg Moves (Water 1/ Bug) and Legal Egg Move Combinations(Feel free to check here, I feel like I missed a few):
Perish Song and Ice Shard (Lapras, Dewgong)
Haze and Mirror Coat (Blastoise, Milotic, Mantine)
Haze and Perish Song (Politoed)
Haze and Air Slash (Masquerain)
Haze and Night Slash (Kricketune)
Poison Fang and Night Slash (Drapion)
Night Slash and Air Slash (Scizor)
Draco Meteor and Haze (Dragonite)
Probably the most devastating of the above combos would be Haze and Draco Meteor, because it is a great way to rid yourself of the special attack drop. Perish Song also acts as a psuedo-hazing move, and Night Slash comes in as another physical option to hit ghost types with.
(Note: Azumarill cannot learn both Fake Tears and Perish Song through the same Azumarill, so it is impossible to get this combo.)
Flavor Choices and Overall Comments:
I'm really happy with how the movepool turned out from a competitive basis. It has plenty of coverage to allow users to directly threat any Pokemon in OU with harsh attacks (of course, not all at the same time). I also placed in a lot of cool flavor moves: Metal Claw, Slash, Poison Jab, Fury Cutter, and Guillotine.
Deck Knight: I appreciate your points and the reasoning behind your defense, and I sympathize with your thoughts on the typical Surf/Tbolt/Ibeam thing, but at the same time, I find it sort of unreasonable to deny any Water-type an Ice move, especially one that literally every Water-type (except Magikarp) gets. Honestly, I don't see that becoming a common Kril set just because there are still lots of things that Surf/Tbolt/Ibeam/(filler) does NOT counter, and anyone who fits that bill WILL take advantage of Kril like that... so mostly, I feel like that fear is unfounded, but I appreciate your concerns on the matter and your effort to make sure Krilowatt's movepool is particularly offensively diverse.
Oh also, I don't think that the whole Crabhammer / pincers thing is at all beside the point, and I think it's a mistake to assume that 'all Crabhammer users are crustaceans = all crustaceans are Crabhammer users', because there's the matter of crustaceans like Armaldo and Kabutops (who have similar forelimbs to Krilowatt) that also don't get it, thus my point. However, I think the sprite thing is a good point, and I suppose I'd be okay with it if Chaoscrippler's sprite was used (or maybe it's gender-exclusive... that might be interesting. :0 ...and weird).
TM30: It's not that Kingdra is a common threat, it's that Kril doesn't have anything (outside of Dragon moves and Thunder Wave, the latter of which most Kingdra carry Lum to counter) to directly threaten Kingdra with, which makes it easy for Kingdra to set up on and start a sweep against Krilowatt, which makes it a deadly potential counter. Besides, how effective a Pokemon is has nothing to do with how common it is, and Kingdra is plenty effective.
I actually have to mostly agree with Dusk on the Kingdra argument; outside of Outrage and DM, Kril is gonna have a tough time handling Kingdra. I personally like the idea of having Imprison + Outrage, as it not only keeps Kingdra from hitting it with anything that isn't NFE, (the occasional barring Draco Meteor of Dra's own) but also keeps Salamence from using it while preventing the necessity of using Draco Meteor. I happen to think that this is the best route to go if we want to omit Draco Meteor (and by the looks of it, I'm one of the only people who feels it should be).
I didn't put a lot of time into the EVs or anything else because I just wanted to demonstrate the (I hope) practical usage of Imprison. With this set, you can Imprison the Outrages of Kingdra and Salamence, as well as the Earthquakes of the latter in addition to Swampert, Flygon, and anyone else who might potentially counter it with Earthquake otherwise. As far as I can tell, Outrage and Earthquake are the most common / best moves that Kril wants to Imprison; as far as special moves go, Draco Meteor is an obvious one, but it seems like physical Imprison works better. Thunderbolt is also a STAB possiblity in place of Waterfall, so that things like Zapdos and Jolteon have a hard time hitting it with their electric STABs, but that forces him to go mixed and makes his attacks less effective. Also, in most cases, Imprison needs to be used on the counter's switchin or before they boost with anything to work properly.
What do people think of this? It seems to me like a valid way to beat Kingdra and a couple other things that might otherwise beat Kril, but is there maybe anything I overlooked about the set?
....knowut, I think I'll make my own movepool after all. Back in a day or three for that if that's not too late by then.
