Weak Armor is an interesting option alongside Analytic, but I am failing to see what it does for our concept. Could you explain further how it helps fit into our core, and helps Latias and Lucario with their roles?
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CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion
- Thread starter jas61292
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I 100% support Infiltrator. It doesn't overshadow Analytic by any stretch of imagination but does scare away the only Aegislash set that actually can cause some headache to CAP (besides being useful against a bunch of pokemon that otherwise may be a nuisance, as DetroitLolcat explained). I don't like too much powerful abilities like Intimidate, No Guard or Poison Heal, that bring in the risk of drastically changing the way CAP is played, which I feel shouldn't happen in a secondary ability selection.
Cloud Nine, which I mentioned before for outspeeding Sand Rush Excadrill, Swift Swim Kabutops, and avoiding Sand damage also has the nice benefit of raising our damage output vs Tyranitar. 252 SpA CAP 18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO vs 252 SpA CAP 18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Another interesting option not yet raised:
Mold Breaker, which doesn't actually do a ton for us, since its best use is for EQ hitting Levitators. However, it does prevent something like Gastrodon from switching in so easily and makes it so Heatran can't switch in on Fire moves (depends on the sets since we normally outspeed and have Water STAB, but could be useful sometimes). It also means that we can hit Dragonite hard off the bat with an HP Ice if we want to, avoiding Multiscale. It lets us OHKO Skarmory (or Donphan :o). It also doubles our damage output against Mega Venusaur.
That said, I still probably support Infiltrator over all other abilities.
Another interesting option not yet raised:
Mold Breaker, which doesn't actually do a ton for us, since its best use is for EQ hitting Levitators. However, it does prevent something like Gastrodon from switching in so easily and makes it so Heatran can't switch in on Fire moves (depends on the sets since we normally outspeed and have Water STAB, but could be useful sometimes). It also means that we can hit Dragonite hard off the bat with an HP Ice if we want to, avoiding Multiscale. It lets us OHKO Skarmory (or Donphan :o). It also doubles our damage output against Mega Venusaur.
That said, I still probably support Infiltrator over all other abilities.
I would like to nominate Shield Dust for the secondary ability. Due to the nature of CAP18, unexpected hax occurring to CAP18 might cause the core unable to operate successfully. Quite coincidentally, out of all the moves that actually are actually affected by Shield Dust, pretty much every one of them that commonly seen causes problem to our core in one way or another. Shield Dust basically reduce such risks to the minimum. However, it is in no way giving Analytic too much competition because Shield Dust is the kind of ability which is luck-dependent at its finest, in the sense that if you are really lucky, you won't even need it.
I'm saying it fits better than Infiltrator by any means because I believe Infiltrator is still one of the better abilities for CAP18, but I'm just bringing a possible alternative into discussion.
I'm saying it fits better than Infiltrator by any means because I believe Infiltrator is still one of the better abilities for CAP18, but I'm just bringing a possible alternative into discussion.
I would like to bring up Marvel Scale as a secondary ability. I think this has some merit as one of the things we worry about is SubToxic so why not try and make anybody who wants to wear down our CAP second guess that idea? It'll give CAP18 more bulk but at a huge cost of putting on a timer or causing us to lose speed which we need for certain threats. I think that this is a good pairing with Analytic because neither have an activation message and your opponent will not know which one CAP18 runs untill they make that decision. Not to mention most people will more than likely use Analytic anyway because the sheer increase in power is usually more attractive than an increase to physical bulk that can cause some issues in terms of longevity. On another note, I also think Infiltrator is a great option for CAP18.
Infiltrator is probably the best secondary ability for the cap because it stops subrs who threaten the core. It also stops the only aegislash we are worried about, toxisub aegislash.
Bulletproof is another option though since its was given up last time because of being to specific to be primary ability but now it allows the cap to still stop aegislash, although toxic/ sub still makes are cap mad.
Rattled is my favorite though because we have the bulk to take shadow ball and sneak and these being aegislash's favorite attacks it pretty much gives aegislash even more hassle for attacking with analytic and rattled aegislash will be terrified of this cap but again sub-toxic aegislash still a problem.
