• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

CAP 18 CAP 18 - Playtest

Ranger Mike said:
Something I do not believe that we considered when picking analytic is that not everyone is the smartest and don't make obviously switches which analytic banks on because to be quite frank you are not going to be losing a lot speed wars since volkraken is a hit and run wallbreaker kind of like latios, but anyways we were so concerned in not making volkraken broken that we did not really give it that muche of a niche like PttP said he has been very underwhelming. As for the core lucario is just absolute deadweight unless you run sticky web, latias will be the leader, and volkraken will only be your win condition when your playing against a foe who switches a lot, or sets up a ton of subs.
Click to expand...
Yeah lucario is very underwhelming...
Plus, even with sticky web support, I've been seeing a lot of thundurus-I and scarfed landorus-T that it really doesn't help against many opponents.

I'm going to keep messing with Volkraken though, it's a really fun toy, but it's not better than any other slightly gimimcky mon I play with on the normal OU ladder xD
 
Rohep said:
Yeah lucario is very underwhelming...
Click to expand...

really doesn't help against many opponents.
Click to expand...

it's a really fun toy, but it's not better than any other slightly gimimcky mon I play with on the normal OU ladder
Click to expand...

Ltmpx4m.png
 
So I switched my Scarf Volkraken from Analytic to Infiltrator, and immediately reaped the benefits:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/capvolkrakenplaytest-124344932

For those too lazy or unable to view it, the opponent sets up a huge BP chain and accumulates a Nasty Plot, sub, ingrain, and aqua ring, only to be "washed away" (so sorry) by Volkraken's Surf.

Infiltrator is not necessarily > Analytic though, as I'm running a Scarf set and Analytic seldom sees use.

It also shows how Lucario can perform with a bit of prediction.
 
So I originally tried using the core like Volkraken was built to fit into, but I realized that Lucario is just underwhelmed and not that great. Personally I have been using a Landourus in combination with a Bisharp to cover my team's weaknesses a lot better. I still have a Latias on my team, but it isn't really helping my team other than the occasional defog that also clears my hazards. I think we pulled another Voodoom, because this core really isn't spectacular.
 
Unfortunately Volkraken has the potential to be the weakest CAP to date. The comparisons with the unreleased Volcanion are inevitable since both are slow, bulky specially offensive fire/water types that lack recovery, except Volcanion has a much better ability and movepool.

I mentioned several times that in order to succeed in its mission, i.e. being able to turn two mid/low-OU into high-OU status, Volkraken needed to be high-OU worthy itself.
Can we honestly say that Volkraken is comparable to the likes of Conkeldurr, Dragonite and Scizor? I think not. It's closer to niche OU pokemon such as Goodra.

Being able to beat key OU threats doesn't necessarily equal being a high OU threat in itself - as it's been said in a vacuum Vokraken does a great job at countering what it was meant to counter, but the rest of the metagame is more than capable of making its life hell.

I believe the biggest mistake that was made was not giving it Recover. That alone would have made it more balanced, and the whole "But with Recover it could beat the pink blobs!" and "It's a pivot!" arguments have never sat well with me.

Another major issue is the designed core members themselves. On one hand, their flaws are severe enough that a single team mate can't magically solve them, on the other hand neither of them is exactly meant to be part of a 3-pokemon core. Latias is a glue pokemon used as a Defogger, and by definition "glue" pokemon are picked last, after the team's main core has been estabilished, while Lucario is a lategame sweeper, who needs the entire team to support it, not just one or two pokemon.
I'm not saying that a pokemon that needs an entire team to support it is necessarily bad, because Mega-Pinsir is A+ rank and it definitely needs no less than 4 team members to work (entry hazards, spinner/defogger, something that kills Talonflame and a wallbreaker that deals with physical walls).

The fact that most people using Volkraken aren't really bothering using Lucario and Latias only cements my thoughts on this issue.

