CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[jas61292]

Time to talk types! Welcome to the CAP 18 Typing discussion. As you guys may know, the Typing Leader for this project is none other than yours truly. I will be providing some discussion points in the following post, so if you guys can respond to those, and to the responses and points brought up by each other, we can hopefully have a great Typing Discussion.

To start, let's review our concept:

Concept: Major Third

General Description: A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.

Justification: Cores have always been an integral part of the metagame, whether you're running Talonflame/Staraptor to brute force everything, Slowbro/Amoonguss/Heatran for Regenerator-Leftovers stalling, or a whole team of Dragons + Magnezone. We've previously explored what it takes to make a successful partnership in CAP11 (Voodoom), but the metagame (and the simulator!) has changed dramatically since Voodoom's creation. I would also like to up the ante a little bit: Instead of just one, can we now take TWO Pokemon and find their missing piece? Whether we opt to build on an established two-Pokemon partnership or choose two previously unrelated Pokemon and put them together, I think that we can certainly find a Voodoom for a more offensive time.

Questions to Be Answered:

• How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
• Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
• What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
• How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
• Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
• Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
• Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?

In this thread, you're allowed to discuss both mono and dual types. Remember though, this is about typing alone, and talking about any other element of the Pokemon is not allowed. Make sure you pay close attention to the Typing Leader's words, as he is the one you have to convince that a type is worth slating. Now, lets make this a good discussion!

----

Before we get started, I want to give a brief warning regarding the Fairy typing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Fairy as a type, however, the fact that it is a new type has absolutely no value whatsoever when it comes to this project. Posts that suggest a Fairy typing simply because it is new will be moderated. Similarly, any posts against a Fairy typing using its newness as a reason will also be moderated. This discussion is about the value of typings in a competitive sense only.

 

[jas61292]

So, to start off this typing thread, I want to take a look back to what our TL DetroitLolcat said at the end of Concept Assessment 2. There he listed 4 goals that we are going to try and accomplish with the Pokemon we are making for this project:

we're going to design a Pokemon that:

1. Can switch into Pokemon such as Aegislash that pose significant threats to both Lucario and Latias.
2. Can pose immediate offensive pressure against Pokemon that Lucario and Latias do not provide offensive pressure against.
3. Takes into consideration the Pokemon that Lucario can defeat that other, similar sweepers cannot defeat.
4. Serves as more than just a pivot against Pokemon that trouble the other members of this core.

To start off this typing discussion, I want to mostly focus on the first two of these points. While the threats discussion is still to come, and we have not yet actually decided which Pokemon we want to defeat, and which we want to lose to, it is important to start looking at which Pokemon might fit into these roles, so that when we do make those decisions, we won't have to compensate later for a poor typing choice.

So, to get things rolling here, I want to pose a couple questions here for you guys to respond to:

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias?
Which Pokemon do Lucario and Latias not provide offensive Pressure against?

Based on the answers to the above two questions, which is more important when choosing a typing:
Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?

I'd like to have people try and answer these few questions first, before suggesting any individual type combinations. Once we have a consensus on what exactly we want to do with out typing, as opposed to later stages of the project, then we can really get into a discussion of what typing does that job best. But until then, I think it is better to hold off on the specifics, as otherwise we will have people proposing typings for vastly different reasons.

That's all from me for now. Lets get this discussion started!

 

[MudcrabDL]

So, in the last topic, people were concerned with the Fairy type putting pressure on the core, and with good reason: Threats like Mega Mawile and Togekiss can do serious damage to both Latias and Lucario, particularly if Lucario isn't running a steel move (which he hasnt since M-Luc got banned.) In addition, Dragons can put serious pressure on both of them, as can pokemon that run Fighting and Dark moves, for Lucario and Latias respectively.

I'm going to throw out the typing Fire/Fairy. This isn't flawless by any means, with Stone Edge, Sludge Bomb, Hydro Pump and Earthquake putting the hurt on it, but thankfully, Lucario has that awesome 4x resistance to Rock, an immunity to poison, and Latias has Levitate and a dragon typing, covering Ground and Water. The Fire type can put the pressure on Aegislash, Scizor and Mega Mawile, three worrisome threats to the core, while the Fairy STAB can hurt things like T-tar, Conkeldurr, Dragonite... As a fire type, Will o Wisp can also help to artificially bulk it up a bit more, and it can switch in on opposing Wisps with impunity.

Now, this typing isn't perfect, but it provides a nice middle ground between defensive prowess and offensive pressure.

EDIT: Sorry, I just saw the 'no specifics' part of the second post. I've rattled off a few examples of threats to the core in my rationale, but in a more general sense, Luc/Lati have trouble with...

A: Aegislash. More generally, Pokemon running Dark/Ghost + Fighting/Fairy coverage moves.
B: Fairy and Dragon types, worst offenders being MegaMawile, Zard X.
C: Any attacker Lucario can't sweep reasonably, but Lati can't wall. Scizor is one of the main offenders.