Clearly I didn't explain my position properly earlier. In spite of Krilowatt's impressive stats, abilties and now movepool, I never seriously considered the possibility that it might be able to counter "virtually any" offensive threat. So when Rising Dusk decided that Outrage and DM should basically be required because of Kingdra, my thinking was, "Okay, it's just Kingdra. One threat, and not even a very common one in the current metagame. What's the problem?" What I meant wasn't that Kingdra should be ignored because it's uncommon, but that it's ridiculous to say that a submission should not be accepted because it fails to stop one relatively uncommon threat.
On the other hand, Dusk is right to say that every offensive threat should be possible to counter, and the idea of countering Kingdra does particularly interst me for a few reasons. For one thing it provides another viable use for Trace, which may encourage its use over Magic Guard, which would be a good thing in my opinion. The idea of allowinng Kril to be the ultimate Dragon killer also appeals to me, since it may end some of the endless whining about Dragons (overhyping them IMO) that we see here on Smogon. These are convincing reasons.
On to flavor. There is absolutely no flavor justification for Draco Meteor, but I did reconsider Outrage. Outrage's flavor is simple: it's given to particularly large and/or angry pokemon. Since Krilowatt doesn't remotely strike me as either of these, Outrage can be included for the sort of "comedy," that had some people voting for this art after the stat spread was chosen and talking about "the shrimp Seismic Tossing Gyarados". I'm generally against that kind of thing, but the voters seem to like it and I am sort of interested in countering Kingdra.
So here's what I'll do: Outrage will be included in my submission as an egg move only. This creates a little more flavor justification through "dragon genes" or something along those lines. This may not necessarily be my final decision, since I'm still not fully convinced that it's the right balance of competitive merit and flavor, but it's arguably "close enough" and in the end I obviously want my movepool to win. Outrage will be edited in now, and this post will be also edited if I decide to remove it later.
I'll end this with my opinion on some other moves that have been discussed. You'll notice that Crabhammer isn't in my submission. I don't care what's a crustacean and who has pincers; Crabhammer was excluded because the shrimp's claws look too small and weak to be "hammering" anything. People say that Crabhammer is a competitive move, but I'm not convinced that it's important when Aqua Tail and Waterfall are already around. On the other hand, while I have roughly the same flavor argument against the elemental punches, Rising Dusk is absolutely right about their competitive importance, so I included them anyway.
Keeping this short. I am all for Deck Knight's submission right now as I feel that his exclusion of Ice Beam and Blizzard will make Krilowatt sets SO much more interesting and diverse. Banyru, I don't see why you think that the 'cookie-cutter' fear is unfounded. That set of moves is tremendously helpful on a team and Krilowatt will be a bulky, fast pokemon with STAB on both Surf & Thunderbolt and a ridiculous ability. It is just begging to be used for that more than a 'utility' counter and I think that is what we will see the most of should it be a possible moveset. I understand your flavor argument but you must admit that if these fears are well founded it is incredibly necessary for the concept.
As to the wildly controversial (not surprisingly) dragon moves I see the flavor point with Draco Meteor but whole-heartedly agree that it is needed; especially with my stance on leaving Ice Beam off. I would like the rest of the people who are submitting to consider leaving out Ice Beam/Blizzard as Deck Knight has.
Rising_Dusk and Jibaku are my favorites so far; I'm looking for Ice Beam, Ice Punch, and Perish Song as necessities, with Imprison as a bonus (Imprison is the main reason I prefer these two over Admiral_Korski's). As I've noted several times already, I've heavily opposed to any movepool that doesn't have Ice Beam; I would like for Krilowatt to be as predictable as possible offensively so that I actually know how to handle it rather than having to guess wildly as to what set it is running.
Right, I'm going to bring fourth my movepool ideas.
Firstly, some reasoning:
Krillowatt is a utility counter, but what it's supposed to counter any not be on the other team. This is why I feel that denying it a moveset like Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Filler is a bad idea. Besides, with mediocre Sp.Attack, even with Life Orb, Krillowatt is going to fail to be a sweeper, a point I've reiterated multiple times.
However, I am against giving Krillowatt EITHER of the high-power Dragon-type attacks. Otherwise, every Krill set will carry DM, just so it can be spammed on the inevitable switch, or it'll be used as an Outrage cleaner. Sets like Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Draco Meteor WILL be standard. Besides, those two moves are controvertial anyway, and there's o way that Krillowatt can get Draco Meteor, due to... not being a Dragon.