Bulletproof is another option though since its was given up last time because of being to specific to be primary ability but now it allows the cap to still stop aegislash, although toxic/ sub still makes are cap mad.
Rattled is my favorite though because we have the bulk to take shadow ball and sneak and these being aegislash's favorite attacks it pretty much gives aegislash even more hassle for attacking with analytic and rattled aegislash will be terrified of this cap but again sub-toxic aegislash still a problem.
Infiltrator is a very good compliment to analytic and serves the purpose that a secondary ability should.
Other options that I think are interesting:
-Gooey - not extraordinarily useful for CAP itself (average physical defense and very few faster attackers are not already countered by our power), but I do like the support it provides for Lucario for a late-game sweep. It's less overall useful overall, but has a niche that specifically supports our core.
-Regenerator - Considering we chose the less defensive stat spread, this could be useful for those who still want CAP to be more defensive and allows it many more switch ins vs aegislash. I worry it might overshadow analytic though.
Other options that I think are interesting:
-Gooey - not extraordinarily useful for CAP itself (average physical defense and very few faster attackers are not already countered by our power), but I do like the support it provides for Lucario for a late-game sweep. It's less overall useful overall, but has a niche that specifically supports our core.
-Regenerator - Considering we chose the less defensive stat spread, this could be useful for those who still want CAP to be more defensive and allows it many more switch ins vs aegislash. I worry it might overshadow analytic though.
I want to stress some abilities that should NOT happen:
Poison Heal: While I supported it for the primary ability, it would become a terrible choice alongside Analytic. Poison Heal coupled with 100/80/100 bulk and solid 95 speed would basically take Gliscor's stalling capabilities and superpower them. Poison Heal would also effectively make the blobs unable to touch CAP with 101 HP Substitutes combined with Poison Heal healing the small amount of damage from Seismic Toss.
Regenerator: Like Poison Heal, this has potential to completely overshadow Analytic. With excellent bulk and attack power, Regenerator would become a godsend for CAP. Which is NOT what we want in a Secondary ability discussion. It would introduce an entirely different, and almost unarguably better, role for the CAP. Analytic comes first.
Natural Cure: This CAP is supposed to be threatened by Chansey/Blissey. What should happen is that the CAP should be complete and utter bait for them to switch in. The blobs should fear nothing about switching in and fear almost nothing about staying in. So, why would Natural Cure be a bad thing? Simple; it makes it so the CAP has no fear of Toxic, a main source of damage from the blobs. Furthermore, it does little for our core. The CAP already immune to burn and Lucario is immune to Toxic in return. While Latias is bothered by both, it really doesn't stop it from doing its job, especially if it runs Healing Wish. CAP doesn't really have business trying to absorb paralysis, as many paralysis spreaders, Thundurus in particular, shit on CAP. Motor Drive or Lightning Rod would be better for paralysis absorption.
Poison Heal: While I supported it for the primary ability, it would become a terrible choice alongside Analytic. Poison Heal coupled with 100/80/100 bulk and solid 95 speed would basically take Gliscor's stalling capabilities and superpower them. Poison Heal would also effectively make the blobs unable to touch CAP with 101 HP Substitutes combined with Poison Heal healing the small amount of damage from Seismic Toss.
Regenerator: Like Poison Heal, this has potential to completely overshadow Analytic. With excellent bulk and attack power, Regenerator would become a godsend for CAP. Which is NOT what we want in a Secondary ability discussion. It would introduce an entirely different, and almost unarguably better, role for the CAP. Analytic comes first.
Natural Cure: This CAP is supposed to be threatened by Chansey/Blissey. What should happen is that the CAP should be complete and utter bait for them to switch in. The blobs should fear nothing about switching in and fear almost nothing about staying in. So, why would Natural Cure be a bad thing? Simple; it makes it so the CAP has no fear of Toxic, a main source of damage from the blobs. Furthermore, it does little for our core. The CAP already immune to burn and Lucario is immune to Toxic in return. While Latias is bothered by both, it really doesn't stop it from doing its job, especially if it runs Healing Wish. CAP doesn't really have business trying to absorb paralysis, as many paralysis spreaders, Thundurus in particular, shit on CAP. Motor Drive or Lightning Rod would be better for paralysis absorption.