The things that this combo don't really pressure offensively? Mega-Mawile. Unless Luca runs earthquake, good luck getting anything under a 4hko.

Now I'm thinking about it, what defines "unable to offensively pressure"? For this core, which is very much focused on Lucario coming in once and leaving his mark, presumably it means "can't kill them before they kill you". For Lucario, that definition basically means anything faster than him with a Ground, Fire or Fighting move that can take a +2 ES, or anything slower that can take a CC. Latias functions differently, punching holes over the course of the battle rather than in one sitting. She can't pressure the blobs or most fairies, as they're all able to take her coverage moves, kind of obligating her to run Psyshock.

 

[FMD]

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias? This team faces heavy pressure from Aegislash, Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir, Clefable and Azumarill. Aegislash resists the STABs of both Pokemon while also commonly carrying a move that is super effective against each. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir both have very spammable Flying type attacks that are unresisted by the two while also having a powerful STAB (Fire against Lucario, Bug against Latias) that affects one of the two of the core. Clefable and Azumarill both resist Close Combat, are immune to Draco Meteor and are super effective against Latias's Dragon typing. I can also see Weakness Policy Dragonite being a major threat.

Which Pokemon do Lucario and Latias not provide offensive Pressure against? Again, Clefable and Aegislash are immediately an issue. There is also very little here to help break through a bulky Ground type, aside from Latias sometimes carrying Surf or Ice Beam. That's... really all there is basically.

Based on the answers to the above two questions, which is more important when choosing a typing: Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group? I feel like the best approach would be a compromise between these: resisting a good portion of the first group while putting pressure on much of the second group. If we focus too heavily on one or the other, then we will still have quite a problem. That being said, I believe a Flying resist is VERY important to this core as is something to combat Fairy type on both offense and defense.

 

[Bughouse]

Really, Aegislash is the single biggest threat. There are plenty of other consideration though, such as Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill (or sand boosted speed, either way), Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X (not being used very much these days), Physical/Mixed Thundurus with Knock Off, Latios and Gengar who thankfully at least only speed tie with Latias. Plenty of other things can be threatening just by outspeeding and having a threatening offensive presence like Greninja or Mega Aerodactyl (also not used much, but thankfully not too much outspeeds Latias).

Fairy types too can be quite threatening if Lucario hasn't already gotten the +2, and even then Clefable won't mind unless Lucario carries the inaccurate Iron Tail, which is hardly optimal. The core also may struggle against a bulky Ground like Hippowdon.

Now, Lucario can run Earthquake to try to muscle through Aegislash, but it's not particularly effective in my opinion when we'd at least like to retain the option to run Ice Punch or Iron Tail. However, if we lack Earthquake, the mere presence of Aegislash on the opposing team removes all pressure Lucario + Latias would like to exert.

Therefore, a Pokemon that can handle switching into Aegislash, specifically a Shadow Ball, somewhat reliably seems best to me. Resistance-wise, this would imply a Dark or Normal type. But what matters above all is at least not being weak. Resistance isn't necessarily needed as long as bulk is decent, which I believe we intend it to be.

 

[paintseagull]

I just deleted a bunch of things. Pay attention to jas's questions for now. The typing thread is not a race. If you're not the first one to suggest your typing it doesn't matter.

 

[swampmist1142]

I would personally suggest trying to steer clear of a ground weakness because ground i carried by a few of the threats making it innefective, including Charizard Y (who is apparently being ignored at the mo') and similar pokes.

 

[Stratos]

I want to lay one thing out now: simply forcing out aegislash is a victory for the aegislash. We need something that makes using Pursuit the absolute stupidest fucking idea you've ever had because nothing short will stop our core from being dismantled when it's pursuit weak. One does not simply run a pursuit weak core. That said, being able to set up on aegi mostly just makes you a very good ou pokemon. If we want to incentivize the use of lucario, we're going to have to be clever with how we interplay this core, since luke can't switch in well. Perhaps a Nukémon that cleans out lucario's counters but is incapable of sweeping. Lucario's in a special spot as a sweeper because it is easyish to wall and stop but hard to revenge, thanks to espeed. We should take advantage of this.

Honestly i'm already viewing bulky ground support (hippo, gliscor, landorus-t) as mandatory for this core because of their ability to check flyspam, pursuit users, and opponents' bulky grounds and Mold Breaker Excadrills. This is a lot of what we need, and we could take the cap in the direction of tailor-making our own bulky ground, as srk is suggesting. Personally, i'd rather lean more offensively and let one of the pre-existing grounds fill that role. For one, a bulky mon can not sufficiently, imo, threaten aegis to dissuade pursuit. Of course, you could argue that you could run a bulky cap alongside Volcarona or Rotom-H and achieve a similar effect. Really, there's two divergent ways for this cap to go:

1) bulky Pokemon that can serve as a pivot, stop flyspam, wall aegislash and scarf Exca, stalemate or better with opponent bulky ground types.
2) threatening offensive Pokemon that STRONGLY discourages Pursuit and opens holes for lucario to sweep or threatens to sweep itself.