Also, I have allowed Rain Dance, but I have disallowed Thunder, so Krillowatt cannot abuse it as much.
Crunch X-Scissor [Also TM, so dosen't really count]
Air Slash
Metal Claw
Crabhammer Aqua Jet Earth Power
Night Slash Slash
Notable Illegals:
Aqua Jet + Crunch/Night Slash is illegal
Aqua Jet + Crabhammer is illegal
Tutor Moves:
Ice Punch
Thunderpunch Icy Wind Sucker Punch Zen Headbutt Aqua Tail
Earth Power
Signal Beam
Twister
Endeavor
Bug Bite
Basically, with my movepool, I've gone for coverage, giving Krillowatt the tools to hit any type, but, I've generally skipped out on the more powerful attacks. There's Brick Break, but no Superpower. There's Thunderbolt, but no Thunder. There's Dragon Pulse and Dragon Claw, but no Outrage and Draco Meteor.
Also, note the high number of claw and slashing based moves. That's for flavor.
Krill lacks Fire and Poision-type moves simply because it's not needed. Poision dosen't hit anything bar Grass, and the only things Fire gets which are not already covered, are killed by HP Fire.
Please stop arguing about the flavor of these movepools. Mentioning flavor is one thing -- arguing over it, is another.
Flavor is definitely part of a complete movepool submission, and movepool creators are encouraged to make movepools that "fit" within the spirit and example of the actual pokemon game. Movepool creators are also encouraged to explain the flavor background behind their movepools. For example, Admiral Korski did a fantastic job of this in his movepool description.
But movepool commenters should not divert this thread by getting into arguments over stupid stuff like the size of a shrimp's pincers, whether a seahorse (Kingdra) can get Dragon moves but a shrimp (Krilowatt) cannot, or the requisite body size of a pokemon necessary to justify Outrage. These issues cannot be reasonably argued. You either like it, or you don't. Feel free to mention to a movepool creator, if the flavor aspects of their movepool are appealing or unappealing to you. But then LET IT GO. Do not get into back-and-forths in this thread over flavor.
And for the second time in CAP10, I am calling out Banryu specifically for instigating most of these bullshit flavor arguments. Banryu -- since you seem to be incredibly interested in discussing flavor topics -- I highly suggest you join the The Kitchen social group, and take your discussions there. Your incessant whining over flavor in these threads is distracting the main competitive objectives of the discussion, and I am about to remove your access to the entire CAP forum if you don't cut it out. I will not warn you about this again.
That is an assumption, not a fact. On dangerous offensive pokemon, Toxic does not limit longevity enough to matter. Thunder Wave does, but Thunder Wave fails against Sub Kingdra and Lum Kingdra.
Furthermore, Rising Dusk's argument assumes the possibility of incapacitating Kingdra, so your interpretation of his assumption is a strawman.
Finally, Draco Meteor cannot OHKO Kingdra. It can however 2HKO, where Dragon Pulse fails to do so. I think that was where Rising Dusk was going anyway. I forget if you still get the -2 SpA drop if you target a Substitute. If so then Sub Kingdra is still a nuisance, if not, it doesn't matter.
The thing is, Rising Dusk dismissed Thunder Wave too quickly. Just because Thunder Wave fails the first time against Lum Kingdra doesn't mean it's useless against Lum Kingdra because you can fire it again. Regarding Toxic, even offensive threats don't like losing extra HP per turn for any reason since it makes them easier to KO with weaker moves. Bottom line is, unless a pokemon benefits from status, it hates all forms of status that it isn't immune to.
Fact: Being able to incapacitate a pokemon or limit its longevity = threatening it.
Incidentally, why is it that CAP10 has to run Leftovers on all of its movesets? What's wrong with one of the plates, Expert Belt, Life Orb or even a choice item? Choice Specs Dragon Pulse is only slightly less powerful than unboosted Draco Meteor (and Life Orb Dragon Pulse is more powerful after two hits than Draco Meteor), and it means that the CAP10 user has to put effort into customising their CAP10 set, making their set more specialist, and specialised sets to counter certain pokemon are what this concept is about.
On the other hand, how much do we care about the concept now?
Firstly, I like Rising Dusk's movepool a lot. A LOT.
