CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Pata Hikari]

However losing Latias to Pursuit isn't exactly optimal. Especially when said Pursuit user is Aegislash who walls Lucario without a Dark type move and KOs with Sacred Sword.

 

[FireArrow]

Aegislash is something we've already agreed to counter with CAP, for more reasons than pursuit. While losing Latias is a major disadvantage, she can use a support move before fainting (i.e. wish) giving lucario even more ability to capitalize on it for a +2.

 

[Hollymon]

Dammit everyone has got to all the ones I was going to propose. Well I back Fire/Fairy. Hands down it is the best combination for CAP 18, resisting dark, fighting and fairy, aswell as being neutral to fairy. Not only is its synergy with the core amazing, it's offensive pressure is great too and can handle nearly any threat combined with the other two in the core.

However, I have come up with a possible other type combination. Steel/Fairy. Not only is it the best defensive typ in the game, it has great synergy with Latios and Lucario defensively and resists bug, dark and is neutral to fighting, aswell as it's qualities without them. It is resistant to flying type, a great threat to Luacrio and Latios, aswell as resisting and being able to super effectively fairy type a lot of the time. It is not weak to any of Aegislash STABs but there is a drawback in that it cannot super effectively hit Mawile, Azumarill and flying types, just being able to defend against them instead of putting pressure on offensively.

Thanks for reading, I hope you like my suggestion, I hope no one else has posted this; if they have, it has been while I was writing this

 

[vyomov]

I would like to propose a typing that hasn't been discussed much: Electric/Fairy
W/R:
4x: None
2x: Poison, Ground
1x: Fire, Steel, Water, Grass, Normal, Ice, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Fairy
1/2: Electric, Fighting, Flying, Bug, Dark
0x: Dragon

Advantages:
1) Neutral/Resist to all moves Aegislash carries:
It's neutral to both Steel and Ghost and resists the Fighting and the Dark types, meaning it can easily stop Aegislash(with the right bulk) cold.
2) Can easily patch up Lucario's speed
One of Lucario's main issues is it's sub-par speed, which leaves a lot to be desired. However, most Electric-types get Thunder Wave, meaning it can easily slow down the opponent's checks to Lucario(such as Terrakion for instance) and then allow Lucario to break through them late-game
3) Has some important resists in the current meta
This typing carries crucial resists to the Flying-type(allowing it to support the core) as well as the Dark-type, while also carrying useful resists to the Fighting-type and Electric and Bug type moves. The immunity to Dragon-types is always appreciated especially given how frail Lucario is(it can't cover for the Dragon-type moves aimed at Latias, but CAP 18 can with this typing)
4) Can wreck Azumarill
Azumarill is a big stop to the core as it can easily stop Latias with it's fairy typing and has enough bulk to take hits from Lucario(assuming a lack of Steel Coverage) and retaliate. But this typing can offensively put a quick stop to Azumarill.
5) Weaknesses are covered by this core
This is important, because it ensures that CAP 18 will largely be used in this core - Lucario is immune to Poison types and can usually put a stop to them with Ice Punch(if it chooses to run Ice Punch), while Latias is immune to most(excluding Mold Breaker Excadrill) ground-type attacks, thus adding to the synergy of the core as a whole
6) Hazard neutrality
This is crucial as this ensures it can switch in and out repeatedly IF NEEDED, although it will definitely appreciate the Defog support from Latias.
Disadvantages
1) Lack of SE STAB on Aegislash
Unlike some of the other typings suggested, this has no SE STAB on Aegislash, meaning it will need good coverage or good offensive presence to stop Aegislash in it's tracks\
2) Compounds weakness to Excadrill
This only ensures the entire core is weak to Scarf Excadrill, as this also has a weakness to the Ground-type.

I also liked Fire/Fairy, Fire/Electric and Fire/Water amongst all the typings that have been suggested and would like to discuss all the typings proposed in as much detail as possible :)

 

[M-WHALE]

After reading Admiral_Stalfos, topher, and DarkSlay's posts, I have to say, Fire/Water looks pretty nice. We resist Fairy, Smack Aegis, and murdur bulky grounds. however I seriously think we need some way typing wise to wreck ghost types, as they shred Latias to pieces and can force Luke at +2 out due to the Espeed immunity. As I said before, Sableye can will-o-wisp in Luke's face and ruin him, and Gengar can just straight up kill them both, (Unless Luke has crunch) and then of course there's the omnipresent Aegislash. However, we can't make our CAP ghost immune or resistant while also remaining fighting neutral and dark neutral (pursuit!) so, we're going to have to cover ghosts in some way other than typing (weird ability or loaded move pool?). therefore, I will continue supporting Fire/Water, and I don't think i can expand on Admiral_Stalfos, DarkSlay, and topher's posts, as they covered everything pretty well.

And in response to FireArrow's post, yes we Absolutely need CAP 18 to have a typing not weak to pursuit. you posted that Luke comes in and murders everything that pursuit traps latias, but the problem is, there is no chance in hell they are staying in after Latias is eliminated. So right now the only "punishment" for pursuit trapping Latias is that the opposing team loses a bit of momentum, while on our side we have a crucial part of our core completely eliminated.