Whichever we choose will be paired with an existing pokemon of the opposite type almost certainly, but it's basically a matter of preference as to which we choose, i think. I'd rather do the latter, personally

Last note: if you think i'm being too restrictive with team options, then im sorry but welcome to gen six. Valentine wrote this brilliant RMT breaking down the composition of the Zard-Y team, and it got as specific as "Zard-Y, Defog User, Pursuit User, Fast Steel-Resistant Fighting Type, Bulky Ground, Fast Electric Type." If we wanted more freedom, we shouldn't have chosen this concept, and definitely not have chosen lucario :p

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Threats to the Core:
As many people have stated already, Aegislash is a massive threat to both Latias and Lucario; not only does it resist both STABs of both Pokemon, but it also easily destroys Latias with its Ghost STAB of choice, and can take care of Lucario with Sacred Sword. Aegislash isn't the only Steel-type that threatens this core. A physically defensive Scizor can survive a Close Combat from an unboosted Lucario and retaliate with Superpower, and Mawile will activate Intimidate once it switches into Lucario, assuming this is done before it Mega Evolves. Of course, it would be suicide to expect Latias to combat either of them. Speaking of Mawile, Fairy-types also prove to be a massive roadblock that Latias just can't deal with, and Unaware Clefable is among the worst offenders. In order to deal with that, Lucario has to run Iron Tail, whose accuracy is barely higher than the coveted Focus Miss, and is ill-advised as a result. Finally, even though Lucario knows Ice Punch and Latias has Levitate to fall back on, bulky Ground-types can still be a problem to the core, especially if they happen to know moves that can hit Latias super effectively, like Mega-Garchomp's Outrage and Donphan's and Mamoswine's Ice Shards.

So basically it boils down to three main types worth concern: Fairy, Ground and Steel

Appliers of Offensive Pressure:
On top of the Pokemon mentioned above, it should be noted that Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, Talonflame and Conkeldurr can easily break the two-mon team that is Lucario and Latias, just by applying some offensive pressure, and in some cases, threaten to sweep. Charizard in particular can destroy the two with just its own STABs, and there's no softening its DD-boosted blows as it's immune to Will-o-Wisp. Talonflame shares this immunity and Conkeldurr can benefit from being burned if it runs Guts. The latter commonly runs Assault Vest to handle Latias' attacks and Knock Off to do considerable damage to it, while the former can spam priority Brave Birds, which are unresisted by the duo and hit hard as a result. While it's true that Latias has Recover, Brave Bird after Brave Bird is going to take its toll, especially if Talonflame has managed to secure some Bulk Up boosts. Mega Pinsir can also assault the Lucario and Latias duo with powerful Normal-type turned Flying-type attacks like Return and Quick Attack, and also runs EQ. Finally, a full-health Dragonite can easily tank anything the duo can throw at it thanks to Multiscale, which is especially problematic if it just so happens to be equipped with a Weakness Policy.

These are just the Pokemon that came off the top of my head, and I suspect that others have mentioned them as threats as well... :/

 

[alexwolf]

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias?

The biggest threats to those two Pokemon are by far Aegislash, Sand Rush and Choice Scarf Excadrill, Talonflame, and Fairy-types, especially Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Mawile. Those Pokemon can beat both Latias and Lucario 1 on 1 with just one move. Furthermore, Lucario can't even beat those Fairy-types with Iron Tail on 1 v 1 scenarios, as Mega Gardevoir is faster, while Azumarill and Mega Mawile aren't OHKOed and OHKO back.

Which Pokemon do Lucario and Latias not provide offensive Pressure against?

The most important Pokemon that both Lucario and Zapdos can't get past are Zapdos, Aegislash, and Hippowdon, with Fairy-types included if Lucario doesn't carry Iron Tail.

Based on the answers to the above two questions, which is more important when choosing a typing:

Both are equally impoortant, and fortunately, the answer to both questions is similar for the most part, with Aegislash and Fairy-types being the biggest concerns for our core, and Ground-types, Talonflame, and Zapdos being big problems as well.

Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?

Given that we are aiming to create an offensive core, offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group are more important, but being able to check most of the Pokemon that can dismantle the rest of the core is very important as well. Also, because going with a set up sweeper would be one of our best options, it's not completely necessary to have STABs that put immediate pressure on the latter group, as long as the CAP will be able to threaten them after setting up on them, which won't be hard if they can't do much to the CAP.

 

[Birkal]

ಠ__ಠ

Hello, this is Birkal the CAP Moderator speaking. Listen up if you don't want to be infracted. jas61292 is out Typing Leader for CAP 18, meaning that he's the one setting the stage for this discussion. The second post in this thread (his) asks a lot of great questions, and few of the replies to this thread have actually addressed them. I've gone through and deleted the majority of the content written in this thread. Note that jas61292 wants some questions answered before we move into discussing specific types. There is a difference between weighing the pros and cons on immunities / resistances / weaknesses based on typing and outright proposing a typing for CAP 18. Let me reiterate the question we should ultimately be addressing right now:

Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?