But perhaps Volkraken itself isn't as weak as I think, perhaps it does have better team mates that can unlock its full potential, meaning it turned out to be Voodoom V2. I'll try experementing and see if I can find them.
 
Been using Volkraken myself recently and I have to say, the specs analytic set has been saving me in some games. Unfortunately I don't have any really good examples, the only replay I remembered to save (that being http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/capvolkrakenplaytest-124569510 ) featured a rather unconventional ou team and the enemy didn't bring a single fire resist. Not only that but the intended core for the pokemon isn't used! Nonetheless I can say that it decimates anything trying to switch in that isn't immune or quad-resists it. Because of analytic, if the enemy takes more than ~ 58% hp then it will ko on the next hit - which is somewhat easy to accomplish even when it is resisted. I can't really say anything about it in other contexts, especially since I haven't been using it in a core with Lucario and Latias but I have been having some success when using it with Chesnaught as it has decent synergy with typing - but if that's the case then that means 2 things:
1. Breloom may have been a better pick anyway since Chesnaught isn't great in ou (it isn't even ou at all!)
2. Whoops, Voodoom time.
I'll see if I can find a better replay using the same team, and edit this post later if it either turns out that I can't find proof of its use with grass/fighting types or I can get a better example of its raw power.
 
Onoret said:
Been using Volkraken myself recently and I have to say, the specs analytic set has been saving me in some games. Unfortunately I don't have any really good examples, the only replay I remembered to save (that being http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/capvolkrakenplaytest-124569510 ) featured a rather unconventional ou team and the enemy didn't bring a single fire resist. Not only that but the intended core for the pokemon isn't used! Nonetheless I can say that it decimates anything trying to switch in that isn't immune or quad-resists it. Because of analytic, if the enemy takes more than ~ 58% hp then it will ko on the next hit - which is somewhat easy to accomplish even when it is resisted. I can't really say anything about it in other contexts, especially since I haven't been using it in a core with Lucario and Latias but I have been having some success when using it with Chesnaught as it has decent synergy with typing - but if that's the case then that means 2 things:
1. Breloom may have been a better pick anyway since Chesnaught isn't great in ou (it isn't even ou at all!)
2. Whoops, Voodoom time.
I'll see if I can find a better replay using the same team, and edit this post later if it either turns out that I can't find proof of its use with grass/fighting types or I can get a better example of its raw power.
Click to expand...
I've been using it with chesnaught too; unlike breloom it is defensive and can take physical ground and rock hits for volkraken, along with some electric hits. However, I've seen a lot of flying types and lati@s so chesnaught doesn't do much except set up some spikes. I think I'll try breloom, but it can't take powerful ground and rock hits, even though they're resisted.
 
Rohep said:
I've been using it with chesnaught too; unlike breloom it is defensive and can take physical ground and rock hits for volkraken, along with some electric hits. However, I've seen a lot of flying types and lati@s so chesnaught doesn't do much except set up some spikes. I think I'll try breloom, but it can't take powerful ground and rock hits, even though they're resisted.
Click to expand...

What about combinations similar to those of the original core? I've decided to try out Cobalion + Flygon as teammates for Volkraken.
 
I hate to say it, but I think Volkraken has failed its concept. I have not seen the Luke-Latias-Volkraken core too often on the ladder, and a few players I have talked to said that the core isn't a good one. Don't get me wrong- the building process throughout this project was excellent- we had goals in mind, and we learned a lot about what goes into cores. It's just that our final product seems to be underwhelming. Volkraken-Latias seems to be a good duo, but that is not what we planned for, since Lucario is out of that equation. Kinda like how Voodoom initially failed its concept (but fulfilled it another way), I was worried that the core we chose would not work, and it really doesn't.
Perhaps another discussion can stem from this- what should we replace Lucario with in the core, if anything?
 
wh0sy0urpapa said:
Perhaps another discussion can stem from this- what should we replace Lucario with in the core, if anything?
Click to expand...
someone should give terrakion a try. it's much faster than lucario (alleviating what someone said about the core being too slow) and hits much harder as well.

lucario in gen 6 (minus mega lucario) is just not that good of a pokémon, unfortunately.
 