 

[Yilx]

As the first CAP of a new Generation, it is almost necessary to me that we go above and beyond fulfilling the concept. We have always sought to explore the most prominent characteristics of the new generation in order to gain a fuller understanding of the Metagame. In generation Four, Syclant explored the physical special split that came to define the metagame by being not only a powerful mixed Sweeper, but also a Fully Special sweeper using the brand new special bug buzz. In this we got to learn what made a good mixed sweeper by comparing its performance with other mixed sweepers like Azelf and Infernape, and explore the interactions between said sweepers and how to counter them, since it both KOed and was KOed by both. In generation five, Tomohawk explored its signature power creep by not only checking the powerful pokemon of the day like Blaziken and Excadrill, but also being very powerful itself. By creating a Dark/Fairy type, we will not only be able to see what makes an effective Fairy by building one, but also we can learn what must be done to check Fairy Type Pokemon by increasing their prominence in the metagame by being weak to them. It is our goal in cap to learn about the metagame, and nothing teaches us about fairy-types like Dark/Fairy does.

In addition, there is no fear that we will not fail our Concept. Dark/Fairy is one of the best counters to Aegislash there is. It resists shadow ball and is neutral to Sacred Sword. As you can see with these Usage Statistics, Steel type moves are rare on Aegis;

King's Shield 91.871% | Shadow Sneak 88.437% | Sacred Sword 72.245% | Swords Dance 49.306% | Shadow Ball 41.337% | Iron Head 24.110% | Flash Cannon 10.001% | Autotomize 4.391% | Other 18.303%

As you we all know, the mixed attacking set is the most threatening Aegislash set. It usually runs Shadow Ball in tandom with Sacred Sword for unresisted coverage and Shadow Sneak as a strong priority move off it's colossal 150 base Attack to pick off weakened targets; probably weakened targets that Lucario or Latias left behind, even. From there, we can hit it back with Pursuit or predict around it and potentially use Knock Off, removing it's item and crippling it for the rest of the match. Furthermore, this truly discourages the use of Aegislash as a pursuit user.

If anyone is worried about not resisting Fairy type moves, in fact being weak to them, that's where the other 3 members of our team come into play. Instead of worrying about being weak to fairy, I think we should look at this from another perspective; your opponent would want to keep their Fairy attacker alive as much as they can to take the core down and if you can force it out properly and hit it with a strong coverage move, the core is free to run amok and you can simply watch your opponent struggle to win from that point on! A simple run of a Roseli Berry could be warranted for the extra paranoid, reducing the damage taken from A Sylveon Hyper Voice or an Azumarill Play Rough. We could also easily play around it by baiting them to use a Fairy move on their Mons and then switch into something else that resists Fairy, putting a damper on their momentum and gaining offensive advantage over the opponent.

What does this typing have over other typings? It also beats the other common Pursuit users, Tyranitar and Bisharp. Its weaknesses to Poison and Steel require you to use it with Lucario, instead of, say, Mega Pinsir or Terrakion, which do not resist.

Dark/Fairy also has the bonus advantage of being absolutely amazing STAB coverage; hell, the only Pokemon in the game that resists the typing combo are Mawile and Klefki! Two Pokemon out of the 700+ available. Dark/Fairy is looking like a mighty interesting typing and I feel that we should look more into it. It'll probably produce some of the coolest art, too ;)

 

[epicparker]

(Hi this is my first time on Smogon Forums. I think I know what I'm doing but if I screw up let me know politely please.)

I agree with the Dark/Fairy typing proposed by many, as it quadrupely resists Dark type moves, such as Pursuit, which poses a big threat to the team, Aegislash's Dark Pulse, and Crunch, which is used by Mega-Mawile and many others.
However I dislike the Fairy weakness here, so I prefer Poison/Fairy. Here's the defensive matchups:

4x- Zilch
2x- Ground, Steel, Psychic
1/2x- Grass, Dark, Fairy
1/4x- Fighting, Bug
0x- Dragon

I don't love this Ground Weakness here, but I feel as if it is not too harmful, but if it is, it could easily be removed by giving it Levitate. However I'd prefer if it had a more interesting ability. Anyway, back to the current topic, this typing resists the important Dark type, as well as Bug, which threatens Latias in some cases (most notably being Volcarona and Mega-Hera), not to mention Fighting, which is SE on Luke, and Fairy, which poses a threat via Togekiss and Mega-Maw.

Offensively, it gives Poison STAB, which would help to get rid of Togekiss, and Fairy STAB for the threatening Dark types. Fairy also covers certain Fighting types (which kill Luke) and Dragons (which threaten Latias).

(Ok, so I'm not great at this part. I'll participate now, but more so at the drawing part.)