There will be plenty of time to suggest individual typings in the near future. But for now, our Typing Leader has posed this question (along with a few others). Posts that fail to attempt a conversation based off of his post will be deleted and likely infracted. Thank you for your time; message me if you have any further questions.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias?
Basically, Aegislash and bulky Fairy-types. Talonflame is a slight issue, but like most other relatively frail offensive pokemon, Lucario has no trouble sweeping through it once he has a chance to set up. Excadrill is dangerous, but unlike the other threats to the core, it is incredibly easy to handle with external teambuilding given that our core isn't necessarily weak to it, just non-resistant.

Which Pokemon do Lucario and Latias not provide offensive Pressure against?
Again, Aegislash and bulky Fairies, with the addition of bulky Ground-types and Zapdos.

Based on the answers to the above two questions, which is more important when choosing a typing:
Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?
I think that offensive STABs are much more important in this case than defensive typing. Neither core member has any hope of breaking Hippowdon or Zapdos, and Lucario would have to rely on the inaccurate Iron Tail to hit fairies for any significant damage. If the CAP could do these things, it would be wonderful for the core. Defensively, I think the most important thing is that the CAP not be weak to Aegislash and Excadrill - it doesn't need to resist Ground and Dark, but it shouldn't ever give them a chance to come in and start spamming Shadow Ball / EQ for free.

I'm going to take a different approach to handling Aegislash. Shadow Ball is basically impossible to switch into, which makes it very hard to handle Aegislash defensively. However, we have options for handling it offensively already: Lucario and Latias are both capable of damaging Aegislash. Offensive LO Latias can 2HKO it with Shadow Ball, and Lucario can 2HKO it out with EQ (or OHKO after an SD). I think we should rely on these options to help handle Aegislash, as it is the hardest threat to make the CAP switch in to.

I'm going to focus on EQ from Lucario here, as Shadow Ball is very hard to fit on to Latias. Basically, I think we can afford to run EQ on Lucario over Ice Punch. No matter what we do, it seems likely that the CAP will be designed to take out Hippowdon, and it would be very easy to extend that to beating Landorus-T and Gliscor as well. This would give Lucario the freedom to run EQ, severely cutting Aegislash's effectiveness against the core. It would still be a significant offensive threat, especially against Latias, but as the main goal of the core is to give Lucario the chance to sweep, I think this is the best way to accomplish that.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias?

As several others have already mentioned, Aegislash is the largest single threat because it can easily deal with Latias with Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak/Pursuit and threaten Lucario with Sacred Sword. Other threats to the core include Fairy types, particularly Mega Mawile, Mega Gardevoir, and Azumarill, who can hit both Latias and Lucario hard with Play Rough or Pixilate Hyper Voice.

Which Pokemon do Lucario and Latias not provide offensive Pressure against?

Anything that can take a Close Combat from Lucario and a Draco Meteor from Latias can be an issue. AV Conkeldurr again comes to mind in this regard; neither Lucario nor Latias can OHKO it with any move, while Conkeldurr can threaten both with Knock Off and/or Mach Punch. Lucario without Ice Punch can do virtually nothing against Zapdos and bulky Ground types (e.g. Gliscor, Landorus-T) without risking being KO'd by Heat Wave or Earthquake, respectively. Without Earthquake, Aegislash walls Lucario all day long.

Based on the answers to the above two questions, which is more important when choosing a typing:
Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?

Considering the offensive nature of both Lucario and Latias in this core, I'd say it's necessary for CAP 18 to provide offensive pressure with its STAB(s). While I don't believe it's strictly necessary for CAP 18 to hit all of the threats to the core for super effective damage, it needs to be able to make the opponent think twice about switching in a threat for risk of losing it. Appropriate coverage moves would be needed so that CAP 18, whatever typing it ultimately has, can threaten many Pokemon without being able to cover everything all at once.

At the same time, it needs to be able to deal with the threats that Lucario and Latias can't handle, so defensive considerations are also quite important. While CAP 18 should force out most of the Pokémon it's meant to check through offensive pressure, allowing opponents to spam Earthquake/Shadow Ball/Flying attacks is inadvisable. While there is no one typing that would resist all of those attacks, I believe there is a way for CAP 18 to be able to stand against those attacks without compromising its offensive presence or making it too susceptible to a threat to the entire core.