Intimidate is a great choice for a second ability, as it allows us to switch into physical attacks from Aegislash, Talonflame, and Azumarill more easily.
Infiltrator is not a good idea. Not becuase it doesn't do what we want it to do, it's because we need to counter sub toxic aegislash. Checking that off during the secondary ability discussion doesn't help us, becuase either most people wont run it, or it'll overshadow analytic.
Other feedback:
Cursed Body: While a bit haxy, it fits nicely into what CAP wants to do while still being inferior to analytic. I support this.
Clear Body/White Smoke: While the secondary option should be lesser used, these two would get absolutely no use. Contrary and Shield Dust are superior options.
Cloud Nine: I don't see where this really fits into our core besides Excadrill, who would outspeed us (unless we invest) anyways.
Flame Body: I'd rather see Mummy (a lot of our threats are ability reliant *cough* huge power *cough*) as a more reliable but less powerful alternative. Nonetheless, flame body would work.
Immunity/Natural Cure/Marvel Scale : Counters a specific move on a specific pokemon that we should be dealing with at a more useful stage.
Motor Drive/Lightning Rod: All this does it help us against things that should be threatening us (besides thunderbolt gengar.)
Rattled/Weak Armor: These are suggested for the exact same reason I suggested gooey, however, boosting our speed instead. They may eclipse analytic, 135 SpAtk at +1 speed is pretty scary.
Water Absorb: And why do we need to check water types?
Other feedback:
Cursed Body: While a bit haxy, it fits nicely into what CAP wants to do while still being inferior to analytic. I support this.
Clear Body/White Smoke: While the secondary option should be lesser used, these two would get absolutely no use. Contrary and Shield Dust are superior options.
Cloud Nine: I don't see where this really fits into our core besides Excadrill, who would outspeed us (unless we invest) anyways.
Flame Body: I'd rather see Mummy (a lot of our threats are ability reliant *cough* huge power *cough*) as a more reliable but less powerful alternative. Nonetheless, flame body would work.
Immunity/Natural Cure/Marvel Scale : Counters a specific move on a specific pokemon that we should be dealing with at a more useful stage.
Motor Drive/Lightning Rod: All this does it help us against things that should be threatening us (besides thunderbolt gengar.)
Rattled/Weak Armor: These are suggested for the exact same reason I suggested gooey, however, boosting our speed instead. They may eclipse analytic, 135 SpAtk at +1 speed is pretty scary.
Water Absorb: And why do we need to check water types?
The reason I suggested Weak Armor is that it gives CAP the chance to switch in on a resisted hit and out-speed the opponent which is good for taking out checks and counters to Lucario (and Latias to a lesser extent), but also has a drawback of making it susceptible to priority. This weakness is important because it means that running Weak Armor over Analytic gives CAP the ability to weaken a lot of things so that Lucario can sweep later, but also reduces its longevity which would change its role in the core. Additionally, it can help in giving CAP a surprise chance at taking out one of its own threats if the opponent tries to switch.
Support:
Infiltrator is a given. Can't really expand on reasoning since everyone has gotten to it.
Lightningrod is another ability I think would benefit CAP18 in giving it a Special Attack boost. However, it seems to specific, only drawing Electric moves to CAP18. We're focusing on Aegislash here, not Thundurus nor Jolteon. In addition, if we are aiming at making CAP18 threatened by Rotom-W, an ability that benefits from Electric moves would undermine our concept
Rattled grants a good speed boost to CAP18 and stays within a range of our concept of countering Aegislash. Given that we take on a ShadowBall Aegi we can get a rather sufficient boost that can aid in handling the rest of the opposing team better.
Marvel Scale grants CAP18 a Defense boost when intoxicated by SubToxic Aegi. Our concept was to focus on Power and Bulk. Analytic promotes Power, while Marvel Scale promotes Bulk, physical-wise.
Contrary allows us to boost a stat from an otherwise bad situation. However, this would require us to run mixed, which was the contradicting argument to the last ability discussion that mentioned Contrary.