 

[alexwolf]

To address Pokemon such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, I personally don't see a Flying resist as nearly as mandatory as choosing a type that makes it offensively better against Ground-types. Steel-type moves are very predictable, and Electric moves are easy to wall. Giving Garchomp a free switch-in will give this core nightmares, for example. I'd much rather have the firepower to take on all of our proposed threats offensively than worry about tanking hits from priority users. If we're going to worry about assigning CAP 18 a defensive role (something we've established that we don't want), we can designate that role to a fourth member of the team. Focusing too much of CAP 18's weaknesses and resistances loses focus on the offensive nature of the project, which isn't really wanted. Keep that in mind!

Electric moves are not easy to wall at all, especially when paired with Fire STAB. Out of the Pokemon that resist or are immune to Electric moves, only Garchomp, Latios, and Latias, resist both, and Garchomp can easily be burned by WoW and neutered, a move that all Fire-types can learn. So, you only have Latios and Latias that you can't threaten without coverage moves, two Pokemon that check a Fire / Water CAP as well. And if you don't believe me that an offensive Fire-type will carry Will-O-Wisp, look no further than Mega Charizard X, which takes advantage of the pressure the DD set applies to burn some of its usual switch-ins, such as Azumarill, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon.

I also think requiring a Stealth Rock weakness is foolish when your proposed Defogger is Pursuit weak in general and Bisharp food specifically. Lucario beats Bisharp, but Bisharp neutralizes Latias.

Mega Charizard Y manages just fine with Latias as a partner, and it is 4x SR weak, so i don't see how a CAP that is only 2x weak to SR wouldn't be fine with Defog support from Latias.

The interesting thing about Lucario and Latias is that they already mesh well typing-wise and can resist almost any kind of attack, which is the stuff good cores are made of (between the two of them they resist every attacking type except Fairy, Flying, and Ghost). The big problem, however, is that Lucario's statistical frailness and reliance on Life Orb means it can't reasonably participate in tanking hits that force Latias out, specifically Dragon and Ice attacks, unlike Latias, who can take Fighting, Ground, and Fire attacks very well and Recover off the damage. What I am proposing is, instead of interweaving a brand new set of weaknesses and resistances into this already decently stable core, we give the CAP a typing that shares many of Lucario's resistances, or in other words create a "secondary Lucario" via typing that can actually perform the duties of covering Latias's weaknesses. Having Latias and CAP switch around into attacks while softening up the opponent is going to make Lucario's sweeping job much easier. Don't say you didn't see this coming, but I am proposing Poison/Steel as the typing for this CAP. Here's the breakdown:

4x: Ground
2x: Fire
1x: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Ghost, Psychic, Water
1/2x: Dragon, Flying, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel
1/4x: Bug, Fairy, Grass
0x: Poison

Between only Latias and CAP, every type is resisted except Dark and Ghost. CAP would not only resist Bug, Dragon, Fairy, and Ice attacks, it would even resist every attack that hits Latias neutrally. With the exception of Dark and Ghost, Latias would be able to do the same for CAP. Lucario resists Dark and gets an Attack boost from it, so that's his end of the deal. Ghost is the only unresisted type, but that's a tough type to resist these days (and at the very least this typing isn't weak to it). Crucially, a Poison/Steel CAP can not only take the lead in soaking up Ice and Dragon attacks aimed at Latias, it can also take Fairy and Flying attacks, which Lucario can't do. It can take the chip damage from U-turn for Lucario as the opponent switches in a check or counter, removing Luke from a vulnerable position. It can relieve Lucario of Scizor-tanking duties as well. Yes, this typing doubles up on Ground and Fire weaknesses, but between Levitate and special bulk, Latias can take just about any of these attacks in stride (Mold Breaker Excadrill is a notable exception).

Offensively (and defensively, for that matter), this typing fills the Fairy-crushing role this core desperately needs. CAP can run the Steel-STAB Lucario has no room for and keep 3 whole moveslots open for potential coverage or support moves (you don't need both STABs with this typing). I mention coverage especially because Poison/Steel is sadly neutral to both of Aegislash's typical attacks and can't touch it back with STAB alone. Fortunately there are lots of steps left to better deal with the undead sword monster. Obviously, no single typing combination can do everything we need this CAP to do for the core, but I think Poison/Steel gets us off to a solid start when considering what sort of backbone we need to support this core.

Poison / Steel has bad offensive STABs, which we can't afford. We need good offensive STABs so that the CAP doesn't have to spend most of its moveset for coverage, and we need super effective STABs for some big threats to our core that can't be OHKOed by coverage moves, such as Azumarill and Aegislash.

In general, Flying and Fairy resistances are musts imo, as without them you can't tank hits from Pokemon such as Mega Mawile, Azumarill, and Talonflame, unless we give to the CAP the physical bulk of a physical wall, something that seems unlikely, given that we want an offensive minded Pokemon. Azumarill and Talonflame are just too big threats to let to other Pokemon to handle, and having a way to deal with them is a must if we want our core to be successful.