 

[Salt]

Putting my two cents in. If Aegislash is the biggest threat we're focusing on, we can't just focus on taking Ghost-type moves. Sure, it's Aegi's most common STAB, but most Aegislash run Sacred Sword along with it. Bringing a type weak to Fighting, like Normal or Dark, isn't the best idea since it won't be able to handle Aegislash effectively unless we give it an insane amount of physical bulk along with reliable recovery. I'm also wary of giving it a Fairy typing, which seems to be popular. Aegislash could be running a Steel-type move. It's not that common, but the potential is there. If we make this CAP able to just take Shadow Balls and Sacred Swords with a Fairy typing, then Aegi could just run a Steel move and continue to be a problem for the core. Of course, we could neutralize the Steel weakness with a type that resists Steel, (Water, Fire, Electric, Steel) but 3 of those 4 types leave us open to Excadrill, another proposed threat to this core. Giving the CAP a Fairy typing also does little against opposing Fairies, especially Mawile.

TLDR: Be wary of typings that are weak to Fighting (Dark, Normal) as most Aegislash run Sacred Sword, or using Fairy typing as Aegislash has a Steel STAB to hit it with. Most secondary types that neutralize that weakness open us up to Ground-types, particularly Excadrill. Fairy CAP also does little against opposing Fairies, leaving us weaker to Mawile especially.

 

[Bramblestein]

Being able to resist all of Aegislash's hits seems nearly impossible without opening CAP up to other potential threats. This can be made up for with considerable bulk on one end of the spectrum and an offensive stab to hit Aegislash hard. So basically, instead of worrying about trying to just shrug off Aegis' damage, it seems more beneficial if CAP has a way to make him wary of switching in in the first place and we should focus more on picking the other threats we want to be able to resist: i.e. fairies, talonflame, and dragons. Although it could be possible to find a typing that can accomplish both things.

 

[M-WHALE]

Hey, just here to throw my input in on the typing of our CAP here:

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias, and which Pokemon do they not provide an offensive presence for?
Aegislash. Aegislash. Aegislash, Aegislash, Aegislash! This guy is obviously a massive threat to our core, with a shadow ball, shadow sneak, and shadow claw that send Latias running. Luke can't switch into any of those moves, and on top of that, is weak to sacred sword. Aegis needs to be pretty much full on countered by this guy, or at least checked really well. Trouble is, it is almost completely impossible to counter every Aegislash set there is, so we might have to settle for a great check instead of 100% counter. other threats include prominent fairies, such as Azuzu, Togekiss, Mega Mawile, Sylveon, and Clefable. Also, Sableye is capable of will-o-wisping in Luke's face as it is immune to Espeed. Klefki has a resist and can do the same with thunder wave,but Thundurus is normally used over the keys, and Luke can beat Thundurus at plus 2 with espeed. Dragonite can beat both of them one on one thanks to Multiscale, and Gengar also murders Latias (speed tie though) and heavily damages Luke, potentially killing with prior damage as it can avoid the Espeed. Overall, the two types that ruin our current, incomplete core are Fairies and Ghosts. Ghosts are probably especially important for CAP 18 to hit and tank because Luke cannot sweep them with Espeed, while unaware Clefable is the main fairy CAP 18 needs to be able to hit hard.

which is more important when choosing a typing:
Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?

I'm going to say that this CAP might be forced to use it's offensive presence due to the fact that the only defensive typing i can dream up that can wall aegis is normal/ghost which makes our core EXTREMELY susceptible to pursuit trapping. Having the STAB on maybe steel or poison to break through clefable is nice as well, as well as being able to eliminate Sableye (fairy?) and possibly revenge kill the troublesome Gengar, with, say, a dark type.

Well, that's my input. Any criticism (I'm sure there were at least one or two things I missed) is appreciated!

 

[FMD]

Walling Aegislash is not possible with typing alone, this is a fact. As far as the defensive typing for the CAP in general, it should be made such that it will resist as much of the offensive threats to the core as it can. The best way to diminish the presence of Aegislash is with offensive pressure. I'm not suggesting that the CAP has to have STAB super effective moves against Aegislash; it could just as easily carry non-STAB moves to deal with Aegislash, but that's to be decided at a later date.

 

[MudcrabDL]

Well, let's look at what can deal with Aegislash well in the metagame, as it seems a lot of the discussion revolves around that at the moment. As far as defensive threats go to Aegislash, probably the biggest of them all is Mandibuzz. She can take literally anything that's thrown at her, taking around 40% from Flash Cannon, and maybe 70% if Aegislash has a death wish and runs Head Smash. Now, the reason she is a defensive threat is MOSTLY due to her typing being seemingly specifically geared towards countering the Slash. A Dark type to resist Ghost, and a Flying type to eliminate the Fighting weakness. That said, even if Ghost hit her neutrally, she'd still be able to take a Shadow Ball and OHKO back with Foul Play, due to her superb, rather balanced mixed bulk. BUT, this bulk comes at a price; Mandibuzz doesn't have attacking stats worth mentioning, being essentially obligated to run a mono-attacking support set in Foul Play/Knock Off/Roost/Defog-Taunt-Toxic. She does well for her team, but her ability to offensively pressure things comes from their own attack stat, not hers. Now, as far as threats that deal with Aegis OFFENSIVELY, the list is much longer, so I don't think I can go into it too deep. It essentially works the same way, though; moves that won't hit King's Shield directly, that put pressure on Aegis to take a hit which he MIGHT not survive, or switch out. This can be...