Secondly, kudos to Deck for omitting Ice Beam and Blizzard. Very interesting reasoning, but I feel detracts from CAP10.
Everyone's movepool so far has a gimmick or two. Something missing or a few Egg Move combos that set them apart. Well, mine's not exactly out-of-this world in that sense, but I have tried to cram almost everything into my movepool allowed. Everything competitive gives Krilowatt something in terms of a competitive edge, yet everything has its own drawbacks, and I think that certain things put together makes for certain drawbacks which justifies the inclusion of one or two things.
Cleared for Final Submission by BEEJ, and is in the condition of such.
Egg Groups: Water 3 / Dragon
Now, you'll notice I've put Krilowatt in the Dragon group. This is interesting because one of the more interesting Dragons in existence is Altaria, and as I will demonstrate, Altaria gives Krilowatt Draco Meteor and Power Swap. This was the primary reason for giving Krilowatt the Dragon egg group. The second reason is a bit flavour-based but since Draco Meteor can only be tutored to Dragon-typed Mons, I found that odd.
Also interesting is that with the wide movepools of Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp, very few usable moves come from those parents, at most being Crunch and Draco Meteor. This was accidentaly, but helps more in that there's certain parents for certain moves.
Water 3 now, I chose since it was probably the most inhibitive and smallest Water egg group. The fact that Kingler and Crawdawnt were there is a secondary reason. The first is that I didn't want things such as Aqua Ring, Heart Swap (Water-1 god forbid) or Imprison to be limited options for Krilowatt. Notably, I put those in the Level-Up pool. Confuse Ray and Rock Blast are the notable suspects in the interesting moves here.
Mirror Coat + Counter = Illegal
Counter + Crunch = Sceptile
Crabhammer + Aqua Jet = Illegal Draco Meteor + Power Swap = Altaria
Metal Sound + Draco Meteor = Illegal
Confuse Ray + Metal Sound = Kabutops
Confuse Ray + Mirror Coat = Tentacruel, Cradily, Corsola, Milotic (Corsola adds Rock Blast and Spike Cannon) Crunch + Confuse Ray = Drapion (Crunch lowers their Def, they hit themselves harder)
Rock Blast + Spike Cannon = Cloyster, Omastar, Corsola
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Code:
Dive
Fire Punch
Fury Cutter
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Sucker Punch
Thunderpunch
Helping Hand
Last Resort
Fury Cutter
Headbutt
Magnet Rise
Snore
Swift
Uproar
Aqua Tail
Earth Power
Iron Head
Outrage
Signal Beam
Twister
Magic Coat
Low Kick
Superpower
Hydro Cannon
Mainly, when building the tutor list, I started off by looking at the allowed moves I had left (after TMs and Egg Moves), thinking "what is tutorable?" and basically delegated most things left into Tutor. Mainly, most of the options in Tutor that aren't in TMs or Egg Moves are things that Krilowatt should have easy access to, since the Egg Moves are a lot more limiting, they're a lot more useful. Most tutor moves are there solely for coverage. Hydro Cannon is there simply for a laugh.
Superpower - As many have said, it gives Krilowatt too easy an answer to Blissey. However, if you are running Superpower, it is assumed that you will have a physical movepool, therefore Blissey has nothing to do with you anyway. If you are running a Special set, there is always the possibility that Superpower is there in the wings specifically to combat Blissey. It's this predictability that I have aimed for which is why Superpower sits there. They should know Superpower coming since it hits Tyranitar, Lucario, Blissey, Snorlax, and plenty of others. They should predict around that. Since the Concept Analysis, I have echoed that Krilowatt should be easily countered itself depending on what set it runs. Superpower is one method, since if they Superpower anyway, you can pick it off since it has -1 Def.
Signal Beam - When this was first coming under discussion, I was against it - 'X-Scissor or Payback hits Latias harder' was my main argument. Of course, something else eventually made Signal Beam squirm into my movepool. Celebi. Without a doubt, Celebi usage will rise with Krilowatt, with Choice Scarfed Leaf Storms flying left-right-center. Of course, I don't want Krilowatt to be able to knock down its most common counter (and you have to catch Celebi on the switch to KO it with Signal Beam), but eventually, Scarfed Celebi will become an offensive threat on its own which Krilowatt will have to counter.