Abilities that promote Bulk or Speed (pick one): Pick between survival against attacks that allow CAP18 to dish out more, or speed to deliver those attacks before our opponents can set up or attack.
Against:
Gooey may not be the most appealing ability. CAP18 should threaten Talonflame, and the bird is definitely a speedy Pokemon. However, it's speedy enough that it'll probably need two contact hits to get its speed lower than CAP18's, which doesn't sound too appealing.
Water Absorb is going against our concept and threats. If we to be countered by Bulky Water types, why should we benefit from their attacks?
Clear Body: White Smoke sounds a bit Flavorful, so let's pretend we're only considering Clear Body :)
Clear Body prevents opponents from lowering our stats. In this metagame, I don't see much of stat-lowering moves besides the status effects of burn and paralysis, so it's a very limited ability.
Let's focus on the abilities that would give CAP18 better handling on Aegislash (jesus, damn puns) and Ground targets.
Infiltrator is a given. Can't really expand on reasoning since everyone has gotten to it.
Lightningrod is another ability I think would benefit CAP18 in giving it a Special Attack boost. However, it seems to specific, only drawing Electric moves to CAP18. We're focusing on Aegislash here, not Thundurus nor Jolteon. In addition, if we are aiming at making CAP18 threatened by Rotom-W, an ability that benefits from Electric moves would undermine our concept
Rattled grants a good speed boost to CAP18 and stays within a range of our concept of countering Aegislash. Given that we take on a ShadowBall Aegi we can get a rather sufficient boost that can aid in handling the rest of the opposing team better.
Marvel Scale grants CAP18 a Defense boost when intoxicated by SubToxic Aegi. Our concept was to focus on Power and Bulk. Analytic promotes Power, while Marvel Scale promotes Bulk, physical-wise.
Contrary allows us to boost a stat from an otherwise bad situation. However, this would require us to run mixed, which was the contradicting argument to the last ability discussion that mentioned Contrary.
Abilities that promote Bulk or Speed (pick one): Pick between survival against attacks that allow CAP18 to dish out more, or speed to deliver those attacks before our opponents can set up or attack.
Against:
Gooey may not be the most appealing ability. CAP18 should threaten Talonflame, and the bird is definitely a speedy Pokemon. However, it's speedy enough that it'll probably need two contact hits to get its speed lower than CAP18's, which doesn't sound too appealing.
Water Absorb is going against our concept and threats. If we to be countered by Bulky Water types, why should we benefit from their attacks?
Clear Body: White Smoke sounds a bit Flavorful, so let's pretend we're only considering Clear Body :)
Clear Body prevents opponents from lowering our stats. In this metagame, I don't see much of stat-lowering moves besides the status effects of burn and paralysis, so it's a very limited ability.
Let's focus on the abilities that would give CAP18 better handling on Aegislash (jesus, damn puns) and Ground targets.
Hmm, I don't really get this argument. CAP's stats were already engineered to beat Aegislash, thus with or without Analytic it should come on top, even if the opponent is running SubToxic (granted, it'll take some damage but it's not that it won't happen for the other sets). Infiltrator is good not because it enables CAP to beat Aegislash (it already does), but because it may lead the opponent to misplays assuming one or the another ability. If he predicts Infiltrator and goes to a special wall, he risks getting it weakened to the point it's not usable anymore thanks to the Analytic boost. If instead it predicts Analytic and wants to go for some Substitute shenanigan, it may lose Aegi outright. I don't think we'll see Infiltrator outclassing Analytic any time soon (and thus becoming the prevalent ability); however, the mere chance of it being available on CAP can force the Aegislash user into some (minor, but still relevant) mindgames. Which is a great proposition for a secondary ability: it does contribute to CAP, albeit not in a game-breaking or incredibly substantial way as Volt Absorb did for the last one.
As Analytic is an offensive ability, i think a defensive counterpart could be worth looking into.
Marvel Scale and Shield Dust are two good abilities already been suggested that are not too special but allows a player to create a more defensive variant of CAP18. There's no guarantee CAP18 will be statused or that the secondary ability will proc in the first place. Filter is another defensive ability which would allow us to make a dent in any ground types we would like to threaten.