With that said, here are some typings that i like:

Steel / Flying

Checks Fairy-types, checks Ground-types, checks choiced Talonflame, and is not weak to any of Aegislash's moves while being immune to Toxic. Obviously, without a lot of special bulk Shadow Ball is going to hurt, but this can be fixed either with abilities, good special bulk, or reliable recovery and decent special bulk. The lack of a STAB to threaten Aegislash is not such a concern, because if we go the set up route, we can just give to the CAP a coverage move that is super effective against Aegislash and can OHKO or dent it after a boost. A CAP with this typing also has good defensivey synergy with Latias, resisting Dragon and Fairy moves, and Latias resisting Fire and Electric moves. The biggest downsides to this typing are that it leaves the core weak to Zapdos, non-choiced Talonflame, and leaves some Fire-type threats uncovered as well (such as Mega Charizard X, which can set up on Lucario or the CAP and OHKO all the three Pokemon after), but the advantages are more than enough to overcome those flaws.

Fire / Electric

Checks Fairy-types, checks Zapdos, checks Talonflame, and can threaten immediately Aegislash. All those are great traits, and this typing has two additional advantages over Steel / Flying: 1. It is weak to Stealth Rock, making Latias a great natural partner for it, meaning that offensive teams will actuallly want to pair the CAP with Latias, and not just use CAP + Lucario with another Pokemon and 2. Fire / Electric provides great offensive STABs, unlike Steel / Flying, which can't immediately threaten some important Pokemon that trouble our core, such as Zapdos and Aegislash. However, this typing leaves us wide open to Ground-types, and a bit open to Azumarill, which although can be played around if choiced (Latis resists Water moves, and the CAP resists Fairy), and revenge killed by Latias if it is the Belly Drum set, can still be quite problematic, threatening with a OHKO all three of our Pokemon with just its STABs. However, all three of our Pokemon can damage it significantly (Latias with Thunderbolt, Lucario with Iron Tail, and the CAP with Electric STAB), meaning that it can at very least be played around, even if it means sacrificing one Pokemon of the core to take it down.

Water / Ground sounds decent, but without a Fairy resistance you just can't switch into Pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir, Choice Specs Sylveon, Choice Band Azumarill, and Mega Mawile, all very big threats to our core.

Fire / Water is fine, but i don't like how its STABs are resisted by Azumarill, an already big threat to the other two Pokemon, and that it doesn't resist Flying, which means that CB Talonflame and Mega Pinsir become huge problems.

 

[Mektar]

OK, here's the thing. Many typings that have been proposed are too good. For example, take Dark/Fairy. What's it weak to? Poison and Steel. What resists Poison and Steel? Nearly every Steel type. In other words, if CAP 18 was Dark/Fairy, it would be just as likely to see play with Aegislash as against it. Said typing even resists Ghost and Dark. Throw in a Gyarados or something to cover for Aegislash's remaining weaknesses, and bam, now you have a core that's way superior to the proposed one. We don't want another Voodoom, so our CAP should ideally share weaknesses with commonly used Pokémon like Aegislash, rather than cover for them.

 

[Nyktos]

So here's the thing: every type combination is terrible. It's getting rather tiring seeing people propose whatever typing they like, and then pick apart the things that make other typings bad as if the same kinds of arguments don't apply to their own proposal. We are going to choose a type that has massive gaping flaws, because they all do. The approach we need to take is to prioritize: pick one thing we want our typing to do, and then see which other nice properties are actually possible to get alongside it.

As far as I'm concerned, that priority number 1 should be Aegislash. It's gotten a lot more attention in this thread and the previous than any single other Pokémon, and with good reason: it's one of the most heavily used Pokémon in OU, and it's a massive pain in the ass for both members of our chosen core. While making a "perfect 100% Aegislash counter" is both an incredibly difficult proposition and one that has massive implications outside the scope of our concept, matching up well against it is critical, and with Aegislash being the monster it is it's desirable to do that at the typing stage.

So, what do we need to get that favourable matchup? Ideally, a resistance to Ghost without being weak to either of Fighting or Steel. Aegislash commonly uses Shadow Ball alongside physical moves, sometimes including a physical Ghost move in Shadow Sneak. This means that without a Ghost resistance, huge bulk is needed on both sides of the spectrum, which is not in the cards if we want something useful offensively as well. By resisting Ghost we can beat Aegislash without impressive special bulk. There are a relatively limited number of type combinations which achieve this, and of them the one that stands out the most (to me) is Dark/Flying. This typing is about as good as you can get at defeating Aegislash, with a super effective STAB move as well as the aforementioned defensive synergies. Furthermore, Dark and Flying are a very solid pair of STABs in general, getting neutral coverage on everything relevant bar Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Klefki, which can all be covered by one type (Ground) should that be deemed desirable.

The typing isn't perfect: it's got unfortunate weaknesses to Fairy and Ice and is vulnerable to Toxic. But I wasn't elected to be perfect no typing is, and I think this one is better than the alternatives. Normal/Poison has the nice Fairy resistance and Toxic immunity, but is weak to Ground and has awful STAB. Dark/Poison is slightly better on the STAB front, but has few useful resistances. The rest of the Aegislash-killer type combinations are worse. Dark/Flying is perhaps merely the best of a bad bunch, but that's all we can really hope for.