While the majority of the people in this thread have been finding out that Lucario and Volkraken are the weak members of the core and that Latias pulls the most weight, I myself have found the complete opposite. Time and time again, my Latias seemed to miss out on important KOs. Once Lucario sets up a swords dance, he generally does quite well (and he really helps with Chansey). With a scarf slapped on, Volkraken remedies its speed issue and still hits very hard, while still being a great switch in for fire type attacks aimed at Lucario.

I have personally found that an offensive core of Lucario, Volkraken, and Landorus works quite well. Hazards haven't been that prominent for whatever reason, and sheer force Landorus hits so much harder while still having that ground immunity that Lucario and Volkraken love to be paired with. Sand teams also seem to be fairly common, and I've seen way more dragon dancing Tyranitars than I've even seen in my normal OU play. And the sad thing is, after a single dance, these Ttars/Mega Ttars can wreck the entire core as it was intended.

I started out the playtest using Volkraken more or less as a solo Pokemon, but that didn't work out terribly well. I then went to use the intended core, and it worked okay, but not great. After switching Latias to Landorus, however, my team seemed to improve a fair amount. Sure, Latias can defog, but if you want an offensive core then it seems better to go with a more offensive member and leave hazard removal in different hands. Of course, feel free to disagree with me. Overall, I don't think Volkraken is bad. I think Volkraken pairs well with either Lucario or Latias, but all three of them together as a core seems to be lackluster. This might be because the playtest players are prepared to deal with the intended core, or because the intended core has exploitable flaws, or maybe a combination of both.
 
Cap 18 feels like a dead gimmick that lost its meaning.

Not going to lie. The core concept was never going to work. Forcing the player to use 3 specific pokes in a dubious core based manor was doomed to fail spectacularly even since the drawing board. The only use I've seen this thing able to do reliably is act as a thermo-nuke with its 120 power attacks with stab/ability boost/choice specs to do some nasty revenge killing and then swapping out.......
Sadly the poor thing dies of faster then a fruit fly due to its low speed and it's meh Defence stats.

It could have worked if it had better bulk((speed is a no, no due to analytic))
 
Skybluejay said:
Cap 18 feels like a dead gimmick that lost its meaning.

Not going to lie. The core concept was never going to work. Forcing the player to use 3 specific pokes in a dubious core based manor was doomed to fail spectacularly even since the drawing board. The only use I've seen this thing able to do reliably is act as a thermo-nuke with its 120 power attacks with stab/ability boost/choice specs to do some nasty revenge killing and then swapping out.......
Sadly the poor thing dies of faster then a fruit fly due to its low speed and it's meh Defence stats.

It could have worked if it had better bulk((speed is a no, no due to analytic))
Click to expand...
Analytic is mainly for switches, not going last. With 95 speed, you're not gonna be breaking any walls with analytic boosted attacks unless they switch in. I don't think more bulk would have helped it more because you would have still gotten people bringing things like scarfed landorus-T and thunudurs-I to revenge kill it...
I think the main problem with it is the same problem lucario has this gen: bad speed (for an offensive threat).
I agree with whatever posted said it should have gotten recover, or at least magic guard: the rocks weakness, meh STAB coverage, and bad speed makes it an iffy option.
 
With Latias, I've found that a Life Orb is pretty much a necessity on the offensive Defog set; it misses out on too many important 1HKOs and 2HKOs otherwise. Draco Meteor is its best attack, but I'm still not completely convinced on what its best options are for its other two moves. Psyshock leaves Latias walled by many Steel-types, but Thunderbolt just isn't strong enough to deal with most of those Steel-types before they KO you (e.g. Bisharp, Aegislash). Roost/Recover is nice to heal off residual damage, but it can be difficult to find a chance to use it. Healing Wish can be a lifesaver, but I'm not sure how useful it is relative to self-recovery.