I would like to mention Shed Skin again since it seems like it's got lost in my earlier post. It allows us to deal with toxic, para and sleep on a semi-reliable basis, so CAP18 would still be affected by status until it wears off. This isn't as narrow as immunity, a full blown poison resist seems too much considering we need to be threatened by the blobs. Immunity would give those only seismic toss to hurt us with, if they carry it.
Shed Skin is also not as reliable as natural cure. However that has it's own drawn backs, in the fact that it causes us to switch. If we switch on SubToxic Aegislash we'd hurt our core - not ideal. Switching out to cure any status from any pokemon would hurt the core on the whole, as someone else would have to take a hit when they come in. So Shed Skin allows CAP18 to take a defensive stance and remain on the field, yet still be effected by status for an undetermined amount of turns. And again, I have to add we would need to be careful when it comes to movepools or else it could become a formidable CM+Rest wall.
Marvel Scale and Shield Dust are two good abilities already been suggested that are not too special but allows a player to create a more defensive variant of CAP18. There's no guarantee CAP18 will be statused or that the secondary ability will proc in the first place. Filter is another defensive ability which would allow us to make a dent in any ground types we would like to threaten.
I would like to mention Shed Skin again since it seems like it's got lost in my earlier post. It allows us to deal with toxic, para and sleep on a semi-reliable basis, so CAP18 would still be affected by status until it wears off. This isn't as narrow as immunity, a full blown poison resist seems too much considering we need to be threatened by the blobs. Immunity would give those only seismic toss to hurt us with, if they carry it.
Shed Skin is also not as reliable as natural cure. However that has it's own drawn backs, in the fact that it causes us to switch. If we switch on SubToxic Aegislash we'd hurt our core - not ideal. Switching out to cure any status from any pokemon would hurt the core on the whole, as someone else would have to take a hit when they come in. So Shed Skin allows CAP18 to take a defensive stance and remain on the field, yet still be effected by status for an undetermined amount of turns. And again, I have to add we would need to be careful when it comes to movepools or else it could become a formidable CM+Rest wall.
They way it is right now, CAP18 can reliable hand any aegislash unless it subs on the switch. As you explained, infiltrator creates a mind game that makes handling that situation much easier. However, it's nothing more than a mind game. If the opposing player predicts correctly (or after one switch, as a damage calculator will tell them if we're running analytic or not), we either lose the ability to scare out sub aegislash or the opponent knows they don't have to worry about being nuked. From there, it'll just come down to a situation of whether or not players want to counter sub aegi or not, which we should do regardless of which ability we chose.
Sorry, I don't feel I've articulated my argument very well. Hopefully that makes sense.
Personally I think Filter sounds like a good choice. The CAP has fairly decent bulk, so a defensive set is inevitable, being able to take non STAB SE hits better sounds worthwhile to me.
I see what you are saying with regenerator, but I personally disagree. Analytic and regenerator both perform completely different purposes. Regenerator makes it easier to keep latias and lucario alive while analytic helps remove their checks and counters on the switch. The regenerator idea can make the core just as good while also being able to assist the rest of the team depending on what you choose. Foe example, if your team is very offensive and you need something that can force and punish switches, analytic is your ability of choice. If your team needs a go-to switch-in regenerator can do that.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong, just that they can serve very different t purposes depending on the rest of your team (which everybody seems to forget exists)
I would like to nominate No Competitive Abillity. I just cant see any abillity except for maybe Infiltrator that will not overshadow Analytic as a abillity, threaten any pokemon that we cant already threaten, or be so situational to the point where its just not worth using. Tbh out of all of the pokemon DetroitLolCat said that Infiltrator will do well aganist, the only one I see that happening with is Gliscor, and we are already SE aganist it, infact its not even on the threats list. SubToxic Aegislash is really not that big of a deal because we have Lucario in the core, which people seem to be forgetting is part steel type. We have invested enough Special Bulk in CAP18 if we need to defend ourselves from its shadow ball anyways. And i honestly dont know where you guys get the feeling that Mawile and Azumarill are constantly using substitute, because I have never seen either of those 2 use the move ever.
Seeing as how CAP 18 has decent defensive stats, I feel a couple of secondary abilities I feel would be great but wouldn't overshadow analytic.