A: Earthquake (Switch to a Flying type)
B: Fire Blast (Switch to Heatran)
C: Sucker Punch (Switch to, well, anything really)

The more common way of actually dealing with Aegislash, as far as I've seen, is strong Fighting types running both fighting and dark coverage. They switch in on something they can threaten with their STAB, and then Knock Off on the inevitable switch; not only does it have utility no matter what comes in, but if you're trying to get a free switch in for Aegislash...well, you don't.

As far as I can see, the best way to deal with Aegislash is either have a Mandibuzz, or hit it when it's switching in. Or, actually, now I think about it, hit it when it's switching OUT with Pursuit. To have the defensive prowess to take a hit on either side of the defensive spectrum off 150 attacking stats, you need to sacrifice a whole load of stats to your defenses which could be used for attacking, AND it doesn't hurt to have a solid defensive typing too. Dealing with Aegislash offensively involves a bit more solid prediction, but it keeps the pressure up, which this team seems to be all about. To actually OHKO the Shield Form though, you'd need all the help you can get. You'd need to connect with a solid, super effective STAB move; this could be a Fire Blast or Overheat, it could be an Earthquake, a Knock Off, hell, it could even be a Close Combat coming off a Scrappy Fighting type. Usually, Aegislash can just King's Shield, so it's quite worthwhile to have something to do in the down turn; Will-o-Wisp/Thunder Wave go through the shield, and of course, self-targetting moves are always possible.

EDIT: Also, aside from Aegislash, I noticed a lot of people are worried about A: Bulky Grounds, and B: Fairies. I actually find that fascinating, as it turns out, Fairy/Ground coverage is one of the greatest offensive pairings this generation: everything that resists Fairy is damaged at least neutrally by Ground, unless the flying type/levitate is brought into the equation. It's not widely available on the one Mon, with the only ones I can think of off the top of my head being Granbull and Donphan. An ability to run Earthquake/Earth Power, Play Rough/Moonblast and Stone Edge/Power Gem on members of a core covers a hell of a lot of bases in this metagame, threatening everything except Skarmory and Gliscor, and some Rotoms super effectively, AFAIK.

 

[Cretacerus]

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias?

• Ghost (Aegislash, Gengar): They can switch in fairly easily with their useful immunities and resistances, and proceed to greatly threaten both Lucario and Latias with their STAB Ghost attacks. The combination of priority/higher speed and immunity to ExtremeSpeed lets them revenge kill a weakened Lucario regardless of how many boosts he has.
• Flying: (Mega-Pinsir, Talonflame): They can throw around their strong physical Flying STABs, which are backed up by priority and unresisted by Lucario and Latias. Both of them will easily survive an unboosted ExtremeSpeed and can OHKO Lucario in return.
• Fighting+Dark/Bug (Conkeldurr, Scizor): They can survive any attack from unboosted Lucario and Latias, and take out or at least heavily cripple either of them with the correct move. Full Health Conkeldurr can also stop a Lucario sweep with his Mach Punch, unless Lucario is at +4 and has entry hazards up.
  
• Fairy (Azumarill, Mega-Mawile, Mega-Gardevoir, Togekiss): Most of these Pokemon possess excellent offensive capabilities, and many of their STAB Fairy attacks can actually outright OHKO both Lucario and Latias. Also, their resistance to Fighting and immunity to Dragon, along with decent bulk, alows them to switch in rather easily, only really fearing the rare Iron Tail from Lucario.
  
• Dragon (Mega-Charizard-X, Dragonite, Garchomp): With Latias being weak to Dragon, and Lucario often being 2HKOed regardless of his resistance, there is nothing to take those powerful attacks. A single speed boost, either through Choice Scarf or Dragon Dance, is all what these Dragon types need, in order to just run through both of them.

Which Pokemon do Lucario and Latias not provide offensive Pressure against?

• Flying (Zapdos, Landorus-T, Gyarados, Togekiss): The Flying type allows these Pokemon to comfortably take a Close Combat and dodge Earthquake from Lucario, forcing him to run Ice Punch if he wants to do any significant damage. They can in return threaten him with a super effective coverage move. Also, their good defenses let them take most of Latias's attacks. Zapdos generally is the most reliable, but Landorus-T can deal significant damage to Latias with his U-Turn.
  
• Steel (Aegislash, Mega-Mawile, Scizor): Steel typing gives these Pokemon the ability to wall Latias almost completely, while they all have a secondary typing that protects them against Lucario's Close Combat, again backed up by respectable defensive stats. Their secondary typings also make all of these Pokemon potent offensive threats, utilizing the Ghost, Fairy and Fighting+Bug attacks mentioned previously.
  