For Swords Dance Lucario, I've found most success using Close Combat/Extreme Speed/Ice Punch. Earthquake leaves it walled by Gengar, while Crunch is really only useful only against Aegislash and Latios/Latias. Ice Punch allows Lucario to net important KOs against the Pokemon who most threaten the core, such as Garchomp and the genies.
 
Elite Lord Sigma said:
With Latias, I've found that a Life Orb is pretty much a necessity on the offensive Defog set; it misses out on too many important 1HKOs and 2HKOs otherwise. Draco Meteor is its best attack, but I'm still not completely convinced on what its best options are for its other two moves. Psyshock leaves Latias walled by many Steel-types, but Thunderbolt just isn't strong enough to deal with most of those Steel-types before they KO you (e.g. Bisharp, Aegislash). Roost/Recover is nice to heal off residual damage, but it can be difficult to find a chance to use it. Healing Wish can be a lifesaver, but I'm not sure how useful it is relative to self-recovery.

For Swords Dance Lucario, I've found most success using Close Combat/Extreme Speed/Ice Punch. Earthquake leaves it walled by Gengar, while Crunch is really only useful only against Aegislash and Latios/Latias. Ice Punch allows Lucario to net important KOs against the Pokemon who most threaten the core, such as Garchomp and the genies.
Click to expand...
The genies and garchomp both outspeed lucario :/ Unless you're talking about defensive lando-t, which I've seen a lot of. And with latias, I like Healing Wish because I've seen a lot of pursuit aegislash trying to trap it, but I agree with you about its small movepool options.
 
First of All I've found Volkraken to be an exceptional scarf user and paired up with infiltrator it absolutely wrecks those 'people' who like to use baton pass teams. The main reason for scarf is due to its slightly underaverage base 95 speed which slightly cripples it in the standard ou metagame, another reason is because I myself am particularly fond of scarf destiny bond no matter how weird that sounds. Two other sets were mentioned. They were an AV set and a trick room set. The av set needs not much explanation(basically a slightly more offensive goodra) whereas the trickroom set was thought up when I saw a Victini set with trick room and v create. The set here basically allows more flexibility for people who want to use slower pokemon in a faster meta and by using things like tyranitar but I doubt that needs much explanation. Finally, I can safely say that Volkraken could be a solid ou pokemon as long as it had a wider movepool(forgot to mention). Thats all from me I guess...#blamealeuser if I put this in the wrong thread
 
alexthechud said:
First of All I've found Volkraken to be an exceptional scarf user and paired up with infiltrator it absolutely wrecks those 'people' who like to use baton pass teams. The main reason for scarf is due to its slightly underaverage base 95 speed which slightly cripples it in the standard ou metagame, another reason is because I myself am particularly fond of scarf destiny bond no matter how weird that sounds. Two other sets were mentioned. They were an AV set and a trick room set. The av set needs not much explanation(basically a slightly more offensive goodra) whereas the trickroom set was thought up when I saw a Victini set with trick room and v create. The set here basically allows more flexibility for people who want to use slower pokemon in a faster meta and by using things like tyranitar but I doubt that needs much explanation. Finally, I can safely say that Volkraken could be a solid ou pokemon as long as it had a wider movepool(forgot to mention). Thats all from me I guess...#blamealeuser if I put this in the wrong thread
Click to expand...
Volkraken itself doesn't learn Trick Room (to my knowledge) and it doesn't get a speed lowering move so it's not really comparable to victini. The AV set i've heard a lot of talk about but I think its main niche its specs boosted analytic wall breaking, a much more powerful starmie. The scarf set really seems to me like its outclassed by keldeo, which has a rock resist, secret sword, and better speed. Infiltrator is what I've been using, with a subtorment set, but even that doesn't work because on subtorment sets you generally want protect and a mono attack, and both fire and water mono attacks aren't that great in this tier, so I have to forgo protect...
I definitely agree with you about the movepool thing though. This is the first CAP I've played with and it's underwhelming, but fun. Hopefully future CAPs are as fun, but more viable! Wish I got into this CAP in gen 5 too lmao

Also, right thread.
 