 

[FMD]

I disagree. I think that our main goal should be to cover as many of the major threats to the core rather than focusing almost solely on a single Pokemon. If we get too narrow minded with this, we will leave ourselves wide open to dozens of threats because all we thought about stopping was Aegislash. I agree that Aegislash is a major problem but it's one that cannot be worked around without major drawbacks. I feel that the best course of action would be one that would resist several threats (Fairy, Dragon, Flying, etc) without exposing another major weakness to Aegislash. As long as we are at least neutral to Aegislash's common moves, I feel like that is a good enough victory for the typing stage and we can further address the issue later during the discussions involving movepool and abilities.

 

[GRs Cousin]

As a few others have said, Fire/Fairy is objectively the best defensive typing for this CAP.

CAP1 Defensively
4x - None
2x - Water, Ground, Rock, Poison
1x - Normal, Flying, Ghost, Steel, Electric, Psychic
1/2x - Grass, Fire, Ice, Fighting, Dark, Fairy
1/4x - Bug
0x - Dragon

• Weak to Water, Ground, Rock, and Poison
• Resists hits from Grass, Fire, Ice, Fighting, Dark, Fairy, Bug, and Dragon-type moves

Latias Defensively
4x - None
2x - Dragon, Ice, Fairy, Dark, Ghost, Bug
1x - Normal, Flying, Steel, Poison, Rock
1/2x - Grass, Fire, Water, Electric, Fighting, Psychic
1/4x - None
0x - Ground

• Weak to Ghost, Ice, Dark, Fairy, Bug, and Dragon-type moves
• Resists hits from Grass, Fire, Water, Electric, Fighting, Psychic, and Ground-type moves

Lucario Defensively
4x - None
2x - Ground, Fighting, Fire
1x - Water, Electric, Flying, Fairy, Psychic, Ghost
1/2x - Normal, Grass, Dragon, Dark, Ice, Steel
1/4x - Rock, Bug
0x - Poison

• Weak to Ground, Fighting, and Fire-type moves
• Resists hits from Normal, Grass, Dragon, Dark, Ice, Steel, Rock, Bug, and Poison-type moves

As shown, Fire/Fairy gives near-perfect complimentary typing that allows switch-ins for its teammates while taking hits they would otherwise not like. Save for Ghost and Flying-type moves, nothing can pressure the core. The only downside to this typing is that offensively it doesn't cover much else beyond Grass and Bug-types, the former of which is already handled by Latias' Hidden Power Fire and Lucario's Ice Punch. Besides opening up a moveslot for them, it reliably takes down Steel-types and Conkeldurr. That's about it.

However, with an emphasis going into offensive potential, Electric/Fairy and Dark/Fairy both provide value offensive threat to Dragon, Fighting, and Dark-types that would give Latias and Lucario trouble, with Electric/Fairy doing a better job at walling Talonflame's Brave Bird while Dark/Fairy has double resistance to Dark and a single resistance to Ghost. Fairy is the necessary typing either way on how it covers most of the holes Lucario and Latias don't fill with their offensive presence.

 

[Hollymon]

In my opinion, the best combination mentioned so far is Electric/Poison. It has so much going for it. For one, it resists the two main threats that plague Latias and Lucario, Flying type and Fairy type. This is a very good thing for the core because it reduces the threat of those two types and has great defensive synergy with the other two members of the core.

Flying type for me is a major issue for LuLa and if our CAP resists the type through Electric, it would greatly help as there are lots of strong flying type mons such as Mega-Pinsir, Staraptor and of course, Talonflame. Also the electric type means it has STAB super effective moves against most flying types (with the exception of Zapdos and a few others).

The poison type deals with most fairies, except Mawile-Mega and Klefki although they can be hit neutrally with the Electric typing. It is great defensively as it puts a stop to those fairies that threaten Lucario and Latias, aswell as putting pressure offensively on the fairies, so in my opinion it is a great choice. Also it resists fighting type, one of Aegislash's stable moves type, and Steel type is taken care of with the electric type.

Electric/Poison Defense
4x - Ground
2x - Psychic
1x - Normal, Fire, Water, Ice, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
0.5x - Electric, Grass, Fighting, Poison, Flying, Bug, Steel, Fairy
0.25x - None

In conclusion, this is the best type because IMO, it takes care of most threats defensively and although it may not be super effectively, it can hit things for some damage.

 

[Birkal]

It's good that we're getting some serious nominations going on, but please, let's stop throwing types up against the wall and hoping something sticks. There's an abundance of proposed types already that could use a lot of discussion. We don't need to see the type chart of these typings anymore; let's get on with the meat of the discussion.


I'm not sold on any particular typing at the moment, but I'd like to comment on all the Fairy-types running around. As I was discussing with jas61292 (our Typing Leader) on #cap the other day, I think Fairy-type is going to be a hard sell for this concept. If you look at the conversations we've had thus far (both Concept Assessment 2 and this thread), you'll see that pretty much everything we've agreed upon is just about as anti-Fairy as it gets. We're looking for a Pokemon that takes on Aegislash and other similar threats. Yes, Dragonblaze052, you can read all about it in Concept Assessment 2; we specifically called out that Pokemon as a threat we wish to stop. We're looking to put the kabosh on Pokemon that threaten both Latias and Lucario, and Aegislash is at the top of that list.