• Fairy (Clefable, Togekiss, Mega-Mawile): Fairy typing not only threatens Lucario and Latias offensively, but also defensively, with a resistance and immunity to their respective main STABs. Clefable does especially well in this regard, with its ability to ignore any attack boosts Lucario might have gathered, but Togekiss and Mega-Mawile both have additional defensive benefits due to their secondary Flying and Steel typing.
  
• Ground (Hippowdon): While Ground typing doesn't provide any relevant resistances, the lack of common weaknesses allows Hippowdon to take full advantage of its great defenses. It also gives him a useful STAB to threaten Lucario with.

Based on the answers to the above two questions, which is more important when choosing a typing:
Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?

I agree with Dragonblaze052, that a compromise between these two attributes is necessary, so we won't be overly vulnerable to either of these groups. The first priority when choosing the typing should be to deal with the Pokemon, who threaten us both defensively and offensively, meaning they can switch in with very little consequences and start causing major damage from there. Such threats include of course Aegislash, as well as many prominent Fairy types (especially Mega-Mawile and Azumarill). Our CAP should be able to put enough offensive pressure on these threats in order to force them to play more conservatively, and deter them from switching in freely. If, however, they do manage to come in on Lucario or Latias, the CAP has to be able to take their main STAB at least decently well, or the core would quickly collapse in itself.
I also want to emphasize the importance of covering up the defensive holes that the first group takes advantage of. Although our core has a strong tendency towards offense, it will be utilizing a number of supportive moves, too, such as Defog, entry hazards, and maybe Wish, which requires at least some defensive capacity. And currently, Latias seems to be carrying this burden all alone, additionally to her role as seconday attacker and supporter. In order for Latias to fullfil all her roles reliably, she really needs CAP to take some of this load off her shoulders.

Finally, in my opinion, the offensive threats of the first group look a lot more challenging for our core and harder to play around in general. However, defensive typing can't cover all of them, and the CAP might actually find it more useful to employ offensive tactics to deal with the rest (for example by having priority to complement Lucario's)

 

[Albacore]

I honestly think that the most important aspect we need to give our CAP is a Flying resistance. Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir, two of the most fearsome offensive presences in OU, tear apart both Lucario and Latias. Staraptor also threatens the core quite a lot, and Hawlucha also does decently against it (it can OHKO Offensive Latias at +2, and Lucario's Extremespeed does less than 40%).

I agree with previous statements that the CAP should be able to set up Stealth Rock in order to threaten Flying-types. More importantly, it needs to provide a good switch-in for Latias, who can Defog before switching directly into the CAP to set hazards back up immediately. In which case, it would make a lot of sense to make the CAP weak to Stealth Rock, so that it needs the Defog from Latias to switch in. Lucario needs hazards to sweep, so I also think that it needs to be easy to send Lucario in right after hazards have been set up.

So, essentially, I think that we should make the CAP so that, assuming hazards are up on its side, it is easy to engage in a Latias-CAP-Lucario cycle which gets rid of hazards and sets them up as fast as possible, leading to a Lucario sweep. That can be achieved with a defensive pivot, both resistant to types Latias is weak to and weak to types Lucario resists.

Being able to deal with Aegislash is definitely a plus, but I honestly don't think it should be addressed typing-wise, since good bulk combined a slow Earthquake, Fire Blast, or Knock Off takes care of Aegislash very well. All we need to do for the moment is make sure that it isn't weak to any of Aegislash's common moves.

 

[56k]

Following the previous discussion I'm going to assume Luke will be running SD, Espeed, and CC with Justified on the majority of his sets, noting that ESpeed is a significant perk that differentiates him from other pokemon, getting him past Thundurus and Talonflame, and this leaves one coverage move.

In general Lucario will have difficulty breaking the better Ghosts, Fliers, and Fairies. These pokemon will usually come in the form of Aegislash, Zapdos, Azumarril, Jellicent, Gourgeist, Trevenant, Charizard-Y, Landorus, Gliscor, Skarm, Dragonite, Clefable, Togekiss, and Gyarados. I have ignored bulky grounds and bulky waters because Close Combat is ridiculously powerful and Luke can go ahead and sweep at pretty reasonable %s against the likes of Hippo, Rotom-W, etc. Things that are faster, such as garchomp and latios, can get swept with +2 Espeed after proper wearing-down. A few things like Terrakion and Scizor and Quagsire linger around with questionable status vs Luke.

I'm also going to assume a generally well made team that is meant to wear down things that Luke doesn't like, and provides him with opportunities (such as passing subs, or statusing things, or just plain old killing birds) to set up his SD at the proper time.