Most TMs suck, really. What sucks even more is that some of the useless ones are required, like Captivate and Safeguard. TMs was the first subsection I worked on, actually, I just took everything that is a TM and made it such. Thunder appears in the Level-Up pool but I'll expand on that later. There's not much else except most of my TM movepool is full of flavour (Aerial Ace, Iron Tail, etc.), which I think makes Krilowatt more human. You treat it more like a real Pokémon since it has a bunch of moves that look cool but you'd never use outside of in-game.
Rain Dance + Thunder (+ Surf) - Rain Dance seems too good on Krilowatt. It makes Krilowatt's best (in my movepool) Electric-STAB move have 100% Accuracy and boosts the power of all his other STAB moves by 50%. However, with Rain Dance, you are limited to one coverage move. Sure, Electric/Water gives stunning coverage, but if you use Superpower to kill Blissey, Swampert isn't afraid of you. Rain Dancing Krilowatt is easy to counter provided you know what it has.
Overheat - I was one of the few people who were against Overheat. Sure, it hits Lucario and Metagross harder than anything else, but it also stops the likes of Scizor, Forretress, Roserade, Magnezone, Bronzong, Celebi, Heracross, Breloom, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Skarmory, Ninjask, and Weavile. That's almost 1/3 of OU.
However, depsite Low Kick, Superpower and Earthquake all in my movepool, none of them reliably OHKO the main targets, while the main targets in question each had a method of OHKOing Krilowatt. Considering Metagross and Lucario are two of the biggest threats in the game, that's bad.
Ice Beam - Deck Knight makes a brilliant point about Ice Beam. Dropping it means people have to rely on other options, some of which may be better for a specific threat, some of which won't. And that versatility is indeed what Krilowatt wants, but the general usefulness of Ice Beam isn't something to be overshadowed. Also, as Reachzero said, the fact that Ice Beam turns Krilowatt into predictable sushi means its weakness is easier to exploit. And I think that's more important to the idea of Utility Counter.
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Code:
-- Leer
-- Camouflage
-- Scratch
06 Bubble
11 Thunder Wave
15 Thundershock
19 BubbleBeam
24 Aqua Ring
30 Spark
36 Heart Swap
41 Imprison
45 Discharge
50 Muddy Water
55 Perish Song
61 Thunder
One word I revolved around when building this section: In-Game.
Since I had Hydro Cannon as a laugh in the Tutor moves, I tried to think about what if I was using Krilowatt as the starter. Would it a good Pokemon to use? I tried to have more offensive STAB options primarily, while taking anything support-based left over from the "Allowed Moves" list that wasn't Tutor or Egg move.
It's a shrimp, and despite being the final evolution, it isn't very fearsome. I mean, come on, if you put the likes of Torterra, Feraligatr or Charizard next to it, fear wouldn't run down your spine would it? And that's where the fact that it can actually kill all three of the above becomes hilarious.
Perish Song - Perish Trapping is a fun tactic. Whirlpool is the HG/S HM, although if you are running PerishTrap, you're either planning on sacrificing Krilowatt anyway, or they can predict your switching as well. Risky, but fun little aside.
Heart Swap - Superpower, Draco Meteor, Overheat. Heart Swap combined with these seems like a slightly broken combination, but again, if you are dropping a 4th damaging coverage move for Heart Swap, in the end, something is going to wall you. If you're sans Superpower, then Blissey and Snorlax don't care. If it's without Draco Meteor, some Dragons (notably physical Kingdra) won't care. If you lack Overheat, then it's possible that Scizor, Celebi or perhaps even Heracross won't care.
Imprison - Countering something isn't always "OHKO it into oblivion!1?eleven!!" Sometimes, countering something could be forcing it out. This can be done in two ways. Either; 1. threaten it to the point where staying in becomes illogical; or 2. reduce its effectiveness. Imprison aims to do this via method 2. Running Imprison / Waterfall / Outrage / Earthquake, and you've incapacitated (and therefore countered) most Dragon Dancers in OU. The possibilities are endless, and it lets Krilowatt really achieve some versatility while still being easy to stop - Imprison something with no similar moves and you've wasted a moveslot and given them the chance to switch into something that can threaten Krilowatt.
Camouflage - Aragornbird's supporting material shows Krilowatt changing colours depending on the situation or depending on what move it is using, so this fits in nicely. It also is handy for turning Krilowatt into a Normal-type so there is no Earthquake weakness to worry about!