It's worrisome that people are seriously considering a Steel weakness as something that's acceptable for this typing. Sure, Aegislash do not always run Steel-type STAB, but they can easily enough. One of the best things about Aegislash is that it can pick and choose what it wants to beat based on team synergy. Shadow Sneak becomes optional when you have Talonflame / Mega Pinsir in the wings. Swords Dance isn't necessary when you have other set up sweepers on the team. There is plenty of room for Aegislash to tack on Steel-type coverage, and it's not unfeasible for it to do so thanks to the Fairies already running around in Overused.

Let's reflect on what jas61292 said in this thread:

Reading through the posts so far, I think it is pretty clear that it is Aegislash, Fairies, and some other things, such as some Ground types that give our existing core members trouble. Now, obviously we probably will not be able to beat every Pokemon that gives the others trouble, and nor should we.

I don't see how Fairy-type helps us beat any of those mentioned threats. Aegislash walks all over us (yes, even if its Steel-type STAB is only neutral). Fairies aren't particularly helpful against other Fairies or Ground-types. We aren't resisting anything that we've discussed previously. Sure, Fairies are immune to Dragons. But please link me to one post in the past that recommended our core should fear Dragon-types. I think you will be hard pressed to find anything of substance. I understand that Fairy / Fire is great offensively, but remember that typings have an inherent sense of defensive duty. And unless we make a Pokemon with stacked defenses and good speed, it's not going to beat these threats one-on-one OR help our core in a meaningful way. We can always add Fairy-coverage later without having STAB on it.


Finally, I'd like to reflect on Yilx's point about. I don't put much stock in your previous arguments about the first CAPs of each generation. Syclant's concept was literally "ultimate Garchomp killer", and the discussion of split moves came much later. Tomohawk wasn't created to discuss power creep; it's concept was all about momentum. Power creep was simply an after effect due to all of the broken things running around in its metagame. CAP18 is about creating cores. No where in the concept submission, concept assessments, or this thread will you find anything that gives evidence that Fairy-type is good for this Pokemon. If you wanted to make a concept about Fairy-types, that ship has sailed. It's unrelated to this concept, and I don't think we should begin to go down that rabbit hole with this CAP.

I know that my opinions here are pretty unpopular. Believe me, I wish we could have a Fairy-type for CAP18. But the previous conversations and ideas do not at all accumulate to supporting the type. I fear that many of the suggestions coming in now are more fanboyish than anything. Unless you have some extremely strong evidence that Fairy-type is conducive to everything we've decided thus far, it is probably best to stow that argument away. Please, let's not take a giant dump on all of our hard work so far.

 

[Project_Mars]

I do agree with that assessment on Dark/Fairy being a bit too good for the concept. Fire/Water, Dark/Poison, and Fire/Electric are my three favorites because they all resist Fairy-types and have a Super Effective STAB vs Aegislash, which is what this needs to have. Fire/Water and Fire/Electric both have a way to demolish Talonflame whereas Dark/Poison has poison to take down 90% of Fairies. On a defensive front, I think Fire/Water has the best typing, so there's that.

 

[Dennis Moberg]

I like Dark/Poison and Electric/Poison. Poison to tank fairy and get good defensive synergy with the other two members, and then it depends on what you mainly want to beat. Dark would be to stop Aegislash, while Electric would handle Talonflame / M-Pinsir.

I also agree with Birkal about dropping the Fairy type discussion since it adds nothing defensively that we've outlined that we need for the CAP.

 

[Clankenator007]

Suprised nobody has even mentioned this type so far considering Aegislash is enemy #1.

You want to stop Aegislash? You want a Normal/Ghost type.

This type absolutely destroys Aegislash, being immune to both his main STAB and coverage and hitting back with a devestating ghost move of it's own.

There is a certain stigma on the normal type at the moment, most people consider it the worst type. Now I'm not claiming that normal is an amazing type, but paired with ghost it is actually quite good, especially for our core right here.

Cons of Normal / Ghost:

• Not a lot of resistances, only resists bug. Not resisting Dragon, Fairy, or Ground is potentially a major issue. Ground isn't as important because of Latias but we don't have anyone to take the Dragon or Fairy moves. Maybe we really want to or perhaps we'll just leave them to our other three members. idk
• Weak to pursuit. This is an issue that goes either way for me. On one hand, pursuit trapping could potentially rip this core up, but on the other hand Lucario does well against the common pursuit users and encouraging them out could lend him set up opportunity.
• Cannot absorb status for Lucario. This is actually a big deal with Rotom-W handing out will-o-wisps and thunder waves like they're Halloween candy. While CAP1 isn't meant to be a sweeper nothing likes being burned or paralyzed.
• Stopped dead cold by Tyranitar and Bisharp, who also happen to be the major pursuit users.