The first one is rough skin which I find interesting because it punishes any pokemon that makes contact with CAP 18 by taking 1/8 of their health and may be a good defensive ability but it may stray too much from the concept so idk if this would be good enough to be CAP 18's second ability.
Pressure, on the other hand, stalls out pp on moves such as toxic and recover which could be important against key threats such as toxic sub aegislash and assuming CAP 18 gets heal bell can stall out toxic and substitute if CAP 18 invests in Special Attack on defensive sets. These two are just what I find interesting.
The first one is rough skin which I find interesting because it punishes any pokemon that makes contact with CAP 18 by taking 1/8 of their health and may be a good defensive ability but it may stray too much from the concept so idk if this would be good enough to be CAP 18's second ability.
Pressure, on the other hand, stalls out pp on moves such as toxic and recover which could be important against key threats such as toxic sub aegislash and assuming CAP 18 gets heal bell can stall out toxic and substitute if CAP 18 invests in Special Attack on defensive sets. These two are just what I find interesting.
I'd like to expand on No Competitive Ability. We're choosing a Secondary Ability on the premise that it will be significantly worse than the Primary Ability, so by definition No Competitive Ability is not a bad decision. The best-case scenario from this discussion is that we tack on a cool niche for CAP18 to better fulfill the concept, while the worst-case scenario is that we end up ruining our Primary Ability by overshadowing it. Essentially, we have a little to gain and a lot to lose from this discussion.
If we choose a Secondary Ability at all, it should be significantly worse than Analytic and extremely specific to the concept. If there's an Ability that does that, then that's what we should choose. If there isn't, and most of the time there isn't, then No Competitive Ability is the best choice. We don't need to grasp at straws because we feel like we need another Ability or suggest something ridiculously overpowered like Poison Heal.
In this specific case, I believe Infiltrator fulfills both of those criteria. Infiltrator lets us near-unconditionally get by three or four Pokemon that we already do pretty well against, and all of those Pokemon (sans Gliscor) are Pokemon we want to threaten. Immunity is okay as well for SubToxic Aegislash, and Rough Skin is also cool for Azumarill and Mega Mawile. Regardless, Infiltrator is probably the only Ability I would take over NCA right now; it really does seem like the perfect Secondary Ability for CAP18.
If we choose a Secondary Ability at all, it should be significantly worse than Analytic and extremely specific to the concept. If there's an Ability that does that, then that's what we should choose. If there isn't, and most of the time there isn't, then No Competitive Ability is the best choice. We don't need to grasp at straws because we feel like we need another Ability or suggest something ridiculously overpowered like Poison Heal.
In this specific case, I believe Infiltrator fulfills both of those criteria. Infiltrator lets us near-unconditionally get by three or four Pokemon that we already do pretty well against, and all of those Pokemon (sans Gliscor) are Pokemon we want to threaten. Immunity is okay as well for SubToxic Aegislash, and Rough Skin is also cool for Azumarill and Mega Mawile. Regardless, Infiltrator is probably the only Ability I would take over NCA right now; it really does seem like the perfect Secondary Ability for CAP18.
Wayan Vistar
formerly Flyhn
Hmm... I accualy find not having a competitive secondary ability to be a last resort option. Also, I'd like to suggest Stench. I think that this ability is partialy viable, yet doesn't overshadow Analytic. Though I still think Infiltrator is the best option so far.
Dry Skin might be interesting as it makes the cap into a usable fire type in a rain team and gets a boosted hydro pump in the rain. and because of our double resist to fire, we still get resisted fire attacks (although now only single resist) its like having all the up sides to dry skin with none of the down, giving the cap a really cool niche on rain teams. But it might overshadow analytic because of hydro pump's boost in accuracy and power as well as recovery and immunity to water. But rain has nerfed this gen so maybe not?
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So far Infiltrator is my favorite, as so many others have said. But for the ssake of discussion, another ability that would be kinda fun, but not as useful as Analytic, is Magician. We all know how prominent Knock Off has become, so pairing this ability with a berry or red card or something could make a surprise set. By stealing an itemfrom a specific threat, CAP could potentially aid in Lucario's sweep
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