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Summary
The only move that was "Allowed" that didn't appear on my movepool is Vacuum Wave. There are two reasons for this. 1 - I see no need for it. The only things that outspeed us are Infernape, Gengar, Azelf, Latias, Starmie, Weavile, Aerodactyl, Jolteon and Ninjask. 6 of these are resistant (1 immune) to Vacuum Wave. One is hit x4 effectively. Only TWO resist Sucker Punch which appears. As well as that, there was no room. I already have a lot of Tutor Moves. The Level-Up pool is no place for Vacuum Wave. The Egg Move list is nearly full. It wasn't worth the hassle, and it offers you very little, since Weavile hardly threatens you anyway.
I had planned my movepool out ever since the Attacking Moves Discussion ended. It has remained largely unchanged bar one or two flavour additions, and I have spent a long time refining it, going over every single competitive move in detail thinking "what does thing bring, what do I lose?" over and over, making sure everything had a reason to be there. The differences in most movepools are what they lack. In my case, that's next to nothing, and so that itself is a distinction. Of course, my movepool, being so overloaded promotes variation and such, but in that variation is your downfall - too much causes you to lose track and thus fails, not enough causes you to be outpredicted and beaten. It's a very comfortable compromise, with 4-Moveslot-Syndrome constantly pestering you.
I think that my movepool is slightly more interesting due to the fact that I've included everything bar one move (Vacuum Wave), the very different egg-move combinations, so even if it is generic for having everything, the way everything comes together is slightly different. I also tried to give the movepool in general a more 'human' feel.
-Thank you for reading-
Current Number of Moves (not counting doubles): 100 Threat List
Final Submission Changes
- Removed two moves from the TM list (Snatch + Safeguard)
- Added two flavour-based tutor moves (Fury Cutter + Headbutt)
- Modified a move in the level-up list (Slash -> Discharge)
- Added a move in level-up list, re-arranged the levelling.
Incidentally, why is it that CAP10 has to run Leftovers on all of its movesets? What's wrong with one of the plates, Expert Belt, Life Orb or even a choice item? Choice Specs Dragon Pulse is only slightly less powerful than unboosted Draco Meteor (and Life Orb Dragon Pulse is more powerful after two hits than Draco Meteor), and it means that the CAP10 user has to put effort into customising their CAP10 set, making their set more specialist, and specialised sets to counter certain pokemon are what this concept is about.
On the other hand, how much do we care about the concept now?
Which is exactly why I gave CAP10 no access to some of the more powerful moves. If CAP10 wants to counter bulkier threats, it'll have to use a boosting item, and forgo Leftovers, or Paralysis Immunity viva Toxic Orb. Countering isn't nessacerily OHKO'ing something. If you take little damage, and 2HKO, that's fine too.
Basically restricting the high-power moves forces CAP10 to have greater choice over what it does. If you're countering Infernape, Leftovers would do. If you're fighting, say, Latias with a physical set, you're probobly going to end up opting for a Life Orb or something.
This is one of the main reasons I'm against DM and Outrage. These moves hit anything that's not a steel-type hard, item, or no item. They are 'spammable' and would be mindlessly slapped on any set to catch switch-ins.
However, I am against giving Krillowatt EITHER of the high-power Dragon-type attacks. Otherwise, every Krill set will carry DM, just so it can be spammed on the inevitable switch, or it'll be used as an Outrage cleaner. Sets like Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Draco Meteor WILL be standard. Besides, those two moves are controvertial anyway, and there's o way that Krillowatt can get Draco Meteor, due to... not being a Dragon.
Firstly, I doubt Krill would even use Outrage. Let's look at all the Pokemon that get unSTAB Outrage. How many of them use it? None. You might say it's because there's so many Steels in OU, but even in UU, only Altaria ever runs Outrage. I think the evidence is clear that Outrage is only good on Dragon-types. Anything not Dragon-type has much better things to do than to be locked into an unSTAB move that is resisted by most common physical walls.
Draco Meteor is a more interesting case. Nothing uses unSTAB Draco Meteor, but that's because nothing gets unSTAB Draco Meteor, which complicates matters. So let's look at similar moves (stats taken from Feb. OU)
Overheat -- 7% of Heatran, 19% of Infernape, 38% of Rotom-A, 14% of Arcanine
Leaf Storm -- 32% of Celebi, 74% of Roserade, 10% of Rotom-A
Psycho Boost -- Not used
So, the only Pokemon that uses unSTAB moves of this type is Rotom-A, whose only other option is Hidden Power. I think this is ample evidence that an unSTAB Overheat-type move is only used when no other options are available.
Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I won't bother to include Draco Meteor. It really screwed up my Egg Groups, and it doesn't seem all that useful.
EDIT: yeah, decided against Draco Meteor. This let me switch egg groups to Water 3/Fairy, so the egg moves changed a bit. Screech was taken out and replaced with Perish Song. Superpower is now an egg move, so it is illegal with Heart Swap.
Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I won't bother to include Draco Meteor. It really screwed up my Egg Groups, and it doesn't seem all that useful.
EDIT: yeah, decided against Draco Meteor. This let me switch egg groups to Water 3/Fairy, so the egg moves changed a bit. Screech was taken out and replaced with Perish Song. Superpower is now an egg move, so it is illegal with Heart Swap.
No Heart Swap with Overheat or Superpower? =0 That's rough.... seeing as they were some of the primary reasons to use it. Still, I guess it's fair enough, so's it's more centralizing toward CM sweepers and stuff. Also, I totally agree with you about Draco Meteor; I'm glad someone was able to explain it in a more practical manner than I did. =__='
I'm liking the developments of your set and now that you mention it, Water 3 / Fairy really seems to be the most fitting egg group combo to me. Maybe you'll consider allowing Outrage just so Kril can beat Kingdra more reliably, and I already mentioned the neat possibility of an Outrage-Imprison combo. Since you're already giving it Imprison, I think that would be really cool to see... if you do that and maybe find a way for it to have Counter and Mirror Coat, I think I'd for sure vote for yours.
In turn, making CAP10 useful against practically every offensive threat at once, which is the exact opposite of the concept. Or does the concept not matter now?
EDIT: Heart Swap + Overheat would screw up special sweepers and Heart Swap + Superpower would screw up physical sweepers and tanks.
In turn, making CAP10 useful against practically every offensive threat at once, which is the exact opposite of the concept. Or does the concept not matter now?
I highly doubt that Outrage would be overpowered or "spammable" on Krilowatt. Think about it: no STAB, not-so-high offensive stats, resisted by an extremely common type and it locks the user into the move. Doesn't sound so appealing to me. I'm less sure about DM because it doesn't lock the user in, which is the most important issue IMO, but it does otherwise have the same problems.
DM seems "easily spammed" because it's almostexclusively given to pokemon with both high offensive stats and STAB on the move. Notice, as someone already pointed out, that plenty of non-Dragons learn Outrage and don't use it.
From a competitive viewpoint, I just don't see how Outrage can possibly be controversial.
The biggest point here is STAB. Draco Meteor is an excellent option on Pokemon like Latias and Salamence because they get STAB on it that pushes its base power from 140 to a ridiculous 210 with only one type in the game resisting it. When you stick Draco Meteor on an Electric / Water Pokemon that knows Surf and Thunderbolt, though, you really need to step back and think about just how "deadly" it is.
Code:
[B]vs. Some Neutral Type[/B]
Draco Meteor
Base Power: 140 x 1.0 (No STAB) x 1.0 (Neutral Hit) = 140
Surf / Thunderbolt
Base Power: 95 x 1.5 (STAB) x 1.0 (Neutral Hit) = 142.5
[B]vs. Dragons[/B]
Draco Meteor
Base Power: 140 x 1.0 (No STAB) x 2.0 (SE Hit) = 280
Surf / Thunderbolt
Base Power: 95 x 1.5 (STAB) x 0.5 (Resisted Hit) = 71.25
Suddenly, when you factor in the -2 SpA drop from Draco Meteor and the 90% accuracy, it isn't so attractive an attacking option anymore in neutral hits. The only time Draco Meteor is viable on Krilowatt is when it is super effective. That is the only time you'd ever use it, when you want to nail things like Latias and Kingdra who are not 4x weak to Ice. In all other cases, a neutral Surf or Thunderbolt is dealing more damage with fewer drawbacks than Draco Meteor.
There is no competitive "overpoweredness" associated with Draco Meteor because in most cases, it's hitting with less power and far more consequences than Surf or Thunderbolt. So please, stop saying that Draco Meteor is some spammable or deadly weapon that will make Krilowatt broken if it gets it, because you are wrong.