Pros to Normal / Ghost:

• Completely Immune to Ghost and Fighting, the biggest two threatening offensive types for this core
• Bitchslaps Aegislash and all other offensive ghost types
• While it is weak to pursuit, the only pursuiters it fears are Ttar and Bisharp, which matches perfectly with it's main counters meaning that this type really has nothing to fear other than those two, which are easily KO'd/ Set up on by Lucario or can be easily dealt with via a fighting type coverage move.
• Massive offensive presence. Ghost is arguably the best offensive type this generation and only Bisharp / Ttar resist both STABs.
• Plethora of sub-busting moves. I feel this is something we have somewhat overlooked, and is a significant problem atm. Lucario cannot come in on anything with a substitute because he can't threaten a OHKO and is easily dismantled by even neutral attacks and status. Latias doesn't like subs because she relies on status and can't reliably break them with her relatively weak uninvested Dragon Pulse and Psyshock. Having STAB hyper voice or boomburst (dear God no) is a major aid in breaking substitute "walls" and allowing Latias and Lucario to do their jobs.

The most important flaw with this type in my opinion is not stopping status. I think it is unfortunate that this typing doesn't do much to stop burns or thunder waves, but I think cold stopping Aegislash is worth that. For this same reasoning I am in favor of all the Electric/x and Fire/x typings out there too.

My favorite typings so far (besides this one obviously) are Fire/Electric and Fire/Fairy. Fire/Electric has that great quality of roasting Aegislash and taking all the status that could cripple Lucario. For the most part I am against Fairy because it give Aegislash an exploitable weakness but Fire/Fairy is the exception because it is neutral to steel and roasts him. That dragon immunity and fairy resist are nice too. I'd say these typing make a better bulky pivot while Normal/Ghost makes a better bulky attacker.

Tl;Dr - Normal / Ghost is #1 ghostbuster

 

[Pata Hikari]

OK let's look at some of the interesting types.

Fire/Water: This is another good one. My main issue is that is is terribly Azumarill weak, both its STABs being resisted and Azumarill can easily KO in return. It handles Ground type better in return, at least.

Steel/Flying: A strong defensive typing, as Skarmory has shown over four Generations, Flying is even decent defensively and Steel STAB handles Faires. However, it can't do much to Aegislash who is pretty important. Every type suggestion I think should have some way to handle the sword either offensively or defensively.

Dark/Flying and Normal/Ghost: Both of these typings are pretty much built to do the same thing. Absolutely stop Aegislash in its tracks. It does this wonderfully, even at the cost of extra offensive capability. My main concern is that focusing too much on it leads to ended up weak to other Pokemon that threaten the core.

 

[GRs Cousin]

I swear I read a while back that somebody brought up the issue that Lucario is incapable of switching into Dragon-type moves even with its resistance due to its frailty. Unboosted Garchomp and Dragonite Outrage OHKO Latias and easily 2HKO Lucario. Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse aren't outright issues the same as physical Dragon STAB can be, but it's definitely an issue that's going overlooked for the most part in the thread.

Again, one of the main appeals to Fire/Fairy (that other Fairy-types tossed around lack) is its neutrality to Aegislash's Steel-type moves and its ability to retaliate with supereffective Fire STAB. While it won't be able to switch into a +2 Aegislash's Iron Head and live to survive a Shadow Sneak, it still places an immediately threatening presence on Aegislash in its standard moves alone. Combine that with how Aegislash has nothing that hits Fire/Fairy supereffectively and the typing makes itself a check at minimum to a counter at most to Aegislash.

The difference between this type and other types that can counter Aegislash is that it still has utility with the core beyond checking just one Pokemon. The aforementioned issue of Lucario's frailty becomes resolved in that there's an actual member of the core that can switch into Dark and Dragon-type moves. The offensive potential of the typing hits 7 types supereffectively with STAB alone, 2 of which Lucario and Latias would need coverage just to hit hard. With extra coverage of its own, or with the opened coverage that becomes available when Lucario and Latias no longer need to run Ice Punch and Hidden Power Fire, CAP18 can neuter the effectiveness of Latias and Lucario's weaknesses, both offensively and defensively. It becomes a reliable core-member, in other words, beyond being a Pokemon designed to merely counter Aegislash.

 

[FireArrow]

The problem with ghost/normal is we're gonna be really reliant on stats. It has a huge lack of super effective coverage and resistances, and doesn't do anything for our core other than stop aegislash. It would only work out if we gave it high enough defenses to tank powerful neutral hits or high enough offenses so it can tear things apart with coverage moves.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

Having looked over the posts (including Birkal's), I believe there is one more type unexplored as of yet that could be seriously be considered for CAP18:
Water/Flying

Pros

1. Water allows this Pokemon to resist Steel STAB from Aegislash, while checking Aegislash offensively.
2. This Pokemon also resists the Water STAB of another large, but underdiscussed, threat: Azumarill, which Lucario and Latias also have trouble dealing with.
3. This Pokemon's Flying type allows it to offensively check the previously mentioned Azumarill.
4. Lucario can easily switch out to this Pokemon, as it is immune to Ground and resistant to Fighting and Fire.
5. Lucario can easily switch in for this Pokemon if one can predict a Rock type attack attempted on this Pokemon.
6. This Pokemon can switch out to Latias when it is obvious the foe will use an Electric type move.
7. This Pokemon is neutral to Dragon, Fairy, Dark, Ghost and Ice, allowing Latias to switch out to it when necessary.
8. Flying and Water allow this Pokemon to counter Fire types and Fighting types, which can often OHKO Lucario.
9. Lucario can switch out to either this or Latias on a predicted Fire, Fighting, or Ground move, making it difficult for the opponent to predict.
10. This Pokemon's Flying type can take out Bug types dangerous to Latias.
11. The 7 previously mentioned Pros help it to be a great Pivot for this core.