Now what is Latias doing? Defog is not necessarily the key point here. While nice for any team, neither of these pokemon really care about hazards (compare to Pinsir...) and it's also possible that Latias could be passing crucial screens, twaving things, passing a wish, recovering up, or what have you. I also note that Latias is seemingly taking care of some of the threats to Lucario, namely Gliscor, Garchomp, Skarmory, Zapdos, Terrakion, and Charizard. Latias' position is well deserved with or without defog, because her bulky draco meteor has just as many uses as latios' stronger one, and fast bulk is highly desirable in this current metagame. I propose Latias will be offering at least one kind of support to Luke and The Third, whether twave or a screen or a wish or even healing wish, and will also be carrying Draco Meteor and at least one more coverage move. While supporty, Latias is definitely threatening in her own right.

Now, what would make Lukes sweep easier and Latias' draco spam easier? Offensive pressure. Some pokemon with offensive typing (ideally neutral or better to stealth rocks...so latias doesnt need defog...) that just chunks things, hopefully forcing in Aegislash or Gliscor or Skarm to take the resisted hit (for 45%) lest it just snowballs. Everyone has a different opinion on what the best offensive typing is, but I think for this core it's something with wide neutral coverage with only one move, and forces in physical tanks to get worn down. This offensive pokemon could rely on Latias or Lucario to take an incoming hit. Latias is obvious with her resistances and Luke gives no fucks about Rock, Bug, Steel, and Dark attacks. This pokemon would also hopefully be able to take a hit or two from some of Lukes worst enemies.

How about offensive Rock as a primary type?

 

[Hollymon]

I think we should concentrate on Flying type and Fairy type, forgetting about Aegislash as both it's main attack moves, Shadow Ball and Sacred Sword, have neutral coverage to every single type combination in the game with the exception of one. Talonflame and Staraptor pose threats to both Lucario and Latias, especially because of Talonflames ability Gale Wings. Also fairy type is quite damaging against the duo and in my opinion our CAP should be able to take care of Flying types and Fairy types.

I think it would be better if we concentrated on having a mix of both offensive pressure to take better care of threats to the core such as Togekiss, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Staraptor and powerful dragons while being able to hold our own against those types too. It would be an added bonus if we were not weak to Aegislash either.

In conclusion, I think the typing should have strong stabs to take care of the fairies and flying types that threaten the core while also having a type which fits nicely in with the other two and also resists/is immune to the two types I have been mentioning

 

[FMD]

I don't believe that a Rock weakness is really necessary to this CAP. As long as it isn't resistant or immune to any hazards, it should be more than enough incentive to use Defog, assuming that we intend to have this Pokemon switching in and out of combat frequently. Even with this much, I feel that defensive coverage is more essential to this CAP's typing than what it would be weak to.

I also agree to what Hollymon suggested with focusing on Flying and Fairy as the types we should cover, but I feel that it is more imperative to cover Flying types defensively. This is because the main users of Flying STAB that threaten the core, Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir, have high Speed and Atk, but very frail defenses. With this in mind, we also wouldn't want to give this Pokemon a Fire or Bug weakness if we intend for it to actually take a hit from either of these Pokemon. This leaves us a few good options (many more if possible abilities are accounted for) and the best of these for Flying are, luckily enough, also super effective to Flying in return.
As far as dealing with Fairy goes, I feel that we should be more open to how to deal with it rather than focusing solely on offense or defense. Our defensive typings are really quite limited as only Poison, Fire and Steel resist it. When taking offense into consideration, both Steel and Poison continue to have the advantage over Fairy, making them a somewhat easy type to plan ahead for and deal with.
All of this being said, I do have a typing in mind, but it is not yet time to suggest those.

 

[alexwolf]

I also agree to what Hollymon suggested with focusing on Flying and Fairy as the types we should cover, but I feel that it is more imperative to cover Flying types defensively. This is because the main users of Flying STAB that threaten the core, Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir, have high Speed and Atk, but very frail defenses. With this in mind, we also wouldn't want to give this Pokemon a Fire or Bug weakness if we intend for it to actually take a hit from either of these Pokemon. This leaves us a few good options (many more if possible abilities are accounted for) and the best of these for Flying are, luckily enough, also super effective to Flying in return.
As far as dealing with Fairy goes, I feel that we should be more open to how to deal with it rather than focusing solely on offense or defense. Our defensive typings are really quite limited as only Poison, Fire and Steel resist it. When taking offense into consideration, both Steel and Poison continue to have the advantage over Fairy, making them a somewhat easy type to plan ahead for and deal with.
All of this being said, I do have a typing in mind, but it is not yet time to suggest those.

We can't be open about dealing with Mega Mawile, Mega Gardevoir, and Choice Band Azumarill. Those Pokemon beat both Lucario and Latias one on one with a single move, and you can't tank their attacks without resisting them.

 

[FMD]

Sorry, by open I meant in whether we combat them defensively or offensively. The fastest of the three (ignoring priority) is Mega Gardevoir at 100 Speed, so hitting them first and hitting hard is not unthinkable. On the other hand, we can easily make a Pokemon that resists and survives the attacks of all of these while also being able to retaliate and eliminate them. Sorry if I was vague in the last post.