The real issue is Volkraken's type. We went into the threats discussion to see what we needed to counter to support our core, and we ended having to cover too much bases with a typing that just couldn't do it. The TL (or whatever we call him/her now) should be able to rearrange the order of the process if required by virtue of the concept, and in this case, we needed to do threats discussion BEFORE anything else.
 
FireArrow said:
The real issue is Volkraken's type. We went into the threats discussion to see what we needed to counter to support our core, and we ended having to cover too much bases with a typing that just couldn't do it. The TL (or whatever we call him/her now) should be able to rearrange the order of the process if required by virtue of the concept, and in this case, we needed to do threats discussion BEFORE anything else.
Click to expand...

The problem here is that Threats can't be considered in a vacuum from type. Imagine trying to have a threats discussion where we're all assuming different weaknesses / resistances in our mental calculations of what CAP needs to do. Assuming none means people assuming unrealistic, hyperinflated stats in all areas. Typing also establishes how powerful our own STABs will be, which is important to know if your primary offense is going to be one of either Poison Jab/Knock Off/Foul Play/Sludge Wave/Dark Pulse or Fire Blast/Flare Blitz/Hydro Pump/Waterfall.
 
Rohep said:
The genies and garchomp both outspeed lucario :/ Unless you're talking about defensive lando-t, which I've seen a lot of. And with latias, I like Healing Wish because I've seen a lot of pursuit aegislash trying to trap it, but I agree with you about its small movepool options.
Click to expand...

I was talking mainly about hitting opponents on the switch, but I've seen so many scarfed Landorus-T in the playtest that outspeeding even that is an issue. Agility would fix Lucario's speed woes, but it can't really hit hard enough without a Swords Dance boost. However, running both moves in a double dancing set is hampered by Lucario's severe 4MSS and poor defensive stats, something that is not nearly as much of an issue for something like Zygarde or Terrakion.
 
Elite Lord Sigma said:
I was talking mainly about hitting opponents on the switch, but I've seen so many scarfed Landorus-T in the playtest that outspeeding even that is an issue. Agility would fix Lucario's speed woes, but it can't really hit hard enough without a Swords Dance boost. However, running both moves in a double dancing set is hampered by Lucario's severe 4MSS and poor defensive stats, something that is not nearly as much of an issue for something like Zygarde or Terrakion.
Click to expand...
Yeah with Lucario's low speed, you can't hurt revenge killers unless you predict them to switch in on a SD instead of just sacking whatever mon the opponent has out already.
I like terrakion a bit better than zygarde, which is kind of underwhelming in OU due to the huge dragon nerf. Terrakion is destroyed by aegislash, which volkraken handles. Zygarde is messed up by toigekiss, which can paralyze both latias and volkraken effectively (won't like a specs power gem though :]). I'm thinking of trying latios/terrakion/volkraken.
 
So SubWisp Volkraken has been working out pretty well, since Volkraken can force switches. It might seem that Sub goes against Analytic, but it helps vs faster foes, who now have to take a analytic hit thanks to the sub, which hurts even resists. Its kind of interesting - might play around with SubToxic instead, but Wisp helps vs things like Bisharp and M-Mawile, letting you burn before eating a Sucker Punch. The set I use runs 200 Speed, which outspeed Adamant Excadrill (honestly though, I copied the speed spread from Kyu-B, whom has the same speed stat as Volkraken. It also helps that Volkraken can destroy Adamant Excadrill with its STABs). I've been using it outside of the core, although still use Latias alongside it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top