Cons

1. This Pokemon and Latias may take on roles that are too similar if we are not extremely careful with the CAP process every step of the way.
2. This Pokemon is only neutral to Ghost STAB from Aegislash and Fairy STAB from Azumarill, which are still fair threats.
3. if this Pokemon is too much of a Pivot, it may make switch-outs predictable.
4. Switching too often makes it hard for Lucario and/or Latias to boost their stats.
5. This Pokemon's Pivot role could become overpowered if CAP is not careful.

So, in all its pros and despite all its cons, I believe this typing could become extremely effective as the Major Third.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Gotta support Ghost/Normal for this typing. While it obviously destroys Aegislash, it really prevents any ghost (itself included) from bothering Lucario or Latias, and Ghost is really good at bothering Lucario and Latias.

I can see why people want to explore Fairy more, but the explosion of Ghost as arguably the best attacking type in the game shouldn't be overlooked. A pokemon that not only uses this type offensively but counters practically every ghost in the meta would be a perfect third for any core that doesn't like ghost/fighting. Which, given their perfect coverage, includes quite a lot of cores.

 

[Hollymon]

More like forget Normal/Ghost. This is is the most ridiculous idea in the thread in my opinion as you are literally ONLY countering Aegislash. In fact, you are hardly countering it, more like forcing it out. You sacrifice potential to check and counter many threats to the core to only focus on ONE single threat which can still hit you, if it runs iron head instead. This is not the idea of a core. You are supposed to protect as many aspects of the core as you can, not just throw away potential to check one single pokemon.

I am torn between Electric/Poison and Fire/Water at the moment. My earlier post was about the former. Here is why I like the latter. It is weak to stealth rocks, meaning we will keep the core intact because people will still need defog Latios. It can super effectively hit most Ground types, which Lucario has trouble with and is resistant to fairies, capable of super effectively hitting Mega Mawile, aswell as hitting Aegislash. Aegislash cannot hit you super effectively, and also you have amazing coverage, able to hit nearly all the threats that Lucario and Latios can't handle.

 

[PikapowerUltra]

I love Dark/Poison. It resists ghost, and is neutral to aegislash's other moves, meaning that it only needs good special defense rather than outstanding in order to beat it. it also has no weaknesses and resists pursuit, which is very important, given that one of our core members is weak to it. having two pursuit weak mons in the same core means that the core gets trapped pretty fast. the downside to this typing is that scarf excadrill still wrecks all three members. also, a stealth rocks weakness isnt as important as simply not resisting them, as even doing 12% per switch adds up fast.

 

[M-WHALE]

Alright, I thought of something that may just cut it:


At first i liked normal ghost, but then i realized while that rids us of our problems with Aegislash and friends,(ghosts) it gives us a dual pursuit weakness, and our core will be quickly destroyed (Luke being able to KO after doesn't matter, as Bisharp and T-tar can do something called switching out) and, in addition, it does nothing to cover any of our other weaknesses. so here's this:

Dark/Electric

W/R:

4x: None
2x: Ground, Fighting, Fairy, Bug
1x: Normal, Water, Fire, Grass, Ice, Dragon, Poison, Rock
1/2x: Flying, Ghost, Steel, Dark, Electric
1/4x: None
Immunities: psychic

SE Against: Ghost, Psychic, Flying, Water

Pros:

1. We hit Aegislash for super effective STAB damage
2. We resist the ghost type, a massive threat to this core
3. We also hit flying types like Talonflame and m-pinsir for SE STAB damage
4. We have something to switch into on BB and return, as we resist flying
5. We resist pursuit
6. only Collosoil and Wormadam-S resist STAB, allowing the CAP to run two support moves (or most likely an ice type move for those pesky ground types)
7. We get STAB knock off, which is always nice
8. Even better, we get STAB volt switch, so this mon can fill the role of a pivot very nicely

Cons:

1. we are weak to fighting, meaning CAP must OHKO Aegis with knock off/sucker punch or get smacked by Sacred Sword.
2. Bulky Grounds are still an issue (can be fixed w/ ability, but that is a discussion for later)
3. Fairies are still problematic
4. Bugs are slightly annoying considering Latias' weakness, but aren't that bad
5. we don't have an entirely impressive range of pokes that we hit for SE damage

So, despite the fact that there are undoubtedly some problems here, i think this typing could definitely work given the proper stats and ability. thanks for reading, just thought i'd put my two cents in. Also, I thought I'd point out that dark/poison does indeed have a weakness in ground.